#if s9 doesn't line up with what i have in mind for him i have a backup plan

[sealrock]

my newest weird guy still doesn't have a name but he has a cute face. and cute sharp teeth.

[angelsdean]

desitel feelings / love timeline (2 me)

DEAN:

immediate attraction in s4 (hello he has eyes!)

s4 - 5, going from allies to friends, crushing hard and shooting his shot / flirting, but all of it goes over cas's head

s6 betrayal / cas's s7 death: when he starts realizing that the way he feels abt cas is Different and More than just a crush / friendship. bobby and sam not reacting the same way to cas's betrayal and death really starts to get the gears turning. then when bobby dies, dean also realizes his grief over cas is different from his grief over bobby. (also the keeping his coat, carrying it with them in every new car all throughout s7. like that man was in Love-love.)

s8: purgatory solidifies dean's feelings. all dean can think about for a year is finding cas, saving cas. he prays to him every night. his mind is just a skipping record of cas, cas, cas. i think by this point he's accepted his romantic feelings for cas. and by the end of s8 he was ready to tell cas how he felt in the crypt. he changes "love" to "need" (which imo is MORE insane and vulnerable actually) and then dean perceives cas's actions after the crypt as a rejection of dean's feelings). meanwhile, cas has not yet even realized his own feelings for dean are romantic love yet, more on that in a minute.

s9 - s12 imo are dean grappling with the fact that his love is unrequited and trying to live with that and maybe move on (drowley summer of love).

s13 -s14 : first the widowers arc of it all. dean realizing no matter what, cas was IT for him. there's never going to be anyone else for him. he doesn't want anyone else. dean accepting that cas is effectively his life partner and he's fine with them staying platonic (bc he still thinks cas doesn't feel the same way). dean stops hooking up. dean is content with the family unit they have made for themselves.

s15: dean grappling with the knowledge of chuck's manipulation over the years. dean questioning what's even real ("is his love for cas even real?") cas asserting that they are real. divorce arc. destiel miscommunication at its finest. dean once again thinking cas doesn't care for him the way he cares for cas. dean nearly losing cas again in purgatory and deciding to put his heart on the line (was going to confess before cas cut him off). then---cas's "i love you." dean overwhelmed in the moment. dean still not sure what cas's words mean until cas is taken by the empty and he processes the speech and declaration. and then he realizes--cas was in love with him. it was mutual. they could've had it. they could've been together for years. the one thing they both wanted---

CAS

immediate attraction in s4 (hello he has eyes! many eyes in fact!)

s4 - 5: going from allies to friends. cas remembering what it's like to FEEL again ("for the first time") after his millionth lobotomy. dean re-awakening those feelings, both for humanity at large and for dean specifically. but cas doesn't have a name for these feelings yet. he attributes them to his bond with dean / assumes most people feel like this about dean.

s6 - 8: cas largely still attributing his feeling for dean to their unique bond. cas putting the mission first. cas also dealing with his own guilt over his failures. not a lot of time for him to process his feelings for dean.

s9: cas has his italicized "oh" moment. i think it's a combination of being human and for the first time all the angel stuff isn't there, he can't attribute his feelings to their "bond." he's rooted in his body for the first time, really in-tune with his physical reactions too. i think early s9 is when he starts to realize his feelings for dean are different but he's still not quite putting a name to them. then metatron calls him out on those feelings (his snarky knowing "he's in love...with humanity") and then dean dying really solidify cas's feelings. he is now aware.

aaaaaand then s10 - 12 is him grappling with those feelings at the same time that dean is really starting to accept that cas doesn't feel the same and is trying to accept that they'll be nothing but platonic and move on. so that's why you get stuff like dean calling cas their "brother" (he's trying to be ok with this) while cas looks sick to his stomach bc he is just now really accepting and processing the fact that he's in romantic love with dean. gotta love that classic destiel miscommunication, never being on the same page at the same time.

by s13 he's accepted he's in love and is now thinking it's one sided and this is all they'll ever be. he's also still kinda avoiding it all throughout the later seasons, putting the Mission first again, leaving more often, focusing on jack stuff. really just putting his feelings on the back burner.

then s15. just like i said in the dean bullet point, the divorce arc stuff is more classic miscommunication. cas so badly wants dean to ask him to stay. dean so badly wants cas to stop leaving. they both need to just have one good conversation about all of this. anyways, the "i love you." truly i think mr. avoidant cas would have continued to keep his feelings for dean to himself perhaps forever, had it not been a life or death situation where he realized telling dean his feelings would trigger the empty deal. but he does tell him. and my personal headcanon is that when he does tell him he gets hit with a wave of feeling from dean (along with the love in his eyes) that basically confirms to cas that dean actually has felt the same way all this time. and also, i think cas has partially known for a while but let his own self doubt and insecurities convince him that dean couldn't possibly feel the same.

Additionally: i do enjoy another late seasons variation, where BOTH of them have a mutual awareness of each other's feelings, but they both let insecurities and circumstances convince them it's not the right time, or they don't deserve to have this. they keep putting off talking abt this thing between them because there's always another apocalypse or big bad. because saving the world always comes before their own personal desires and happiness. so they keep putting it off until it's too late, until there's no time left. by s15 they're both feeling desperate. it's the end. they both feel they need to say something. dean tries in The Trap. cas finally does in Despair. and then there's just no time left. it's over. they never got to have it. (YET. because their story ain't over!)

anyways, i'm multitudes girlie and can enjoy many different interpretations, esp in fics, but this is my main destiel + feelings interpretation for when i'm watching the show and engaging with canon.

TLDR: they both start Feeling things for each other immediately. dean realizes these feelings are romantic love and puts that name to them first around late s6/s7. dean Accepts these feeling around s8. while cas has his realization that these intense feelings are romantic love around s9. and accepts them at some point between s10 - 12ish.

[samwhump]

a (very inexhaustive, wincest-heavy) sam whump reclist

@transfemmesam asked me for Sam whump recs a few days ago, and I've had other requests in the same vein before (I can't imagine why.../s) so I thought I would throw this together, since these authors deserve all of the love and support for their contributions to our li'l fandom corner.

like I mentioned in the title, this is not at all a comprehensive list; I have at least ~200 more fics in my to-read queue that could thematically fit here, but alas, I have stupid shit like a job and a body and a dog to take care of, so. I'm always happy to get recs along these lines, so if you notice anything important missing, hit me UP. (and don't take any omissions as any specific commentary by me -- it's likely I just haven't had the chance to read it yet, haha.)

disclaimers:

some (most, honestly) of these contain potentially triggering and dark content, including but not limited to rape/noncon, torture, and suicidal attempts & ideation. I have tried to note content warnings where applicable, and most of the works are hosted on ao3, so the tags should have most of the information you need to make an informed decision. that being said, tread with caution. all of the summaries provided are from the original author, with warnings added after by me.

the list is in alphabetical order and separated into wincest and gen categories. a lot of the gen is also focused on the sam & dean relationship, because...I am what I am. and what I am a sucker for these two dipshits. there is also a brief section at the end with a few fics that don't fit into either category.

gen

All That Goes Unspoken by amnesiawife:

A case forces Sam to confront something long kept buried. (Set nebulously in season 12.)

CW: discussions of past rape/noncon, victim blaming

Beneath the Trees 'verse by Lise (5 works total, starting with Beneath the Trees, Where Nobody Sees):

Sam doesn't go to Stanford. Everything goes downhill from there.

CW: suicidal ideation

a boy is a cage by ad_castra:

After expelling Gadreel from Sam's body, Dean thinks they're in the clear. If only they were that lucky. // S9 fic wherein Gadreel's grace causes some adverse side-effects in Sam's mind.

CW: past referenced rape/noncon, body horror

body of proof by Askance (doomcountry):

There are things Sam hasn't told his brother. They're all in the envelope laid on Dean's pillow.

CW: heavy discussion of past rape/noncon

break these bones 'til they're better by redskyatmorning:

After Sam’s torture at the hands of the British Men of Letters, the latest in a long string of violations, he is rescued by Dean and Mary – and forced to ponder his broken relationship with his own body. Months later, when Sam is resurrected and tormented by Lucifer yet again, Dean confronts Mary and Sam gets his revenge against the devil.

catching my death (staring out an open window) by ad_castra:

Sam gazes at the window, catches the faint pink hue tinting the sky. It’s so realistic - he could breathe in the fresh air if he were really here. ----- They got Sam out. Sometimes, just knowing that isn't enough.

CW: implied past rape/noncon

Death of Convenience by WilsonTheMoose:

It should have been easy. Wendigos are no joke but daylight slows them. The weather's been unpredictable though and perfect, idyllic hunts don't exactly stay that way where they're concerned. Or Sam has one card to play and never stops to think that Dean would care if he killed himself.

CW: suicidal ideation, references to suicide

Echoes of Hell by The_Nightbreaker:

It wasn't real. He wasn't in Hell anymore. That's what he tried to tell himself over and over. But two centuries of torture don't disappear in a day. Sam struggles with visions of Hell, fighting to maintain his grip on reality. Dean hates that he can't protect his brother from what isn't real—but curse him if he doesn't try. When the boys stumble on a case with ties to the Devil himself, will they be able to pull themselves together in time to stop the sacrifices? Or will the echoes of Hell finally overtake them? Aka, season 7, but the plot is Hell trauma, not leviathans.

CW: suicidal ideation

Evening Shadows by withthekeyisking:

Sam is hallucinating the monster who tortured him for nearly two centuries, Dean feels like he's failing his brother, and a diner waitress bears witness.

CW: past rape/noncon

Everything Dies Given Time by Lise:

AU from 5.03. Sam discovers something wrong with himself, and learns to live with it. Only a lot less functional.

CW: suicide/temporary character death

The Freedom to Be Loud by jribbing:

It hadn’t occurred to Dean that maybe Sam remembered so much about that little nowhere town because something memorable had happened there.

CW: referenced past rape/noncon

golgotha by redskyatmorning:

There’s a vacancy on the throne of hell, and Sam is desperate enough to save Dean from Michael’s possession to give into the abyssal depths of his own darkness.

Head Space by ameliacareful:

A witch curses Sam leaving him blind, deaf, and bedridden. Left with only the inside of his own head and the occasional touch, Sam begins to unravel.

