#i said technically bc to me they're more cultural & not as much actually referring to someone's gender

[king-of-the-rain-and-wolves]

@weirdfishy FISHY YOU CAN'T KEEP HIDING STUFF LIKE THIS IN THE TAGS WTF MAN

"I'm not materialistic but I got a thing for you 🎸🌻"

-

Extremely cool commission I got from Lisa@Twitter!

[mangokabuto]

Proof of Usopp and Nami being Luffy’s vice/co captains? I would (genuinely!) love to see your thoughts and evidence, bc big agree

(Context:)

Hello anonymous tumblr-using friend!

As someone with a lot of knowledge of & a great passion for real-life historical piracy, I have VERY STRONG OPINIONS about how the Strawhat crew would fit into an actual golden age crew structure. When I said "I have proof" I was jokingly referring to my knowledge of historical piracy and how the characters slot into those trends, not any sort of "in-anime/manga proof" of Usopp and Nami being ""co-captains"" with Luffy, so if that's what you're here for then sorry lol.

BUT if you want to learn a little about golden age western-world piracy, (and my "au" of sorts for how each crewmate would be recognized in that context,) stick around! :)

(extremely long explanation under cut LMFAO)

First off, as i said in my heated/j tags, "captain" did not usually mean what Oda makes it mean in OP's world. I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN Oda is just as passionate about & did plenty of research about historical piracy, and is clearly pulling a little from wakō history, but mostly from golden-age western piracy (specifically mostly the post-spanish succession period, to my estimation).

That being said. Why he puts so much emphases on Captains and First Mates is BEYOND me, because irl they were not as important.

The captain WAS important, don't get me wrong, but they weren't the sole reigning commander of a ship. They were more like a figurehead, most of the time. This is a sortof flimsy metaphor, but think of Captains like the modern-day king or queen of England; They're hyped up as the #1 leader, they're an important charismatic face for the group, and they technically have last-say on important matters, but they are beholden to two other groups (like the cabinet and the prime minister).

During the golden age of piracy, most crews were commanded by a group of three people. These three people were usually the Captain, the Quartermaster, and the Bosun. Each filled a different role on the ship, and all three were democratically elected by the crew. In all important matters, the three would discuss together how to proceed/solve the current problem, and though the Captain COULD overrule the other two at any time, that typically got him handily shoved overboard via mutiny. By technicality there was a heirarchy of power between the three stations, (with Captain usually being the top dog, then the Quartermaster, then the Bosun just above the rest of the crew,) but in practice they held equal sway in decisions that would effect the entire crew.

HOWEVER, outside of "big crew-wide decision-making moments" where you needed to assemble the three leaders, they didn't always have to coordinate. Depending on what situation the crew was currently in, one of them would be de-facto in charge of the crew, and the other two would step back unless the one currently in charge did something that needed to be challenged, like they made a bad decision or (in a more extreme case) broke the articles.

The Captain was in charge during times of battle. The captain's primary role was as a fighter, performer, and military commander! If the crew was attacked or about to attack someone else, the Captain would immediately take charge. (Now, real pirates weren't actually violent in practice as frequently as pop culture would have you believe, but that's a whole other topic. The reason "performer" is listed in the Captain's "jobs" is that part of their responsibility as a captain worth their salt was to scare enemies into surrendering without a fight through theatrics and reputation.)

The Bosun was in charge when the Boat was damaged or needed upkeep. The Bosun was not always the greatest carpenter or shipwright in their own right (in fact, in larger crews, they usually weren't either of those things), but they would be the one to get together with the shipwright and worksmen and assess damage, organize repair teams, and keep the boat running as well as possible. The crew followed their lead during repairs, and they were the go-to authority on any matters concerning the physical boat.

The Quartermaster was in charge the rest of the time. The way the Bosun is in charge of the physical boat, the Quartermaster was in charge of the crew. They were responsible for enforcing the articles, dealing out discipline, and the crew's general well-being outside of battle. In that same way that a bosun didn't have to be a shipwright, a quartermaster wasn't usually a doctor or cook, but they worked closely with them. Being in charge outside times of battle meant that the Quartermaster was also in charge of headings and navigation, and more often than not they were the ship's navigator, or head navigation/deck officer if their crew was large enough to have more than one nav. They also usually handled the crew's finances/pay and cargo. Is this starting to sound familiar yet.

