#i meant to be succinct but it's me we're talking about

[novadreii]

Your attitude and words give me strength! You're tough as nails babe. Any tips for getting over a breakup quickly ?

aw i'm glad! this is partly why i keep this messy online diary going strong lol

you didn't mention how far out you were from it/the circumstances, but some general stuff i personally did would be (for a non-amicable breakup where i was emotionally abused, constantly lied to and generally neglected for the last 6 months of the relationship):

therapy if accessible, but you don't need this to heal. i just had enough issues to where this breakup was the tip of the iceberg lol, and i really needed the guidance to point out all of the broken ways i think.

realize that this person's treatment of you (if it was bad) had nothing to do with your worth as a person. same if it was just simple incompatibility with no mistreatment; incompatibility is neutral. how someone treats you is ONLY a reflection of who they are as a person. repeat this messaging to yourself no matter how fake it feels. it will sink in over time. it's not your fault. you never deserve to be treat poorly.

you'll see a lot of "forgive them...for yourself." messaging. fuck that lmao. you don't have to forgive anyone. certainly not anyone who isn't sorry. your resentment/anger at being fucked over comes from a place inside of you that loves you and is protective of you. honor it. it will subside when it subsides. mine ebbs and flows a lot and i just let it. that pacifistic/manipulative narrative of "anger is poison" is bullshit. it's an integral part of healing and denying yourself the right to be mad that you were treated badly is self-betrayal.

LET YOURSELF FEEL. i cannot stress enough that fighting your feelings, or trying to dissociate from them with drugs/food/alcohol/sex will only delay this process. feelings you do not allow yourself to process get stuck and manifest in other ways you won't be able to make an association to. they don't just evaporate. cry when you wanna cry, rage when you wanna rage. keep an outlet and use it often (for me it's my blog and a paper journal).

contrary to the above, balance feeling your feelings with self-care, friendships, and trying new things! it helps to keep your mind from ruminating. you want to feel for an appropriate amount of time, but not ruminate, you know? i learned that rumination is actually a form of dissociation from your feelings and delays healing.

go no contact. personally, i never stay friends with my exes, because it keeps me stuck in the past. possibly the single most useful tool when evaluating if someone is good for you or not. you cannot continue to associate with someone who treats you like shit if you are still attached to them. they will fully take advantage of that. attachment does not equal love, so you need time to let the attachment fade so you can clearly reflect on what kind of person they are. you will be amazed at the kind of clarity you get once you let the fog of attachment fade. things that never occurred to you before just become...obvious. painfully so. the ways in which you were excusing their behavior come to light. this is so necessary.

do not break no contact for anything ever. seriously. that is giving your power away to them, again. instead of reaching out to them, journal what you wish you could say. my personal favorite is to replay all of the worst memories of how they treated me like an awful mental movie, of how i basically cried for 6 months straight, each and every time they looked at me with cold, empty eyes and knowingly hurt me when i was doing my very best. don't do this too often because it's not great to dwell and cause yourself pain, only use this technique when you mistakenly feel like you miss them. you miss who you thought they were, not the real them.

don't rush into dating new people. you will know when you are ready vs. when you are doing it to show up your ex/cope/distract yourself. people are not playthings or coping mechanisms. you WILL attract someone similar again unless you heal.

take up EFT tapping (brad yates is the definitive source for me) this helped me reprogram subconscious beliefs about myself (how i always attract people who hurt/abandon me, feelings of worthlessness etc). it feels silly and fake at first but i stg, this shit is like magic.

all of this culminates to realizing that nobody can give you the love and care you can and MUST give to yourself! this relationship has made me a proponent of the belief that it's hard to find fulfilling romantic relationships unless you love yourself first. you will attract people on the same vibration as you, so if you have healing to do you will also attract damaged people who cannot love you the way you need. love and respect yourself truly, deeply, and wholly. not only will it feel amazing to finally be on your own side, but you will attract people who treat you like the queen/king you are. it will also make you a better partner to them.

these are the major things that helped me. I'm 5 months out and feel like.....85% of the way there? i still struggle with anger but like i said, i honor and don't repress that side of me. the goal is not to move through this quickly, but to surrender to however long it takes to process this. ironically, that IS the way to move through it as quickly as possible.

you WILL heal, you WILL love and be loved again. don't let bad experiences taint and sour your view of people. there are good, kind people who can't wait to meet you out there. when you truly love yourself, you will not settle for anyone who doesn't match that level of self-love. you won't even contemplate overstaying your welcome with abusive, low-effort partners. take every failed relationship as a learning experience and you never really lose. <3

[themoonweaversden]

Messeges that were found so far: SOOS (spoilers)

This is just to collect all the codes that you can type in in thisisnotawebsitedotcom.com and their effects only (please click images for better quality)

Masterpost with all messeges / codes

Transcript:

"Sup Dude! Soos here, or as I call myself now "Mr Mystery," but I also call myself Soos too because that's still my name dude! Okay, so first, the GOSS, Tad Strange. Is Totally. Crushing on Woodpecker Guy. I ship it dude. I ship it HARD.

Anyway Mabel wanted me to write about the triangle guy? Dawg, homie is BAD. NEWS. Never trust a bro who can climb inside of your brain. And his book is sus and, to be quite frank, mid. I looked inside and just saw glitches and the words "HE'S UNCORRUPTABLE." What's that supposed to mean? At least holding the book made me look kinda smart, so 1/5 stars I guess.

Anyway Mabel told me to keep it brief, which is no problem for me, I love brievity! I can't get enough of it! Being succinct is like, super easy for me for some reason, I guess it's like a gift? Don't get me started on pithiness, let alone- oh dang I'm like, running out of paper?! LOL! That's what tape is for bro!

SOLVED!

What were we talking about? Oh yeah, my life as chief proprietor/tour guide/scam-magineer (Mr Pine's phrase) of the Mystery Shack! Running this place is an actual dream come true. To stop from pinching myself I asked Old Man McGucket to invent a Pinch-Bot but then it got loose and went on a pinching spree and had to be put down, heh heh. Wild times!

What's the shack like without the Pines? Well, it's got a lot more laser tag. And Questiony is back and MORE QUESTIONABLE THAN EVER! (Turns out all he needed was PANTS!) Every day I get to regale the children with yarns of enchantment and lore, and Melody set up this dope train that goes through the redwoods carrying baby goats. We're doing like... so good. Knock on on wood, but we're always saying "jinx" after talking and like, "anticipating each others emotional needs." Might be some little Sooslets on the way! WINK!

Mr Pines is gonna be away at sea for a while but he promised to not send me any postcards, which meant a lot to me. Dude is a real one! Anyway, I gotta go get some lotion for my cheeks. Abuelita and Melody have been pinching me at the same time a lot and it's starting to become a problem.

Look what I gotta deal with over here! Seesh! Stay cool, and if you're ever in Oregon stop by the Mystery Shack to see the local world record holder for the world's happiest dude. ME! Ha-ha!

-Soos "Mr Mystery" Ramirez

PS: Don't tell Ford that I got pudding on his cursed book!! Unless he likes pussing, then tell him to lick here ⟶

PPS: Did you know that you can turn any spoon into a spork with a few simple adjustments? I'll show you how any time dude!

PPS: If you see Bill, cover your head in tin foil and bring some ninja stars. And a bat, in case he ever accquires human flesh. Or in case you see a PINATA"

[meta-squash]

I really wonder how much Ian's early "relationships" with older men and all that affected how poorly he reacted to Mickey's sexual assault in 3x06.

The entire night before that morning is obviously a very positive one for both of them, considering the good mood they're both in the next morning, just before.

And then Terry shows up, and we all know what happens.

Later, in 3x09, Ian confronts Mickey at the abandoned building. I still don't fully understand how he doesn't connect the marriage thing with Terry, but he's a dumb kid and he's pissed off so maybe he's just blinded by his feelings.

Anyway, he asks Mickey who he's getting married to, if it's "Angie Zago, or some other piece of trash you screw so you can pretend I don't matter to you." Mickey doesn't really give any sort of response, which is fair on his part because Ian's being kind of an idiot. He gets up and walks away.

But Ian continues, and says, "So that's it, we're over? Your dad beats the shit out of us and you're just gonna get married, no conversation, nothing?" He grabs Mickey, who shoves him and tells him to get the fuck off. His retort, instead of listening to Mickey, is to essentially taunt him with the idea of fag bashing, and even further by saying "You love me and you're gay".

And I think what gets me, more than anything, is Ian's minimizing of what happened to Mickey. Again, maybe he's just being a dumb kid, with an as yet underdeveloped brain doing the usual selfish dumb kid shit. But he just doesn't seem to at all grasp the enormity of it all.

Terry hit him in the face, yes. Terry pulled a gun on him, yes. But he sat there and watched Mickey get raped with blood all over his face and a horrible dead-eyed pain-filled expression.

And I wonder how much his own fucked up relationships affected how he saw all of this. Clearly his own insecurities and judgements meant that he interpreted Mickey attempting to somehow appear/feel "in control" of the situation as him actually liking it or wanting it.

But it's Ian's misinterpretation/misjudgement that fucks everything up, really. If he had seen any of it for what it was, if he had understood what happened in a more clear way, if had expressed some sort of sympathy or understanding or even just awareness of Mickey's suffering, maybe something would have been different. But because he saw it all the way he did, everything except his own feelings about Mickey get minimized.

Terry didn't just "beat the shit out of them", he brutalized and traumatized both of them, especially Mickey. And his obliviousness to Mickey's obvious trauma and hurt in that scene in the warehouse is what fucks them both over. I think the way that Mickey obviously doesn't want to be beating up Ian is really important to the scene, and Mickey in general. He's back where he started, regressing because he has to, but there's this growth there that makes the act of beating up on Ian hurt too.

It's also such a succinct and awful expression of Mickey's complete helplessness in this situation. He's the most trapped out of any of them. Ian has his family to support him; he can tell them what happened or not, but whether or not they know the details they're still going to be there for him. Ian can walk away if he wants to. Ian has the luxury of yelling, of getting mad, of talking back, of being out, of interpreting the serious trauma of rape as just "getting the shit beat out of him". Mickey doesn't have that. Mickey doesn't have anything at this moment. And so Ian goading him, taunting him, accusing him, building up all this pressure that Mickey has no way of expressing or releasing because he has no one else, and he can't talk back, and he can't be out, and he can't brush off what happened to him, it all come to a head with Mickey kicking the shit out of Ian, because there's nothing else he can do.

He's totally trapped because he can't admit his feelings for Ian or admit that he's gay or any of those truths, because he's terrified of his father and he's terrified of what will happen to him (and also to Ian, probably). He can't really explain to Ian what's happening, either. I think he doesn't totally have the words or the ability to talk about it (it's too close, it's too intense, and the trauma is actively happening which makes it really hard to talk about) and I think also Ian wouldn't understand, wouldn't believe it or wouldn't just listen. He'd get involved, and Mickey doesn't want that.

Mickey's unbelievably vulnerable in this moment and he really really doesn't want to be that towards Ian, not when Ian is/was the only good thing and now has this power to hurt him. If Ian got involved, in whatever way, it would confirm Mickey's vulnerability. If Mickey explained what was happening and Ian was still angry, that would be a massive blow. If Ian understood and tried to help, that would be dangerous for both of them, and would also in a way make Mickey feel less in control. Instead, Mickey says nothing because it's impossible to explain, and Ian fucks up, and Mickey's reaction unfortunately makes sense.

And how much of Ian's complete misunderstanding is due to his own fucked up relationship to sex and relationships? How much of it is because he either can't admit or can't even realize that his own experiences are traumatic? How much is him blinded by his own feelings for Mickey and the anger and heartbreak and frustration that comes with being out while Mickey very much isn't? How much is it just Ian being a dumb teenager who doesn't fully understand what's happened? Or refuses to understand, because it's too traumatic?

[ihavedonenothingright]

Captive Prince: Historical References and Naming Conventions

Part 3

Aaand we're back at it for part 3 >:))

If it's your first time, welcome to my ongoing analysis of the historical references and potential interpretations in Captive Prince's names! Today's topics of discussion are Isthima and Artes, and oooh boy these are some fun (if lighter) ones.

Isthima

Etymologically, there isn't much of interest here; I have exactly one interpretation for the name Isthima and it's very succinct. That interpretation, however, ties into some very cool historical references on Pacat's part, and I really want to talk about those, so let's dive in.

There are very few words in Greek or Latin that Isthima could be derived from, and the only really plausible one is ἰσθμός—which we know in English as 'isthmus'. Just as a refresher, an isthmus is a narrow strip of land which links two larger areas of land together across a sea. Given that in the world of Captive Prince, Isthima is an island, not an isthmus, this choice might seem a little odd… at first. 

I'll clarify out of the gate that I don't think Isthima is meant to be Corinth. I'm stating that explicitly because in terms of the ancient world, Corinth has by far the most associations with the word ἰσθμός; the Isthmian games or Ἰσθμιά (Isthmia) were held there, and that was one of the Panhellenic Games, so… safe to say they had the isthmus monopoly. The reason I don't think Isthima is Corinth is actually quite simple, and it goes back to Isthima being the birthplace of Isagoras. 

If you'll indulge me a little, I have a few quotes from the (now defunct) interactive Captive Prince map that Tumblr user @hasensalat preserved here. We're told that Isthima "has its own dialect that is different to the Akielon language," but that is still celebrated because of its association with epic poetry. It was also, apparently, an independent city-state for most of its history. That immediately made me think of Ionia, a region on the western coast of Anatolia that maintained cultural and political independence from the Greek world at large for most of its own history (until Rome came a-conquering, but it actually maintained a good deal of independence then too). Now if you know a little about epic poetry, you might know that a certain poet was believed to be from the Ionian city-state of Smyrna—which, at the time, was itself located on an isthmus. That's right, folks! Homer was (supposedly) from Ionia: a region with its own distinct dialect that other Greek cultures celebrated in the context of epic poetry!

(I say supposedly because there's a whole debate about whether or not he ever existed, but the Ancient Greeks thought he did and that's all I need to tackle right now.)

I don't think I really need to justify or explain why Isagoras is our in-universe Homer; every Greek-inspired fantasy has its Homer stand-in, and Captive Prince is no exception. I do, however, want to applaud Pacat for giving Isagoras a similar cultural background to Homer. Little details like that give the world a bit more depth (and further demonstrate to me how much Pacat knows their stuff. Seriously, did they major in classics???)

Additional Information: Smyrna's modern name is İzmir, and it's the third most populous city in Turkey!