CW: suicidal ideation

Hiraeth by inkandpaperqwerty:

(n.) a homesickness for a home to which you cannot return, a home which maybe never was; the nostalgia, the yearning, the grief for the lost places of your past "Dean... I made a really big mistake." For a second, Dean actually thought things were going okay. He was out of Hell, Sam agreed to stop drinking demon blood, they had just wrapped up a successful hunt... for once, everything was okay. And then it wasn't. "I overdosed." Not at all.

CW: suicide attempts, suicidal ideation

if i could leave (i would've already left) by serendipity0930:

“I have a mission from God for you,” the Angel whispers to the man. “It is time for you to do what you were born to.” The man’s face twists into a smile, delighted over being chosen by Him, a purpose from God digging into his heart, carving out a place to fester. “Hunt.” ... 05x03 AU where Zachariah is even more determined to keep the brothers apart and hunters are all too willing to take Lucifer's True Vessel off the board for good

CW: referenced suicide

It's A River (But Not In Egypt) by Lise:

He's still a liar. Maybe always has been.

CW: toxic Sam/Lucifer dynamics

Kindred Instruments by PinBitch:

They’re in a tug of war and Sam is the rope. He doesn’t need to be alive for that. OR Sam dies in detox, being flung against the walls of a metal box will do that to you. Dean and Ruby pick up the pieces.

CW: temporary main character death, permanent supporting character death

lazarus trick by katsidhe:

Sam's alive, so everything is gonna be okay. 13.22 coda.

Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence by Lise:

Sam's back. He's in one piece. That's the problem.

CW: self-harm

love is like ghosts by redskyatmorning:

I’m poison, Dean had said instead of I’m sorry. Well, Sam wants to say, what does that make me? What the hell does that make me? (A look into Sam's mind in the aftermath of the Gadreel possession.)

The Other Brother by RadioFriday:

Sam and Adam are pulled from the cage at the same time. Sam is not right, and Adam, stuck as his caretaker, is not pleased.

Oxygen by inkandpaperqwerty:

“Cas! Cas, please! Please, answer me! Cas!” Castiel ignores Dean for several minutes, but then Dean gives him an opening that might help him complete his mission. So, he goes to investigate, and what he finds is a very bloody, nearly dead Sam. Dean tells him where the injuries came from, and Castiel quickly becomes confused. It doesn't make sense, but Dean tries to explain it to him, and slowly... Castiel begins to understand.

CW: suicide attempt

Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc by AmberSock:

Sam waits, kneeling, for his execution. What if Dean hadn't missed?

CW: temporary character death

Safety In Distance by GalaxyThreads and SpiritClusters:

The Mark of Cain is a brand of violence. Sam was an idiot to think that he'd be exempt from it, just because he and Dean are siblings.

sometimes a kind of singing by adi_rotynd:

Sam gets cursed. They're dealing with it. Jack can see souls. That one they're not dealing with quite as well.

CW: past referenced rape/noncon

Soul Windows by GalaxyThreads and Spirit Clusters:

A few months after his birth, Jack learns how to see souls. Then he comes to a realization about the Winchester brothers, Sam in particular, and it's not a pleasant one. (gen)

Starry Night by keepcalmsmile:

Sam attempts suicide-by-monster. Dean tries to help. It sort of works...until it doesn't.

CW: suicide attempts, suicidal ideation

such fragile, broken things by The_Bookkeeper:

Sam wishes that Dean would just get it over with already.

The Tale of Sir Galahad by keepcalmsmile:

Sam once said he could never be clean like Sir Galahad. Dean assumed he was just talking about the demon blood. Turns out, Sam was talking about something else too. WARNING: Extended discussions of the aftermath of rape and childhood sexual abuse (but NO description of the actual events). Happy(ish) ending, but potentially very triggering.

CW: past rape/noncon, mentioned CSA

They Hammered in His Teeth by jribbing:

Sam has a secret.

CW: suicidal ideation

today's troubles (are history tomorrow) by a_good_soldier:

"It's not really something I know how to share," Sam had said. In which Dean figures he ought to help Sam out a bit.

Touch and Go by themegalosaurus:

Tag to 9.19 (Alex Annie Alexis Ann) in which Dean realises why, exactly, Sam is so angry about what happened with Gadreel.

trust fall by ad_castra:

“I’m nothing like you,” Sam hisses. Nevermind relating to the anguish of going it alone. Nevermind that he knows what it is to be strapped down and forcibly cleansed against his will. Sam wonders if these trials are purifying Crowley as well. 

Words Like Glass by broken_cinders:

Dean never figured the cage wouldn't leave a mark. He was prepared for memories, flashbacks, and nightmares. He wasn't expecting the words Sam brought back with him or the way they made him seem just a breath beyond Dean's reach.

Wound and Unwound by fascra:

Sam stops eating spring of his freshman year.

CW: eating disorder

wincest (dean/sam)

Brittle by thecapn:

Sam Winchester has an eating disorder.

CW: eating disorder

Don't You Cry No More by sixtysevenlmpala (schittyfic):

The first time Sam gets badly hurt on a hunt, he doesn’t cry. Dean does.

Fall On Your Knees by dollylux:

Sam doesn't quite make it home on the last day of school before winter break.

The Fall Will Probably Kill You by killabeez:

Set between 7.04 and the aftermath of 7.07. Dean is not as okay as he'd like you to think. Neither is Sam.

CW: self-harm

Feels so good to feel again by Trojie:

The pain keeps Lucifer at bay, at least to start with.

Follow In Your Form by withthekeyisking:

Sam is hallucinating Lucifer in the wake of Cas bringing his Hell Wall crashing down. To make matters worse, it seems like this has his dormant powers flaring back to life.

Last Temptation by merle_p:

Sam is running a fever again, the kind of fever no Ibuprofen or cold compress will bring down, the kind of fever that is eating him up alive, eviscerating him from the inside. He is too hot and too cold and too pale, delirious and shaking, resonating with whatever divine energy the trials are subjecting him to, and Dean is not sure how much longer he can stand to see him be in this state. Because Sam is quite possibly dying, and there is nothing Dean can do to stop it. Because Sam is dying, and he just. Won’t. Shut. Up.

CW: mentioned past rape/noncon

leeches by Anonymous:

Sam discovers a spell to make everybody forget him. He’s convinced it’s for the best. Pre-Stanford.

CW: attempted kidnapping/torture

Make Thick My Blood by themegalosaurus:

“You’re going to kill me, Dean,” Sam says, eventually. And all Dean can say is, “I think I am.” A season 10 AU, set after 10x14 ('The Executioner's Song'). Cas finds a solution that might cure the Mark of Cain; but if they're going to go through with it, Sam has a terrible price to pay.

CW: mentioned past rape/noncon

Prophecy of an Abomination by ashitanoyuki:

Sam is kidnapped by fanatically religious hunters and crucified. Coming back from this won't be easy. Canon-divergent from midway through season 2.

Recall by De_Nugis:

Sam's having a hard time telling what's real and what isn't, especially when it comes to some voicemails from Dean.

The Room Upstairs by brokenlittleboy:

Sam comes back from hell, but he’s inside-out and all wrong, and Dean can’t fix him.

CW: mentioned past rape/noncon

Ruin You (and its companion fic Worth) by Mumble_Bee:

Cole fucks Sam with Demon!Dean watching from a devil's trap, snarling that anyone would dare touch what was his. “I told you I don’t care what you do to his face or his blood or his fucking nose,” Dean growled, “but you put your dick anywhere near him and I will end you.” “Better hurry up then, Dean, because I don’t think I can wait much longer.”

CW: explicit rape/noncon

Snowed In by HelloStarlingFics:

When working a case, Sam and Dean get stuck out in a shack in the woods when the snow comes in hard and fast. Trouble is, Sam’s hated the cold ever since the Cage. Time for Dean to step up and look after him.

Wake by minchout:

Gadreel has had Sam for four years, and Dean, lost in guilt and obsessed with finding a way to get his brother back, has isolated himself in a cabin in the Missouri Ozarks with nothing but the woods, a stray dog, some chickens, and all the books the Men of Letters had to offer to keep him company. Then Sam shows up one day without his passenger, and Dean learns quickly that it doesn't matter that Sam is with him again - there is still a lot of work to be done before they can find their way back to each other.

Wanting to Forget by morganaDW (morgana07):

1-shot. S1 fic. After getting Sam freed from the Benders Dean thinks all he has to cope with is some bruises and cuts. He learns quickly just how wrong he is when Sam wakes up with a nightmare, reliving his brief but bad captivity in every detail. Sam just wants to forget & Dean has to try to get him to let him help. Will one night of cruelty and pain ruin what’s been formed between them?

CW: referenced past rape/noncon

when I wake up I'm afraid, somebody else might take my place by quake_quiver:

Sam doesn’t remember the last time he cried for Dean like he did that night. And now it’s been…two weeks. Maybe more. Sam is tired, and in pain, and starting to doubt that Dean’s going to show up. He’s weak and shaking from a combination of constant pain and hunger. Sam longs for Dean. Dean would make it better. Dean would fix it.

CW: rape/noncon, body horror

Wire Inside Me by merle_p:

There are a lot of things Sam hates about his current condition, to the point where he sometimes feels for the gun under his pillow at night, blindly toys with the safety, imagines pressing the muzzle into the underside of his chin and pulling the trigger just to make it stop. But there’s nothing he hates as much as the shadows he sees in Dean’s eyes whenever his brother is looking at him these days. It’s not an expression he remembers ever seeing before, but Sam thinks it’s probably something like revulsion. Horror. Disgust. What else could it be.

CW: referenced past rape/noncon, body horror, forced pregnancy

Worth (and its companion fic Ruin You) by Mumble_Bee:

Episode 10x01 "Black" where Dean is a human, and very, very, pissed off to hear someone has hands on his brother. “It’s nothing personal,” Cole whispered into Sam's ear, too quietly for Dean to hear, “but I need to kill your brother, and I need him off his game when he gets here. I don’t wanna hurt you, kid, but I’m going to, anyway. I’m going to hurt you a lot."

