#if mikes arc ends with I love you will or them just having feelings for each other

[gayofthefae]

True reason Byler is canon? Will's feelings serve no purpose for MILKVAN.

Honestly, I've said before I'm a bandwagon fan because I can't handle the heartbreak of it, so I was thinking of if I had to rewatch it and jump ship.

And I don't think I could on this one. It feels too much like "their love beats all odds and...!...overcomes...queerness? He was almost queer but they saved it and he came back to her?" what is the obstacle here?

You say it's the I love you, but then how do Will's feelings factor in at all? Because having 0 impact on Mike not only isn't how writing works but also the prospect of that was erased heavy handedly by the painting and Will encouraging Mike for the ily speech. Will's feelings must serve Mike's story, even if, unfortunately for the message to queer people, that is his story with El.

And that doesn't mean encouraging it. Will easily could done that as a friend. Often a love triangle in some way or another teaches you what you really wanted, I don't feel that they can successfully imply that he didn't know that was El, and season 4 does not show the realization that Will has feelings for him driving him further to El because he realizes, more like Nancy with Steve and Jonathan, that it IS her he really wants. Of course, honestly, the best execution of that would require him to be bisexual and have been considering Will but realize El was his true person.

But that isn't what happened. He already told her he loved her and went back to her and that wasn't the motivation for it. His actions on the surface were unrelated to Will, which means that they were motivated by him in yet to be revealed ways. Those ways could technically be heterosexual and platonic, but it remains true that a character must be impacted by the other's actions. Both must be or it doesn't serve enough of a purpose and it has been poorly written, a waste of time for the character receiving.

If all he needed was to feel loved by Will or to be encouraged, Will did not need to have feelings for him.

If I rewatched this show for Mlvn, Will wouldn't even be an obstacle they overcame, which he should be. Either Will's feelings for Mike and El make Mike and El stronger than they would have been without them or they exist to be satisfied and reciprocated. Those are the only two options, and as it exists, Mike and El do not have a threat to their relationship to be overcome as their entire issue has been resolved - "4 seasons of buildup", right? They did it. It's finished. And that wasn't Will's service to the plot. He DID have impact on it. But his romantic feelings did not. They had 0 bearing on his ability to help get them where they needed to be. His 4x05 advice on telling the truth was about him being gay, not his feelings, and what he passed on from El had no reason to not be true.

Will's feelings have no impact on their romantic relationship. We've covered that his queerness is important but his feelings are useless to his arc whether he ends up with someone else or not (he could have realized through an endgame boy or through Tom Cruise, it could have been anything and didn't need a stepping stone realization boy, let alone set-back heartbreak), but we need to also acknowledge that they have no impact on Mike and El's relationship, or anyone else at all for that matter.

If they do not end up together, his feelings are effectively useless. If you wanted active representation of life without actionable messages or themes, watch a movie about somebody's honest to God day to day that has no purpose or plot, just then going to work coming home cooking and going to sleep. I mean, it's accurate.

Bringing it back to Little Women comparisons, if Mike and El are endgame then that would make Will Jo instead of Amy. But Mike is still Laurie. And part of what drives Laurie is having the comparison of a different kind of love, even if romantic, to contrast his with Amy when he finds it, and his heartbreak matures him to where he needs to be when he reaches her. But this all requires him to have had feelings for the Jo character, and even if the contrast were used to show the difference between platonic and romantic, he would at some point have had to be unsure of that with the Jo character. The perceived romance with Jo would have also had to explicitly come first. These are all things that would have had to happen already.

There is one season left, yes. But the way the conflicts and timing have been written, it is already too late for Will's feelings to impact their relationship - that they would not been together in the end without his feelings for Mike specifically driving them towards each other, the same way I expect Steve's to be a wake-up call for Nancy.

Will's feelings would have to teach Mike or El something that brings them closer and overcome a previous internal threat to their relationship. But they overcame his threat without even knowing about his romantic feelings and as a result of actions that were not dependent on them - Will could have even said the exact same painting speech but as himself platonically, the hiding is what makes it romantic. They overcame it before Will's feelings could even get involved. So, yes, there is a 5th season. But they're supposedly closer than ever with the multi-season threat to their relationship gone, and they did it without the impact of his romantic feelings, so

They are useless. They are painful, unactionable, and simply would be a drag to rewatch - which is the opposite of their leading intention with this show. UNLESS, Mike reciprocates.

To be useful is to change the course of the story. Will did change the course through his encouragements. Will did not change the course by any use of his romantic feelings. Meaning from HERE, the course needs to be changed...and Mike and El's doesn't need any more fixing. So which direction do we go for them now?

I think that answers itself, there is only one. Away. We move away.

Will must break them up, it is the only thing left for them to do. And there is only one way that he could do that that cannot be saved.

Will's romantic feelings are useless to all parties unless Mike reciprocates and it is too late to make them useful if he doesn't. In fact, the only way they have been useful up until this point is if his feelings already posed a threat to their relationship, only possible by reciprocation.

"Mike is unimpacted by Will's feelings!" Really? Because if Mike and El were endgame he would actually HAVE to be.

If Mike had already had romantic feelings for Will, Mlvn endgame would be more likely. He didn't. His feelings are useless to every character in the show. Professional writers don't write useless things.