Artes

This one is nice and simple, which is good because I've somehow managed to bang out almost 3,000 words of Capri name analysis and my hands are starting to hurt. 

I've said before I think Artes is heavily inspired by Rome, and that mainly comes from its influence on Vere. The ruins mentioned at various sites in Vere remind me of the Roman ruins we still have in France, and particularly the ones in Arles… but I digress. So naturally, I'm looking at Artes through a Latin lens (oooh alliteration). In Latin, "artes" is the plural form of the noun "ars," which has a few different translations. The most common are "skill," "craft," "art," "conduct," "character," "strategy" and "science." The last one might seem a little odd to a modern audience, but in the ancient world, science was generally considered an art; if you've ever read the Hippocratic Corpus, in particular the text often translated as "The Art of Medicine," you're probably familiar with that usage. This is also where we get English words like art, artisan, artificial, and artillery. 

So at a base level, the name evokes this idea of craftsmanship, knowledge, and art: a sort of ancient ideal for Damen and Laurent to emulate when they combine Vere and Akielos. But I think there's also something neat about the way the many meanings of ars are reflected in Damen/Akielos and Laurent/Vere. Science was considered an art, but that didn't preclude it from being the pursuit of truth; it was its practitioners who labeled it an "ars" in order to legitimize it. And when used in reference to one's character and conduct, it really reminds me of Damen, whose changing views and ideals are central to the story. Not to mention its associations with strategy, in particular Odysseian tricks and wiles, which Laurent excels at. In a way, it's a combination of all the good parts of Damen, Laurent, and the countries they come from. And I think that's cool. So yeah.

Anyway, next time (so probably tomorrow or the day after) I'll finally tackle the cities! Tune on in for Ios, Arles, and Delpha/Delfeur (for real this time. prommy). 

<< Part 2

[havin-fun-imagining-twd]

"fondness" LOL

When -- directly after Scary as a sleepy kitten. We're back to season 2, slowpokes. We had taken a brief trip to pre-season 9 for Still beating

Is there a picture of baby Carl at the end as a prize? -- yes, just as Dale describes it to you!

What -- Andrea and Dale thought you and Daryl were a thing? Lol. But like why are you so defensive about it? While also being defensive about the mangy hick, oh, this is confusing...

Perspective -- 2nd person (you)

Pronouns - nada

Who -- You, Andrea, Papa Dale, and Glenn. Daryl's sleeping, he's concussed and fell down a ridge twice with a bolt hole in him, he needs his rest.

How long is this one? -- shorter, about 10 minutes!

TWs -- a few cusses, and reference to Carol's spousal abuse

Reading assignments -- How's your head? Part 2, then souls stripped bare if you want more emotional context, as well as Invisible tugging strings Part 1 but especially -> Part 2 , then Spell your last name, please. , He hasn't been himself, and Scary as a sleepy kitten.

All that for reading assignments?? -- reading is healthy, y'all :P

Choose your fighter: The Full + Official Masterlist vs Chronological Slowpoke Chapters Only (reading them in publishing order as opposed to chronological order is recommended)

have fun and happy reading!

“Ah, the culprit behind Andrea’s little conclusion. How are you?”

Dale finishes matching a pair of socks as he responds with a quiet chuckle, “Just fine, I hope. I see now that the conclusion caused some…offense?”

“Don’t be silly, Mr. H, you meant nothin’ by it,” you play off, and start to help his sort through the pile of clean, dry socks.

“‘Meant nothing by it’ implying there was some offense taken.”

You tuck in your lip, and meant to return eye contact, but you’re still feeling strange about the whole mix-up. With the simple words, “nazi-bike,” you tell him what you consider a fair reason to have taken some offense.

---------------------

20 minutes ago

“Y/N, I didn’t realize,” Andrea says, slowly walking beside you.

“Realize what?”

“You two.”

“Me, too? What’d I do?” Is she talking about how you’ve got the medical wrap on your upper arm, maybe? “Do you mean this?” you question, looking down at your shoulder.

She peers at you, head tilted to the side.

“You and Daryl,” she softly clarifies. “It was Dale who wondered first, after you had to excuse yourself.”

Me and Daryl? “What’d we do?” Perhaps she's referring to the search today? Andrea isn’t one to not speak her mind, you wonder why she’s not being more succinct. She doesn't know about you having shot that guy. Dale has an idea, but he's tight-lipped about it.

“So, you and he…?” she trails off.

?

So, you start to fill her in about the search. “Before Daryl found the doll, we’d—”

—OH WAIT, now you get it!

---------------------

Once you figured it out, your hands were raised in innocence and you kept your voice lowwww. “Ain’t nothing romantic happened between us two.”

And you weren’t fully sure why you were going into defensive mode so hard, either, but there you went. “C’mon, Andy, there’s a fuckin’ nazi symbol on his drug dealing, motorcycle gang bike,” you’d grit, doing your best to play if cool regardless of how weirdly defensive you’d gotten.

Forcing a smile to cover up for that fact that you licked your teeth in annoyance, you finished up, “He’s my friend, but that right there would be a deal breaker off the bat for aught else. And besides, back at the quarry, we noticed he didn’t seem into people.”

“I’m not entirely sold on that. Maybe, it’s simply that he’s shy and careful and not a pig like his brother was.”

Andrea then had peered at you as if she could see something you couldn’t, which disturbed and annoyed and for some reason thrilled you even more.

You thought about it, and supposed that he did seem to blush that time Amy was headlighting after the first rainstorm at the camp. A squall had come out of nowhere. Last time she ever wore that shirt without a tank top underneath.

Anyway, Daryl had immediately turned his head away, in fact, as opposed to (Merle, obviously, but also) even Glenn, who’d frozen when he’d seen. Amy didn’t know who’d been gaping, but you’d been on the hunt for anyone objectifying your new friend, so had been darting your eyes around like a cat getting ready to pounce, and took inventory of every glance.

That Daryl turned his head so readily was the main reason you’d felt safe enough to ask if him if he’d teach you how to hunt, in all honesty…

“It was his brother’s bike, not his,” Andrea next stated, very like the way older siblings will talk down to younger ones. “Merle was the head, and the dealer. Would you want to be held accountable for what your brother does, his choices?”

That simple reminder made your bow your head, and you could hear your pulse begin to thrum in your ears. You wouldn’t want to be held to Shane’s choices and actions. You still couldn’t (can’t) wrap your head around the fact that he’d just flirted with Lori. And kept flirting after she’d clearly been alarmed by it.

“Something Merle once said made it sound like Daryl wasn’t a big part of the gang,” Andy went on.

However, you got even more defensive at what you were taking as insistence of Dale and Andrea’s little conclusion. “And? He still rode or, or at least hung with them. He still wears the cut sometimes.” 'Sometimes' meaning that spate of a few days when he was particularly sad about Merle...

“‘Cut?’” she repeated, then remembered, “Oh, I remember learning that from Sons of Anarchy, it’s the um, that’s the Boy Scout vest that bikers wear, right?”

Ha. You were cracking up despite yourself, that was funny. Boy Scout vest.

“As for the bike,” Andrea added mildly, “painting over that symbol isn’t on his radar. I mean, routine hygiene isn’t on his radar.”

Nope, you weren’t defensive at all. “…So he’s grimy and desensitized to a nazi symbol. It’s a match.”

With a tut very-like what your eldest sister would make, she stated, “I didn’t remember what the symbol on the bike stood for at first, and I'm a civil rights lawyer. I thought they were stylized lightning bolts.” You heard her breathe deeply as she rested her arms on the livestock fence. “The symbol, the one on Merle’s bike, what’s it mean again?”

“Shoots-stah-full.” You’re bad at pronouncing it and were feeling embarrassed, so spoke it shyly. “SS is easier to say.”

“They were the secret police?” she checked.

“The secret police was the gestapo, the SS were another sort of special branch. Über-jarheads, I guess.”

“See? I only really remembered the swastika as being a nazi symbol, until you and Dale were talking about the symbol on the bike. It’s not unreasonable to think some things in Daryl’s education were forgotten or missed, too.”

That was the point in the conversation when the private knowledge of him having gotten lost for 9 days, as a young child, and without anyone looking for him, slapped you in the metaphorical face. The vivid, awful, and oh-so-fresh memory of seeing his scarred back punched you in the metaphorical gut.

Why did you react so strongly to her assumption in the first place? It’s not a big deal. You’d have probably assumed the same. Like, for goodness sake, you were the one who couldn’t keep the pet names for him from going on parade little over an hour ago. You'd cupped his cheek and kissed his forehead in relief that he was alive!

Either way, there was a (…sane?) inner battle in your head between being offended at Andrea and Dale’s conclusion versus being offended at your own negative reaction to it.

Bitch, he tossed the ‘hard stuff’ this morning, obviously he isn’t a user.

Still ran with the dealers, still was complacent and complicit with it all. And think about how cruelly he insulted you earlier today, how scary he was? You were expecting it to turn into his backhand. It’s something that was plainly done to him, you think he’s unlearned that yet? No, because you remembered how he grabbed you by your arm and dragged you back at the house until you cussed him out.

But then he apologized. Then, when you needed help, he carried you gently and made sure it wasn’t hurting you. You saw how careful he was being, and he isn’t good with touch.

Then he stole Mr. Greene’s horse instead of just asking like a normal person.

He also gave Carol that flower and told her the story to go with it, and meant it.

Before drinking about four beers last night and was hardly buzzed from it.

He carried, buried, and mourned that family of strangers with you today, he’s not some selfish deadbeat, Y/N!

Well, he chain smokes and drives a nazi bike!

And still almost died today three times to give the group—to give Carol—concrete proof that her baby girl’s been near.

Fine! Explain away the r-a-c-i-s-m.

That mangy hick saved Glenn’s life, he saved T-Dog’s life twice. He gave Jacqui extra root beer when she said she loved it, helped the Morales kids learn to throw a punch (and a kick). Y/N, he’s clearly doing some kind of weeding of the bad stuff in him and letting good things take their place, idiot, are you stu—

“Y/N. It wasn’t an attack on you, or a judgment. Amy told me how,” Andy paused to think of a good verb, “discerning you are when it comes to things like that. How strong your boundaries are. And how hesitant you’ve been to enter into a relationship for those reasons.”

She was diplomatic and tactful, you were grateful. You’d have just said ‘old-fashioned, kinda scared, comparatively prudish.’ Lol.

Crossing her arms as she walked, she then drove home, “Maybe I would have trusted your decision, if there was a ‘you two.’”

A slightly stammered “Okay,” was the best you could do right in terms of responding. Let’s be real, sentences aren’t your strong suit on a good day, never mind today.

Andrea stuck her hands into her belt loops and she ambled alongside the fence. You followed, looking out at the cows. One of them had twin calves.

“You gave him the benefit of the doubt before any of us,” she reminded you. “Are you backtracking?”

Your voice cracked when you tried to insist, “I ain’t backtracking on that, it’s j-just been a long day.”

“It’s been something else,” Andrea softly agreed. Her pace slowed a little and she placed her hand on your back as she continued toward the nearest cow field. “I saw Carol washing your stuff. Where’d the bloodstains come from?”

You shrugged. “My stitches ripped.” Ohh damn it, you said it out loud. “Wait, Andy, don’t—please don’t let Shane find out,” came out of your mouth in such a desperate tone of voice that you couldn’t not see a red flag.

“Oh, I won’t.” Andrea’s lips pursed, and she put a hand on her hip. “He’s been acting up.”

One word for it. You closed your eyes, and mumbled, “Thank you. He has been.”

“It doesn’t seem like you to hide stuff from him.”

Hide stuff? “No, it’s the…” After inwardly tugging the halyard to get that red flag down, you give up. Let it fly; you were hiding stuff from your brother, plain fact. Still are. For now, at least.

Andrea said nothing more about it. Again, you were grateful. You also felt stupid.

You stood there in silence for a few minutes, listening to the breeze, the mooing, the birds chirping, the cicadas buzzing.

Once the sun was halfway set, she lead the way back.

“At any rate, back to what we were discussing,” she relaxed her position and gave you something of a teasing smirk. “T-Dog is convinced Daryl’s a good guy, too, so what does that tell you?”

“That Teddy’s a saint,” you answered quietly, mouth twisting into an embarrassed grin. You may or may not sometimes remind her of what a catch you think T-Dog is combined with the fact that he’s single and in her age range. “Andy, where was all this goin’?”

“I have no idea, at first I thought I was being supportive,” she chuckled. “I guess: Daryl is proving to be a different man than we thought. And I’d say you know that better than anyone here.” She inhaled, then made a slight groan. “And, well, I did just shoot him, so maybe I’m biased.”

You held back a giggle. “So you’re tryin’ to set Daryl up to make amends?”

“Mmhm,” she sassed back. “Guess I’ll need a more willing victim.”

“Understood, let’s find Carol, she's half in love with him after today.”

“Perfect, let's get her. She’s probably hanging laundry,” was her initial sarcastic agreement. After a few steps in silence, she grew serious. “Carol needs to learn her worth before we can let a man near near her again. Especially one like Daryl.”

The first half of her statement sent you in for a hug. But the second sentence in her statement put you right back on defense and simultaneous offense. What came out of your mouth as you sought clarification, however, was unproductive. “Seriously?”

Per usual, Andrea remained unruffled. She held a hand up. “Based on what I know, your bar is high enough to do pull-ups on. Now, you’d help hoist someone up to your bar—and would kick off anyone who tried to lower it.” She gave you a pointed look. “Carol’s bar wasn’t only low, Y/N, it was taken down and used to beat her.”

The mental image struck right in the gut.

Blindly, you followed her past the grove of trees where Otis’ cairn lay, so offered a quick blessing in your head for him.

She turned back to look at you. “Do you understand where I was coming from, Y/N?”

You had to swallow some of the emotion down first. “I think so.”

“You and him, I’d be fine with, because your bar is set high and firm. It would imply good things about Daryl.”

After a sniff, you thanked her, that was a very generous compliment. And unfortunately, unable to not be a weirdo, you mumbled this dumb comment: “I can’t be hoistin’ nobody up until my darn shoulder is healed.”

----------------------

Now

“The motorcycle was Merle’s,” Dale lightly defends. Same response as Andrea, but with more of an understanding tone of voice. He was raised Jewish and lost family during the Holocaust, you know that.

Still, why didn't he react with more gusto, then? You hum and end up matching a sock somewhat aggressively. Which is not a sentence you’d ever have imagined thinking.

