#i need chloe to give us lesbians but the some of the gals have had sapphic relationships<3 l

[orihong]

also the tvd/flf universe is full of queer rep!!!! orion is a canonical bisexual and it’s not just like a throwaway thing!!! roz is demi!!! there’s trans charas, those on the aro/ace spectrum, and smmmm more and it’s delicious content 🔪

[pheacas]

“The Musical Fandom is Sexist” Response Post

I saw a post trying to express the thought that the musical fandom is sexist because there was a lack of f/f ships from @justiceforalanabeck, and although there is something in there, the execution was lackluster, at best, and I thought I would quickly run down a couple of reasons why I find that argument to be weak and a (slightly) more structured argument for my own personal opinion.

Original post (for reference I just didn’t want to reblog because it’s so long and there’s no ‘keep reading’ option on it): https://justiceforalanabeck.tumblr.com/post/182985916366/the-sexism-in-musical-fandoms

Summary of my thoughts I put at the end: There is a clear and slightly unsettling ratio between m/m and f/f ships within fandoms, but the ‘ships’ are not the end all be all of a fandom being ‘sexist’ and shows with women leads deserve more love, but there is still plenty of content created for the women that shouldn’t be discredited because it isn’t ‘ship related’.

My (6) main arguments against the original post:

I’ve heard people argue that Pinkberry is ‘toxic’ (which I can make an argument for just about any ship in popular fandoms), which can certainly keep it from becoming popular.  Although Jeremy and Michael have some toxic interactions in the show, particularly the middle, they’re clearly there for one another at the end of the day and are best friends and have nice relationships (although I’m indifferent on almost all BMC ships).  Chloe tried to screw Brooke’s boyfriend against his will and made Brooke not just feel like shit in that one instance, but constantly put Brooke down in general which she didn’t deserve.

Within the canon universe of Dear Evan Hansen, Zoe and Alana (Zolana) have zero canon interaction in the Broadway run.  Literally zero (unless you could the couple of audios where they interact for a moment in Arena Stage which I wouldn’t count since almost no one has actually listened to it).  I’m personally not a fan of Evan x Connor, but when it comes to it vs. Zolana, they at least interact for a moment in canon, and in the computer lab there is an opportunity where Connor does truly seem to be attempting to befriend Evan and it is established that, yes, they could have probably actually been friends if Connor hadn’t read Evan’s letter to himself and/or Evan didn’t bring Zoe up in it (although they would have still never gotten into a relationship).  Also, in canon, Zoe and Evan’s relationship is built completely by lies on Evan’s side, which is, again, extremely toxic (although it is a ship I prefer to Tree Bros outside of canon).  And also, it’s hard to say that the fandom is being sexist when that’s literally the only f/f ship, until you want to get into Heidi x Cynthia which is extremely weird territory.

The two shows you focused on have a male lead who the entire plot is centered around and focuses mainly on (with Michael also getting a good amount of solo time and being able to be called one of the ‘main characters’ along with Jeremy, Christine, and the Squip), so obviously the male lead is going to be more paired with people than other characters who don’t get as much focus on how they interact (in DEH we don’t go away from Evan’s perspective other than Anybody Have a Map and Requiem, which are Murphy family songs so no shipping there, and whenever we stray from Jeremy I feel like it’s more Michael’s part most of the time).

Heathers has never had a Broadway run and doesn’t have a long running production, so it makes sense it wouldn’t be ‘as popular’, although it certainly does have a fandom, it’s just doesn’t have as steady of a stream sometimes (and there is confusion under the tagging for Heathers and Mean Girls, as well, since they’re based off of a movie, although there still admittedly isn’t as much content, especially for Mean Girls, compared to the behemoths of DEH and BMC (although Heathers I think comes close to DEH)).  Plus, the hype train for BMC was really big in the summer because of off-Broadway, and West End revivals…  Don’t pick up as much traction (although the soundtrack coming out should bring more attention to it which I’m hyped for).

The use of Waitress as an argument for people not liking f/f is just…  Off because Waitress doesn’t appeal to a Tumblr fan nearly as much as other shows because it’s about a middle aged woman getting pregnant in an abusive relationship and cheating on her abusive husband with a man who is also married.  Wicked…  Also doesn’t appeal to a theatre fanbase that will write fan fiction nearly as much.

The Prom is another debatably iffy one because yes, it does really give us f/f on Broadway we need, but it puts many off because of how misleading it feels.  You think you’re walking in and the two lesbians will be the leads, but instead it’s a straight woman which can put people off (along with those first ten minutes I really like the show but not those first ten or so minutes).  Although again we still 100% need love for female-lead musicals and f/f in Broadway just don’t fake me out with the straights (although I understand why that needed to be added to prolong its survival in a business which throws out what the rich, old populous doesn’t like (which is why ETAJ and Bare will never make it to Broadway but that’s another topic in itself and a post for another day)).

My feelings on the situation: Looking at m/m vs f/f can give you a hint of how the fandom feels on female characters, but, in reality, that truly cannot be the be all end all when looking at a fandom.  It does such that we don’t get that sort of representation, but that doesn’t mean by itself that a fandom is sexist.  In most cases, these ships just make zero sense.  If we’re shipping something, there should be a slight basis behind it.  Galaxy Gals has nothing and Pinkberry has toxic interactions.

Waitress and Wicked don’t appeal to a Tumblr audience for the most part.  Mean Girls and the Prom are sadly left in the dirt compared to the other fandoms, but MG has a stigma around it by some of the big musical fans (including me) and the Prom just hasn’t gotten as popular because it doesn’t have a Broadway video more than anything (and those first ten or so minutes I legit clicked off the first time with my friend who is now a mega-Prom stan).  Heathers does have a good-sized fandom, but nothing big has happened to it compared to BMC and DEH.

Looking on Tumblr, though, you can find that the fandom still does appreciate the female characters.  Zoe, Christine, Alana, Brooke, etc. get a lot of fanart around them!  In fact, one of my trading friends named their trading stuff after a female character in BMC, and not Jeremy or Michael or whoever else!  The females do truly get attention in the fandom and calling them sexist really isn’t seeing the full picture.

Also, the part of the fandom who would be writing and reading this stuff is more younger girls, and they just have a tendency to prefer writing/reading about gay men over gay women and straight couples.  It could be seen as possibly sexism placed on themselves by the society they live in, but I think it’s just sort of a fetization of gay men that we’ve seen many times before (namely: Love Simon), mixed with the male leads get more development than their leading ladies and supporting actresses which just makes them easier/more interesting to write on because they’re already 3D.

But, yes, females in musicals and female-led musicals do deserve a lot more attention than they receive and it is sad that sometimes they don’t get the recognition they deserve, but calling the fandom ‘sexist’ for not writing f/f is just so wrong.