[chirpsythismorning]

When I suggest Mike’s arc is in part a queer coming of age story and not just him being some prize to help El or Will defeat the big bad—

Angry anons:

[phantajam]

my hot take about descendants is that NONE of the core four were ready for a relationship until maybe like, the third movie (rant in tags)

[chirpsythismorning]

It's okay! It's extremely likely this is going to be an early s5 plot twist to pay homage to s1. Though it obviously can't be identical to s1 with Mike dead/presumed dead/missing/injured throughout the entire season, otherwise that would be too repetitive. I think if anything it will be a 1-2 episode ordeal, with this having been foreshadowed quite a bit.

I do think that this arc for Mike in s5 could likely resemble his Paladin-hood and him presumably winding up needing to seek penance from a cleric (Will). Hence the upside down imagery with Mike going first and Will following:

Tapestry behind Jonathan's bed in s1-3

Tapestry behind Jonathan's bed in s4 (Upside down)

Upside down couch at Hopper's cabin

But most importantly, if we're indeed circling back to s1, Mike's first line could actually be giving us a hint for the beginning of s5...

You know what this reminds me of?

Dude is literally breaking the fourth wall to say this...

'How am I gonna survive a whole week without you guys?'??? When the week in question is not technically over yet? And s5 is opening right where we left off...

Especially considering the timeline for the s4 finale landed us on Saturday, March 29th aka one day before Easter. Meaning we're about to hit the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

And we already have someone in that role arguably...

But here's the thing... Will is also in danger. And I'm not even talking about the very in text indications he's in danger, I'm talking about similar subtextual coding we've got throughout the series, with the iron rod imagery...

I think it's possible we could see both Mike and Will meet an ill-fate. NOT PERMANENT! Just want to make that clear. It could honesty come off as one of them going missing and/or being presumed dead. I do think that Mike could likely go first bc it would match withthe foreshadowing of that Karen lookalike in front of the missing person's board at the end of s4...

It's possible they could pull what appears to be a bury your gays right at the start, only to subvert it just as quickly.

I think it's likely Will is going to be framed as being in danger a lot. It's the most obvious assumption everyone has. But if you think about it, if they're fine with us all thinking this and even insisting it... with Will's importance in s5 being one of the very few things they're even disclosing about s5, then that probably means there's more to it... And I think s5 will likely start with Will being in danger (with birthdaygate implications), and with Mike pulling a Kate Bush to save Will, only for Will to follow right after him...

I do have a theory for when this could take place...

Either as early as season 5 opener early OR more likely 5x02...

This shot could be hinting at not only something happening to Mike and/or Will by the 5x02, but it also could be hinting at lettergate arguably...

We know they kind of used Suzie at times in place of Mike, just like they did with a few of the other characters in those hectic Easter egg filled scenes at the Bingham residence. And within the context of this scene with 5:02 on the clock, it seems like they are hinting at the guilt Mike could have in store with the the newfound knowledge since returning to Hawkins that his monologue did not work...

This could also explain the filming rumors rn... Which are just rumors but within the context of something like this going down, with them being isolated from everyone for a bit early in s5...

What even is that thing behind Mike an ancient fan??? What the heck is up with all of these fans everywhere in the show

[love-byers]

milevens saying we're hypocrites for saying el needs independence outside of a relationship but wanting will to end up in a relationship is so funny bc it shows they have no actual grasp on societal narratives

women have had relationships with men forced on them since the beginning of time. women have been conditioned to believe they NEED a man in their life. they NEED to be dependent on a man. they NEED to get married and have children. and rarely to we get representation of female characters choosing independence from a man. im not saying all straight romance is bad, of course not, but in this context it would be meaningful to see el, who has literally never experienced a single day where she was not dependent on a man, not have her arc defined by her relationship with mike, and instead on her own independence, empowerment, and choices.

gay people, on the other hand, have been deprived of love and the ability to be in a relationship with someone they love since the beginning of time. gay people have been conditioned to believe that they cannot have love. they cannot give in to their desires. they cannot be together. in the 80s, teenage boys who experienced same sex attraction were literally told to ignore it because lots of men dealt with that and it just goes away and you can marry a woman like no problem. i mean do i really need to explain why it would be empowering to see a love story between two boys in a story set in the 80s? have these people never heard of the aids crisis????

its about challenging societal norms. it is normal for a woman to date a man. it is not 'normal' for a man to date a man. it is that simple.

and to those mlvns who say el can both be empowered on her own independent arc and still date mike, please stop pretending to want mike to have a meaningful arc in s5. you want mike to be a sidekick malewife for el, and that is exactly what he doesn't want to be. he doesn't want to be what el comes home to after being a kickass superhero. he wants to feel needed, necessary, and empowered as well. and that is simply not the dynamic of he and el's relationship. meanwhile, will is the one who encourages him and reminds him that he is a strong leader and that he is needed. will is the person mike wants to be a team with. mike and will empower each other and lift each other up and make each other feel capable and needed. they are a team, not a superhero sidekick situation.

if i see one more dogshit take like this i may just lose my mind. like please just stop speaking

[teambyler]

The most heartbreaking way Byler can culminate (and how I predict it will)

(pic from 80smayfieldz)

Just cry me with today, okay? :')

We all know that when Mike and Will confess their love it has to be EPIC. Like, extreme circumstances need to happen to make these gay boys in an 80s small town confess their love. It's the only way a romance with THIS much build-up over years should pay off.

Bylers need to watch this scene from the Season 1 finale of Agents of SHIELD (Warning: spoilery if you plan to watch this old show... and you will cry!) It's two LONG-TIME BEST FRIENDS but only one can make it out alive. A secretly loves B and has avoided confessing his love because he thinks it's unrequited. He finally admits it, to explain why he's making the ultimate sacrifice.