“Y/N, you can’t fault the man for accepting his dead brother's gas-friendly, easily repairable and reliable mode-of-transport that can go places bigger vehicles cannot. Him being able to go ahead and scope out the roads has been a boon. The emotional connection to the bike in itself would be understandable.”

“Yes, sir.”

He sighs. “My first thought was one of…how to describe it, uh, it was an...” he considers for a moment. “I suppose the best word is ‘confidence’ in Daryl’s character, if you had taken a shine to him.”

“‘Taken a shine to him?’”

“You know, a fondness for each other.”

“A 'fondness?'”

“Though I suppose the camaraderie that you two have is a commendation for him in itself,” he went on, eyeing you with something of an exasperated look. Good humored, though.

You scratch your nose. “I think we all have some kind of camaraderie or, y’know, a ‘shine’ with him after today.” It would be impossible not to. “To be fair, I couldn’t stop callin’ him pet names earlier. There’ve been a lot of up and downs we’ve gone through together the past few days, I’m not lookin’ too deep into it.” And you were merely so relieved that he was alive after getting grazed by that bullet, which is why you pressed your forehead to his and gave it a kiss.

“And he was injured, a circumstance which tends to encourage terms of endearment,” he kindly agreed. “Nothing wrong with that, kiddo. And there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that he’s not so bad.”

Nodding, Dale points his finger after matching another sock. “For me, what solidified it was when he found out that T-Dog had the blood infection.” He pressed his thumb and pointer finger together. “The man immediately gave us those antibiotics, as well as some painkillers.”

The recollection of that blessed relief trickled from your belly down to your toes and fingertips. And hearing that it had been done ‘immediately’ sent a tightness to your throat. You swallowed.

“However, it was before that, at the quarry, when I really started to trust that the, uh,” he raised his brows, then grinned briefly. “That the ‘first impression’ wasn’t accurate in several ways. One, I imagine you will remember, it was a few days prior to the supply run to the city. The last supply run, as it were.”

You nod. You’d been barred from going due to an uptick in getting migraines the previous two-ish weeks. Must’ve been the barometric pressure or something.

“Daryl had been looking for you, found fresh tracks close to the campsite, if I recall.”

Just then, Glenn walks over with his mouth full of something—oh snap, he’s got a container of honey wheat pretzels. Yay!

He plunks it in the middle of you and Dale and begins to help with the sock-sorting and laundry folding.

Like a starving Dickensian orphan, you zero in on the pretzels and quickly stuff a few too many into your mouth. Glenn finds this very funny, cracks up, and now you’re trying not to snarf as you desperately try to chew and swallow.

“I gave half my supper away,” you do your best to enunciate as you crunch.

“Glad you’re doing better after passing out earlier.”

You press a finger to your lips and subtly shake your head, just in case your brother would somehow overhear it.

“Anyway,” Dale gets back to it, with a handful of the pretzels for his own, “after I explained to him that you were indisposed, he seemed irked, wandered off. Some time later, however, he came back to me with a sports drink in his hand, asking if you’d left your tent yet. It seems that he intended the beverage to go to you.”

The memory kicks in and, mid-motion and mid-chew, you stop reaching to grab the mate to the sock in your hand. Another sensation spreads through your belly, a nice but nervous one. Your eyes flit up at Dale, who paused to take a drink from his water bottle.

“I hadn’t seen you or Amy leave your tent at that point, so let him know,” he narrated, capping his bottle again. “Except, on his way back to his and Merle’s spot, he slowed and crouched to look under the truck. Then, he held out the bottle.” Dale next makes a chuckle that probably qualifies as a ‘guffaw,’ it’s a proper old man belly-laugh. “And to my quite vocal alarm, a skinny, pale little arm popped out from underneath and took it!”

The name “Gollum?” is the unfortunately first thing that enters into your head and, yes, you say it out loud…but it’s cool, because Glenn happens to say at the same time, “Like Sméagol.”

“You’re such a nerd.”

“Look who’s talking, dork,” he pokes right back.

“My mind went to the two children hiding behind the Ghost of Christmas Present’s cloak, personally,” Dale muses, then continues the story. “Daryl wandered off on his way after that, but, naturally, I hopped down from the RV to see who on earth was under there." He lifts a shoulder. "I bend down to see who but our young Carl! The boy had already drunk half the bottle, said he felt much better for having done so. It seems he’d felt sick before and crawled under the truck to escape from the sun.”

Daryl gave your Carl a gatorade, too, and said not a word about it.

Good Moses, just when you thought you’d tamped down any notion of irrational affectionate feelings toward that mangy hick...

“With that, little Luis came dragging Miranda over with a cup of water—Miranda had been watching the boys while Lori was out foraging for mushrooms, Eliza must have been with Sophia and Carol.” Another sip from his water bottle. “Mmm. Those mushrooms were a treat,” he said mainly to himself. "Y/N, he found you later and gave you the beverage before you washed up, if I'm not mistaken? He came by with another bottle, I directed him to the quarry lake after seeing you head down with a wash bucket."

You nod. Was it obvious that you flushed when he told you the story?

Because you feel flushed, and that’s with the cool breeze outside this evening. You fold a shirt. Some undies. Match another pair of socks…then you figure you should say something, you’ve been too quiet and Dale is looking at you expectantly. “C-Carl does have a way of, uh, slippin’ out of sight.”

“Like a hobbit.”

“Just like a hobbit, Glenn, the boy coulda burgled us blind.”

Your friend remains mock-serious. “He still might.”

“He’s a tricksy one.” And with that, you take more pretzels. Maybe if you feed the butterflies in there, they’ll get tired and nap. Or, if you stuff enough into your belly, there won’t be enough room for them to fly.

“Hey, saw Shane’s setting up his own tent,” your friend mentions.

“Mm. Privacy will be nice.” You kept your face and voice nonchalant, except for maybe searching a little too intently for the matching sock that was plainly in front of yo—owww, you reached too far with your bad arm.

When you found out from Lori last night about the new baby and who the biological father potentially might could be, it’d felt like the seed of dread that had taken root in you however many months back, regarding Shane, had blossomed.

Now, after you caught him flirting with a very unreceptive and visibly shaken Lori, it feels like the plant shot up and was now pushing against your insides. It’s a wonder the irrational butterflies in your stomach even have room.

“That sound good, Y/N?”

“Huh?”

Glenn nudges you with the side of his foot. “Can you join?”

“Join what?”

“I told you, head was in the clouds,” Dale commented, kindly razzing you.

“Jimmy and I are playing board games later, we want you to come. Beth will be there, too. And maybe Maggie? I-I don’t know…” His cheeks turn purple-red. “Sound good?”

“Yeah, sounds real good. On the porch?”

“Yup.”

“Cool. I’ll be right in the house tonight, anyhow.”

“No way?”

“Way. Daryl needs overnight supervision, I think Carol might will be helping, too?”

Dale looks up from his lap. “Oh, did he enjoy the spam and eggs that she made for him?”

“Not sure, he was asleep last I knew.”

“Ah, that’s right, yes,” he remembered. “Well, maybe in that case she’ll have the pleasure of watching him eat and enjoy. I tell you, it smelled heavenly. She was very intent on making something special for him.”

The first half of what you said was totally innocuous, if maybe on the wishy-washy side.“Who could blame her? After today, she’s probably half in love with the guy.”

But then you followed it up with, “Who isn’t?” and you knew right then that you’d misspoken.

Dale’s made a point to keep his eyebrows level, as if that would help him hide his surprise and suppressed grin better.

But Glenn was under no such pretense, and your best friend dead-ass coughed his mouthful of pretzel.

“Dude—” you go to say.

He held up his hands after getting the pretzel bits off them. “I didn’t say anything.”

You held up yours, too. “I was bein’ objective.”

“Okay, Amy,” he said regarding your choice of word. Amy liked the word ‘objective.’

“Calling me that’s a compliment.”

“We are all objectively in love with Daryl?” he repeated. “Isn’t that a little…wait. Dude, are you saying you—”

“—It was hyperbole.”

“But you’re not, like, do you like him?”

“Now, Glenn,” Dale starts.

That surge of both self-defense that people would think you’d be into a grating racist or that one would be into you collided and was catalyzed with protectiveness against the poor man. That wonderful sumbitch has been on a solid redemption arc, let anybody try to deny it. “Define ‘like.’”

“Like like.”

“Bless your heart, no!” What is with people today? “However, I want you to think back over how he was when we done first met that mangy hick, to today, in terms of his behavior. Try and make like he ain’t grown. Don’t you love a good redemption arc?”

Glenn considered it. “Fair.”

The awful thought that Glenn might not believe you and might think less of you only worsens the mosh pit that is your stomach right now. “I’m gonna, um, g-go grab some of my stuff, bring it inside.”

“Wait, bumpkin, I wasn’t trying to, like—I meant it more as, um,” he can’t seem to get the wording right.

You’re making it worse, man. “Dude, it’s cool, you didn’t mean nothing by it.”

“But like—”

“—Glenn, I’ma start chargin’ a quarter for you using too many ‘likes’ per sentence.”

“Perfect, I’ll charge you for talking too hillbilly.”

Eh. You reckon admit you’ve been speaking a lot more twangy now than you had been at the quarry camp. There’d just been so many new people, you’d toned it down. Maybe being around more folk people who talk like you is why you’ve let it fly. “It’s a deal.”

“Good — you owe a quarter for saying ‘when we done first met’ Daryl,” he races to say.

“And you owe me one for how many likes you done sprinkled durin’ this here conversat—shoot! Did that count?”

“Yup.”

Dale, entertained by the looks of it, cuts in, “See, this is why I’ve been thinking that you two had a fondness for each other.”

“Aw, hear that, buttface?” you giggle, folding the last undershirt from the pile.

“Fondness.” He makes an exaggerated curious face and strokes what would be there if he had a mustache.

“You two expect me to believe there wasn’t fondness between you two?” Dale remarks with a bit of a tut thrown in.

“There still is, it’s just different now,” you insist. And immediately hop into gear to (gently) bust your friend’s balls. “Especially now that Glenny-boy here’s got his eye on a certain mystery lady.”

He’s right there with you. “And now that Y/N’s apparently hopelessly in love with Daryl.”

“There’s such fondness,” you barely manage to say without laughing, as much as it makes your newly stitched abdomen ache.

Dale sighs and throws back a gulp of his water as if it were something stronger. “Glenn, just tread lightly with the certain mystery lady, is all I ask. And Y/N, kiddo,” he looks at you. And winks? “I trust you completely with Daryl.”

“What?” Glenn protests, to which you just slap your leg and snicker “Ha!”

“If between you, there ever was a…” Dale pauses long enough for you to see the twinkle in his eye. “Fondness.”

----------------------

----------------------

And here's the picture from Dale's memory

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[unoisveimved-un-proffesional]

Hooooo boy. I'm having a field day with this one :)

Both of these sides attempt to shut down any and all conversation surrounding the topic and so I really think it's kind of stupid. Fictional characters are objects, we're not. I personally put a lot of care into certain objects, and how someone makes and treats objects does tell you a lot about their character. You SHOULD ask when you see a character depicted in a way "Why did they depict them in this way?" Dummies. I fall on the anti-freedom in fiction side on a philosophical level but pro-freedom in fiction on a practical one. Why shouldn't we ask why? Is it personal? Invasive? Say it. Say there is a deep personal reason for why I decided to write and make this thing in a controversial way and put it out there, but I'd call you a hypocrite. If you want something you made to get out there, and you put it out there, you've already exposed yourself and no attempting to hide will help you, people will just guess what you're thinking if they really care or are really interested.

There's no two ways about it, you're a real fucking person and what you make in fiction is only from that real person, from their perspective and ideas. The author is a funnel of which reality gets torn up and shot through and put back together on the other side to show its insides, or at least insides got through the author. Observing that authors work puts it through your own funnel and abstracts the core of the work even further from the reality it was extracted from. I think the new popular wave of postmodernist Death of the Author and all chaotic fictional philosophies of its type are kind of, short sighted and immaterial. The idea itself isn't that bad, but it's limited in its scope with its liberal succinctness. It, or more accurately the way it is taught by its largest following, presents very little room for expansion in either thought or action. The idea itself was a question meant to spawn more questions and unique questions for every instance it is observed in and every work possible to be made, one half of a full analysis. But that very first line of questions is being wrongfully capped with the most liberal of answers; "Don't worry about it." "Don't think about it too much." "Don't ask. It means nothing." In the delicate hopscotch of this logic, 1-23-4-56, you're jumping straight into fucking 100 from 1, that's what we call a leap in logic. You're skipping the whole. Damn. Process!

You still think those thoughts even if you never act on those things, and its in your purest best interest to ask Why? Why do I think these things? Whenever I think something particularly awful and disgusting, it's because my brain runs through possibilities, outcomes, hell even escape routes in case there's a sniper somewhere, and it has no moral or ethical boundaries on what possibilities there are. Naturally the most immoral and disgusting "possibility" catches my attention because it's inflammatory. I want to be a nice liked person so of course it immediately demands my attention, but I have to stop thinking about it once I decide that's not what I'm gonna do, because it's only a possibility I recognize unconsciously without boundaries and consciously put boundaries on. I'm woefully more embarrassed by the ideas that are explicitly offered to me as "Things I should do" rather than "Things I could do". Mostly because they're right. I also find the rhetorical conflation with intrusive thoughts and thought provokingly problematic (particularly fan)works, a little embarrassing. It really betrays the One-Size-Fits-All liberal framework they're working in.

Eventually you're not talking about Nazi's and Purists and obnoxious "good vibes only" fuckers, you're talking about critics and their reviews. Everyone's a critic, that's a fact, and a critic more than anything is someone meant to ask questions and look for those answers. It's why good critics observe, take-in, consume, and analyze what they're criticizing more than once, to look for those answers. Even if from the beginning they hate this, if they want to produce a quality critique they have to put it in front of them over and over again. Maybe by the end they realize they were being too harsh, falling into a fallacy, or they end up realizing it's worse than they at first thought or have their initial reactions reaffirmed, whatever the case, their case and critique is so much more valuable and strong because it has significant time and effort and work backing it up. Hell critique is as much an art as it is a science, it's like cooking. You can even think of it as fan-work, it relates to a thing they didn't really invent nor are claiming they did and expressing ideas about it, it's kinda like fanfiction huh? Should we tell critics, whether they're paid top dollar to say "It ain't thaaaaaat baaaad" or are out there on their free time telling a fic with 12 views "This is the most honest display of complete and utter incompetence of writing and literacy I've ever read", to just shut up and let people enjoy things? And not make their art?! Now you're the motherfucking obnoxious "good vibes only" people!