CW: explicit rape/noncon

you'll never see us again by according2thelore:

Then finally, his eyes trail over to Dean. His pupils are pin-point thin, and his hair is straggling in his face so Dean can’t see most of what expression lies there. Sam usually wakes up from nightmares in one of three attitudes: confusion, fear, or calm. A scary, sense-prickling calm that Dean hates more than anything else. Resignation, almost. Or: Sam suffers from nightmares and touch starvation post-Cage. They do their best to deal.

other Sam/Lucifer noncon

Cage Fight (No Way To Do This Right) by Dyed_Red:

Sam’s visit to the cage is already going awry, but Dean’s one-man rescue ends up skidding it sideways into territory neither him or Sam are ready for. (Gratuitous episode scene re-write. If Cas hadn’t come till after, if he hadn’t been there yet when Dean ran down to the 'parole' cage after hearing Sam scream - how bad could it have got for the brothers before he made it?)

CW: graphic rape/noncon

Into Being by withthekeyisking:

When Sam wakes up in the cave on Apocalypse World after having been killed by vamps, it's not just to find Lucifer there with him. It's to find him in him.

CW: graphic rape/noncon, necrophilia, forced pregnancy

Reggie/Tim/Sam noncon

a pointless resistance for you by withthekeyisking:

Sam doesn't know how long he's been with Tim and Reggie by the time Dean shows up and tries to take him out of there. Long enough that's he's already lost one baby and is pregnant with the next. Long enough that this life is starting to feel like all he knows.

CW: graphic rape/noncon, forced pregnancy & miscarriage, victim blaming

screaming birds sound an awful lot like singing by withthekeyisking:

Sam has done his best to move past what Tim and Reggie did to him, pretending it never happened at all. But running into them again makes that very difficult—especially when Dean gets involved.

CW: referenced past rape/noncon

Waste 'Em All by withthekeyisking:

When Tim and Reggie try to force the demon blood down Sam's throat, he spits it back out. He has no interest in being turned into their own personal attack dog. They don't...take it well.

CW: explicit rape/noncon

[mafuluzx]

Hello!!!! I just wanted to ask you if you had any headcanons for ANY of ur interests! It could be stuff related to canon story line or your x reader stories! This request sounds a bit odd, but I would LOVE to hear about it!

I'm honestly soooo flattered and surprised because I always see other people do a lot of headcanons but I myself always think that my readers may not like that??? I guess I'm just self-consious about my writing or something.

But a few, and I mean very few things do come to mind, so I'll just put them here!

(y/n), in Set in Stone, would NOT, under any circumstances, handle a horror movie. He wouldn't be scared, but once a jump scare or a scary monster popped up, he'd be GONE.

Overall in canon Ninjago, I pretend Crystallized and Dragon's Rising don't exist in the same universe. It's like some multiverse stuff. Crystallized being like the 'good ending', and Dragon's Rising whatever else there is.

And especially in my writing, I love writing Zane as a very toned down, but very emotional, though not expressive. Since in the show, but mainly in the later seasons, he's treated like he doesn't have feelings. (This is not the case in all newer seasons, s8 and s9 did a great job with portraying him) Mainly because in the first season the whole point of his character was that just because he was different, that doesn't make him any less 'human' or any less worth than the others.

And lastly a bit more about Ninjago: I used to hate Kailor... but I love it because of Crystallized. I hate crystallized, but I think they fixed Kailor, like well. It's like they started on a new leaf, I just enjoy what they did with it.

And really, from the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU for the message <3<3

[the-ninja-legacy-whip]

Oh oh, question! What's each ninja's mental health journey throughout the series? Who becomes more stable mentally, who doesn't. Will anyone develop any issues?

Well, it’s kinda like—

Kai and Zane: Both hit very, VERY deep lows at various points in the story, but in front of others still manage to keep a clear head to get them all out of situations (with slips up here and there). And then while in private, Kai tends to get violent and Zane—well, once he (re)learns how to mess with his own memories and/or emotions you know what happens

Nya and Skylor: Both have had rough experiences growing up (Skylor perhaps more extremely) and then go on to be directly or indirectly associated with others suffering (more so Nya here), but aside from a few lashes of anger or frustration at their circumstances every now and then, are actually pretty well adjusted all things considered.

Harleigh: Is probably the only one that clearly gets put on a better place mentally, though it definitely takes a whole lot of time and patience. She starts off so irritable and unfriendly because she feels helpless and betrayed, but slowly gets the perspective needed to pull herself out of it.

Jay and Pixal: Similar to Kai and Zane they hit some LOWS, but despite feeling that bad…they never quite let it consume them (with exceptions such as the extreme situation in S9). Like, Jay may panic and freak out of course, and Pixal has the occasional nightmare and lapse in judgement, but rarely do they hit a point where they can no longer function or fight their way out of a situation, whether physically or mentally.

Cole: Goes from burying his problems and being crushed by the weight of bearing them all to relearning that he does have the power to climb himself out of a deep hole ;w;)/ it’s not easy by any mean and rightfully has moments of deep despair, but for him, he does get better at not letting it consume his entire mind (although he never could quite chase away all his insecurities either)

Jesse: idk how this man makes it, life is tearing him down and ruining his happiness at every chance it gets and if it’s not him it’s Cole so how has he not had a fully blown meltdown how do you drag yourself through these miserable days sir???? (He has a therapist) but no, pls, get this man a BREAK

Miranda: Probably works in reverse— just kind of ignores her pain and problems as best she can and vibes through life until it winds up smacking her in the face long, long down the line at a very inconvenient time and then she suddenly can’t COPE (but she gets better. Mostly.)

Lloyd, eyes glowing gold and grinning at full force: Nothing’s Wrong! Everything is fine! I feel great! Especially when I can’t feel anything at all :D …what do you mean my eyes are the wrong color, this is normal I’m not repressing anything—

And we cant talk about Olivia and Harumi yet

[alitgblog]

s9 vol 4 thoughts: actually head relatively empty this volume thats not a great thing 😬

I guess first off is I completely forgot what the cliffhanger last volume was so I didn't even know what was gonna happen coming into this volume and tbh I played it like four hours ago at the time of me writing this, I still don't remember.

I do remember deciding my MC was conflicted about Chen after his ex and I just need an excuse for my MC to be messy (I've decided to headcanon drama for her and in my head this is justified in her beach hut clips which, btw, I still miss the beach hut 🥲). more importantly, that's why I had her stay in the bed with Henri, and this resulted in basically nothing. like I know he said he was stepping back, but he's still an option so I was just hoping for a bigger fight from him? By the end of the volume it felt more like he was waiting for Chen and Jude to mess up so he could swoop in. Kinda boring, a little bit of a let down bc I did enjoy the love triangles with him and Melissa and Chen a little bit in volume 1 and we never really got more of it.

Okay the breakfast chat with Hamish was cute. His personality is definitely toned down now that he's an LI, but I'm glad they're keeping some of his personality. It does make him a bit more intriguing than the all in for you and only you and can't think about anything else type characters (Chen/Henri/Jude/Lyle)

The game being three games in one was odd to me? I'm probably just being nitpicky but I'm like no the game would've been either a physical challenge with multiple parts including the balloons, or Mr. and Mrs., or a vote from the islanders (which is not a game), but all three?? Nahh. Nevertheless, it did what it had to do.

No actually it didn't do what it had to do, because for some reason the prize was essentially MC getting three quick separate dates? She doesn't even cook in the kitchen with her date? Like if we're gonna do that might as well just make the challenge an individual one and then MC wins the challenge and then the prize is all the guys have to cook her dinner. And if we really need to remove Finn and Hamish then just have them leave the kitchen once the food is made to go have chats with their partners and then the other offer to stay behind and serve MC.

Oh yeah so Shawn is there. That's alright I guess. I kinda dislike having the old islanders show up as guest hosts? I didn't mind Bella and I like Grace but she still seemed out of place being the host for a date? Like we could've removed her. it's just so random and I think it's just because fusebox is hoping we pay gems to find out where our "favorite" islanders are now. And they can't do S1 but they needed a chef so that's how we get Shawn.

like I said, choosing chaos, so she did kiss Henri and I did feel a little bad for Chen because he saw it and dropped everything he was so shocked oops felt a little bad. But she kissed Chen too so... all good?

and here's where I forget the order of things so forgive me if it seems like I'm all over the place

Melissa seems less aggy and that's nice bc i like her and her sprite and i wish she wasnt just another woman fusebox wants us to hate (a la Luna/Sophie/Emel). her sudden return to Henri is absolutely just because we need her to be with SOMEONE and I wish it was fleshed out just a little bit more. like either make it seem more natural that she's gone back to him and show us her like making an effort to apologize (maybe she just asks the girls for advice and MC has a chance to sabotage if actually she wants him for herself). Or alternatively let one of the girls call her out for how she seems like she's just playing the game. Like Henri is her second choice clearly she just needs to keep him close because Hamish has pied her off for Natasha. Not asking for much, this could be like five lines of dialogue and I'd forgive fusebox if this never came up again after.

Kat, Finn, and Kelly wrapping things up very quickly and OFF SCREEN right before the recoupling was odd and rushed. At least Kat is moving on thank god we can move away from this storyline

Oh crap I remember the cliffhanger from last volume now, it was the cheating thing from Kat and Finn. Boring overused trope. At least they walked away from it realizing they won't work together (or at least Kat did, I'm not so sure about Finn). Pls let that be the end of the storyline 🙏🙏

for those of yall on a wlw route, I am wondering if answering Melissa's question about who MC is more interested in between Kelly and Natasha determines only the hideaway option or also closes one of their routes? like I don't think they'll pull a S6 and if you pick Kelly then Natasha gets dumped, but that's only because it seems like they're going the S8 route of they need to stay because Hamish will be with Natasha and Kelly with Finn (the way that Claudia always goes back to Theo and Bea with Liam/Logan).

Hamish wanting to be better for Natasha is cute actually and I think it makes his character better as an LI because it shows he can change and wants to, especially for the right person. And he's loyal to her (or trying to be? it's unclear, considering how they've also had him making moves on Melissa in previous episodes). But if we say he is, then I could see his route opening up more when Natasha rejects him (maybe in Casa? Maybe before, maybe for MC) so you still have that storyline and it's less snakey, they just have to cope with essentially him having MC as second choice (which I also think we could just change make it a Jake S1 sorta storyline: he has to admit he was afraid before and also wanted to be loyal to his partner and give her a chance hoping it stuck but realizing he cant force it.. maybe that was his problem in s6 too going all in with Grace only to get burned when she stayed with Ozzy. And like I think it could work as long as its not happening at the very last recoupling)

It's a good day to be open to flirting with Finn especially after I didn't couple with him playing S5 and then subsequently never again played S5 because it's S5 and so never coupled with Finn. But I do wonder how boring these episodes must be if you're not. I'm a fan of the slow burn though I just need it to make sense!! Him getting stolen by other girls is fine for now but if it's a boys choice recoupling or MC gets to go first and he's still not an option I'll be upset 😤

Finn and Hamish every day look more and more like good routes and that's fully because they're individual routes. Like say what you want about S5, but at least they didn't merge three to four guys' personality into one. (they're all bad in their own ways.) All things considered, as long as we don't continue to merge routes (like I anticipate Henri/Chen/Jude/Lyle are the same from here on out, minus some details in the dialogue), I dont hate the idea of having a few interchangeable guys for the loyal routes and then some other guys added in with unique routes and personalities. I mean ideal scenario is they're all unique, but I guess I could see people saying for example, they like the look of Finn but wish he was more like Henri's route. So this way you get a little choice if you want Henri's route because you can pick between Chen/Jude/Lyle as well.