Now think of Mike and Will on a dangerous mission that is KEY to saving Hawkins. Maybe they're in the church that Noah and Finn are shooting a scene in. Will realizes only one of them can make it out alive, and decides it'll be Mike:

Mike: "There's got to be another way, that's RIDICULOUS! You can't do this, you're my best friend!" Will: "You're more than that, Mike (can't believe he said it, fights back tears) ... Now, PLEASE..."

This is my best prediction of how it'll go. WILL confessing to MIKE makes more sense writing-wise. Mike probably figures out the Painting Lie early in s5, but how he feels for Will remains a mystery. So how MIKE responds to a love confession is uncertain.

This is a season where the Duffers have hinted they'll highlight Will's courage. So he can finish his coming-out arc by telling the person he loves. The Duffers have said Will, always the protected one, the rescued one, will come into his own in s5. I think this means he gets to be the hero this time. It will be a poetic way for Will to finally thank Mike for everything he did for him in s1 and s2; it gives symmetry to their relationship. And it would be a heroic send-off for Will.

(And NO I don't think Will will die. We gays have already had our Reddie and Destiel tragedies. Will dying would go against how the Duffers have set this show up.)

What will Mike do, when confronted with losing Will forever?

We know how he felt once before...

Mike offers himself instead, but for the mission it needs to be Will. This is the last time he'll see Will alive.

Does Mike tell Will he loves him? We know the boy struggles with saying how he feels.

Mike begs Will not to die. He can't lose him AGAIN. He couldn't live if he did. When Will doesn't believe it, MIKE KISSES HIM.

Actions, not words. ("I didn't say it." "You didn't have to.")

Mike insists on staying. Will tries to make him leave, but he refuses.

"You've always been an idiot, Mike." Will doesn't know to laugh or cry. He's sad... not about dying, but regrets the years they lost not being together.

They kiss again and hold each other tightly... And we again hear Peter Gabriel, as the church walls fall and the world is about to end:

And we kissed as though nothing could fall And the shame The shame was on the other side And we can be heroes just for one day.

-teambyler

[ven0moir]

Will had hope ... and then lost it.

He had hope that maybe, just maybe, Mike and he felt the same way. And I think it started here:

Mike expressed relief at the idea of Will not joining another party. And Will's look seems ... surprised but joyful? Like he's picking up on Something the audience is not.

Then we have this:

I know a lot of people say he meant this in a friendship way. But I don't think he did entirely. I think he was 'testing the waters' so to speak, to see Mike's reaction to him asking something like this so forwardly--an action driven in part, possibly, also by frustration. Of course their friendship was his priority but he was also Sending Mike a Message. Speaking in code, if you will. And I'm not sure if Mike picked up on it or not, but he knew what he was doing when he used the word 'us'.

Then of course we have Mike's speech to Will in episode 4. The way he slightly tilts his head to the side inquisitively after Mike said 'It's Hawkins, it's not the same without you', as if he's thinking "am I dreaming? Is he really saying this?" And not to be meta but he might even be wondering if he's being delusional here.

On top of that, the speech prompted him to gather the courage to do this:

hope again. But then his arc culminated in this:

Will's facial expressions when Mike is self-depricating ... he seems so sad. In the second one, even Mike notices and cuts himself off to apologize for bringing up this subject.

I think he, sadly, realized Mike did feel the same way as him, but not in the way he had initially hoped. Mike, like him, is struggling with not feeling good enough for the person he loves.

And Will did not want Mike to feel the same way he did. So he did what we saw him do and give the painting to Mike, which symbolizes his love for DnD, for what they do together, for their friend group, for him. His intention here was to make Mike feel better. Important. Seen. Even at the cost of his own heartbreak.

"Every smile you fake, I'll be watching you."

So to recap, at the beginning of the season, Will had been acting weird and painting for someone he liked ( according to El ). We find out very quickly that the recipient of the painting was intended to be Mike. I don't think Will ever intended for the painting to be a full blown love confession--but a start. A continuation of the 'hint dropping' they started doing at the end of S3. But of course, the whole world went to shit, and his feelings got amplified to the point where the painting's meaning took a different turn. And it became the basis of a veiled love confession.

I think this is devastating because the narrative forced them, once again, down a different path from the natural progression this would've been had Mike been allowed to enjoy a nice spring break in California.

I do believe by the end of S4, Will has completely lost the last vestiges of hope he had left that Mike would ever reciprocate his feelings, especially after Mike's love confession. I think he feels stupid for even allowing himself to believe there was a chance.

I mean, look at him. And, terrifyingly, I feel like that is exactly where Vecna needs him to be at the start of S5.

Sprinkle in some #birthdaygate and voila ... we have the perfect recipe for a horrible Vecna vision.

I don't know how they'll resolve this, but it does feel to me that the intention of Will's S4 arc was to get him to a point of loss of hope, which signifies the death of his dream.

Going into S5, he probably sees this dream now as stupid and childish--an impossibility. Adding to this, there's no way in hell Will is going to confess. Not when this happened and it was never resolved.

The ball is on Mike's court, for better or for worse.

And I think this is also another plot twist we will find out through Vecna: the fact that Will had hope that he and Mike could be together and felt the same way. And that honestly makes whatever Vecna does to Will 10 times worse because if Will had NEVER had hope, then there's nothing new there. But having hope and then having it crushed to the ground? Yeah ... my heart hurts as I type this.