You hide behind an objectively true (at least i see it that way) statement in a way to combat the other idiot moralist liberals like yourself, but lump in with that crowd the analyst's, who make their own art and express themselves through the critique of other things, as equal opportunist attackers to make judgements on something as "moral", even if they're going out of their way to avoid moralization and focusing on just the factual, textual, and subtextual, posing questions about the nature of how something comes to be.

You're a reactionary and an obnoxious centrist, down to your personal philosophy, and you've given that demon an inch and it will take a mile of your life and obscure the wonderful world of ruthless critique from your eyes. What if it's not about whether I enjoy something or not? What if I want to use whatever you made as a platform to speak my mind on trends and ideas in our society? I'm doing it right now.

The answer should be clear, don't pass moral judgement, learn facts. Facts don't come from inside of you, they come from out there, they come from you engaging with out there, they come from conversation and observation and QUESTIONS. Never stop asking questions, never stop asking "Why is this bad?" "What is bad?" "Why is it built this way?" "What does it do?" "What has it done?" "Who is that?" "Why did they make this?" Never skip to the answer, go through the whole thing step by stop, hop by scotch. Never stop asking those questions, even when it gets uncomfortable. Strip it ALL down naked, exposing its skin than lay it down on the vivisection table and take out its heart, put it under a microscope, get its blood type on paper, while you're at it write down how it tastes, what it sounds like, how it jerks when you yank it, where it's soft and where it's located, do that with anything and everything you can get alone with, ESPECIALLY yourself.

I see what's behind the popular liberal pro-fiction opinion; disinterest and incuriosity, disrespect towards fiction and the nature and art of observing it. You're the author of your own model of the world, reflection of the stories you read, and the critic of everything you've seen. You should always criticize, if it exists. If you believe your criticism is worthy of an audience, make it known, shout it from the rooftops! Don't let anyone make the mistake of not noticing their mistakes! Don't let those mistakes fester until they become regrets! This isn't the realm of high conceptual philosophy, its a practice to be put into reality.

I agree with everything here in that post and its reblogs on a factual and surface level, but cannot disagree more with its philosophy and goals, whether OP or anyone involved intended for it or not, the reality of our social climate has slipped through in their words. It's obnoxiously liberal and idealist. It doesn't go the full mile. It stops at painting an opposition of thought so cartoonishly out of line all they have to do is state surface level intuitively understandable facts and not at all engage with the real opposition. I've been on this same side digging into an anti-fic once too, because you all have the same problems. You'd rather not actually think about it and just ignore the actually interesting conversations one could have about ACTUAL WORKS and not just the nebulous idea of a "problematic work" which you unconditionally fall into one side or the other of. I'm not the centrist! You are! I'm outside of this, I'm in the real world where shit gets so motherfucking crazy you can't help but ask Why. You're weak Sasuke, you lack Curiosity.

What am I getting at? Do whatever you want, it's all meaningful. Whether you like it or not, you're going to do it, and you're going to be confronted by the meaning of it. There is no "could" in this world, there only is what has been done, and what will be done next, and that is all that matters. Whether you like it or not, everything is connected, tangled up into a giant knot, and you can't stop anyone from following the threads. What happens in your mind IS real. What you put out from your mind IS real. It's all made of REAL things, put through the filter, through the funnel, tangled and up and rearranged, abstracted, and communicated. You should always ask

Why?

I really think everyone needs to truly internalize this:

Fictional characters are objects.

They are not people. You cannot "objectify" them, because they have no personhood to be deprived of. They have no humanity to be erased. You cannot "disrespect" them, because they are not real.

[bustyasianbeautiespod]

Episode 94 Transcript: Went Into a Weird Trans

G: Hello! It's Grey.

C: Hello! It's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who's seen this show many, many times- 

C: And I, someone who only knows about the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian. For today's episode we will be discussing Season 5 Episode 12, “Swap Meat,” written by Julie Siege, Rebecca Dessertine, and Harvey Fedor. Very many people. [C: That’s a lot of people.] Written by Julie Siege, directed by Robert Singer.

G: This is a Robert Singer episode! I didn't even notice.

C: Yeah, he didn't really have many zooms.

G: Yeah. I do think the directing of this episode was pretty fun. It’s nice, good for them. 

C: Yeah. Okay. Dessertine works as an assistant to Eric Kripke and this is her only episode.

G: This episode, I did like it. 

C: It was fine. 

G: It was fine. It was not bad, it was-

C: I would say it was bad-fine more than good-fine, for me personally, but honestly, I was just so stuck on how Dean didn't realize it was Sam, or it was not Sam, for that long, I just couldn't. It was hard to suspend my disbelief.

G: I think what it is is there's a “fine not fine” line. “Good not good” line. And then there's an “enjoyed it didn't enjoy it” line. And for those three lines I would say that it’s closer to fine more than not fine, closer to bad than good, but very much in the “I enjoyed it” category.

C: Yeah, okay, I think on the first two I would agree with you, and then on the last one, I think I didn't enjoy it that much.

G: As in you didn't enjoy it at all, or not that much? What's the-

C: It was fine on the enjoyment scale.

G: Okay, yeah. I enjoyed it, I think because I just haven't watched Supernatural in a while. And I was like, “We're back, baby.”

C: Yeah, we are indeed

G: We are back. The last time we watched an episode was three weeks ago. So- I like Supernatural. Who would have thought?

C: [laughs] You say this every episode.

G: I know, but it’s true! It's true. I do actually like Supernatural.

C: Many people would have thunk.

G: Yeah.

C: [laughs] Including your sister's boyfriend.

G: [laughs] Let's not talk about it! [C: Let's not talk about it!] Yeah. But you know, the moment your sister's boyfriend clocks you as watching Supernatural, it could be the worst experience in your life ever, and you just have to live with it. [C: Could be.] Yeah. What did you know about this episode before you started watching it?

C: Just that Sam was gonna body swap with a teen boy who does physics, and he calls him a virgin. Yeah.

G: Which is, you know, that's

G: I think it's a succinct but accurate enough representation of this episode. [C: Fair, yeah.] Yeah. I mean, there's plot stuff that's happening. But the appeal of it is that Sam swaps bodies with a seventeen year old.

C: Yeah, I think I just didn't get into it, because some episodes are only meant to be funny, but it still exists in the larger world of Supernatural. So then I don't know where to place this in the canonicity of it.

G: You think this isn’t canon, or- what's happening?

C: I think it is canon. It's just hard for me to reconcile it with the rest of canon. Also remember how two weeks ago Lucifer literally raised Death? [G laughs] Are we gonna get back to that? [G: Yeah.] Does that not change anything about the state of the world?

G: It's so funny later on when Gary was in Sam’s body, and Dean hasn't clocked it yet. He was like, “Oh, the plan! And what's gonna make me feel better is kicking some ass!” [C laughs] And I was like, even Gary [C: Just like in Supernatural post.] has subscribed fully to this belief system, good on him. [C: Yeah.] I think I understand what you mean that this is difficult to reconcile yet with the canon of the show, because it doesn't feel like it fits. Yeah, it does feel like something that they just made up. And I know everything is made up in a TV show like Supernatural. [C: But they especially made it up.] This especially, it feels kind of fanficcy, in a way? But not like that kind of fanficcy, more like somebody just had a “wouldn’t it be so funny if” and then they did it.

C: Yeah, it was based around [G: A concept.] a fun scenario for a case, and I don't know if it's particularly grounded in the rest of the happenings of Season 5, or even Sam and Dean's characterization.

G: That is fascinating to think about, because there are definitely episodes that are concept episodes but feel real. [C: Yeah, like “What Is And Never Should Be.”] Like “It’s A Terrible Life,” it's a concept episode, “What Is And Never Should Be,” which I've been thinking about, because our next episode is I don't know if you know, it's “The Song Remains the Same.” [C: Oh, nice!] So I've been thinking a lot about the other Mary episodes, and the other Led Zeppelin long title episodes when I was pondering over that. This one doesn't feel that real? But sometimes Supernatural does that, I feel, and I forget about it promptly.

C: Yeah, it’s just wild that “The Real Ghostbusters” felt like a real episode, and this one doesn't.

G: Yeah, I don't know what it is. I feel like this one actually feels like such a late Supernatural episode. Because this is like the kind of shenanigans they get up to over there. [C: Yeah, it’s just a romp. Especially with the way that the side characters do actually feel like they're there. They're given screen time, they're given motivations, or whatever. It feels closer to what Supernatural becomes later on. You're right. This is an odd episode in that way. I think maybe that's a little bit of the reason why I enjoyed it. Because it's like, “Oh, they’re trying something new. Yeah.

C: Yeah. And I hate new things. 

G: Yeah. And it's okay. So we start the episode, no “Then” sequence. Nothing has ever happened before in Supernatural.

C: I mean, it doesn't feel connected to anything that's happened before in Supernatural, so this tracks.

G: Yeah. Yeah. And, well, there's a lady sitting in the bar.

C: Yeah. And we're not gonna say what her name is [G laughs] cause that's she's not allowed to have it.

G: I loved it!

C: She hasn’t done anything wrong. She's just not allowed to have it, that’s my name.

G: Love it. Yeah. Do you hate when characters have your name?

C: Yes, I hate it. I hate it so much, sorry to that perfectly nice girl in Yellowjackets, but thank God Misty pushed her off a cliff so I didn't have to hear her name anymore.

G: [laughs] Yeah. Well, nobody is named Grey anywhere pretty much.

C: Yeah. Except the internet, there’s a lot of people named Grey. 

G: Well, yes. But my old name- 

C: [laughs] Are we doing the reveal now? 

G: [laughs] But it is pretty funny, isn't it? 

C: It is pretty funny. If you hadn’t changed this name, this scene would be so funny.

G: Yeah, so like, my other name is Sam. [C laughs] That's hilarious to me, so I don't know, I think I just got immune from being uncomfortable when a fictional character has my name. [C: Yeah, because many have your name.] Because many have my name, and also I was a Supernatural fan for most of the time that I was named Sam. [C: Right.] And Sam Winchester is literally on my screen. So, it's fine. [C: True.] I mean, can I say the story of how, when I first started getting into the Supernatural fandom, and I have my pronouns he/him, I'm trans, people know it, and they just assume that I changed my name to be like Sam Winchester for real [C: Yes!] which is so embarrassing! [laughs] Maybe that's the reason why I changed my name, honestly. People thinking that I change my name to Sam to fit Sam, it's like, well, why are we doing this?

C: Exactly, your name should have been Charlie. [G: It literally should’ve!] After another Supernatural character.

G: Exactly. Instead my name is Grey, short for Gregory House, M.D. 

C: The M.D. is part of the name.

G: [laughs] Yeah, it truly is.

-

G: Sam- or, well, “Sam,” quote unquote. [C: Yeah. Someone who we think is Sam right now.] Yeah, walks into the bar and sits beside this lady, but not in a “he's trying to hit her up” way. He doesn't give a shit. He is buying drinks. He's been buying a-

C: “banana daiquiri, my good man.”

G: Yeah, banana daiquiri, and he does this whole thing where he lifts up his ID to be like, “Look, I'm 26.” And then you look at Sam Winchester's hairline, and you're like, “I can guess.” [G and C laugh] I'm so sorry, that's so mean! But he doesn't look young, is what I'm trying to say. Crystal, the lady in this episode-

C: No, that's not her name. [G laughs] That's just a random woman who never had a name. But yes.

G: This lady is telling Sam- but has already introduced himself as Gary at this point- that he is “a stunning-looking man,” and he goes, “I know, right?” [laughs] I actually really love the way they style Sam's hair this scene, or Jared's hair, I guess, this scene, because it looks shorter, I guess? And we have talked about how Sam has bangs and a bit shorter of a crop when they're trying to make him look younger and more harmless. And when they're trying to be like, “Oh, he's a terrifying sexual behemoth,” or whatever [C laughs] his hair is longer, and he doesn't have any bangs, and his sideburns have a thing going for them. And in this one, when he is Sam, he does look like Sam with normal hair length and the normal bang situation for Sam Winchester in Season 5. But when he is Gary, they change it up just a little bit. So you know that something's different. And Jared, I think he's having a good time doing this performance. Recently, there's this post on somewhere. I think I'll reblog it-

C: Oh, god, yeah, the one where he was basically sexually harassing DJ Qualls the entire time he was on set?

G: Yeah, just that entire post, so basically, someone looked up “gay” in Supernatural Wiki to look for something, and then they screenshotted a bunch of things that they found in Supernatural wiki, and I was just struck completely by the fact that these people are actually homophobic, I think. [laughs]

C: [laughs] Incredibly homophobic and misogynistic.

G: And I was thinking about that, and then I remembered I messaged you that one time where I was like, “Oh my God! Literally every single time they were making fun of Sam for being gay because he's a salad eating liberal or something, they weren't actually making fun of him!” They were actually making fun of him. [laughs] It wasn’t like a 5D chess of making fun, they actually were just straight up making fun of him. And I do think about that now, every time Sam- or Jared, here, is acting in a way that's dorky, or whatever, that he’s making fun of this kid, pretty much, and then later on, they have Sam shake a salad, and Dean's like, “Dude. That's gay as hell.” I mean, he doesn’t say “gay as hell,” but you know the implications. [C: Yeah.] And it's like, wow, they really are homophobic in this show. [C: True.] And this isn't even homophobia, what Jared is doing here right now isn't homophobia. He's just making fun of the way teenagers act or something, and the situation is funny in that way.

C: I think he’s making fun of virgins, though.

G: Yeah, but I feel like it does come from the same general direction, doesn’t it?

C: Yeah, there's a lack of masculinity in this kid that is what's being made fun of, I think.

G: Yeah, exactly. So yeah. The lady just keeps on trying to hit him up, but he keeps on missing the mark.

C: I would have backed up, I would have backed down by this point, it seems like he's sending a hint, even though he's not sending a hit, you know?

G: Yeah, just give up. [C: Yeah.] But you know, she's like, “Are you having a good night?” And Gary's like, “Yeah, this is the best night ever.” And she's like, “No, but can we make it any better? Do you wanna get out of here?” And he's like, “Well, I mean, I like this bar, and I just ordered this daiquiri.” [laughs] It's actually pretty funny, honestly. [C: It's really funny.] And then, yeah. Finally, she was like, “No, get out of here with me.” And Gary's like, “Do you mean like- are we talking about sex? Oh, Crystal, I would love to have the sex with you!” [C and G laugh] Amazing. Iconic. [C: Pretty good.] And then off they go. And the camera pans in a certain way, and we see that this is not actually Sam, but a kid, a seventeen-year-old. I did not think he was seventeen at all. I thought he was fifteen. [C: Yeah, he looks younger. Yeah.] But you know, later on.