Kelly picks Finn and I am curious how this is gonna go because he clearly only sees her as a friend and I don't know how Kelly is gonna react. Like are they gonna make her blow up or she's just gonna be passive aggressive or like hold it all in if/when he eventually rejects her? even though she's an old islander, she's kind of a clean slatebc we saw so little of her in S4.

Why mention the hideaway and then cut to a girls chat lol literally just switch the order.

So I had MC and Chen go to the hideaway and I roll my eyes every time that box shows up. And then oh what do you know there's an argument outside do you think we're gonna have to pay gems to hear about the drama we conveniently weren't there for? 😑

not the shower scene again and Finn rejects me noooo my MC is messy on purpose this time

I think there might be no casa this season? just based on the leaks about islander names and also there's no casa in the irl love island all stars so I guess??

Then someone's getting dumped and I can't remember if it was individual islanders or a couple but doesn't matter, we all know who ghe disposable islanders rn are and it's the two guys you didn't pick and Melissa and Kat. I actually don't know which is more likely to leave. Again, could be couples or individual islanders. i could see them doing the bottom two couples and then the safe guys choose a girl to stay and the safe girls choose a guy to stay, if the game wants a specific storyline for either Kat or Melissa, otherwise they're just gonna merge. If for some reason you don't get a choice, I could see them taking away Melissa's partner so she has more of an excuse to drive apart Hamish and Natasha since it seems like that storyline isn't finished (versus Kat and Finn may be done soon). And for similar reason I could see Kat being finished and she gives one last blessing to Finn and Kelly's relationship. Unless they're dragging out her story longer.

in conclusion, I've already committed to playing this season if not for the story, then to see what Stefan looks like, so if you see me liking posts about how this season sucks and someone else didn't finish it don't @ me 😂😂😂

[mywingsareonwheels]

Some things that Morse doesn't know about Thursday in s9 of Endeavour (and may in fact never find out).

(Spoilers behind the cut, also CW references to child abuse, alcoholism, violence, and a mention of elder abuse.)

that Thursday taking the job in Carshall was Bright's idea, not Thursday's, and that Thursday needed to be talked into it by Bright specifically because he knew he'd be leaving Morse behind and was unhappy about this for both their sakes. (Honestly I adore Bright and I think he was right to do this, and right in gently encouraging Thursday in s8 to let Morse move on and grow away from them all, but it is still an important distinction!)

that Thursday missed him achingly when he was away (although I think that scene late in 9.1 makes it clear that Thursday would have told him if he'd thought Morse could cope with it... ;-)).

that Sam had a dishonorable discharge, which the family are covering up not because they're ashamed of him, but because they want to protect him.

the full extent of how unwell Sam is and how much this is manifesting in behavioural problems (although Morse has noticed a fair amount of this and knows something is extremely up, but the full degree of it, and how badly it's affecting the whole family? I don't know). Thus, the extent of exactly how desperately worried Thursday is.

that Thursday is a child abuse survivor, specifically of physical abuse from an alcoholic, and that this is his first time in adulthood sharing his home with an angry alcoholic who is (now Thursday is older and Sam in something like his prime, alcohol aside) physically stronger than he is.

(the punch at Strange's stag do is so much more upsetting in that context, I note, as is Thursday's instinctive placation. There's paternal kindness and loyalty and generosity in that moment, but I think there's an old trauma reaction too; it read to me awfully like an emotional flashback. It is extremely fortunate that Sam is very decent indeed deep down, seems shocked by his own action, and is doing better by the end of the episode. Sam is one of two men (the other being Morse) that I would not trust Thursday to even try to defend himself against.)

that Thursday finally gave into Lott's blackmail over Blenheim Vale at the point that Morse's life was threatened. When he talks about the pressures via "family"... he meant Morse, not just Win, Joan, Sam, Charlie, and (arguably) Strange. There were a range of threats, but that seems to have been the final straw, especially as it was the most explicit.

the phone call Thursday got from Ronnie Box trying to encourage him to get out of the situation (and Thursday refusing; he may have taken a while to talk into the new Blenheim Vale investigation but he wasn't going to abandon it once committed until it was that or let people he loved get killed; when the threat was only against himself, nah, nothing doing).

that Lott tried to kill Charlie, and Thursday still doesn't know where Charlie is; what Charlie's done to Thursday is horrible but still, yikes.

that Thursday was dreadfully worried about Morse at the wedding (that's Word of Roger, rather than in the script, mind you, but it would be extremely out of character if he hadn't been).

Morse does go through an awful lot in series 9, but the sheer fricking trauma conga line of Thursday's life in that series, all while he's trying to pretend everything's just fine... ouch.

None of it justifies Thursday's serious fuck-ups and wrongs in 9.3 of course! But I think it's absolutely crucial not to see Thursday entirely through Morse's eyes at any point in s9, because there's such a lot that Morse doesn't know, and for the first time Morse is liable to be far too harsh on his old mentor, not too gentle on him. Thursday is not okay at any point in series 9, and seems to spend the whole of 9.3 breaking down.

(I hope it goes without saying that I am very much of the opinion that Thursday should have told Morse at least some of all this!! But I find it very understandable that he didn't, especially as mostly he wasn't protecting himself, but Sam. Gaaaaah it's all so tragic!)

(Yep, I know I keep saying this, but I actually would find it deeply out of character for both Shaun Evans' Morse and John Thaw's Morse to reject Thursday and even his memory entirely for what happened. Even with the v limited data he knows. Protecting him by never talking about him to anybody while sharing a detailed (if perhaps coded) correspondence with him for the rest of the time they're both alive? Infinitely more likely. And can't you just see Thaw's Morse being that leeetle bit silently smug about still being closer to Strange's father-in-law (or possibly ex-father-in-law) than he is. ;-) )

[miss-littevi]

My thoughts about Dawntrail

somehow a follow-up to this post I made approx 2 weeks ago (not really, I didn't go into detail there)

It will have spoilers for Dawntrail so I'll put evrything else under the cut (and: typos ahead. I try to write an okay english, but it isn't my mother tongue and I don't want to process everything through a translator tool other than my brain)

The first half

We go to Tural to help Wuk Lamat with the Rite and I was fully aware we would be in an "Assistant Role" therefore. And that was one of my concerns to be honest. This is a game, and I want to be the main character in the JRPG (MMORPG here) I play. Might be just me, but that's how I feel. I am the "enabeling side character" for the rest of my day, let me be the hero just a few hours.

However, the story writers found a good balance between Wuk Lamat and the WoL and it felt somehow "natural". We are in her homeland, the WoL doesn't know how things work there and what Lamaty'i doesn't know too, we figure out together. It was a good journey I'd say (exept the Pelupelu, that part was annoying for me).

In fact, Yorina (in character spoken) would have enjoyed it very much (not the sun, but seeing new cultures, anrchitectures, the Yok Huy and their pictographic writings are anazing to her linguist mind) But it was good this whole Rite-journey was over after about half the expansion. I really looked forward to continue exploring the land for the sake of exploring and not a political agenda

Beginning of the second half

I start here with when you first visit Shaaloani, when you encounter the story with the corrupt sheriff. It felt like a "filler episode" to give things in the background (Lamaty'i and Koana getting into their role as rulers of Tuliyolal) time to develop. It was a fun intermezzo and I liked it (Estinien approaching was a bonus but not necessary for me but now we know that they needed him in this place later so they put him here.)

With the earthquake-explosion-dome-appearing-thing, the second story-part of the expansion started and my "Sci-Fi-and-Cyberpunk-loving heart" couldn't wait to get to the "missing" areas. Running around in Tuliyolal and helping people at first glance felt like a "unnecessary slow-down" but on the long run it helped to "feel" the situation and get a feeling about Lamaty'i's thoughts and feelings.

Heritage Found and Solution Nine are fantastic from an aesthetic point of view and I still like it there. It again was a "quest to find out about this foreign land and its residents ". And other than in the first half, I felt like being on the same level with Lamaty'i and travelling there as a fellow companion and not as some kind of "watchdog" to look after her and ensure she doesn't run off a cliff (what it was in the first half for me)

Sphene

Sphene was an interesting character imo because the writers, the translators(localization and the german voice actress (don't know about the other languages, german game-client here) made her a character I didn't trust from the first but after a few dialoges I honestly thought "maybe Zoraal Ja invaded her Kingdom (we don't know about how it was 30 years ago) and she is held hostage by him needs help because he would murder her people if she tried to get rid of him." I was wrong, I know that now and there war one point where I was sure, she wasn't held hostage or anything by him. Lamaty'i ask if she has anything to do with the attack on Tuliollal and she says (literal translation from the german line) "I would do anything to protect my people" She could have said "No", if she wasn't involved, but she didn't. She didn't lie to us (that's a good thing at least, I guess...?)

Living Memory

I'll be honest: this area caught me off guard and threw me out of the flow within seconds. My first thought "okay, here we go, this is the point where I start to hate this expansion." Coming from S9 and Heritage Found (and the sci-fi-like dungeon in between) this "20s amusement park" made me close the game after the first three dialogues. Next day, late afternoon I continued. By now, I like the "reverse Ultima Thule" idea of this zone. Shutting all those memories down made an impression on me (and working in information tecnology sector IRL made me think about if it is really necessary to store everything for eternity into some cloud storage systems when a game shows you how much energy it costs and that ressouces available will not be enough to keep these systems alive someday - it does something to me. Not that it would be new information but it made me think again)

All those quests there, the gondola ride with Raha, Krile's origin and parents, Erenville and his mother. Those were beautiful little stories but it felt "dragged out". The stories could have been handled way shorter and the last zone is the one I like the least - because of aesthetic and MSQ; the concept of a "Holodeck for the Dead" is good, it's just the execution I don't like.

