#if people wanted to talk about Jinx's feeling about the impact shimmer has had on zaun

[mollysunder]

I have a problem with the idea of a Jinx redemption arc. It's not that I have any issue with the fact that Jinx will be viewed as a hero to the people of Zaun. It's pretty obvious Jinx would be admired, she did a thing the people of Zaun wanted en masse for a long time. The thing about Jinx being the savior of Zaun is that it isn't really a redemption arc, because that's still just Jinx being militantly opposed to Piltover, a thing she always has been.

My problem is that the insistence that Jinx NEEDS to have a redemption arc takes away from the larger complexity of Arcane's worldbuilding. What does Jinx have to apologize for in order to be redeemed? Why is there so much emphasis on Jinx's character specifically to rectify her wrongs? And the way the fandom often defines Jinx's wrongdoings centers around a vague discomfort in her acts of violence and general instability.

What does it look like for Jinx to be "good", when the actions of many well-intentioned characters that the audience has an easier time being morally-aligned with either generates very little benefit or actual harm? No one in the cast sans Jinx and Silco have taken the material steps (as controversial as they may be) to deal with the problem that is Piltover, and Piltover has always been THE problem for Zaun.

The concept of a redemption arc for Jinx is so backwards because it asks Jinx as an individual to do "better" when it should be demanded of Piltover instead. How do you live to a standard that makes you morally good when the environment around you necessitates violence as it's own form of capital?

Sidenote: This all leads to the one real worry I have about Jinx and Ekko's inevitable partnership. Ekko is the character the showrunners treat as a guiding light in Zaun, which unfortunately makes Ekko an agent of the showrunners' biases. Case in point, Ekko's friendship with Heimerdinger, the architect of Zaun's despair.

If Jinx and Ekko team up, there's a chance she'd up end up working with Heimerdinger too. And it's like, "C'mon, really????"

[jayvikstolemyheart]

I want to know what would have happened to Viktor if he got the Jinx shimmer treatment from Singed.

The biggest thing is would it have fixed his leg and/or his disease. I’d also like to know how it would affect Viktor’s mental state, since it seemed to have an impact on Jinx mentally, but she was already pretty… ill before the procedure.

Maybe it could be that he still has to use the cane most of the time, but he can still do the small bursts of quick movement that Jinx can.

And for his lungs maybe the procedure helps, but because it’s a chronic condition he has to have continuous shimmer treatment.

But his mental state…

He could keep a steady head when he was doing his Shimmer + Hexcore treatment but in someways the Shimmer procedure that Singed use is perhaps more intense.

It would be so fun to see Viktor get a little drunk on the power. Using the same moves he uses when controlling the white doll in the council room (Not necessarily Jayce and Mel still being his enemies, just the vibes). Getting a little cocky, playful, because the first time ever the sheer effort of living does not cause immense pain and Viktor is giddy with the feeling.

I’d like to see Viktor get a little flirty with people, with Jayce (tho this is more my guilty pleasure speaking). Now that pain and mortality no longer weigh on his mind and he has more confidence in his body, Viktor feels like he can participate in the romantic/dating stuff he never had the time or energy for. Doesn’t hurt that he feels more attractive now having minimised his perceived flaws.

If Viktor and Jayce aren’t divorced during this, I’d love to see Jayce’s reactions. He would definitely be happy especially at first, seeing his friend life and a greatly increased quality of life. But I think Jayce would also worry about Viktor’s mindset. How Viktor seems to think that his value as a person has increased now, while Jayce always thought Viktor was amazing. And because the two can never communicate properly Viktor might get the idea that Jayce would prefer it if Viktor was always weak and feeble, sitting in the back corner while depending on Jayce to be the frontman. Of course that’s not the case but like I said, these two are terrible at talking about their feelings with each other at the right time. Some wrong moves here and there and we might get a Shimmer (Machine) Herald.

I never know how to wrap these up but I hope someone else can see my vision.

[alea-jottun]

How s2 betrayed Viktor, Mel and Jayce by making them passive characters

I had initially started to write a long post about the reason I didn't like Viktor, Mel and Jayce in s2, but I figured it would be better to just get to the point, which is : they do not work in s2 because they have become passive characters.

See Viktor : in s1, he is a determined inventor, has a strong will (manifested by his presence at the Academy, his desire to help Jayce, to break into Heimerdinger's office despite the risk, his refusal to be limited by his body, etc.) and a strong intellect, which is used to reach his personal objectives. He has strong opinions about his environment, about his work, and he has his own personality. He is shown taking action (ex : trying to cure his leg). His tragedy is that his health will not let him accomplish all that he is capable of. He is an active character : his desires, his skills, his choices move the plot forward.