C: I think the seventeen is on purpose, because the age of consent in Massachusetts is sixteen. But Crystal still did not agree to have sex with a child, she was not aware, and Sam certainly did not agree to have his body used for this purpose, Especially later, when Crystal turns out to be a dominatrix, there's gonna be marks that Sam will come back to. And that's gotta be really upsetting.

G: Yeah. It's always so wild to me that drinking is such a higher [C: Age requirement?] Yeah, alas. And it's actually Gary, a kid.

-

C: So we go to 36 hours earlier, and Sam and Dean are at this woman's house. She turns out to be their babysitter, sort of, in that she worked as a maid at a motel that John would often leave Sam and Dean alone at. Apparently, during that time, Sam kept trying to tell her what John was doing, and eventually convinced her that ghosts were real. Which, yeah, how old- Okay, "the summer before sixth grade" is what Sam says.

G: So that's like 12, maybe 11. [C: Yeah.] It's 12, because Sam's in May.

C: Yeah. What grade was he in in "After School Special"?

G: It was eighth grade.

C: It was eighth grade 'cause Dean was a senior? Yeah. Okay. So it's between "Very Supernatural Christmas" and "After School Special."

G: Can I give you a spoiler? [C: Sure.] There's an episode a bit later on, I forget what age Sam is, but it's definitely in between "After School Special" and- what's the other one? And "A Very Supernatural Christmas." Sam has short hair in that. [C: No!] Like, cropped to the scalp.

C: What did John do to him?

G: I was like- I forgot about that episode, and it is also fascinating to me because that episode- I'll just spoil it. It's the one with Sully, the imaginary friend. [C: Oh, cute, yeah.] Which is like, you know, a significant Sam episode, but I very rarely see it in, like, compilation of kid Sam stuff [C: Because he has short hair!] because it looks so different because his hair is cropped to his head. But yeah, I think during this time, that was like, the Sam that we're supposed to imagine. Short-haired Sam.

C: Wow! What a different man that is.

G: I know! And part of the plot of that episode was he wanted to go hunting with Dean and John. [C: Hmm.] But they were like, "No, Sam, we just have to leave you in this motel room," and then that's why he was hanging out with Sully a lot, and then eventually, Sully was like, "You should run away." [laughs] [C: Real.] And Sam was like, "Okay, let's do it."

C: Oh, and he has a dog!

G: Yeah, but then Dean calls and was like, "You can come with us now." And Sam was like, "No, but oh, that's so wonderful, because I really want to, like, go hunting with my older brother, who I admire, and my dad, who I think I also admire."

C: Huh. Sorry to that kid.

G: I think there is a throughline between, like, Sam trying to convince their babysitter to be like, "No, but like, my dad really is a hunter, and there really are ghosts!" in combination with that version of Sam who still admired and wanted to be involved with the hunting life in a way, you know?

C: So you're saying that- Okay, 'cause I sort of read this as him acting out, but you think it was more of a like, "my dad's so admirable and cool"?

G: Yeah, because probably, this woman was like, "I can't believe your father is just leaving you behind and being so horrible to you." And Sam would be like, "No, he's not!"

C: "He's a hero!"

G: "[whiny] But he's actually fighting monsters and everything!" That's how I imagine young Sam to speak. [both laugh]

C: I mean, you've watched the episode. Is that what his voice sounds like?

G: It should have been. They should have hired that kid, and then hired me to do a voiceover, like a dub [C laughing] of the kid speaking.

C: So true. Okay, yeah. I can see that. I guess I viewed it either as him acting out or just him being a lonely kid, but I think your thing makes sense, like, logically.

G: They did not, like, follow through with this fucking case at all. [laughs] Honestly, kind of hilarious.

C: Yeah, I mean, they burned the body. It's over.

G: I mean, they did. They did. And they, you know, saved the family and the kid or whatever it is that they did. But it is pretty funny that, like, this is the first time we see them.

C: We never see them again, yeah.

G: And it's just to introduce the concept of [C: Of Lisa.] "Man, yeah, what if there is a family that, you know, we get to live with, and a wife and some kids? Settle down, blah blah blah." [both laugh] Nobody should settle down or get married. [laughs]

C: This is true, we should make all marriage illegal, but yeah.

G: Yeah. That's not true. So sorry to everyone who is happily married. But people who are unhappily married, you're welcome. [C laughing]

C: Anyway. But yeah, I think this is a good example of, I guess, first, like, a family that knows about monsters but doesn't feel the need to become hunters.

G: Yeah, and they seem well-adjusted.

C: I think it's because it's a woman that learned about it first, and not a man. I think if it was a man, it would have been like, "He has to be a hunter."

G: Yeah. You think so?

C: Yeah, they seem well adjusted, and they were able to reach out to Sam and Dean [G: Yeah.] as soon as they were like, "This might be a ghost," and that's helpful. If only more people knew.

G: Yeah. And, you know, as Dean says earlier, like, they don't seem consumed by it the way, you know, I don't know, you would normally expect in a TV show like Supernatural. Because, you know, later on, Jody and Donna, these are people who know about the life, and they are a little bit consumed by it! Like, I mean, they have lives, like, they have a job. They're cops. [sighs] Horrible! Maybe they should-

C: They should have just been more- they should have been more consumed by it. [both laugh]

G: No, but like, you know, I think this is a very different dynamic with hunting that this woman has. [C: Yeah.] Women further in the show that we meet and have a similar happenstance with hunting.

C: Yeah, I think it's because they were already cops, it's like, they have the skills or whatever to do murder. [G: Yeah.] Blah blah blah, this is a template for how Dean could eventually be happy with the domestic life, knowing about ghosts but not really doing any active hunting, blah blah blah.

G: I did not even connect that dot, like, at all.

C: Oh, yeah, I mean, they do do a lot of dot connecting, though.

G: Yeah, it's just, you know, to introduce the idea that "What if we have a domestic life, with women?" [both laugh]

C: With women.

G: I don't wanna sound that dismissive, like, I understand what they're trying to do, but Supernatural is the one who's dismissive, not me.

C: [laughs] Yeah. And it's just- the Lisa thing is so ridiculous. Every single time they have a long-term relationship with a woman, it's ridiculous to me. It's just wild to me that like, Lisa would be single when Dean went back, you know what I mean? [laughs] [G: Yeah.] Like, if she wanted a relationship, she would be in a relationship, due to how she's like, hot and somehow the most well paid yoga instructor of all time, owning her own house.

G: Yeah, this is why, when it was Sam's turn, they made her a military wife of a dead guy.

C: Exactly, like, that was realistic. And I don't know what was going on with Daphne, [laughs] but like, you know, if you're willing to marry a naked man in the woods, all power to you.

G: Yeah, and be a religious whatever whatever with him.

C: Yeah, this isn't to hate on Lisa. She's allowed to have, like, bad taste in men, I think the writers just-

G: Yeah, but the thing is Supernatural doesn't frame it that way, is the thing. [C: Yeah.] And I will reserve my judgment over Lisa because I feel like, you know, she has been quite hated in the fandom from every single direction of hatred, so like, I just would rather see first, if that is the case.

C: You've watched the show!

G: [laughs] But not with a critical mindset! [C: Fair.] I would just watch. I mean, I don't really remember much about Lisa, honestly.

-

C: She has this kid, Katie. There was a poltergeist who attacked her two nights ago and cut the words "murdered child" into her stomach, and it's quite miserable to look at.

G: Wild! I was surprised by it. I did not expect it at all. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] Like, the carving on this abdomen. Like, that's pretty wild.

C: It's pretty visceral, yeah.

G: I mean in Season 11. They do a version of this [laughs] that is so ungodly funny.

C: [laughs] The "I am coming" one?

G: Yeah, with Cas. [both laughing] They carve it in his chest. [C: Yeah.] Shave your chest, father of two.

C: But yeah, Sam and Dean are like, "We got this. You get out of town."

G: [Southern accent] Get out of town.

C: So they're now at a diner, and Gary, the kid that we saw was in Sam's body earlier, is working there, and there's this bit where Gary's really judgmental over how, like, on top of, like, burger and fries, there was a Health Quake Salad Shake that was ordered.

G: He's judgmental about the salad, yeah.

C: Yeah. And then, like, when Sam, like, gets the salad shake, he put dressing in it and then starts shaking the bottle. And Dean-

G: [laughs] I kind of get it.

C: Really?

G: The thing is, I am a salad shaker. I love to shake a salad. But like, anytime anybody else around me is shaking a salad, I'm like, "You are the most pretentious person alive on Earth. Like, why are you doing this?"

C: The dressing needs to be evenly distributed!

G: I know! I know because I do it, and I love doing it! [laughing] But when other people do it, I also become the most judgmental person in the world. But like, I don't think that's what Dean is doing here. I think Dean's is coming from a different place.

C: Yeah, 'cause "You shake it up, baby." But I think he's, yeah, he's just coming from a "stop drawing attention to the fact that you're eating gay food for gay people." [laughs] [G: Yeah.] Sam would love shaking boba.

G: We never even see them drink milk tea ever in the show! [C: It's true.] Do we ever see them eat anything other than like, [C: Burgers? And salad.] burgers, fries, salad.

C: They eat chicken when they go to dinner at Jody's.

G: Yeah, but that's like, a big deal, because eating chicken is gay [laughs] according to Supernatural, I think. But not roasted chicken.

C: I think it's more like they got a home-cooked meal for the first time in their lives, blah blah blah. They eat Spaghetti-O's as children.

G: Sam's served soup- Dean serves him soup.

C: Yes, the soup scene, when he's in the green blankie.

G: Cas eats PB&J.

C: True, and burritos.

G: [laughs] "Ethnic food." [C: God.] I mean, everybody has said that, like, it's wild that Cas, angel of the Lord, [C: Yeah, is racist.] has a distinction about ethnic food or whatever it is. It is also just wild to me that like, if you are going to classify things as ethnic food or whatever, [laughs] that like, American-style burritos are [both laugh] what you would define it as. I don't know. It's wild.

C: Yeah. Dean chokes on tacos and sausages in "Mystery Spot."

G: This is true! He eats one sausage.

C: They eat pancakes and things. [G: Yeah. Pancakes!] But yeah, burger is sort of the main thing. Dean in "The Curious Case" was like, "I'm gonna take care of my health now," but I guess he changed his mind immediately.

G: He had a bagel. Yeah. In "It's a Terrible Life." [both laugh] Are bagels also considered gay? [C, laughing: I think so?] People will do anything! This show is so stupid. [C laughs]

C: Dean says that Donna looks pretty good, which Sam interprets it as wanting to fuck their babysitter, which apparently Dean wanted way back when as well. But no, he meant it in terms of like, "I think that I should get it settled down with a hot woman."

G: It is kind of wild to me that, like, you know, people think of settling down as getting married and then having kids. [C: Mm-hm.] I feel like that's just a cultural- not cultural. Generational distinction that I think you and I, people our age will just never understand, maybe.

C: What do you view as settling down?

G: I don't think I ever thought about it. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] Like, I think settling down is having a nice job. [laughs] Like, when I'm secure in my career, I'm settled down.

C: Yeah, settling down is just like, having a house, or an apartment where you know you can pay the rent every month or whatever. I think I view it more as, like, a geographical consistency thing.

G: Yeah, like, "I've stayed in this town or city or whatever for a set amount of time, and I will continue to do so, and I've dedicated my life to being a citizen." Like, that's settling down.

C: Right. "Like, I intend to continue working a job here, probably the same one as the one I have."

G: Yeah, like, my 10 Year Plan involves being in the same place. That's settling down. But like, you know, like, it was, like, mother's day recently, so I've been looking at people posting stuff, people talking about motherhood, and it is fascinating to see that, like, you know, our mothers and the ones before them, like, did see it as like, part of the path of your life. You're just supposed to marry, and you're just supposed to have kids. And it's like, "Why did you want to do it?" Because now, it's like, if you're gonna have kids, [laughs] you've gotta want that shit, I feel like. But like, you know, back then it was just like, "Well, I didn't necessarily want it or not want it. It's just what was you're supposed to do." [C: Yeah.] So I think, given that context-

C: I mean, my mom did want it, I think. But yeah. [G: Yeah.] 'Cause of- [laughing]

G: [laughing] The Chinese laws?

C: Yeah, I mean, I wasn't born in China, but every time me and my sister visited China, people have assumed that we're twins, so that's how we got around it. But it's like, "No, we we were born in the US."

G: Yeah. Given that, I do now have a more forgiving stance whenever Sam and Dean talk about settling down in a way that is like, you know, "You just end up with a woman, and that's settling down." I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Like, [C: Sure, yeah.] I think I've been looking at it from a different lens for a long time.

C: Like, yeah, from a "they feel entitled to like-"

G: A wife, yeah.

C: "- affection from-"

G: From a woman, yeah. But I think I'm beginning to be like, "Well, that's the-"

C: Like, women would also view settling down as having a husband?

G: Yeah, yeah. Or like, that's just a cultural expectation. I think it's still, a lot of the time, especially the way Supernatural deals with it, very, you know, misogynistic, but like, just on a character level, removed from how the show frames it afterwards, like, Sam and Dean thinking of settling down as having a wife. I don't have that kick of like, "Ugh!" whenever they say it anymore.

C: Yeah, that's fair.

G: Wow, we're like, improving and growing and whatever in this multi-year-long podcast. [laughs]

C: Perhaps. One could call that improving and growing.

G: Yeah, not that much. Not that much. [laughs]

C: The case is that apparently, this house, which is old as fuck, it was owned in the 1720s by a guy who hung a woman for witchcraft in his backyard. Dean's so horrible! Sam goes, "That still doesn't explain what 'murdered child' means," and Dean goes, "No, or where the bitch is buried." What did she do wrong? You just learned that she was, like, murdered so horribly.

G: Yeah, well, I think it's like, a continuation of witchcraft being something he hates so much it's unreal.

C: Yeah, but we don't even know for sure that- Like, imagine hearing that a man killed a woman for a witchcraft in the 1720s, and go, like, "He was probably right," you know what I mean?

G: Yeah, yeah. [laughing]

C: [laughing] The stats are not in this guy's favor.

G: I love how prior to this, I was like, "I don't really see Dean's remarks as misogynistic anymore," [both laughing] and then he follows it up with the most misogynistic thing that ever could be said.