[byerseason]

why byler is the only logical way to end stranger things: a personal opinion

long post incoming. i've been thinking about what else can they do other than canon byler or is there any logical way which would please everyone. but i genuinely can't find any logical ending.

first of all, let's see the options i heard from people who doesn't think byler is gonna happen.

not adressing will's love for mike, mike never finding out about it and will's arc simply focusing on supernatural part : well, we all know that's impossible. not after spending a whole season to show us his deep love for mike. also it's confirmed that an emotional arc for him is what is gonna tie up the story.

"his love for mike was for him to explore his sexuality, he's gonna have another boyfriend." : they could easily show it to us without bringing mike into it. the byers moving to california was a perfect chance for it since it's a place better than hawkins when it comes to LGBT, they could easily give him a love interest, include him to their journey to find el just like they included argyle and give him a good character arc in s5, just like robin in s4. well, they didn't.

"mike is gonna reject will" : okay, then what was the reason of making him fall in love with mike? did the writers want to write a horrible story for the only gay child in the group? especially after showing us how miserable he feels about mike and how much he loves him? no.

now let's look deeper at the character arcs. my biggest reason to think byler is the only logical way is: will byers

i don't think i have to mention how much will suffered throughout the show and how he needs the happiest ending. they left season 4 at a point where everything about that love triangle is unresolved and they're obviously going to do something with it.

we all know mike is the one who understands will the most. he always been, since the very beginning. we've been shown that their bond is different and special. in a scenario where mike rejects will, we all know this is gonna be ruined. will is not gonna magically bury his love and go back to being besties with mike. and for mike, it's not possible for him to ignore will's love for him and stay friends as nothing happened. it would ruin their friendship for absolutely nothing.they can't simply take the only one who understands away from him.

will said he wants to spend the rest of his life with mike for two times. even if he doesn't have any hope, he desires it. so why giving him a love that he will never have? in this scenario will's character arc is literally "the gay kid always thought he will never have love just because he is gay, he thinks it's wrong and he is a mistake, well yes, he was right! he will never find the love and just watch the other straight people have it. thanks for watching stranger things." will's arc should be an arc where he is proven wrong, where he understands it's okay to love, where he is loved the way he loves, purely. otherwise his character arc is gonna be useless. where did we leave will in s4? he was thinking there's no chance for mike to love him and he has zero hope-- he ripped off the band aid. if mike rejects him the character arc and all the build up in season 4 becomes useless. he was at zero, and he is still at zero.

like i said giving him an arc where he is loved the way he loves was easy to be done without mike but now it's too late. they made it super clear that will doesn't want to be loved, he wants to be loved by mike. mike hurts him yet he still thinks mike makes him feel like he's not a mistake at all. that's not a simple crush. that's pure love. as a writer of a show you don't spend too much time to sympathize the characters love to the audience -something you never did with your other characters, at least not as much as will- you don't show them pouring their heart to a gift, just to waste it, just to make the character feel the worst they can feel just to make the person they love happy. will loves mike such a way that he prioritizes his happiness over his. this is what is gonna pay off.

the second character whose character arc needs byler: mike wheeler

mike has always been the most complicated character of the show, but most of his actions have no explanation other than him dealing with his own feelings. the show introduced mike as the leader of the party and i think it's okay to say he was one of the main characters in season 1 & 2. what happened after s2? a crazy character downfall. the audience started to dislike him and think he is useless. he didn't have any character development in the past 2 seasons. why? why? why?

because we all just watched him struggling. dealing with something inside of his mind that we don't know.

let's talk about a scenario where byler doesn't happen. this makes all mike's arc about being a love interest since s3. no development, no explanation for his behavior in the past 2 seasons. of course mike is traumatized and never talks to anyone which effects his behavior a lot. but there's still an unanswered question. why is he distancing himself from will specificially? the writers showed us that they understand each other the best, they know each other the best and notice if somethings wrong, so why is he distancing himself from the person who he needs the most as a best friend?

this is where we start to think if the problem is will himself, for mike.

why did we make will fall in love with mike just for mike to distance himself from will for no reason and make will upset? did we want will to suffer for no reason or create an empty storyline?

if mike is not how we think he is, he is going to end the show with an empty character arc who is nothing but a love interest, a side character. if mike ends up how we think he is, he is going to be the best onscreen representation of internalized homophobia. people think he is useless or just an asshole but he will turn out to be a perfectly written character who has his own arc.

people love to say "gay people didn't exist in 80s, byler would be unrealistic." which is completely wrong. gay people DID exist in 80s and they DID find love. did they have peace? they didn't. this is why mike and will are gonna be a real representation. we watched all the real struggles they went through. even if we don't get to see them as a couple, they will know they love each other by the end and that's what matters. and there's nothing unrealistic about it.

[miwiheroes]

Mike and El's conflict is not just about him not being able to say 'I love you.'

It's about the fact they just don't understand each other anymore. Even if he was truthful about loving her in the end, it doesn't matter. Their relationship's building blocks are still broken. Here's why:

"I guess I just don't really understand."

"I mean, you've seen it, I've been bullied my entire life."

"I know what it's like."

"I understand"

"Just please don't tell the others okay? They won't understand."

"Eleven would. She always did."

"No. You don't."

"What don't I understand?"

"I am different." "You think I'm a monster too."