So. After establishing the roles. I don't think I have to persuade you that while Luffy is most definitely the Strawhat Captain, Nami is our Quartermaster and Usopp is our Bosun. At the VERY LEAST this is true on the Merry Go.

You could possibly persuade me that Franky takes Usopp's place as Bosun once they get the Thousand Sunny, but I would be hard to convince. (I could be persuaded that Usopp loses his position as bosun on the Sunny, but Franky does not behave like a bosun as much as a head carpenter, and Usopp functions like his carpenter's mate. It's almost like, post-timeskip, they don't have a bosun anymore, and Zoro fills the newly empty position on the leadership trio?)

Now, these roles are not concrete, and they didn't always make up the "management trio" on a pirate ship. Some very small crews just didn't have enough people that they needed to single out their three favorite guys; they could just all vote on important decisions together. Sometimes the management trio included the surgeon or the first mate instead of the bosun. There were many crews where the Quartermaster was considered the top-dog highest authority instead of the Captain at all times. Even during the golden age pirate crews varied greatly, but the Captain/Quartermaster/Bosun trio was most common.

As for the ship hierarchy, there was a trend you could rely on no matter who the "three leaders" were. Everyone was generally considered of equal importance on a crew, (hence the elected offices and avenue for mutiny,) but there was a chain of command of sorts? Or at least people who would be shown greater respect and responsibility based on what they provided for the crew:

Captain and/or Quartermaster

Bosun and/or Surgeon/Doctor, and sometimes the First Mate

Everybody else, including captain's other mates.

Speaking of Captain's Mates... On larger crews, every important role on the ship had a "mate," or an apprentice chosen by the person in question to replace them if they should die, or otherwise be out-of-commission. Quartermaster's Mate. Bosun's Mate. Doctor/Surgeon's Mate. Carpenter's Mate. Etc. However, the Captain had MULTIPLE MATES, because his job was front-line combat focused. Ergo, he could easily die and need a replacement. Quickly. And his replacement could need a sudden replacement! So, depending on the size of the crew, the captain could have anywhere from two to eight mates, who were ranked by number. That's why the captain's highest-ranking mate is called the First Mate. Because there was usually a Second Mate. And then some more of em.

The First Mate's job is to be a good ass fighter, and back the Captain up on whatever they're currently doing. They hype the Captain up and enforce the Captain's decisions, no matter what that decision is. This is why they were usually not put in the management trio on most crews, cause you could imagine. The conflict of interest. (There's supposed to be three of them so that no one member has too much sway. Which could be sabotaged if two of the three are captain and captain's favorite soldier LMFAO)

I have no idea why, in the world of One Piece, all of the emphasis seems to be on Captains as the end-all-be-all leaders of their ship and the First Mate as the second in command. Especially when Oda clearly KNOWS about the other roles, since he's written characters that fall into them like perfect puzzle pieces!

...Well, okay, I have some idea. This is a shonen series for teens and being the captain/king/etc is wish fulfillment, and wouldn't be as cool for the projecting readers if you were part of a leading council with two other mooks. But. I can still be salty about it LMFAO <3

[phoenixyfriend]

Okay I won't include all of @nightfall-1409's tags but I do need to comment on some of this, because... well, I did say based on the text of the show, but I suppose we do need some context to explain one of these things:

#My actual issue with her is that she has made many individuals who by all rights should be “mandalorian” NOT mandalorian#banishment and exile and the stripping of ones identity are generational wounds that do not heal#She didn't just make Jango Fett no longer mandalorian bc of his role in the clone army her line is that he's not a mandalorian#because he's a bounty hunter.#Other bounty hunters from Mandalorian planets in the disney canon are also not called mandalorian#IE Rako Hardeen; from Concord Dawn bounty hunter and no longer Mandalorian

So, this is important:

Jango and Jaster, even in Legends (like I said, context from outside the show), were not born Mandalorian. They became Mandalorian. This quote from the wiki:

Charged with murder, Mereel was exiled from Concord Dawn, going on to join the Mandalorians. [from Jaster's Legends page]

What that means is... unclear? Concord Dawn is in the Mandalorian sector, definitely, but none of the people we know are from that planet are actually "born Mando." Perhaps in this regard, "being Mandalorian" is referring specifically to following a shared culture and religion, rather than a nationality? It does seem to apply to all of them, though, and if it applies to Jaster, then it's a much longer status quo than Satine telling bounty hunters that they're banned.