C: [laughing] Like, she probably wasn't a witch. If she is, that's like, against the probabilities. But yeah. Unless in the Supernatural verse, all of the Salem witch trial witches were real witches. It's possible that that's like, what's canon for Supernatural. That's fucked up! And the whole time Gary is like, looking at Sam with like, an evil smirk on his face, or whatever. [G: Yeah.] Good for him!

G: I literally, this whole time, was like, "It's because Sam ordered a salad?" Like, [both laugh] what's this about?

C: Real. Huh, okay, wait, we didn't actually talk about Sam saying that it wasn't really his thing anymore. [G: Which what?] The settling down.

G: Ah, yeah. It happens.

C: Yeah, and that's been true since at least Season 4 because he didn't want to go back and say goodbye to Cara. [G laughs] Was Sarah a Season 2 or 1?

G: [laughing] That's such a funny as fuck example. What a wild example!

C: But they make a point of it! [G: They do.] as Sam being like, "What's the point of me going back and saying bye to her?" Was Sarah the last relationship he like, sort of had any hope for? And that was in Season 1?

G: Right now? Like, at this point?

C: Like, just in the show, when was the most recent romantic connection Sam had?

G: No, like, at this point in the show, you mean? [C: Yeah.] I think so. Like, Madison, I guess, but like, she dies immediately, so. [C: That is true.] Sam's not really a romance type, I feel. And when he is, he's so ungodly annoying. Have you noticed that?

C: [laughs] Yeah, like, with Madison, he was definitely very annoying, yes.

G: Yeah. This theme of Sam like, wanting to settle down and stuff, it shows up a lot. By the time the Lisa stuff ends, Dean basically abandons it completely again. Like, that's why it does feel a little bit forced, you know? [C: Yes.] Like, Dean wanting to settle down. Because with Sam, there is a throughline. Like, he wanted to settle down because he wanted, you know, the normalcy, safety, whatever. And then that blew up in his face so so so so bad, and now he's like, "Whatever, man. Who give a shit?" And then the next time he attempts to settle down was because he thought his hunting life was basically over because Dean's dead. [C: Right.] So like, you know, there's complexity there. And then Sam goes back to, like, "Uh, not thinking about it." But it's like, mostly not thinking about it. It's not necessarily a negative on settling down. And he brings it up again on Season 11. And then, you know, we know that he has a romance with Eileen, afterwards [C: Yup.] where he does consider it.

C: Well, does he consider it as a settling down thing, or just like a, "We'll be in a relationship, and also, like, hunt" or whatever whatever?

G: I mean, like, the way Sam words it is, "Settle down with a hunter, somebody who understands the life." So it was, like, still hunting, but like, in a way that is more, you have a home base of, you know, someone like that. And yeah, he says that in "Baby," and in the same season, he meets Eileen! Let's not talk about it. [both laugh] Or let us. Who knows? Well, what I mean is Sam, like, has a journey with it of like, "Oh, if I'm gonna have a relationship, it's only, like, a relationship. No hunting." "Oh, if I'm gonna be a hunter, no relationship at all." And then, like, "Oh, hunting's basically over. I'm gonna go back to a relationship." And then eventually settling down, waffling down to like, "I can have both," which is like, his disposition towards the end. Versus Dean who's basically like, "I'm never gonna settle down!" And then, just for this brief moment, just to accommodate the plot, he goes, "But what if?" [C laughs] And it's like, he's never shown this-

C: I guess you could read this is him reacting to the doctor in "Sam Interrupted" asking him if he's ever had a long-term relationship. Because the doctor was created in his mind, right? [G: He's been thinking about it.] So like, the two things that he sort of viewed as like, wrong with his life is his alcoholism and his lack of a long-term relationship. Like, that's what she starts with.

G: Yeah. And they never acknowledge the alcoholism, but decide to acknowledge this one. [both laugh]

C: That's true. Yeah, I guess so.

G: I mean, I feel like I'm dumbing it down quite a lot with Dean. Like, later on, at the end, I do think that Dean thinks of himself as settled down in a way, with, you know, in "Lebanon."

C: Yeah. The "I have a family" thing.

G: So yeah, I don't know. [laughs] That is pretty funny that like, Dean's like, "I have a family." And Sam's like, "I'm looking for a wife." [laughs] He wasn't. He wasn't. He wasn't. But like, you know what I mean. [C: Yeah.]

-

G: Sam and Dean separate. Sam's like, walking down a fucking road, on a call with Dean, and then just normal "tell me about the case" stuff. And as he hangs up, there's a dart that like, hits him right on the neck, and-

C: Yeah. And then he starts mooing like a cow. [laughs]

G: Yeah, falls to the ground, and then when he wakes up, he is in Gary's uniform from the diner. And yeah. It's kind of a fun outfit. It's a fun outfit. [C: Yeah.] And he starts, like, walking, and a sheriff comes up to him in a police car and is like, "Man, your parents are looking for you.- Your family is looking for you. Let's get you back home. It's cold. Your family's worried sick." And he was like, "Uh, my brother called you?" [C laughs] which is a very funny visual, honestly. Like, it's never gonna happen. I understand why Sam was so scandalized, confused, and kind of upset. [C: Yeah.] Yeah, Sam gets into the car and gets let down in a house that is like, you know, normal suburbs. And Gary's parents come down. It's his mom and dad, and his mom's worried. His dad's like, upset with him, because they think he's like, you know, got drunk or did drugs or whatever.

C: [laughs] "Are you smoking drugs." [G: Yeah.] "Don't say that! He is not smoking drugs!" [laughing]

G: I do find the smoking drugs scene quite funny, like, what a wording! [C: It's pretty good.] Yeah. And Sam's like, “Whoa, don't hug me. Who are you? Who's that man? Who are you, lady?”

C: Man. He's annoying sometimes.

G: He truly is. He needs to stop saying “lady” altogether. Let's just ban it. Yeah. [C: Yeah.] There's complexity to the word, like, you can use it in different situations, but with Sam Winchester, you can't, like, at all. You can't.

C: Yeah, yeah. When he, like, in his community theater role gets a part in Much Ado About Nothing, he has to cut that word out every time he addresses a woman.

G: Yeah. Eventually, Sam, like, tries to get back into the car, but as he does, he sees his shadow on the car door. [C: Reflection.] Not shadow. You're right. His reflection [laughs] on the car door, just like Mulan. [C: Yeah.] And he's like, "Who is that... man [both laugh] I see?" Yeah. He was very shocked again, scandalized.

-

G: So Sam, or well, Gary is, you know, back in the motel where they are, and he's in Sam's body, and we just see Sam, like, initially, looking at the mirror and like, flexing his muscles. He like, took off his overshirt, so it's just his tee, and it's a gray v-neck. [C: Yeah, it's his gray v-neck.] [laughs] I have this exact shirt! [C: So true.] And it does not wear like that on me whatsoever, but I do have it. [C laughs] And yeah, looks wonderful on Sam. And Gary's just super impressed with his muscles. And Dean walked in to what he thinks is Sam, like, flexing in this mirror, which is so funny!

C: You live in a world of shapeshifters, Dean Winchester!

G: Yeah, it is kind of wild that he did not clock this.

C: Yeah. Like, later, when Sam reverses the Impala into- when Gary reverses the Impala into like, a pile of garbage, I feel like at that point, Dean should have tested some silver on him, at least.

G: Yeah. But like, the reason why Dean suspects is because Sam sleeps with a MILF. [both laugh] When, as we know, he's lactose intolerant! So. What is it with that running gag, that MILFs are really into Sam? [C: I don't know.] Older women in general. I should stop saying MILFs. [C laughs]

C: I don't really know what the gag is.

G: It's just a thing that they do. Because they do do it. It is a thing.

C: Yeah, they do do it.

G: Gary gives Dean some food, but it's like, you know, Dean's usual fare. And Dean starts, like, raising his eyebrow at this a little bit. Gary says, like, “Oh, we need to go, by the way, because the maid saw all the guns, and now they're freaking out!”

They're off, and Gary takes all of the phones and throws them out, I guess. That's a plot point because Sam keeps on trying to contact Dean, and it's not working. And later on, Dean receives the voicemails from his hotel phone. [C: Yeah.] And it's Sam's voice!

C: Yeah. I don't know how that happened...

G: I also don't know how it happened. And also, I'm miffed about Sam's voice being the thing that's used there because I feel like that's such an easy fix. [C: Right.] Just have the Gary actor- [C: The Gary guy say the words.] And it's like, such a small detail that if you do right, it's like, "Oh, that's so fun!" and if you do wrong, it's so obvious and terrible.

C: But also, how did Sam get Dean's motel room?

G: I feel like they went back, or did they?

C: Oh, to the previous one? It's possible.

G: I used the word miffed correctly, by the way. Because I said it. I took a chance. [laughs] And then I googled it afterwards, and it's correct!

C: Proud of you. Congrats!

G: Thank you.

Dean arrives, sets off to leave, but then Gary is, like, "Um, hold on! Can I drive?" [C: God.] And then he does so, and he doesn't know how to.

C: I think he just doesn't know how to drive stick because like, he is 17, so if he wanted to get his license at 16, then he would have learned how to drive some cars, probably just not the Impala.

G: Yeah. Well, why would he volunteer?

C: 'Cause, I don't know. He thinks the car is so neat, and he wants a chance to drive.

G: Yeah, I'd be terrified out of my life. Maybe this is him trying to kill Dean. [both laughing] He's like, "If I hit the dumpster at the back with this car that he loves so much, he'll have a heart attack and then die." [C laughs] [C: Real.] Yeah. But yeah, that's what he does. He, like, is trying to move forward, but he reverses, and Dean's pissed at him.

C: But he doesn't suspect anything.

G: Yeah. Maybe he's like-

C: What a low opinion he must have Sam [both laughing] to think-!

G: No, really, like, maybe the reason Sam never gets to drive is because Dean thinks he's just an awful driver!

C: Yeah, even though he's proven that he's not. Maybe, like, one time when Sam was turning 16 or whatever, and Dean was like, "Okay, like, you just got your license, like, I'll let you drive for a treat." and then Sam accidentally fucked up, [G: Yeah.] and Dean's like, held a grudge against him for it the entire time, and this dumpster was just like, “I knew that that behavior was going to come back any day now, Sam."

G: Yeah, he was like, "I've always known you were a terrible driver, Sam, [C laughs] and now I have concrete proof that, at this age, you are so horrific at it."

C: [laughs] Yeah. God. I don't know. This whole episode, I just couldn't stop thinking about how Dean doesn't like Sam. [G: Yeah.] In some ways, it's very like the siren episode where it's like, "Oh my god! You want me to turn my music up? Wow! You're great! I hate my brother for real," you know? [laughs]

G: When they were, like, you know, they're doing the fucking thing- [laughs] so stupid.

C: When they were doing shots together?

G: No, when Gary and Dean were doing the exorcism together, I was like, "Aw, they're having a brother moment!" [both laugh] and they're literally not because they're not brothers. [C: Yeah.] Like, when can Sam and Dean do an exorcism together like this?

C: Yeah, no, it was always like, only one of them did all the words, 'cause, I don't know. It's usually 'cause Dean didn't know the words, right? [G: Yeah.] Like, why does he know the words now?

G: Well, he memorized it.

C: Yeah. I guess eventually.

G: He listened to it on repeat on Sam's MP3.

C: Yeah. Also, yeah, I mean, we've talked constantly about how we don't understand the rules of exorcism. [G: Yeah.] Like, apparently, if two separate people do the lines trading off, it also works. I don't get it.

G: Yeah, and also, Dean goes, like, "Adios," right? [C: Yeah.] And then he goes, "Actually, it's-" [C: Adinos or whatever, yeah.] And then it works. And it works when he says it, even though it's like-

C: Yeah, so you can have interruptions.

G: Yeah. What if I just, you know, say one word every year of my life? Like, how's that gonna work? [C: Yeah, exactly.] What a long life. [C laughs] I don't know. They head out, and it's just- and they just do it. They just head out, and they just keep on hunting together. Maybe Dean hates Sam for real. [C: Yeah, he doesn't like Sam.] When they get in the car, even before the bit where Sam is like, “Turn down the music,” I was like, "Man, what are they- What are they going back to?" [C: Yeah.] Like, they hate each other. [C: They do.] [laughs] It's also so funny that later on, we have a scene, Cas gets imprisoned, and then a demon mimics his voice whenever Dean calls.

C: Yeah, and Dean's like, "Something's up."

G: And Dean was like, “I'm so sorry, Cas, that I wasn't able to fully understand that it wasn't you. I should've known.” [laughs]

C: Yeah. Meanwhile, a literal 17-year-old who had no clue what hunting was managed to trick Dean [G laughing] that he was Sam for a day, and Dean was just like-

G: "It happens."

C: "And I liked him better than you." [G: It happens!] Not aloud, but he's thinking it. [G laughs] [G: Literally!]

-

C: You know, Sam, in Gary's room has been calling Dean's every single phone, but yeah. And he's coming out as trans! He says, "This is gonna sound crazy, but I think I'm in the wrong body." So true. Proud of her.

G: No, literally. Because I was, like, scrubbing through this episode at some point, and later, the girl, what's her name? I forget. [C: Nora?] Nora, like, talks about how "Gary is in a trans." [C laughs] And then that was like, the only thing I heard. I was like, "Wait."

C: Gary is trans.

G: Maybe he is a trans. [C: Real.] [laughing] Maybe the guy who changed his name to Sam and has he/him pronouns on Supernatural Tumblr is Gary all along. [C: So true!] I'm sure many a trans people have changed their name...

C: Yeah. Just period?

G: To Sam.

C: [laughing] Yeah, okay, to Sam.

G: I'm so sorry to those people. I'm not denigrating the name. I just think it's funny that people thought I chose it like that because of Sam Winchester. If you did choose your name because of a fictional character, it's fine. [C: Good for you.] It's fine! It's wonderful.

C: Sam calls the motel and learns that, you know, his body is also being used by Gary. And, you know, he does the thing where he's trying to investigate Gary's life. He sees that he has AP Chemistry and Physics notes, and he goes, "Smart kid." And then he looks at a Star Wars T-shirt [both laugh] and goes, “[sighs] Virgin.”

G: This is so indicative of like, [C: Sam Winchester!] Sam and Dean's dynamic.

C: Like, literally. "AP classes? Hell yeah! Star Wars? Ew!"

G: This is like, if Dean was in this position, he'd see the Star Wars and be like, "Huh!" And he'd see the fucking AP Physics and be like, “Damn, this kid's a fucking loser.” [C laughs] [C: Yeah. God.] It's so Sam Winchester. Love it! Love it so much.