The last trial

The fight was fun. And the idea of Sphene overwriting herself to be an eternal Queen who can protect all her people, is not a new concept but it is fitting here.

BUT: why this transition into the second phase of the fight. Why did they decide Lamaty'i had to do the "Gaia in Eden" move and break into the battle arena to save the day?! I don't hate Lalamty'i, I really don't. She is a great character with a wonderful character development, but in this moment, I wanted to kick her out of the arena and scream in that directon to let the WoL have their "hero moment"

WoL is a nobody there, I know that (even though I really don't buy that they didn't have noticed the final days, that they didn't know about the hero who saved the world, but that's a overall problem in this game) But let me be the hero in "my" game. I am sure Lamaty'i would not have fallen into despair if WoL defeaded Sphene.

But that's my only real issue with Dawntrail MSQ

The additional Content

The additional content (lvl 100 Dungeons, Raids, Rolequests, Crafter/Gatherer-quests) looks fun so far. The "cactuar-dungeon" has some annoying mechanics but they are only annoying as long as I don't understand them. It will get better. The normal raid is fun from a gameplay pov, interessting from a story pov (I am not a savage raider so nothing to that from me)

I still wand my guest room /apartement in S9 but I don't think I will ever get one ^^''

And that is everything I want to say at this point. Dawntrail was way better than I expected but my expectations were really low anyway. I had fun and am looking forward to the patch content :-)

[chiisana-sukima]

One of the things I find most fascinating and also most frustrating about spn as a sprawling multi-authored text is sorting out theories about the reading(s) intended by the creators versus what's actually on the "page"/(screen) versus how individual viewers interpret both of those things based on their own lived experiences vs how we as a fandom community approach the morass of all of the above. I'm by nature a reader response theory kind of girl, and I think especially in a text like spn, where the various authors very clearly didn't always agree with each other and in which some weird, nebulous, probably only marginally correct personification of the collective audience also influenced what the story was allowed to do and become, any attempt to assign a singular, unitary meaning to the text is going to be, if not futile, at least way too complicated to contain in the ways fandom generally approaches meta.

I really dig your meta above. I think it's well-argued and as close to a synthesis of the disparate pieces of what ended up on the screen during the Carver era as it's possible to get. I do also think that there are other equally good ways of combining the ingredients we were given--sort of like if fandom had a bunch of leftovers from a potluck supper in our refrigerator and we were all arguing over whether there's a "right" way to combine them all to make a single edible dish. No matter which combination we attempt, it's gonna end up kinda weird and questionable and we'll have to leave some of the leftovers out and combine some of the other ones in proportions that some of us think are amazing and others think are a disaster.

because the point of the whole season is that sam and dean are the same. they will make the same decisions to save each other over and over again. the point of the whole season is that sam has been lying to himself.

So for example, I think this is a good 'point of the whole season' for some fans, but not only isn't for others, it also imo probably wasn't a dish tptb intentionally jointly agreed to create together at the beginning of s8-10 and was only kind of the dish they brought to the potluck together at the end of s9.

For example, the "I lied" line was ad libbed in by Jared during filming. I think the original actually supports your argument better, and I think your interpretation was most likely what Carver had in mind (although I'm not sure tbh, because his statements on it are confusing).

That does look to me like Sam lying to himself and only realizing it when Dean is on the edge of death. And this from immediately after it supports your point too imo:

It looks to me here like by "For the first time... we played through" Dean meant the first time they had a major conflict without fucking everything up worse? Again, I'm not sure though, and it also doesn't gel with past canon very well, since they "played through" the first Apocalypse too. So that was Carver.

But J2 took it all out.

Jared talked about why he changed the "before I knew you were actually gonna die" line and what he meant by it multiple times, and his explanation is that Sam had been lying to Dean on purpose in the "same circumstances" line, because he was angry that Dean lied to him about Gadreel and it was basically a "see, it doesn't feel so good when you're on the receiving end, now does it?" Which is to say, not hypocrisy, just shitty anger management skills.

There's a good clip from SDCC 2014 where he explains it that way, which unfortunately I can't find atm, but here's a slightly less clear version from Jibcon that year (at 14:45). According to liveblogging from that same Jibcon, he says outright at another point (that I can't find anywhere myself) that he specifically objected to the "same circumstances" line and was trying to fix it. I have always thought that line meant the obvious, that same circumstances, he wouldn't violate Dean's consent the way Dean violated his, and that's the reading I prefer. But I do have to admit this scene, also from The Purge, supports Jared's reading. It very much does read like two bitchy fools being passive-aggressive with each other and like they're both well-aware of it.

BUT THEN. Here's Sam at SDCC saying that even though Sam lied, he didn't lie about the "same circumstances" part. The original video is lost, but it's pretty clear from the gifs and the OP's paraphrase of the question that he's walking back jibcon when faced directly with just the "same circumstances" part rather than "I wouldn't save you" as a whole.

I don't take those two somewhat contradictory stances by Jared to be actually contradictory--I think there's room to believe he sincerely means both--but I do take them to mean he's threading a very tight needle and he knows it. Sam was apparently crucified by the viewers for the "same circumstances" line, and I think much of s10 was a course correction in the writing because of that. Most of the s10 SDCC publicity was talking up how destructive Sam was willing to be to save Dean, and you can tell it bothers Jared that people think Sam doesn't love Dean as much as Dean loves Sam. But I'm especially fascinated by that tiny little carve out--that place where Jared, and imo the writing too, aren't quite willing to go. They aren't quite willing to commit to Sam violating Dean's autonomy like Dean violated Sam's.

Because no matter how much they say with their whole chests that Sam's choices in s10 are equivalent to those of Dean in s9 (and which in your reading are in turn equivalent to Sam's in s8), only one of those choices involved a metric fuckton of rape references. And, if by some (to me frankly unbelievable) coincidence none of the creators noticed they were doing that, it only makes their meal taste even weirder and more horrifyingly compelling.

in order for all of this to work, the conflicts in season 8 and season 9 have to be equal. i.e. dean has to violate sam and his ethics as badly as sam violated dean and his ethics

Like this here for example, if this is true as seen though the eyes of the creators, it means that they are asserting that the commensurate retribution for cheating on one's partner is rape.

Did they do this on purpose? ¯(ツ)/¯

Did they think it was just a titillating series of jokes? ┐(‘～`;)┌

Or did it just, without conscious planning on anyone's part, collectively somehow... happen? ¯(⊙︿⊙)/¯

Either way, it's well. Really fucking delicious, but not in a way that's to everyone's taste. And we'll never be able to ask the creators who brought it to our fandom potluck, because the bizarre etiquette of how spn has handled its relationship with fandom includes them being able to bring a rape allusion to the table every three or four episodes, but no one ever being allowed to address it head on. Ever.

and sam is a hypocrite for trying to maintain his autonomy while stripping it from dean

I'm gonna be honest here, I do think tptb thought that Sam was a hypocrite, not just in s8, but all along from day one. I just don't think the thing they thought he was a hypocrite about was whether or not he was willing to strip Dean's autonomy. I think they thought Sam was a hypocrite in that he was--metaphorically--a lying, cheating whore, and refused to admit it.

Dean's suggested list of sins for when Sam went to confession was that (metaphorically) Sam had cheated on Dean with Ruby, with Lilith, with Lucifer, and with Amelia. And Sam's "every time I let you down" likely included those plus possibly--unmentioned in Sacrifice, but brought up many times over the course of spn--also cheating with the entirety of Stanford. Dean, when he went to confession, confessed to the sin of cheating too, but he confessed that falsely, for the case. His honest confession was that he didn't want to be just the weapon John made him into and he then made himself into even more by taking the MoC.

Carver apparently talked a lot about how he was "maturing" the characters in his seasons, and I do think this fits. It is a weakness in Dean that he's too faithful; that he has no boundaries and can admit to no self-interest. And it--according to the underlying ethos of spn--is a weakness in Sam that he runs too easily; that he accepts Dean's gift of his entire self without giving his entire self back.

I think the space here--between they are both the same and they are complimentary opposites, between I lied and but not about that, and consequently in fandom between they're only equal if they both have no boundaries and Sam losing what little separation he has from Dean viscerally horrifies me--is both so small it's hard to find words to explain what the problem is and also so huge that it splits the fandom bitterly in half.

Another way to look at that small/huge difference is are they codependent or are they enmeshed? I vastly prefer enmeshed (although I agree with the critiques of both concepts), and I like that the fandom is moving towards the enmeshed terminology. I don't like codependence as a theoretical construct and I'm glad psychology is moving away from believing it's a solid way to talk about real phenomena. My guess--but it's just a guess--is that J2 (and especially Jared) also prefer Sam and Dean's relationship as enmeshed. But it looks to me like what Carver was going for in s8-10 was making them more codependent. This would make sense for the s10 season, which is an addiction arc (Dean is addicted and Sam is codependent), and would also make sense of the continued (I would say accelerated) discrepancies in how the characters' ethical failings are portrayed and received.

the point of season 9 is not that dean metaphorically raped his helpless little brother; rather it's that the violation of agency goes both ways

So for example, I can't speak for anyone but myself with absolute surety, but I'm confident no one actually thinks Sam is helpless. And I'm somewhat less confident about non-wincest shippers on this half, but at least among wincest shippers I also don't think anyone thinks the season was about Dean raping his baby brother. I think some of us think it was about Dean raping his cheating wife--who, after all, is about to go off with a seductive, powerful, older man AGAIN barely two minutes after taking vows not to--on their wedding night and what that led to going forward.

This is absolutely not a misreading or a 'misleading analysis' (as the OP in your link says) of what's on the screen. It fits their relationship over the course of the show, it fits the Carver years especially well, and it fits the combination of 8x01 through 9x02 so well it's--as I suspect Carver intended--truly horrifying and shocking*. And we can never know whether it was the intended reading or not, because no one involved would admit to it, whether it's true or just a bunch of undifferentiated content their ids brought without their permission.