But then in s2 : he gets fused with the hexcore while he's unconscious. He's magically cured. He isn't a scientist anymore. His relationship with Jayce isn't important anymore. He has a few lines before more or less disappearing from the story until the finale.

And before continuing : that scene where Viktor gets out of the arcane cocoon and talks to Jayce was the one that convinced me that s2 had given up on itself. Has anyone else realized how devoid of tension, of meaning, of scenaristic conflict it is ? It is not very long, but each line is like a wet fuse. They don't talk about the fact that Jayce made weapons out of the Hextech. They don't talk about the fact that Jayce betrayed Viktor by not only not destroying the Hexcore, but also using it to save him. They don't talk about Sky's death, they don't talk about the radical changes Viktor made to his body using the Arcane and shimmer, about the extremes he could have reached. They don't talk about the attack on the Council and how it ruined their efforts, how they were so close to making a great leap forward in realising their dream (I cannot believe that this major plot point, the cliffhanger of s1, the tragedy of the Council being attacked while voting freedom for Zaun, is not addressed by the two people who should feel particularly concerned about it. How are they not horrified by it ? How come it had so little impact on them they don't even mention it ? How come Viktor doesn't bring it up with Jinx ?).  

Each conflictual plot point, which should have been used to create tension and make the story interesting, was very carefully ignored. When Viktor walks away, Jayce doesn't even try to talk to him, or express any real sadness. This scene is just Viktor going "bye" and Jayce going "kay" (before he is whisked away by the scenario but we'll get back to this later).

Anyway, it doesn't get better for Viktor in the story. Somehow he gets magical healing powers, which is lazy writing. He does nothing when Jayce is clearly hostile, he lets him destroy the commune. Then he suddenly wants to turn everyone into puppets for one episode, before Jayce comes back in the story with a grand declaration, and then he changes his mind again because the show needs him to. All of this is passive : he is no longer a fully-fledged character but an OOC doll that the writers string along and put in a drawer when they don't know what to do with him.

And don't get me started on the "Viktor was the mage" revelation, which is the final nail in the coffin. In short, saving Jayce from jumping, inventing Hextech, their projects, their dream, their bond, all of that loses impact because it was not even their own decision. The main interest of Jayce and Viktor's arc is that they met each other by chance, decided to embark on a seemingly unfeasable project (carried only by their determination, their belief in each other, and their talent), tried to change the world for the better, and failed to protect their creation from the corruption of the real world. If it was all written in the stars, if it happens in other dimensions, then it loses most of its interest. If it isn't really their choice, it has no meaning anymore. It makes them passive pawns in their own story.

The same analyse can be done for Mel and Jayce :

Mel in s1 is a smart politician, strategic, cunning and manipulative at times. She is a nuanced active character, one who wishes to avoid violence and does not take pleasure in suffering, but who also places her own interests first and is not that concerned with the common good (as a council member and the richest person in Piltover, she is also guilty of abandoning the Undercity by her inaction.) Then her mother arrives and adds another nuance to her already moraly-grey character : we understand Mel's upbringing, her exile and her desire to not follow her mother's footsteps. She has difficult choices to make : should she prioritise Piltover over Zaun ? Piltover over Noxus ? Is it being a pacifist to refuse that weapons be made out of Hextech, or is it dangerous and naive to pretend your enemies won't use it ?

But then s2 happens, and you can scratch all of that. Writing political conflict is too complicated, let's just get her kidnapped instead (passive), put her in a magical cell for most of the show, and watch all this meaningless Blackrose subplot unfold (who cares about her father ? Neither her supposed nor her real father appear in the story, and Ambessa clearly is the Noxus leader, so what does her being an illegitimate child change ? Nothing. Also, lineage is a passive character trait). Now Mel has magical powers, without having done anything to acquire them. She gets out of the cell not because of her intellect, or because she cracks a code, or because she accomplishes any action, but simply  because she magically knows the solution (passive). And then, the resolution of her conflict with her mother ? A most unsatisfying magic fight. That's it. She didn't even struggle to master her powers. Just like Viktor, she didn't accomplish anything as a true character : she was just put to the side until the writers needed her.

And the exact same happens to Jayce :

Most of Jayce's characteristics from s1 are basically erased. He barely appears in the first episodes, then disappears in the wild runes for most of the series, and comes back towards the end, and suddenly he's on a rampage. His character arc is completely forgotten : remember when Jayce was slowly getting corrupted by power, popularity, politics ? Remember when he was an idealist getting dragged into choosing sides in a violent conflict ? An inventor who broke his own vow, made a weapon out of his own invention (against his partner's will), hated it so much he campaigned for Zaun's independance, only for a rocket to explode in the council room at the critical moment ? What does Jayce think about all this ? Well Jayce doesn't think at all in s2.