Though Concord Dawn was located in the Mandalore sector[13] and had a long history of being affiliated with the Mandalorians,[14] the Fett family living on Concord Dawn were not Mandalorian. [from Clan Fett's Legends page]

So this is all happening before Satine is born, and also before she was introduced to the canon. Technically speaking, none of Legends canon should have anything to do with Satine, but it's the only context I have for why Rako Hardeen isn't Mandalorian: nobody from Concord Dawn is unless they elect to become Mandalorian.

(Also, the "Jango Fett was a common bounty hunter. How he acquired that armor is beyond me." line was from Almec, not Satine, and always rang as being very 'deny the fuck out of any connection before they try to blame us for this war' to me. Being a bounty hunter wasn't why he was denied the Mandalorian label... that's more likely to do with George Lucas not liking Fetts, as well as G.Lucas trying to pull away from Karen Traviss's work because it didn't fit with what he, as creator, wanted Mandalore to be like.)

So, with the Rako Hardeen thing cleared, there's no actual canon to bounty hunters etc. being booted from the system; I'd assume they fall under a similar 'if you have a license, guild membership, and follow these guidelines about not taking out hits on leaders of the Republic or CIS, you're in the clear. If you do take those jobs, and bring the war back on us, you will not receive our support in a court of law because we told you not to do that shit and you did it anyway."

#She has obviously accepted the necessity of certain violent positions IE Cops and her Secret Police #but if you are in a violent position that is not backed directly by her state you're liable to be exiled

The question here is, what violence do you consider acceptable behavior in public? Presumably, some who enact violence go to jail. Some can, perhaps willingly, choose to go to Concord Dawn. But what violence do you view as being so important that it shouldn't be punished by criminal law? Again, the bounty hunter thing that you mentioned isn't canon; it's a result of fanon misunderstandings.

The exile really boils down to "if you want to shoot people without a license, you need to go to this one moon because I'm not having that in the streets here. We have enough problems."

(The parts about capitalism I can't really comment on more complexly than just "Mandalore is poor as Fuck due to the many wars and cannot afford to enter someone else's war.")

#with the one exception of exile and banishment and stripping of culture

Skipping exile and banishment, already pointed out what's going on there, but the stripping of culture is also fanon. Satine doesn't ban the language, the food, the armor, the art styles, the motifs, etc. What culture is she stripping beyond just "blatant imperialism"?

#especially if its to all non-state actors who participate in violent careers#the rub most ppl have with her is misogyny#and if its phrased as her needing to compromise like nah thats misogyny w/ extra steps bc women are expected to be the ones to compromise.#my rub is her pro cop stance and pro-state violence while being against non-state actors in the role of bounty hunter#and ofc she's pacifist but has got a robust prison system and secret police? Cringe.#looking specifically at studies around peace and conflict her form of peace is negative peace that relies on imprisonment#and cops and a military.

I can't comment on this section much yet, but my understanding is that the secret police are mostly a secret service type thing that's meant to investigate things that need delicacy (e.g. going undercover for white collar crime), and the Fucked Up Stuff was corruption through Almec. Other than that, she doesn't seem notably pro-cop beyond the basics of 'unfortunately, people are causing problems that welfare and the like can't solve, and we need to account for the fact that there are bad actors in any society, even if we as a culture and community are trying to Do Better."

(Though, given that this is a post about compromise: the police force possibly was a compromise... from the other side. Satine may not have wanted a secret police, but bent to someone else pressuring for it in order to be able to root out treason. Or maybe she did want the law enforcement, but didn't want it like this. Or maybe Concordia was a compromise, in that others wanted to just straight up arrest the people who incited further violence, and Satine thought it better to just exile them to the moon.)

@duchess-of-mandalore, can you weigh in on the cop part?

"Satine needed to learn how to compromise"

What in the actual show makes you think she didn't already compromise?

Why did the traditional Mandalorians NOT need to learn how to compromise?

What was wrong about Satine, in the actual text of the show, that makes compromise necessary?

I need you to give me an answer that does not echo "meet me in the middle, says the unjust man" for the trads who Just Want To Keep Their Guns. Satine canonically doesn't ban armor (people wear it), doesn't ban the language (she speaks at least two dialects, Korkie takes notes in it, and it's on all the signage), doesn't ban the food (no evidence for or against, because that's an insane thing to ban so why would anyone even touch on it), doesn't ban the culture except for saying "don't do war."

So, based on the text of the show...

Why did Satine "need to learn how to compromise," and what makes you think she didn't already do so?