*The pre-season publicity for the Carver years is fascinating. For both s8 & s10, J2 + the showrunners all clearly have the same talking points about the themes of the upcoming season reduced to a few short phrases, and about the content of the first few episodes. But in s9, in regards to Sam & Dean, they got nothin'. Carver outright says "sorry, but I think people should experience a story the way it's written so we're not gonna tell you." Girl (gn), where did THAT come from? You didn't believe it in the other two seasons.

ok tumblr deleted most of my tag essay on this post, so i've recreated and expanded upon it in its own post.

so the op of the post made a great point which really touched on why i've been feeling that i had a fundamentally different takeaway of season 9 compared to the rest of the fandom. i have a lot to say in response to this, not in argument but in support and synthesis of it.

i'll start with dean at the beginning of season 9: he has a great struggle in 901 regarding gadreel possessing sam, more so than any other struggle he's faced when saving sam's life, which points to me as him being aware of and conflicted about sam's history of possession. he understands this is crossing a line because it's similar to lucifer and meg, and so accepting gadreel's deal is violating sam to a length dean hasn't gone to before. dean by and large is the one who has this particular ethical problem (shown throughout the first half of season 9), not sam. hell, dean is the one who leaves sam once gadreel's out, without even waiting for input because his self-loathing is that strong.

sam, on the other hand, is more textually concerned in his 912/913 arguments with the lack of trust ("i can't trust you, not the way i thought i could") and dean's selfishness ("you did it for you"). this is an ongoing conflict sam has with dean, since the beginning of the show. dean doesn't trust sam to make his own decisions and therefore makes them for him, without sam's consent or knowledge. sam wants to be trusted to stand on his own, and he wants dean to put the same faith in him that he puts in dean. this is the core of sam's needs; the violation of autonomy is just an externalization of these needs and this conflict.

and i don't entirely disagree with the connection between going behind sam's back to keep him alive against his will and a rape narrative. both involve a lack of consent and a violation of agency. however, it really doesn't stop there, and it's a lot more complex than that.

and that's what rubs me wrong about more common interpretations of season 9 that i've seen. because this isn't really what the season is about. this violation on its own isn't the point. or if it is on the surface, it's equally about sam lying to himself about what it's actually about. he's consistently left out of major decisions regarding his own life and then lied to about it "for his own good," and he wants the right to choose his own path.

except, as we learn, that's not true. he lied about it. because the point of the whole season is that sam and dean are the same. they will make the same decisions to save each other over and over again. the point of the whole season is that sam has been lying to himself.

i said this in another post, but i think a big reason sam was able to lie to himself about this fact is because he's had the opportunity to let dean go on several occasions. he's been unable to save dean the way dean has saved sam. he fails where dean succeeds. sam has been forced to endure a grief that dean has never had to experience because dean always brings sam back. and so because sam has endured these experiences maybe he's more comfortable letting dean choose death in the abstract—the hypothetical. but in reality when it comes to that point, sam can't actually follow through, because he's just as dependent on dean being there for him as dean is dependent on sam.

and that's what season 9 is about. sam has been lying to himself about this reality from the start. this is why 1019 parallels 311 regarding how insane sam is about dean. it's reiterating the facts we've known but with a new perspective, now that sam is done deluding himself. he needs to accept that he was lying to himself and to dean, and this is what allows season 9 to close and for season 10 to begin, because season 10 is a response to sam's realization. he chooses dean over everything else in a monumental display of hypocrisy and genuine understanding of himself and who dean is to him.

seasons 8-10 should be taken as a single, cohesive unit, and the show goes to great lengths to enforce this. season 9 mirrors season 8, and season 10 acts as a response to and therefore a continuation of season 9. you can see this in the way charlie's death mirrors kevin's (one brother's lies and deceptions leads to increasing stakes that could have been avoided through honesty and openness, which culminates in the death of their beloved ally, and the deceptive brother blames himself for that death because his own unethical actions led to it), or how both of them undergo a change in their physiology as a result of godlike power entering their bodies which mutilate them from the inside and have fatal consequences (sam with the trials, dean with the mark of cain) which can only reasonably be resolved with their deaths (and they both even enter the final stages of this conflict by going to confession). also the plot structures of seasons 8 and 9 on their own mirror each other very closely.

this is all very important because it outlines the purpose of each of these two seasons. it's about them being fundamentally betrayed by their brother, causing that brother to become desperate and feel rejected and unloved, only for them to get what they need out of each other to reaffirm their love. they have to function as a unit, because otherwise both season's primary conflicts (as in, the conflicts established in the first half of each season) are left unresolved. instead, sam gets what he needs from dean in 823, which means that in return dean gets what he needs from sam in 923, thus closing the circle that was opened in 801.

dean reaffirmed that sam is the most important person in the world to him in sacrifice, that he would choose sam over every single other person on earth—this is what sam needed to hear, because it's the foundation of the conflict in season 8, since sam thinks dean chose benny over him and this sent him spiraling into a suicidal depression and self-loathing. so season 9, consequentially, is about dean getting what he needs from sam: he needs to know that sam will do anything in his power to save dean, which is a conflict that began in season 8 (with sam not searching for dean in purgatory) and is reasserted in 913 when sam tells him that he wouldn't violate his agency if the situations were reversed.

and this is exactly what dean gets in 923, when sam says he lied about all of that. dean gets the affirmation that sam's love for dean goes beyond petty ethics, which translates to "dean is more important to sam than anything else in the world" where the "anything else" includes sam's own moral boundaries. this is important to dean because dean eschews his own moral boundaries for sam's sake and safety over and over again throughout the series, and this is a major source of his own character development (see: 122, 203, 214, 222, et cetera et cetera). sam repeatedly denies that he's the same way, and has proven at least once that he wouldn't do the same, so this is an important affirmation for sam to give and it's why dean had spiraled into a suicidal depression and self-loathing (look, another parallel).

so season 8-9 are mirrors of each other, and they have to be mirrors of each other in order to work structurally and for any of the conflicts presented to be resolved. season 10 then is a response to this which shows the consequences of those dual resolutions: aka, sam acts just as unethically as dean does in the rest of the show, except this time knowingly and intentionally instead of subconsciously as he has been doing up to now (see: 1001, 1003, 1004, 1018, 1020, et cetera et cetera).

in order for all of this to work, the conflicts in season 8 and season 9 have to be equal. i.e. dean has to violate sam and his ethics as badly as sam violated dean and his ethics. it also has to be suitably Bad because it's revisiting a conflict that's existed in various iterations across the entire show. this is why it's also deeply important that 923 dean's death also parallels 222 sam's death, because it highlights how this conflict has always existed and how sam and dean are similar to each other. they both make the same choices under pressure and go to equally unethical lengths. which is why season 9 couldn't end until crowley told the audience that sam was trying to make a deal with him to bring dean back to life, specifically after dean begged sam to let him die. the point, then, was never about the violation itself: sam disregards dean's right to choose death just as much as dean disregards it. the season is about how sam and dean are at their cores the same, and it's about sam becoming aware of that reality and then actively, consciously choosing it. which is what sam reiterates across season 10, as a response to his choice in 923.

he only realizes that this is a Bad Thing in 1101 (i.e. after the response has run its course) when he says they both have to change. and the "both" is important because they are the same, fundamentally. sam isn't innocent of this violation of agency and obsessive deception of his brother, and he needs to understand that before actionable change can be made, which is what season 10 is all about.

and there's something poignant that can be said about 1023 being titled "brother's keeper," because this episode is about sam playing the role of brother's keeper, only for it to blow up so spectacularly in their faces that it causes the apocalypse 2.0. it forces sam to recognize that his original conclusion (that dean was right, and that he was lying) was not actually the correct and moral way to continue living. the significance of 1101 only reveals itself in the foundation laid by seasons 8-10, because these are the seasons about sam discovering just how down bad he is for his brother and accepting it wholeheartedly. season 11 then seeks to fix what seasons 8-10 broke, which is of course the entire fucking planet.

and this is the problem: the first apocalypse was caused by the absence of love, and the second was caused by too much love. their love is a destructive force that has world-ending consequences. that's the point of these seasons, what it all comes back to. in receiving the exact type and strength of love they needed from each other, they ended the world. and this is the conflict they need to resolve in season 11, or at least try to. because their love for each other can, has, and will destroy the world, over and over and over again. this theme can't exist unless seasons 8 and 9 mirror each other, unless season 9 is about sam's hypocrisy.

without that world-ending love, they couldn't have started the second apocalypse. if sam weren't a liar, he would have respected dean's choices, and he would have let dean die. if sam truly cared about bodily autonomy, dean would have died in 923 when he begged sam to let him. but he doesn't; that's not the point of the narrative. of course the violation of autonomy is important, because it provides the foundation for the conflict. but the violation is itself a metaphor, a triple whammy of symbolism: the possession is a metaphor for violation, and the violation is a metaphor for betrayal (as seen through the lens of deception).

the point of season 9 is not that dean metaphorically raped his helpless little brother; rather it's that the violation of agency goes both ways, and sam is a hypocrite for trying to maintain his autonomy while stripping it from dean. it's a continuation of season 8, which thus compacts his guilt over "abandoning" dean in purgatory and his self-loathing and fears of not being good enough or worthy enough of dean's love, which thus causes him to act recklessly and injuriously toward himself and dean. it's not a positive conclusion by any means; like i said, this is what causes the second apocalypse, and it's only after they've ended the world twice that sam finally sits down and says maybe they were wrong about this whole thing. maybe their love is too destructive.

in 912, sam says: "something's broken here [...] we don't see things the same way anymore."

in 1101, sam says: "this isn't on you. it's on us. we have to change."

sam goes from blaming dean to blaming both of them, because he realizes that they're both equal partners in their toxic, fucked up love. season 8 and season 9 allowed them to become equals by giving each other the affirmations they desperately needed to achieve true enmeshment, and season 10 is the consequence of that unhealthy relationship.

the point was never that dean violated sam. he does that over and over again throughout the series without destroying their relationship. the point is that sam is willing to violate dean all the same, and he had to face that reality head-on and accept it to resolve the conflict between them and give dean the affirmation he needed, just like dean gave sam the affirmation he needed in 823. the violation was simply a vehicle through which the conflict could come to a head, and the most provocative symbol this show could possibly use was the metaphor of sexual assault and rape, given sam's history with it via meg and especially via lucifer.

i've probably written enough now. the tl;dr is that season 9 invokes what can be interpreted as a rape metaphor not to vilify dean or even really to continue sam's ongoing rape narrative (though the violation that occurs in season 9 uses this as a foundation for the conflict and that's important to understanding the gravity of the situation), but rather to give appropriate stakes to mirror the primary conflict of season 8 and provide grounds for dean to get resolution for the conflict that began in 801 and continued through 923. god i hope this makes sense because now i've written this essay twice and i'm so miserable because of it.