I really don't think anyone truly realises what the Mike and El fight in season 4 does to their relationship. Yes, it is basically all about how El tells Mike that he isn't loving her in the way that she needs, and that Mike just thinks of her as his superhero rather than a human being. However, this is a total break down in their relationship as a whole.

Their whole relationship was built in season 1 and 2 on a certain type of shared trauma, attachment to the person who gave you care, fascination and most of all, understanding. Mike was attached to her in season 2 and season 1 and had the first inkling that he might have liked her because he thought, 'finally someone who understands me'.

That understanding is gone. I repeat, it is gone. In this scene, with the broken diorama, it is established that the fundamental building blocks of their relationship too, are broken.

Many people think that by the end of season 4, Milkvan is completely fixed. Because Mike said 'I love you' and y'know what, let's say he meant everything he said! What if he did mean that he loved her? (even though that's not the case but walk with me here).

That still doesn't resolve everything.

Wait. But that was their only problem, right? That was all their argument was about, right?

Wrong. Their argument was also about El not understanding Mike, Mike not understanding El. And this part isn't fixed. Mike still calls her a superhero in his speech even if he is truthful, he still makes her feel like she's not a human being.

But:

"You make [me] feel like [I'm] not a mistake at all. Like [I'm] better for being different. And that gives [me] the courage to fight on."

Mike likes the words that Will says, and if he believes the lies that he's telling him, then that means he also likes having that sense of understanding between him and El. But in reality, it's not there. He feels warmth for feeling like he's being understood/ he understands someone else, but it's not El. It's Will.

"I am different. I do not belong." vs. "You make [me] feel like [I'm] better for being different."

When Mike finds out that it's not El that he makes feel like she's not a mistake, and that it's actually Will, he's gonna have a lot of questioning to do. Because, as Finn said:

"There's probably a mutual understanding and acceptance there, I think." (in relation to someone asking about mike's feelings here)

Mike will find that understanding he craves so much in a relationship. Will already believes that Mike understands him and makes him feel like he's not a mistake. Mike will find that understanding with Will, because it's mutual.

Uh so yeah, this is truly why I think for Mike's arc and El's arc, it makes no sense for them to be endgame, because they simply don't understand each other. But it's not anyone's fault.

[conflictofthemind]

I can't answer a lot of asks I'm getting about my / your opinions on this leak because y'all are putting the leak right in the ask itself and I don't want to jumpscare anyone with possibly series defining spoilers!

However my opinion and analysis is as follows!

I agree that this makes whatever they're doing with the WillElMike love triangle messy as all hell. This is going to require some heavy lifting on the writing to not give off the impression that Will is, as so astutely put, "sloppy seconds". It changes the game a bit on my opinions of Mike's sexuality. I'm neither a gay or bi Mike truther because both interpretations feel equally valid to me. But now as to not invoke the previously mentioned trope, I think they'll have to explicitly make him gay and frame his relationship to El as comphet and a possessiveness resulting from trauma.

If I disregard the handling of the romantic aspects though, my possibly controversial opinion is that this ending makes total sense to the themes of the show. Some of the show's main themes are about childhood, nostalgia, and growing up. That's also what Spielberg was trying to do with ET.

ET is based on an imaginary friend he created as a child to shield himself from the trauma of his parent's divorce. EL magically appears to Mike to provide hope and shield him from the trauma of his best friend's disappearance (and his looming feelings for him).

Mike can't let go of her because then he'd actually have to face his trauma, his grief, his fears, his queerness. She's been his safety net for seasons and she's fought his battles for him. He finally starts to feel like something's wrong in Season 4. Mike becomes a very inactive character throughout this all and then having to rely later on Lucas and Will to help fix his growing relationship issues, so he can continue relying on her. All of it completely antithetical to him being a leader and you can see the degradation of character that has happened. Leaders don't rely on people, they are the reliable ones.

Not to mention Hopper's grief and experience with Sara never being something he could get over, and still isn't over to this day. He is controlling over El in Season 3 because of his helplessness over Sara. He's barely healed the wound - just put a bandage over it with the introduction of another daughter that he can use to ignore his grief. In accepting El's death (or departure), he accepts Sara's and finally moves on. Is it sad? Yes. Is it a lot more relatable to an audience of people who have lost loved ones and never gotten the chance to have a figurative replacement show up at their door and heal the wound for them? Yes. But through it all he has still found love and a family.

For a brief segue into Max, she's never really relied on El. You can see the contrast where Max directly opposes Hop/Mike and encourages El to make her own decisions. Max is more of a mentor figure to El. She's strong on her own right. It would be devastating to her regardless but has a lot less to do with her individual character arc.

I have thought this forever and have not been able to say it because of people who will accuse me of misogyny. As if I am not a lesbian feminist who runs a himejoshi (femslash) blog, almost exclusively stans female characters and has a vast majority female friend group but my opinions on El are just because she's a woman. But this is my honest to god interpretation of the work and if all fits what we are seeing plus the stated inspirations for the show?

[bylerpining]

A question I have for bylers is why do you take the van scene out of context. Mike was sad for El and even if he likes Will or not, he was looking at him like that cause he was giving him hope about El. All those looks and all...

going to try to answer this politely bc it seems genuine.