When he comes back in the third act (and no character cared about his disappearance, much like the writers didn't care about him), all of his previous dilemmas are erased (because that was easier than writing a satisfactory conclusion) and he has no problem using violence, killing people, and even killing Viktor while he is defenceless. We never get to see any psychological nuance for him : (barely) no regrets for inventing the Hextech and summoning the wild runes, no regrets when deciding that the commune must die, no regrets when hunting Viktor (serioulsy, he should NEVER have accepted to kill Viktor so easily). He gets out of the wild rune and suddenly he's the Terminator.

Until the last ten minutes of the show when he joins Viktor in the Arcane and now he's love incarnate. Then the writers desecrate his corpse one last time by making him spew the strangest lines at Viktor (he was dying, Jayce ! Remember s1 Jayce who was desperate to find a way to save his partner ?).

Again, Jayce did not do anything as an active character : he became a puppet who only moved when the scenario needed him to.

I'd continue with Ekko and Heimerdinger, but you see the point.

The scenario of a series such as Arcane is supposed to be moved forward by active characters making decisions, thus creating and resolving conflict. In s2, the scenario decides what it wants, then twists the characters to bring them where it wants, regardless of coherence or good writing. And even if Viktor, Jayce and Mel had been better written, they had so little screen time, the writers cared so little about them that their stories could not be anything but a disappointment.

[redlancey]

I hate people slandering Caitlyn for this because your telling me if someone killed your mother (breaking your family apart bc now ur dad is depressed and resentful and distant) (oh and now you have to carry the burden of being the face of your family’s house) (oh and ur only like 20) (OH and that someone was the deranged sister of your situation-ship who kidnapped you [and did god only knows what else while she had you tied up for hours] and you watched her shoot the missile) you WOULDN’T turmoil into rage and hurt and ache (because remember, you’re the new face of your family house, so you have to be strong in the face of this terrorist attack, and the only person who you feel comfortable enough with is the sister of the woman who KILLED YOUR MOTHER) and want revenge?! (Which, and I can’t stress this enough, it feels like you’ve been the victim of this deranged Zaunite for so long because you saw her steal one of the crystals, you almost got stranded in Zaun surrounded by shimmer addicts and almost kidnapped by Silco, finally found the criminal, lost her, then got returned to the bridge only for the sherif to hold you at gun point, then the criminal attacks AGAIN, then your situationship leaves you, THEN you get fucking KIDNAPPED from your shower by the woman, tied up for hours, gun held to your head, watched the woman kill Silco, tell your situationship to kill YOU, finally get a shot on the woman but you don’t take it, get knocked out, and when you finally wake up it’s to the image of the tower where your mother is getting a missile launched into it. THEN, while your still grieving and hurting, the memorial for your mother is attacked by more zaunites [even if it’s not the same woman, it still pushes the knife even deeper])

Idk. I don’t have a good relationship with my mother. But if I did, I’d probably go fucking crazy too.

But also, the same people who hate Caitlyn with a passion for her crimes are the same to launch into debates defending everything Jinx has done.

The whole point of the show is no one is right. Technically you can justify every characters actions. Morality is grey throughout the show, and it really illustrates how classism and poverty and privilege impacts everyone.

I love Ekko. I think he was within his right to be wary of Caitlyn. However, Caitlyn’s swat team specifically targeted Chem Barons (who, we see in one of the first sequences of the show started a gang war over trying to rise to the same power that Silco had, and these gang wars ravaged the undercity to the point of children [Isha, for example] living in fear and constantly in the run bc of the risk of being killed by these gangs) and Jinx. That’s it.

I will say, she does show her own dark side when she risks shooting Isha to kill Jinx, but I know that had she had killed Isha, she would’ve felt so much grief once her adrenaline had calmed down.

I saw people talking about this and one of my favourite arguments that someone (I forget who) made was something along the lines of: “Caitlyn assembled a small team of enforcers who were close to her and she trusted to follow her instructions, and perused the underground in a private investigation to find Jinx, shut down Shimmer (and any other chems, we can presume) and to “neutralize any agents still loyal to Silco” (the chem barons who are vying for the power gap Silco left). Meanwhile Ambessa was planning on declaring full on martial law (most likely what we see in act 2 and 3 after Caitlyn’s swat team failed and Ambessa manipulated her) which would’ve been devastating for the undercity, especially all of the innocents.

Caitlyn just wanted justice, but Ambessa wanted to conquer.”

While Ekkos argument makes sense, from his perspective, I will always defend Caitlyn till the day I die 🗣️🗣️💆🏻‍♀️💆🏻‍♀️

Thinking about how ekko is probably going to hate vi and caitlyn to the point he may never forgive them when he finds out what they did when looking for jinx

Because

Yeah

She proved him right

And vi did exactly what he was afraid of and helped.