my apologies if any of this is repetitive or meandering or lacking in any way; i tried really really hard to recreate my original essay and also provide more evidence and groundwork for my argument but obviously i'm sure i've missed some details and overlooked structure in many places. if you read this far, i love you and please talk to me about seasons 8-10. i'm losing my mind

[canonicallysoulmates]

J2 Main Panel Torcon 2022

The main panel started a little bit late because Jensen had a wardrobe malfunction, he jokes that his shirt fell off, so he had to change shirts. And Jared was an emotional mess and even cried a bit at the beginning of the panel because Tom has been at camp for the first time for the past 30 days so they haven't been able to see him or talk to him he was only allowed emails but today was his last day and only half an hour before the panel he got picked up and Jared was seeing the videos of him. And then Jensen also got emotional over it! He walked into the room to see Jared crying and Jared showed him the video and when he saw it he cried too, and then he showed Jared video of Arrow and JJ. So they were crying over their kids 🥺

When he started telling the story Jared got all teary-eyed again so Jensen rubbed his shoulder making sure his boy is okay, offering some comfort. Jared's crying, Jensen was crying, I'm crying 😭

First question comes from a fan who is re-watching the series with their boyfriend who has never seen the show before, and they want to know what is their advice to the boyfriend on what to look forward to, as well as is there a fav moment of theirs that they want him to look forward to? Jared says he really dug s6, s8, and s9. That the show just gets better. Jensen says wait for the musical. x

If they were in a Tim Burton movie which one would they be in? Jensen says The Nightmare Before Christmas, which is one of his daughters' fav movies. Jared says Edward Scissorhands.

Jensen says he could see him with the scars and the hands and the crazy hair that it's pretty much him every morning anyway...no comment 😏

Jensen has had two siblings named Sammy, which one did he like more? Jensen answers by saying that he learned a lot from his experience on Days Of Our Lives and Alison Sweeney was the one who took him in and showed him the ropes and he couldn’t have asked for a better sister to play opposite to him. But with Jared, he couldn’t have asked for a better brother to play opposite to. x

In spn Sam had long hair and Dean short, now the hair has reversed, how do they feel about that? Jared says it sounds silly but it’s a big deal, for 15yrs he had his hair long, it’s the reason he started wearing beanies. He, tells the story about being at the gym jogging on the treadmill when this girl gets on the treadmill next to him and when she's putting her info into the machine to do her workout she keeps looking at her arm- drops of Jared's sweat was falling on her because his long hair was flinging it everywhere. He says he doesn't mind having the short hair now.

Jensen says short hair is way lower maintenance but it was kind of a conscious decision from both him and the production to try and change his look a little bit so it wouldn't look like Dean playing Soldier Boy and then the long hair look kinda stuck around for a bit but that he'll probably chop it all off sooner or later. I agree with the crowd whose reaction was to go 'noooooo'.

Somehow things go from talking about their hair to Jensen's ass on The Boys, and Jensen's like "who wants to see that?" Of course, Jared raises his hand because he loves his man's booty 🍑

Jensen hopes Jared does go on The Boys because it's a lot of fun, and he hopes Jared gets the same experience he had of having to show up on his first-day butt naked in front of the cast and crew with nothing but a sock. To which Jared asks him "what size sock?" 🤣

Moving on, are the rumors true that Jensen asked for a scene with Soldier Boy to be changed, and what was it? Yes, it was and he’ll never tell. The only thing he shares about the scene in question is that he called Kripke to discuss it with him, telling him that it wasn't something he had a problem with from a creative standpoint but from a logistical one. Kripke just laughed and asked if he had found his line, and Jensen was like 'no, I'm not saying I have an issue but can we tweak it?'. At first, Kripke was just gonna scrap the scene completely but Jensen told him to keep it because he thought there was value in it from a character standpoint as well as from an entertainment standpoint so they just changed the scene.

He also mentions that he was very careful in how he approached Kripke about it because if Kripke learns he has found your line he keeps writing it, for example, the reason the character of Mother's Milk gets blasted with fluids so often is that the actor, Laz Alonzo, hates it so Kripke keeps writing it because it gets real reactions out of Laz. Like that scene from the herogasm episode- if you watch the show you know - that was a real reaction from the actor. x

Do they prefer playing the villain or the hero? Jensen answers that both are very fun to do; being the bad guy or the villain allows for a bit more exploration outside of what your normal person is; he doesn’t think most people are inherently evil so getting to do that is fun and getting to step outside the box. But playing the hero is also very satisfying as well, he grew up looking to the heroic characters and aspiring to be something like that so to get to put that suit or persona on and bring that to life in front of an audience is really fun.

Jared thinks the same. That playing a character that is good is really fulfilling and a joy to do but he loves the idea of exploring somebody who's doing really bad things thinking it's the right thing to do like the saying "everybody is the hero of their own story" so playing somebody who is clearly messed up from an objective standpoint but thinks they’re doing it for the good of the whole. That if he went on The Boys he would like it to be some crazy maniacal character like that. x

The next fan is thirsting over Jensen and being a bit flirty - I'll make the note here that Jensen does not seem uncomfortable he's joking around with the fan - and Jared makes the comment about working with these beautiful men on Walker and how he looks at them and is like "wtf have I done to myself?" Jensen was not having the self-deprecating humor, he calls Jared Fabio, says that every time he steps on stage with Jared it's like working with a romance novel cover and when the fan says Jared's the best Fabio Jensen understands the next Fabio instead and he says "the next? shoot. He's Jared. Just Jared." I 👏 love 👏 a supportive 👏 husband 💕

The fan's question is: in 20 to 30 years from now what part would they like to play? Jared says he wants to play a father, which he already does on Walker, but anyways this brings up fatherhood and Jared starts to talk about how when you're a dad you want to be with your kids all the time and in the crowd, someone shouts "don’t start crying" and Jensen was once again not having it, he very seriously shouts back "he can cry if he wants to!" and Jared gives him such a sweet hug- it’s classic j2 🥰

He continues that in 20 or 30 years he would love to be able to get a job, that he thinks for those in this life who are blessed enough to get to "advanced age" the more you grow in age and experience the more you have to offer and the more you realize how much you have to learn as well and he would love for the characters he plays to mirror that; he doesn't have a specific role in mind but Jensen jumps in and pitches Jared an idea that 10yrs from now he and Jared should redo Lonesome Dove- which I had to look up cause I have no idea what the hell that is, it's a western from the late 80's. Jared says he's in.

Y'all need to see the way Jensen pitches this to Jared because he does so while leaning back and playing with one of the buttons on his shirt like sir what are you doing? It looks like he's propositioning Jared 😂

Jensens, answer to the question, is that he doesn't think there's a certain role or type of role that he's hoping to be playing 30yrs from now that his only hope is that he’s still as sharp mentally and capable physically to allow him to play in the incredible world that he and Jared get to play in, playing in-depth characters and nuanced storylines. He comments that he’s flying to the west coast tomorrow to do a movie 👀 and says that he's realized a busy Jensen is a happy Jensen that he really, truly enjoys being on set.

Jared mentions they have a mutual friend who played Jensen's stunt double, and one time he said to Jared "man, I can’t wait to know you when you’re 60" and at the time Jared didn’t know how to take it but it’s the coolest thing he’s ever heard. x

What makes Jared’s hair so shiny? Jared says his friend Victoria makes it shiny when doing Creation cons otherwise he thinks it’s just the beanies. He asks the fan what makes her hair shiny and she replies brushing it 😂

Also, the boys start joking around, and someone in the crowd asks "can I brush your hair Jensen?" and now it's Jared who's not having it cause he goes "can you stay in your seat?" Husbands are in full force today!  x

How hard was it to leave Sam and Dean behind to go into their next role? Did they have to remind themselves that they weren't Sam or Dean, that they were Cordell or Soldier Boy? Jensen says he did; that he had some discerning eyes on him: Kripke who knew him and was very precise on what he wanted but also knew Dean very well, and Phil Sgriccia who was on set producer-director on spn for years and also knew Dean very well. Having them put pressure on him to not fall into the comfortable role of Dean Winchester, made him fight the urge to rely on that; he was consciously making an effort to steer clear of Dean.

Jared says it was similar for him. He compares it to taking like jujutsu classes, when he started on spn he was a white belt but as time passed he went learning more and went getting his other belts.

He feels he learned so much working with Jensen; in his 15yrs on spn he got to work with a super talented, super savvy actor who's a great guy. Seeing him as an actor, as a director, knowing him as a friend and as a brother both on screen and off so then when spn ended he was ready to speak a new language. He feels like there were things he would see Jensen doing on set or on camera, and specifically, the stuff he would do when he wasn’t talking- which makes Jensen wink I can't with these two

Anyways, Jared says he loves it sounds funny but he means it, and what he means is that even if it was Jared's close-up and he wouldn't be seen Jensen would be giving back all the attitude and mannerisms as if there were no cameras there so he was like "I wanna do more of that"; he grew with Jensen over 15yrs and kind of learned and studied and hit a few nice shots back when he could. To which Jensen says more than a few 🥺

Jensen brings up the 10,000-hour rule so basically if you do something for 10,000 hours you become a master of your craft. He says he and Jared became masters of that specific craft together, so if they were woodworkers they'd be masters at creating a chair but when they got off spn they were asked to make a dresser. It's different but they had to ask themselves what they could use of what they've learned from making the chair to make the dresser. x

Final question! Do they have a fav memory from when they were 16? Jared says when he turned 16 they couldn’t afford to get him insurance for him a driver's license but around 16yrs and 8 or 9 months, he got his driver's license and he remembers going on a drive for himself for the first time.

Jensen says same. He mentions he had bought a car with his own money when he was 15 so he had to wait months to be able to drive it. Legally. Because he did take it for a ride before getting his license. One night, his parents went away for their anniversary and left him and his siblings by themselves, and as soon as they left Jensen went for a drive, ignoring his brother's warning that he was gonna get in trouble which he did because his dad had checked the mileage and he noticed there was an extra 82 miles in the car. Part of his punishment was that he couldn't drive the first two days after he turned 16. x

The reason for this question is because the fan recently turned 16 so to wrap up the panel Jensen and the band sing the fan, and Jared, happy birthday 🎂

And that was Torcon! It was great, with lots of classic j2 and little moments and casual touches between the boys.