I don't think you guys understand the point of the van scene or what was actually going on... for one, you do NOT look at someone as if they are literally the person they're talking about. that just doesn't make sense. if someone you don't have feelings for is telling you about your girlfriend's love for you and how she made this great gift for you, etc, you're not going to be looking at this person dreamily with heart eyes as if they just morphed into your girlfriend??? this isn't taste by sabrina carpenter

if mike was truly only thinking about el when he was hearing those things, he would be staring at the painting, which is the only thing there that (he believes) is connected to el, not staring at will's lips and gazing at him lovestruck. and the writers would not even write this in if it wasn't purposeful. obviously, there is a huge focus on mike's reactions to will's words and the way mike is looking at will directly. it's such an obvious way to convey what's going on between them.

which brings me to my second point: the entire purpose of the van scene is to showcase that it's WILL'S words, WILL'S feelings for mike, WILL'S encouragement and belief in him that's making mike feel special and loved. not el's. therefore when mike makes his final grand confession to el that supposedly "saves" her, it's all based on a misunderstanding. it's null and void. it was will's love for him that made him say "I love you," not el's. which inevitably sets it up for them to fall apart. it's silly to think this will never be addressed and that was mike and el's happy ending to their relationship arc--a huge lie.

so no, we aren't taking the van scene out of context at all. it seems like m*levens just genuinely don't understand it.

[gayofthefae]

El's season plot wasn't Mike telling her he loved her any more than Will's was the painting itself. Both were treated as pretty important for about three episodes and then brought back at the end. That was A plot, and one that contributes to their overall story for sure. But the pacing itself of both plots proves them more of setups for season 5 resolutions than plots themselves (and, of course, what does that say for the one that's "resolved", but I digress).

They are smaller pieces of a larger story, displacing their season plot to be something else. We want Will to give Mike the painting and he does. We want Mike to tell El he loves her and he does. But those are very straight forward setup/payoffs, and not kept up with enough to be true plotlines for Will or El - Mike maintains a plot with it but only he does. Will's is about acceptance, achieved when Jonathan accepts him, set up and maintained by lines like "what if they don't like the truth" and "sometimes you feel like a mistake". El's was about leaving Brenner, the connection being that feeling unlovable makes it harder to leave your abuser.

But if their plots were unrelated, then the other things truly were just setup. Every time Will and Mike have a romantic seeming scene, it was not season 4 buildup - as many of us were confused in volume 2 thinking it had been - but seeds planted for future seasons. It was not required for the key arc of the season, nor was Mike's "I love you" curfuffle with El.

Will could have not had/addressed his feelings for Mike and simply struggled with acceptance of his sexuality and El could have had Mike tell her he loved her but argue that she didn't believe him because she was a monster and he must be lying - there was no requirement for him to actually support her belief and it could have been an opportunity to show just how deep in it she was.

But instead, they gave Will and Mike repeated intimate one on ones and had Mike fail to tell El he loved her. When Will's resolution was with Jonathan and El's with Brenner.

So if those plots were unnecessary to everyone but Mike's plotline at this timing, why include either of them at all? What is their purpose to him? Well, exactly the reason I realized Byler was endgame in the first place: the synching up and therefore implied causation between his moments (and conflict) with Will and his issues with El.

Mike could have had a plot that had nothing to do with either of them and the themes and climaxes of both of their season plots would have stayed the same. Mike NOT being able to tell El he loves her and he and Will both fighting and having intimate one-on-ones after were both for HIS plot, confirmed as both by the climax scene itself, which includes both. Because the setup has to do with both of them, there was no version of that climax scene that was just about El. It was always Will prompting him and him turning to El, because it was the culmination of his plots with both of them.

But, of course, you can't have two plots. You can only have one. And we've established that both El and Will's relationships with him were NOT their season plots. Which means that his inability to tell El he loves her and his conflict and following heart to hearts (including those unrelated to El entirely) with Will were ONE plot. ONE plotline that meant ONE thing as it can only culminate in ONE event.

They aren't Will and El's plotlines with Mike oblivious and only having El's. Because they aren't Will and El's plotlines to begin with. People understand that characters only get one. They just didn't take the jump to understand that closeness with Will and distance from El CAN be one. (They do, of course, understand this, though. Because in season 3, everyone knew that his issues with Will were a direct cause of his relationship with El. Nobody clocks that when it's swapped though. But the structure confirms it).

[butter-bubbles]

Why Not Making Byler Canon Would be a Massive Mistake...

Okay, so clearly the Byler brainrot has been getting to me. But this post will be about how Byler would fundamentally improve Mike (and Will's) characters, and making them canon would be an insanely easy way for the Duffer brothers to prove their masters in story crafting and writing.

Unlike a lot of people on this sub, I'm not one to believe Mike was secretly in love with Will the whole time and was using El as his beard to conceal being gay. I think there's enough evidence to prove that he was in love with El, probably for all/most of S3. I'm also not one to just ship two guys because I'm a "teen girl who likes f*tishizing MLM" like a lot of (honestly mainly misogynistic) believe.

I ship them for one simply reason: Mike, especially, becomes an infinitely more interesting, complex, and likeable character by doing so. I loved S1 and S2 Mike, and was so deeply invested in his character, his eventual reunion with Eleven, and his friendship with Will when I was younger.

And I never understood what happened to Mike between S2 and S3. Being a good friend was his defining trait of S1/2, so what happened that made him such a selfish and self-absorbed character? It never made any sense to me, and I just chalked it up to him being a cringy preteen.

But no one else has trouble maintaining a relationship and their own sense of identity/selfhood, even the other preteens on the show. Hell, El's whole arc is about moving away from this sense of dependence on others for her identity.