C: And then, unfortunately, the title of our podcast appears briefly. [both laugh] [G: Yeah!] Yeah, in a magazine under that guy's bed. Sam goes, “Frustrated virgin.”

G: Yeah. Hate it! [C: Yeah. Hate it.] Why is this porn mag so uproariously famous?

C: I don't know. Like, I get that they were lazy and didn't want to design another one, but like, it's so weird that so many people in this world have Asian fetishes, [G: Yeah.] and like, we're just gonna say it aloud and look at the camera about it.

G: No yeah, that's it- Like, we've talked about it before, but like, [laughing] Supernatural just does think that it's the status quo to have an Asian fetish, I think. [C: Yeah!] So like, yeah.

C: Yeah. John Shiban, you really started something there.

G: Yeah. Also, Sam calls the motel to check whether he can connect to Dean. And then the guy there says, “Oh, no! They already left. One of them's wearing a letter jacket, and the other's Sasquatch," so. Which I think is fun! I think that's fun.

C: And then Sam finds that there's some witchcraft things in the box as well. [G: Yeah.] Sam goes down to breakfast, and he's just kinda a dick. [G: Yeah.] Or it's more that he just acts like he would with Dean, but that doesn't fly within this family.

G: Yeah. It is kind of wild that he was like, "And Gary's life is so terrible."

C: I know! He was like, "And his parents suck." Like, his parents just seem like regular parents to me.

G: They're regular parents, and you just hate it because you're not Gary! You're literally-

C: Yeah. [laughs] I mean, Gary also hates it, while being Gary.

G: No, no, but like, specifically, the reason why Sam hates it is because he's Sam Winchester and he's stuck in Gary's body. If this was like a "Sam willingly chose this situation, and he has parents who are, you know, supportive of his college education," I think he'd be like, "Yeah, it's fine." [C: Yeah.] But no, he thinks Gary's life sucks ass completely.

C: So we learn here that Gary's parents really want him to stick to this plan where he gets a good SAT score, he goes to MIT, and becomes an engineer. Gary's dad says, "You need a full ride." I don't think MIT gives merit-based scholarships. I think it's a need-based financial aid thing. Maybe he's talking about applying to outside scholarships. But anyway. Yeah, Sam's just being rude, and he's asking questions about himself, aka Gary, to learn more. And the whole time, Gary's sister seems to know something but is holding it back.

G: He's like, "Let me guess." 'Cause he's trying to be like, "Oh, am I doing witchcraft?" [C: Yeah.] "Let me guess. I'm amazing at Latin." And his mom goes, "You have an ear for languages!" [both laugh] And I loved it so much! [C: Yeah.] So wonderful.

C: Yeah. And then this is also where Gary's dad goes, "Are you smoking drugs?" And the mom goes, "Leonard. He is not smoking drugs." [G: Slay.] Wonderful comedic delivery. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] And then, finally, Sam brings up this old, leather-bound book. And the sister is just doing the “bro, what the fuck?” face. And then Sam learns, after grabbing a bite of toast off of Gary's mom's plate, that he's allergic to wheat gluten. [G: Yeah.] And then, after he does all his, like, shitting and throwing up, Gary's sister confronts him about the creepy book thing, and Sam learns where Gary hides it.

-

G: Gary and Dean go to work the case, and, I don't know. Where are they going?

C: Yeah, 'cause they're like, "Let's get out-" I think they just went to a new motel, right? Like, they moved from, the Lucky Star to the Evergreen Motel.

G: Yeah. So Dean initially was like, "We're gonna go and do a tombstone whatever. Look at the cemetery." But then, Gary is like, “Wait, you're looking for Maggie Briggs? She's not in the cemetery. She's in the basement!” He says that, "Oh, actually, she wasn't a witch." Because she was actually pregnant with his illegitimate child, and then he killed her, and then buried her in the basement! [C: Yeah. Yeah. Sucks.] And this is, like, nothing! This is nothing to Supernatural! [C: Yeah. It is.] Yeah, this woman they just called “bitch” earlier. Well. He's like, "Oh, I did the research last night" when Dean starts, you know, being surprised at all of this. Gary is like, so enthused when they go down. He's like, doing poses with the gun and everything. [laughs]

C: Yeah. He also does the like, "Yay, turn up your rock music, Dean Winchester!" thing.

G: Oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah. He also references Halo, I think. He's like, you know, a nerd, I guess! I mean, honestly, I feel like a lot of people conflate “nerd” and “geek,” and those are very different things, and I find that most people who are into the video game shit and the Star Wars shit are not particularly well-performers in school. You know what I mean? So, I don't know. I do find it's fun that he's combined in these two. [C laughs] Like, I don't know. [laughs] Is that such a wild thing to say? Is that so stupid?

C: Um, I mean, I think what you're saying makes sense. [G: Yeah.] I think it's just the part where it's like, "And it's cool that that is part of his character" where it's like, "Okay."

G: You don't like it. You think it's uncool?

C: No, I'm just completely neutral about it. [both laugh] Like, I can't imagine having feelings about it.

G: No, I just think it's fun [C: Okay.] as someone who was always misconstrued as having no life outside of academics in my youth. [laughs]

C: Uh-huh. "Like, well, actually, I really liked Supernatural, so." [G laughing]

G: And I really, really did! [both laugh] God. You know, I was thinking when Sam opened that cabinet and saw the Star Wars shirt, I was like, "This is the exact reaction that Sam Winchester would have upon opening Crystal's cabinet, maybe!" [C laughs]

C: I think Sam Winchester, seeing a Castiel cardboard cutout, would have other concerns. [G laughs]

G: He may have other concerns, but in a universe where he understands that it's like, a fandom situation, he'd be like, "What a fucking nerd!"

C: Yeah. But he'd probably just think that I'm like, a fan of that, like, leftist terrorist that went and, like, killed a guy who was preaching during a church ceremony or whatever.

G: Or, he's going to think you're like, a Becky type.

C: Well, but Castiel doesn't have, like, visuals.

G: This is true. Do you think there are Supernatural fans who are like, “Wow! That guy who blew up that church or whatever Cas did and put his face on the stained glass really looks like the description of Castiel,” or were they just like, "Eh."

C: I mean, I'm sure that they thought that after Chuck released his next book about how [laughs] Castiel went into the church and put his face on the stained glass.

G: Oh, yeah, you're right. Man, the Supernatural fandom in the Supernatural universe is having a ball in this bitch, as they say.

C: Yeah, I mean, they're definitely on the list of irredeemable media for most DNIs [G laughing] because of how Chuck so clearly just took things that actually happened.

G: Yeah. There's discourse all the fucking time. Eventually, Dean is about to burn the body, but then Gary gets flung to the wall. Oh, Gary was about to shoot Dean. And then he gets flung to the wall. And then Dean saves Sam and then gets flung to the wall and everything, and then Gary eventually burns the body. And I don't understand what they're trying to tell us here. Because from what I can gather from later on, what they're trying to tell us is that Dean saving Gary makes Gary realize that Dean's a good guy or whatever.

C: Yeah.

G: Why?

C: I don't know. Like, he thought that was his brother. Like. [laughs]

G: It's just such a- Gary being like, “No, seriously, you're a good guy, Dean." Where is this coming from?

C: I guess he's also learning about hunting for the first time, right? Before, it was like, “I don't know why this demon wants to kill this guy," but it's like, "Oh, but he's out here [G: He's fine.] killing evil ghosts."

G: I suppose so. It's just, is it kinda stupid? It is.

C: Yeah. I just don't think Gary's learned enough about Dean at this point to draw that conclusion. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, I don't know. I guess I think it's maybe just the adrenaline and fun of being on a hunt and, like, working in a team like that.

G: Yeah, the bonding of like, [C: Yeah.] doing something together.

C: Yeah. God. Is Gary's relationship with a sister so bad? Like, she knows about the witchcraft. [G: Yeah, I'm assuming they have-] She is some form of a confidante.

G: Yeah. But I don't know. I don't know! Sometimes, you hate your siblings. Just like Sam and Dean. [laughs]

-

C: Sam's at school in a silly teenage boy outfit, you know, still not getting through to Dean on the phone. He meets Gary's friends, who are Trev and Nora. You know, he's acting weird. He's referring to Gary and the third person. He's like, "Oh, I'm still drunk." He breaks into Gary's locker, and he finds the witchcraft. Decides to like, skip school to look through it, but Trev and Nora run after him. And they're all like, "Oh, we're worried about you! Come talk to us!" And then Sam keeps leaving, and then Trev shoots him in the neck with a tranquilizer dart. [G: Love it.] It's wonderful. [laughs] Where are these kids getting these things?

G: I feel like a tranquilizer must be difficult to get. [C: Yeah.] [laughs] Perhaps even harder to get than a gun in the United States, honestly.

C: I don't know. I guess if you work with animals, you can get one, so like, [G: Yeah.] it's possible that, I don't know, one of their parents, like, works with horses or something.

G: Wow! Just like in Thoroughbreds. [C: Good movie.] Wonderful movie.

C: Meanwhile, we get another "Dean and Gary bonding 'cause Dean actually hates Sam."

G: Yay! [laughs] Shut up.

C: So Gary takes Dean's order of a cheeseburger with a fried egg on top, which does sound pretty good

G: So messy!

C: Eh, yeah.

G: Oh, that's a compliment. Love that.

C: And there's a bit where Dean's like, “Okay, who are you, and what have you done with Sam?” Gary's like, "Huh?" But Dean's just like, “You're cool now, cause you eat bacon cheeseburgers, and I suddenly like you so much better than Sam!" [G: Literally.] They're celebrating. Gary's like, “This was such an awesome day,” and Dean's like, "What? That was nothing. What the fuck?" And Gary says, “I should be happy because I have a gun, I'm getting drunk, and I look like this.” [both laugh]

G: Yeah. [C: Yeah.] It is very- Obviously, Jared and Jensen are attractive people.

C: Sure.

G: No, I mean, like, not in that way. [C laughs] I mean like, in the "you benefit from this socially" kind of way. [C: Yeah.] And so Sam and Dean also are. And like, I do find it fascinating that every time they have, like, a loser character, they do make a point of being like, "You won't get it! Because, like, you guys are beautiful!" [both laugh] Or like, this time, it's like, "Wow! My life is so much better because I'm attractive." [both laugh]

C: Yeah. [G: I don't know.] Like, I think the reason that milves weren't hitting you up in bars is 'cause you're 17.

G: And you are not allowed in bars, yeah.

C: Gary as a kid, like, they didn't cast, like, a kid who looks conventionally unattractive. Like, he just looks like a kid who's fine. Like, his face is symmetrical or whatever, you know?

G: Yeah. He looks like [laughs] a trans guy in their 20s.

C: What did the "Wishful Thinking" guy say?

G: I don't even remember. [C: Yeah, you don't need to.] He was like, "You don't understand because you guys are attractive, so you'll never get the struggle of life!" or whatever. [C laughs] And Sam and Dean are like, "Yes, we do!"

C: Yeah, I mean, and it's true that being conventionally attractive, like, means that you benefit, but [laughs] it's always weird when they do it in Supernatural.

G: The thing is like, it is true that you benefit socially from it, but like, but it's also true that it's, you know, not the end-all be-all of a good life. But the way Supernatural engages with it.

C: Yeah, like it literally is it. And it also feels like a "women are so shallow and can't see how cool I am on the inside" thing.

G: No, but the way Supernatural processes is, instead of like, "Life is more complex than how one looks," it becomes, "You don't understand. Even attractive people have struggles!" It's so [laughing] incredibly funny. God! Do you think Sam- Sam and Dean are aware that they're attractive, aren't they?

C: Well, yeah, I mean they they fuck and suck so much.

G: Dean is aware. And Sam. So many people fuck and suck so much who are so ugly [C laughs], so like, I don't know, it happens.

C: True. But in the world of Supernatural, you know, like, people only fuck and suck if they're like, hot. [G laughs]

G: I'm trying to think anyone who has fucked and sucked in Supernatural who was ugly.

C: I guess there's like, parents who, like, presumably fucked and sucked at some point in their life. [G laughs] But I think I'm mostly thinking about in "Metamorphosis" when, you know, there's like, the fat guy trying to hit some girl up at a bar, and it's like, "Eww! Like, you're such a creep, you're so gross," you know, like [G: Yeah.], it just seems to be a thing.

G: Yeah. Supernatural has- is not representative of the general population. [laughing]

C: No way! Really?

G: Who'd have thunk?

C: And then he goes, "You ever feel like your whole future is being decided for you?" And Dean's like, "Um, yeah?"

G: [laughs] Fuck the plan!

C: Yeah, and Gary's like, "You know, you just can't stop the stupid plan, so like, it's just nice to do some ass-kicking for a change, you know?" And Dean's like, "No, I totally get you, like, I feel like we're connecting soo much, and also, wow, like, we never drink together, dude!" [laughs] God. Two episodes ago, Sam was like, "Any last words to each other?" [G laughing] Dean was like, "Eh. I'm good."

G: It is so funny. I think that's what we're supposed to believe, that like, the reason why Dean doesn't just clock it immediately is because he likes it. It's a positive change for him.

C: Yeah, like, he wants this to be their relationship. [laughs]

G: Yeah, they drink together. [C: Yeah.] Sam says, "You're a good guy, Dean." [C: Yeah.] and Dean doesn't say anything back positive. [both laughing] Which is the ideal relationship, honestly!

C: Last episode, in "Sam Interrupted," Sam was also like, "You know, like, you're weird, but I love you. You're my brother." [G: Yeah.] And Dean was just like, "Fuck off." Man.

You know, Gary's a big fan of the burger 'cause he's not allowed to eat bread because of his allergies.

G: I do love that detail.

C: Yeah, that is fun. I think if I wasn't able to eat bread, I might also dabble in a bit of witchcraft about it. I get it. Rice noodles are better than wheat noodles, though, so maybe I'd be fine.

G: I hate wheat noodles to my core.

C: Udon's a wheat noodle. You don't like udon?

G: Okay, well, it's fine, then. [both laugh] I changed my mind completely, yeah. I don't think I eat bread that much. Or maybe, like, the forms of bread I eat, I don't register as bread. Maybe that's more accurate. No, I just don't eat bread that much. Oh my gid! I ate at Five Guys [C: Yes.] when I was at Hong Kong. It's so wonderful! I was like, "I get it! Dean Winchester, I understand you fully!" [C laughs] I get it. It's so good.