J2 Main Panel Torcon

[fighterkimburgess]

Hailey Upton for the character game

Ooooof.

Why I like them - She's always on the side of the victim, trying to get them what they need.

Why I don’t - She doesn't mind going across the lines, even when it's going to end up a bad thing.

Favorite episode (scene if movie) - I loved her in 8x04, we just learned so much about her.

Favorite season/movie - ...Again this is gonna seem ridiculous, but s6. The growth she had in that season, about what she could do, how she could handle relationships, I love it.

Favorite line - "Maybe we should talk right now." That moment when she's working out how to end things with Adam. She trusts him, she probably loves him as much as she can love anyone at that point, but she's still terrified of ending things. And she's so timid until he proves he's ok. I just...romantic upzek is awful, but their friendship gives me so much joy.

Favorite outfit - The chunky red and black plaid. It's just so gorgeous.

OTP - upstead I guess? I mean, I like them together, don't get me wrong, but I'm not as big a fan of them as other couples in OC.

Brotp - Platonic upzek. Platonic only.

Head Canon - She nearly turned down Intelligence when Voight offered her Erin's spot. She thought everyone in the unit - particularly Jay - would blame her for Erin leaving. She and Kim got lunch together the first week Kim was back from furlough, and it helped her decide to stay.

Unpopular opinion - ooooh boy but I've said this before so gonna say it again. Hailey Upton isn't some innocent precious who Voight corrupted. Did he probably make her more comfortable going outside the lines? Yes, definitely. But from when she was there temporarily in s4 she was willing to lie for the unit, to cross lines where needed. Voight sending her to New York was his attempt to make sure she didn't become him, because he knew she wouldn't be able for it. He's not going to let her take any fall for Walton's death.

A wish - that she gets therapy. Oh please, for the love and honour, get the woman therapy.

An oh-god-please-dont-ever-happen - don't open s9 with upstead engaged. Look, if they're engaged in 9x01 they're going to split up by 9x11. They both need to make sure they're sure, and Hailey needs to have her head together before such a big decision is made.

5 words to best describe them - devoted, concerned, vulnerable, grey, caring

My nickname for them - I don't have one.

[moishecampbell]

#and honestly imo had they actually followed up on how they set up the mark of cain arc in s9 this rs would've been much nastier but #they just nerfed sam and cas' rs in general. the half a glance beyond the ghostfacers affect we got in the sacrifice church scene.🤭🤭 - i know it's been a few days since you said this but would you mind elaborating? because i thought sam saying "another ANGEL?" in sacrifice was intriguing but then it was never followed up on so i tend to forget it even happened

hi thank you for asking even if i'm not sure if i'm enough of a sam expert to answer. it is a bit frustrating isn't it? i feel like the show - esp post gamble - is very aware of the fact that cas is there cause fans love him and doesn't see a point in making sam too antagonistic to him, so they don't let them have conflict even in situations where they should, which is. weird. [readmore as to not stick people's dashes sorry that this got a bit long and still a bit pointless]

on a more personal note - the reason i love that line is cause like a lot of people i'm a little unsatisfied by the way s5 resolves the s4 conflict. one of the points was that just like sam was being manipulated by hell, dean was being manipulated by heaven into mistrusting him (dean also has his reasons for mistrusting ruby - "she seems to know everything about lilith but somehow neglected to mention she holds my deal" and him being back fresh from hell but i digress), and it kind of doesn't get a follow up - ig bc dean redeems himself by convincing cas to rebel and cas redeems himself by, well, getting blown up for the cause sdkfjfs so the fact heaven manipulated dean is pronounced in his hatred for them but we don't really get to see how sam feels about his brother choosing heaven over him (where dean's resentment of sam choosing ruby gets voiced. the issue of s5 pivoting from the conflict of s4 is a complicated in general, i'm not saying dean's treatment was fair)

idk if that's what he meant in the church scene tho, cause there is the more specific context of sacrifice and carver era sam which is. Well. All That. his resentment of crowley is more understandable between him being the king of hell and him manipulating dean into taking on the mark, but his resentment of benny is a little more complicated and i think if you look at it in the context of sam's carver era arc - esp s10 - it's about sam's guilt for being unable to save dean himself? which could explain his resentment of cas, cause cas also saved dean from hell when sam "couldn't". but also maybe sam just hates it when dean has friends who threaten their relationship lol i mean the "that's what makes you lose your chickens" line gets interpreted in fandom as crowley's dean derangement syndrome but i do think it was crowley taunting sam that dean is MY Bestie Now (And Not Yours Anymore). in general i think carver era was about how sam is kind of good at lying to himself about how much he needs dean but he pretty much goes off the rails during much of the mark of cain arc, which was the whole point (s10 sucked ass at exploring dean and his violence at least imo. it was more about pushing sam to see how far he'll go to save him - and tbh they kind of sucked at that too but the suicide house was fun. either way i think that relegating cas to sam's side kick through that was incredibly stupid considering ... everything about cas AND a missed opportunity for drama between them but eh). i feel like people tend to take sam at his word even when the show makes a point to show that he's a little clueless and that's how people get to the idea that sam is not as codependent as dean, but also the show itself forgets it a lot cause most of the writers just don't care to write sam as complicated and dark, EXCEPT for my insane friend jeremy mystery spot carver

so yeah sorry that this is long but doesn't say a lot. personally i am ALWAYS thinking about that line but that's bc when s8 was airing i really hated the purgatory storyline so i was elated when sam said that like YEAH FUCK THOSE GUYS fdlkjskjh

[greatwyrmgold]

A fun post admittedly, but I disagree with your premise! Jack has plenty going on. He’s got a worldview, he’s got goals and desires, he’s got aesthetic sensibilities, he’s got things that annoy him for petty reasons. He’s fully characterized!

He has desires and aesthetics and pet peeves, yes. He has a personality, he's fully characterized, yes. But I don't think he has a non-trivial worldview or any particular goal in mind.

Like, yes, Jack has things he believes about the world, but nothing as substantial as Sophia's immature quasi-social-"Darwinist" beliefs. Like, look at his conversation with Harbinger.

“Then we run with it.  Everyone will have an idea who we are, after this, we can make a name for ourselves.” “We have names.” “A reputation.  Don’t tell me you don’t feel like there is something bigger, something better.  You call yourself Harbinger.  That’s all about the things to come.” “His name for me, not mine,” Harbinger said. “But the idea…  There’s something bigger than this, something at the end of the road,” Jacob said. “I don’t see the point.” “But you feel it, don’t you?  The rush?” “Yes,” Harbinger said. “Forget the stupid names and spandex.  Tell me your heart isn’t pounding, that you’ve never felt more alive than this.” [...] “If it’s a farce, a joke, let’s run with it.  We take simple names, dumb names, and we make people quake in their shoes at the sound.  Jack… Slash.”

—Interlude 21 (Bonus #1)

That's technically a goal, technically describes a worldview. Also technically a goal and worldview:

Jack shook his head.  “Oh, but there is.  Limitations foster creativity.  Tell an artist to paint anything, and he may struggle, but tell him to create something specific, in a set amount of time, for a certain audience, and these constraints might well push him to produce something he might never have come up with on his own.  We grow and evolve by testing ourselves. That's my personal philosophy.”

—Interlude 12

That's the closest we come to learning Jack's true worldview and motivation. His own interlude is intensely focused on either the immediate present tense or the specific goal of manipulating the Nine.

Assuming that the artist thing is genuine and not just some shit his shard told him would keep the Nine in line...it's thin and generic as hell. "Challenges let us improve." Wow. That's not a personal philosophy, my dude, that's common wisdom.

And look at what Jack does when he finds out he's destined to end the world. He basically throws shit at a wall to see if any of it sticks. The closest thing he has to a Big Plan is kidnapping Nilbog and seeing what Bonesaw can do with him, with a clone army on the side.

Jack doesn't have any big ideas. He barely has small ideas, and that's clear from his introductory arcs. When testing Cherish, he literally just copied the other Nine's tests. For all that he talks about his personal philosophy, he only implemented those limitations after someone suggested them to him. He thought that Oni Lee would be a good S9 member because...knives?

That last point deserves a little more expansion. With the debatable exception of Shatterbird, the Slaughterhouse Nine's candidates all reflect their sponsors in one way or another. Bonesaw sees Panacea as a big sister biokinetic to her little sister biotinker, Burnscar and Labyrinth were both mentally warped by their powers, Crawler and Noelle were both physically warped by their powers (Crawler reveling in being a giant gross monster, Noelle hating it), Cherish picked another of Heartbreaker's abuse victims, Mannequin picked a tinker with a transhumanist/cyborg bent, Siberian sympathizes with the primal brutality Bitch displays.

And what about Jack Slash and Oni Lee? Well, there's the knife thing, but Lee was more of a grenade guy. But Jack mentions that Oni Lee is an empty shell. And while sometimes the curtains are just blue, sometimes blue is the one thing unifying a character, backwards and forwards.

Jack Slash is a pale imitation of a full person (with barely more personality than a typical light novel protagonist), which is both commentary on the Joker-knockoff archetype and interesting characterization. It explains why Jack commits and encourages so much senseless violence, of course, but it also ties into the backstory that never gets explored in Worm.

(Which is kind of a shame, since that backstory is interesting both on its own and as it relates to his personality, but if every interesting backstory got an interlude Worm would be at least twice as long as it already is.)

According to Word of God, Jack Slash's trigger event was touching grass. Less facetiously: He was raised in a bunker, deliberately isolated and fed misinformation about the outside world to make him fearful of it. When he left and saw what the world was really like, that it was "fine," he triggered.

Jack being such a blandly villainous harbinger of terror isn't just pointing out how bland Joker knockoffs tend to be. It's also the result of an abusive childhood that never gave Jack the chance to develop into a complete human being.

Having put serious thought into a Hero!Jack Slash and the Slashketeers     Slaughterhouse 9 AU, where they’re still a nomadic band of misfits stirring up unbelievable disasters but not on purpose this time, one thing that continues to escape me is what kind of costuming choices a Heroic Jack Slash would make in comparison to his canon self. Like in my heart of hearts his aesthetic sensibilities/access to a competent costumer would probably be much the same regardless of his moral alignment, but the funniest option I think is a Hawaiian shirt