Now I don't think he was secretly in love with Will the whole time; there's just not enough evidence to say that he wasn't in love with El (atp) and I do think his feelings were genuine. What there is evidence for is that he fused his identity/self with being El's boyfriend, to the detriment of his friends, his girlfriend, and ultimately himself. He could think of nothing and no one outside of El, which is age appropriate but also deeply unhealthy.

There's also evidence to suggest that he feels playing with his friends and otherwise indulging in hobbies/anything outside of his girlfriend is a "kid" thing based on his fight with Will. In fact, he intentionally distances himself from Will, which to me indicates that he viewed Will as "childish" and too far from heternormative boyhood to fully indulge in a friendship with.

At the end of S3, we see the infamous awkward make-out session that was one of the first indications that Byler could be real to me. Because it just didn't make sense to me; I get struggling to say I love you, especially for an adolescent boy (even if they really mean it), but after El affirms her feelings shouldn't he look happy? Instead, he's just confused.

In S4, I believe that this is when Mike really begins to fall for Will (without even knowing it). He's so obviously jealous over who the painting is for, which just doesn't have a heterosexual explanation; he's paying close attention to Will when he should notice his girlfriend's struggling; he, for some reason, is still having issues with saying I love you even though there's been no explanation for why he can't; all he does is fight with El and seems more "in love" with (the idea of) her when she's absent.

I think what's happening here is he's realizing that everything he wants in his relationship with El, he gets from Will. Self-assurance: emotional intimacy: mutual understanding: and especially a need for him that validates his protective instincts. And I don't think he's even conscious of it, but he just can't hide it from his face (or his actions) at all.

I've been on the fence about canon-Byler because of David Harbour's comment about Mileven being firmly at the forefront of S5 and that moment in S4 at the pizza parlour where Mike almost confesses to loving El, which seemed incredibly sincere. And ultimately, I still don't know if they have any chance in S5.

But what I do know is that Mike and Will complement each other the most out of anyone in the show. They can complete one another, recontextualize all of Mike's incongruous behavior, and illustrate that the Duffer brothers are thinking about their story beyond basic (and outdated) tropes about teenage boyhood and douchey male behavior that emerges post-puberty.

So even if Byler never becomes canon, I will maintain that they would be one of the best things to happen to Stranger Things. I'd be content with another love interest being introduced for Will, but I honestly don't think anyone else could do this much for the writing and story as making Byler canon (at least not in a single season). Only time will tell.

[willbyersabyss]

What's your level of confidence in a Byler endgame and what evidence can you use to lead towards it?

I have 100% confidence in byler endgame.

Sorry this is longer than I expected, so evidence under here:

Like I said in this other post, the storytelling simply wouldn't make sense if byler was unreciprocated. There would be no reason to give Will feelings for Mike in the first place. If this were an unrequited love story, it would've concluded at the end of s3... maybe s4. They would've given Will a different love interest in California, which they alluded to at the beginning of s4 before settling for Mike again. They know how easy it would be to give him someone new. But they didn't. And they won't.

What's the point of giving Will an unrequited love arc? There is none. It gives Will something for Vecna to chew on? He already has plenty of trauma for that. They didn't know what to do with Will in s4? Sure, but why not explore how everyone is distancing themselves from Will? We could've had him feeling like an outsider because of his queerness and trauma once more, but the distance from Joyce, Jonathan, and Mike exacerbates it. He could just be afraid of losing his best friend because he's gay, not because of his feelings. The rain fight would factor into that. But no. That's not how it's written. He's in love with Mike.

"I'm not going to fall in love." And he did. It's not a crush, it's love. Will said himself that he'll always need Mike. That's not something he's going to get over on a random Tuesday. If this were unrequited, Will would have to move on. But he already admitted he can't. There is no satisfaction in rejection for his arc. It would do nothing but make him feel more ostracized and unaccepted. There's no lesson. It just confirms what he already believes: he won't find love because he's gay. He needs to be proven wrong.

There would be no reason for Mike to struggle with his relationship with El for two whole seasons, with Will being the only one he opens up to about it. Why can't they fix it on their own? Why does he need constant outside reassurance to understand his feelings for her?

Mike has a lot of insecurities and Will is the only one who helps him feel better about it. El makes it worse. El's struggles are also made worse because of Mike. They don't understand each other enough to help because they never try to understand. The one time they did, it ended in more misunderstanding. Then Will's confession "solved" this through... lies. Those weren't El's feelings. Why would someone else's feelings fix Mike and El's problems?

Even El's arc is fulfilled through their break up. Her story was never about romantic love. From the beginning, she's been longing for familial love. People think it would be unfair to El for them to break up, but romance was never needed for her arc in the way it is for Will. And Mike keeps trying to put El into a superhero box even though it goes AGAINST her entire self-identity arc. Mlvn's relationship does nothing for either character but set them back.

Byler endgame is the most fulfilling conclusion for Will, Mike, AND El.

[will80sbyers]

Obviously, part of his story is that Will needs to accept himself and be proud of being different, but the thing they focus on the most in his story is how deep, selfless, and beautiful his love for Mike is, and how sad he feels when he thinks he's losing Mike. The idea of losing Mike hurts him too much, and even the thought of just having to let go is painful. He says that if that had to happen, he wanted it to be like ripping off a bandaid, but the monologue was supposed to be that bandaid being ripped off, and it simply didn't work. He's still in love with him, and this will be addressed next season with the painting situation ✨

One of the things that makes me sure of Byler is that it's already clear to all of the viewers that absolutely no one in his family or friend group will hate Will for being gay. There's no doubt that Mike would accept him platonically because we have S1 where Mike beats up that kid for being homophobic to Will, and just knowing Mike's character he wouldn't be the type to be homophobic to his best friend, he would not give a fuck about that, ESPECIALLY if he was meant to be straight... so basically there is not really a decent story to tell there and Mike loving him too is the best story they can tell, the most surprising and happy and the most satisfying writing-wise

A story where Will confesses and is proud of himself but then gets immediately rejected by Mike is just such an ugly and underwhelming story to write, and it wouldn't make much sense to make so many explicit parallels to other love stories for byler and then focus this much on how beautiful Will's love for Mike is too if that didn't pay off at the end

This storyline would also help Mike's character arc, separating it from his fears around losing El to focus on a self discovery journey in general, we would see Mike gain more confidence in himself as a leader because of the type of love that Will has for him where he explicitly calls him the heart and inspiration of all of them!!!

Will's love for Mike gave him confidence VS. what we have seen happens to Mike when he's in a relationship with El... Eleven having superpowers and constantly choosing to leave him behind makes him feel like he's useless, he feels like he's not even Lois Lane in their dynamic now and her gaining independence growing up and not really needing him to be okay emotionally makes him feel insecure in himself... to the point he has resorted to pretending to be someone cooler than who he really is ( in s3 dismissing his love for D&D/games that are considered childish and in S4 arriving dressed as a "cool" surfer guy ) for the fear of her not wanting him anymore in her life in any way, clearly there's something not working out between them, love is not supposed to make you feel like that about yourself and it should be a natural and automatic thing that's coming directly from El resolving this problem, certainly not a 3rd person using his own feelings to fix their relationship.

This storyline would also tell a story of growth for both El and Mike at the same time, one where they let go of their first relationship that was based more on circumstance and fear of losing the other as a familiar person than actual intentional choices, and then they can show how you can still stay friends after.

I know this is the arc Melvins want for Will, but I believe it will be the other way around instead because... again, they focused too much on his love, making it too strong in the story to dismiss, and instead they showed how El was happy even without a relationship with Mike multiple times during the past seasons - they focused a lot on the relationships with her family and friends for her, it has always been what she needed the most and what she truly wanted 🌈

[love-byers]

i had the misfortune of ending up on mileven tiktok by accident and found some gold

dude. how many times do we have to say its not the fact that they're standing next to each other. its the fact that they're standing next to each other when all the other characters are paired off with their significant other with significant space between them. they are SANDWICHED between two couples that they have numerous other parallels with. like you have to be playing dumb if you think we're just saying byler is endgame because they're in the same proximity. and WDYMMMM MIKE ISN'T EVEN LOOKING AT HIM why does that matter?? the whole point is that they're all looking forward at the fucking apocalypse beginning. nancy and jonathan weren't looking at each other, joyce and hopper weren't looking at each other. why does that matter?? and holy shit watching them try to analyze media is hilarious. the byler commenter was very concise an respectful and ofc the mlvn has to be backhanded. no, the 2 minute scene of mike saying i love you is not random, it's actually meticulously crafted so that we're able to tell mike is lying...

uhh because WILL IS THE MAIN FUCKING CHARACTER OF SEASON 5 AND THE WUOLE POINT OF AN ENDING SHOT OF A SEASON IS TO FORESHADOW THE NEXT SEASON???

do they think we're making this up???

he is the center and lead of season 5 and his arc is going to tie the whole series together. but nah they just paired him with mike and left him in the background on the hill just because el needed to be in front. they could've done a million other set ups where it actually comes off that mike and el are a team and in love and want to work together. they could've had those couples together and then had will alone or behind them and done a close up like they did with el in the actual scene, but no, he had to be with mike. and not only is he with mike, he and mike are paired off together and CENTERED. the CENTER of season 5 is CENTERED in the final shot of the season and he is standing with his long time best friend who he is desperately in love with. and all of this is foreshadowing for season 5, which if you've forgotten, is all about connection and finding belonging with others.

"People talk about mythology and The Upside Down, and all that is huge, but the magic of S5 are the characters who find a sense of belonging with other and through that connection, become heroes."

"[Season 5] It's about a group of people who question their value, who find each other, and who find superpowers in connection."

remember when mike beat himself up and questioned his value as a person because he feels weak and powerless and stupid next to el and then will gave him a painting where mike is a literal knight in shining armor and and confessed his own feelings about how mike holds everything together and makes him feel like he's better for being different and gives him the courage to keep fighting and how he'll always need mike and that finally made mike feel reassured

yeah...

alright you guys have to be lying. you can't think of a single reason why people would ship byler?? not a one??? you know what actually, you're right. why on earth would people ship two characters where one is canonically in love with the other, they've been best friends since the first day of kindergarten, they are always a duo, they have a special friendship compared to the others, one said asking the other to be his friend is the best thing he's ever done, one thinks home isn't the same without the other, they hold hands, put their arms around each other, always look out for each other, etc etc ETC. no yeah i don't see it

was the person who confirmed this named mike wheeler...

no yeah we just say random things. those of us using the knowledge we gained in film school/creative writing school to analyze a form of media are just saying random things. i just love making shit up!

mlvns are so silly lol like they really think they know more about film/writing than people who STUDY IT AND DO IT FOR A LIVING