C: Yeah, if I hadn't watched this episode at 2 AM, I probably would have done that thing I did the last time a burger was mentioned in Supernatural [both laughing] and gone out and got one. They're really good at advertising burgers.

G: I mean, [laughing] I was so excited to eat at a Denny's because of Supernatural. Like, Supernatural is just a 15-year-long American food diner situation advertisement, [laughs] yeah.

C: Right, and then this is where Gary's like, chatting with Crystal at the bar, so yeah, we're caught up. And then he heads out with her and says excitedly to Dean, "We're gonna do it!" [laughs] [G: So stupid.] Yeah. And this is when Dean looks suspicious, somehow. Well, is it that Sam's rebuffed the the advances of milves in the past?

G: I think it's just that Sam is like, embarrassed to have sex, like a Protestant. [C: True.] [laughs] And so now that he's proud of it, it's like, "Who is this?" [C: True.]  I love how I said [both] "like a Protestant." [both laugh]

C: Yeah. You're staying loyal to your own.

G: Yeah. [laughs] We have to save a little bit of face as Catholics.

C: Yeah. Catholics are very proud of fucking and sucking. [G laughs]

G: Well, we should be! Oh, no, [laughs] we shouldn't be, due to all of the controversies in the Church that are so horrible.

C: Oh, yeah. I guess. I guess that is the situation.

-

G: Sam wakes up. He's tied up in a chair, and Trevor and Nora is there, and these are, you know, Gary's friends from earlier. And yeah, they're also in on this. And like, Trevor, the way they're portrayed is Nora is kind of like a- She's apprehensive. She's kind of here just because her buddies are here kind of situation. [C: Yeah.] And Trevor is really into it, like, DnD LARPing levels.

C: Yeah. We learn later that the demons never told him what his reward was, and he still went with all of it.

G: Yeah, you have to negotiate that first, buddy!

C: Yeah, it could have been $2, how do you know that it would have been worth it?

G: Yeah, I thought, honestly, that he was gonna ask for a college acceptance somewhere, [laughs] which I think it would have been hilarious.

C: Right. Well, because Nora was planning to ask for college acceptance to Vassar. [G: Yeah.] Which, like, not to be a snob, but like, [both] but why?

G: I also did think that.

C: It's not even the women's school. Like, not Wellesley? Like, [laughs] I don't get it. There's other reasons to like a school, blah blah blah, it's about fit not ranking, blah blah blah. [laughs]

G: If you're gonna fucking sell your soul for it [both laugh], I feel like you should also sacrifice other things.

Trevor is so into it. The rest of this episode. He's like, doing, like, this thing where he's like, performing a little bit. Like, at some point, he tells Nora, like, "Oh, our Satanic overlord" or whatever, and Nora is like, “Don't be a fucking loser.” [both laugh] which I thought was so funny. Hilarious! He said, "You should commit to the bit, but not that much." His parents are out of town, and that's why he's here, and he calls up Gary, who is in the lady's bed. And  he's bragging, you know, drinking, sleeping with women, blah blah blah. Sleeping with one woman, and it hasn't happened yet. Trevor asks where Dean is, which is like, you know, I never really figured out before, like, why this is happening, why Gary did this. I just thought he wanted to have a change of look. [C: Yeah.] He just wanted to change his clothes, his hair, his face, just like Bruce Springsteen.

C: Yeah. Played by Jeremy Allen White.

G: Ugh. Let's not talk about it. [both laugh] This is the first thing time we realize that oh, there's a deeper motive to all of this shit. Because when Trevor was asking for Dean, I actually was thinking, like, "Wait, is he gonna transform into Dean, or what?" [C laughs] That would be quite funny. But yeah, he isn't. They just have to kill Dean. And I realized this the same time Sam does, which is pretty fun when that happens in a TV show. [C: Yeah.] Gary realizes also that Sam is just hanging around in his body and meeting his family and stuff. Crystal ends up being, as you said, I don't know, a dominatrix of some kind.

C: Yeah, she's in leather. She has a flog.

G: Trevor's distressed that, "Oh, Gary's not actually gonna push through it." And Sam's like, "Wait, how do you know Dean?" And they say that demons have been talking to them or whatever, and hell's number one most wanted is Dean. There's like, this thing where Nora starts telling the story of how it happened, and Trevor tries to stop her, but she's like, "Oh, so we can't talk about him?" And yeah, she's like, "We were goofing around with that book," and Trevor's like, "Um, I wouldn't call it goofing around." [both laugh]

C: "We were praying to our Dark Lord."

G: Yeah. And Nora's like, "Don't be a fucking loser." [both laugh] Like, Nora says, "Don't be a loser, Trev." And Sam goes, [both] "Yeah, Trev." You know what? Sam is funny.

C: Yeah, no, he's funny this episode.

G: I retract everything that I've ever said. He is funny.

C: Yeah, he just needed a good, like, partner, for a scene, you know?

G: Yeah. And also he needs, like, a situation. He is a situational comedy kind of guy.

Nora shows this drawing of Dean that's pretty good, and it's Gary who went into "a weird trance [pronounced like trans]," as I've said earlier. [C laughs] And yeah, he just started drawing, and then he draw Dean. And like, I like that they're painting them as, you know, kind of loser teenagers who are in over their heads. [C: Yeah.] Because well, they are, number one, number two, it's fun to see. Like, it's funny. It's amusing. But when she was like, "And you know what the thing is? He can't even draw." [laughs] I was just like, "I don't think that's actually the thing, honestly, but like, good for you." She's like, "Oh, Gary had this idea to be in your body and then kill Dean, Trojan horse-style. He's really smart." Sam proceeds to tell Gary later that Nora is in love with him [laughs] because of this comment, I guess.

C: Yeah, I guess. I don't quite see it [G: I don't see it also.], but I guess. It's supposed to be obvious to us, I suppose. And, of course, this is Gary's biggest thing to think about after one of his best friends was killed by a demon, [G laughs] [G: Literally!] and this is obviously something that Nora is gonna want to pursue after her body was used to kill one of her best friends, and she was there. But, you know.

G: No, that's crazy. You're right!

C: You didn't [laughs]- you didn't think about that? I mean, the episode doesn't.

G: No, I thought about how Trevor is dead and they'd have to deal with that, but I didn't even think about the fact that Nora, like, Nora's hand killed that guy.

C: Like, her hand, went into his chest and killed him. She's gonna be fucked up. Like, she can't be that normal at the end.

G: Yeah. Anyway, Sam starts this thing where he's like, "Guys, don't kill somebody. Don't do a demon deal. These are two things that are very bad, and you won't ever recover from!"

C: Yeah, he's being quite nice about it, and I know part of it's just to convince them, but I think he's also thinking about his past mistakes, or whatever, right?

G: Yeah, that's why I was putting on that voice. [laughs] Yeah, he's thinking, like, "Just like me for real. And everyone's a mirror to me!" [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] Like, later when he starts talking to Gary at the end, and he's like, "Believe me. I know." [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] So fucking stupid.

C: I mean, he is allowed to project all people if he wants to. [G: Yeah.] Like, this is a situation that is fairly similar, like there's people who are naive, who are trusting a demon, not knowing what they've gotten into. [G: Yeah.] It's not quite the same, because he was trying to save the world, and they just want to go to Vassar and get money, but still.

G: Yeah. And Nora immediately folds at Sam's one request. And she's like, "No, but, like, what if this is wrong?" blah blah blah. And then, eventually, Trevor's like, "You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna summon a demon." which he does do, and the demon wakes up in Nora's body.

-

C: Meanwhile Gary sneaks into Dean's motel room, I guess, after sex. He has a gun, and he's about to shoot the lump in the bed [G: Great big lump.], but it's not Dean. And Dean ambushes him and goes, "You're not Sam. Who the hell are you?" Took you long enough.

G: Yeah, it is fascinating to me also that he waited for confirmation in this way. [C: Yeah.] Like, he waited for Gary to come in and point the gun at him, quote-unquote, before he was like, "Yeah, you're not Sam."

C: Yeah, he was like, "Huh, I don't know. Maybe Sam's just having a good day."

G: Yeah, he really exhausted his options.

C: I guess if you want to be charitable to the writers of Supernatural and to Dean Winchester, it's like, they had a talk recently about how they need to trust each other more, blah blah blah, and in the past, when Dean pushed when Sam was acting weird, it led to a rift. But I think that what you said about how Dean just didn't examine it closely because he prefers it that way is the actual truth.

Nora, possessed by the demon, is talking and going like, "Oh, like, where's Dean Winchester?" She learns that Gary is inside Sam's body, and she's like, "Oh my god! Like, what a good opportunity for him to say yes to Lucifer instead." So Trevor's like, “Yeah, I'm so cool. And also, can you give me my reward?” And Sam keeps telling him to shut up, but Trevor just keeps insisting.

G: Sam's like, “Shut the fuck up.”

C: Like, apparently, Trev wants a million bucks, and he wants Mindy Schwartz to fall in love with him. Okay, Trevor. Whatever

G: And then even the demon was like, "Inflation's really bad, you guys." [both laugh]

C: Yeah. Like, "Maybe 10 million." But then she's like, "But actually, I'm gonna kill you." So she pushes her hand into his stomach, and it kills him, and then she licks his blood off of her fingers.

G: It's fun! [C: It is fun, yeah.] It's a fun visual. Loved it. And this actor, this kid, Nora, good.

C: We keep saying "kid." We don't know how- they could be in their twenties. I don't know how old these actors are, but yeah. [G: Yeah.] She did good.

G: When she was Nora, I was like, "Oh, this is funny, a little bit because of how stilted it is." Like, it is a bit silted, but it works for what it's trying to be. [C: Yeah.] And then when she was a demon, I was like, "Oh, maybe they, like, hired her- like, this is the thing that they casted-called for." You know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] This is the thing that they really were trying to get, because she's really good at it!

C: Yeah, her voice and the way that she moves her head and all that.

G: Yeah, you can see that she watched the Meg episodes and was like, "I'm gonna take inspiration from this," which I respect.

-

C: Yes. So Gary's tied up with Dean. This is when he finally hears all the voice messages from Sam. And Gary's freaking out, and Dean's questioning him. And then Dean realizes that Gary's 17, and he's like, "Huh. Well." [laughs] The demon in Nora shows up.

G: Later on, like, he says, right, like, "If you weren't a kid, you'd be dead."

C: Yeah, "If you were of voting age, we would have killed you." [G laughs]

G: It's like, it's funny, 'cause when he had his, "Oh, you're a kid" moment here, he probably was literally thinking like, "[overlapping] Man, I can't kill him! He's just a stupid fucking kid."

C: Voting age is just one year older. Like, where's Gary's birthday? Like, he cut it really close on the being killed thing. [G: Yeah.] Demon shows up, Sam's trying to escape his ropes. Demon tells Gary, like, "Hey, like, you can get whatever you want." He wants to be a powerful witch, and Nora is like, "Great. But first, you have to meet Lucifer, and he'll just ask you a question, and you just have to say yes, so go for it," except she doesn't sound like that. She sounds creepy and cool. But yeah.

G: This is a terrifying aspect that I feel like we haven't talked about. [C: Yes.] Like, Sam's body is just there. An empty vessel, basically. [C: Right.] It's so- it's giving me the creeps, like, right now, as we speak!

C: It is. It's a good plot point, yeah.

G: And I liked- you know, like, sometimes we're like, "Oh, it's an interesting idea, and they don't do anything with it." I like what they do with it here like. It's just a subtle thing that, like, it's brought up a little bit, and it's not like, in your face, because yeah, the horror of it is-

C: It wasn't part of the grand plan. It just is an opportunistic thing that this demon's bringing up now.

G: Yeah, like, the horror of it is that it's just like, this really unlucky thing that could have happened, and it's just such a very near miss, and it wasn't even someone intentionally setting out to do it. It's just sometimes, your luck is not with you, and then you're the devil's vessel. [laughs] Like, it happens! [C: It happens.] And yeah, it's terrifying.

C: Yeah, and it also establishes that Sam's body [G: Is separately.]- like, it's ability to hold Lucifer is separate from, like, him as a person, which is also, like, good horror, I think.

The demon attacks Dean and gets him to the ground, and then Gary starts trying to exorcise her. She's like, trying to attack Gary, but when she's attacking Gary, Dean continues the exorcism, and then, like, when she's attacking Dean, Gary's doing it. So like, they just trade off lines until it finishes.

G: It's so- honestly, it's kind of corny when they start trading off lines because it started out as "Gary can't speak because he's being, like, tracked down or whatever," [C: Uh-huh.] and so Dean chimes in, and now they're just like, "We're having a brother moment!" and like, that's not your brother. [laughs]

C: Yeah, this whole scene, I was just thinking about how like, I think this is, for, like, the Supernatural fanboys. [G: Yeah?] You know, like, it's like, for the teen boys who are watching Supernatural [G: Like, "You too-"] who are like, "I was besties with Sam and Dean, but actually just Dean, [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] and like, I got to listen to rock music and eat cheeseburger, and like, I was soo good at hunting and working together with Dean, just Dean, not Sam, though." [laughs]

G: Honestly, like, when he was like, "Turn the music up!" I was like, "Shut the fuck up!" [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] This kid won't do that. Like, I know, there's kids who actually listen to this shit. [C, laughing: "This shit."] but, like, shut the fuck up! I mean, I also listen to, quote, "this shit," so. But yeah, it just felt so- too much at that point.

C: Yeah, it seems like Supernatural has this metric of "cool" [G: Yeah.] that they think there's just one way to be cool, and it's Dean Winchester. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] It is quite annoying. And again, like, this is, like, the whole thing where it's like, they're nice to their male fans, but not their female fans. [G: This is true, yeah.] "The Real Ghostbusters" was like, fairly nice to Demian and Barnes, and then this is, like, clearly for the high school boy fans of Supernatural. [G laughs] And like, they have, like, a female character in here, and it's like, "Oh, she's only here, 'cause she's in love with that guy," you know? [G: Yeah, yeah.] It irritates me. Like, I know I said in "The Real Ghostbusters," like, "I don't think anyone wants to be Sam and Dean. That's my issue with it." But like, I think my actual issue with it is that I think that there are girls who wanted to be Sam and Dean [G laughs] and, like, Supernatural says again and again, like, "You only like Supernatural because you're attracted to certain men." [G: Yeah. Yeah.] With Becky, with "Fan Fiction," with Nora. It's just all irritating.

G: Yeah. Feminism is, in fact, [laughs] being allowed to hunt. But, like, I'm being so for real like. Like-

C: Yeah. After they killed Ellen and Jo, too. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, it is about women getting to suck just as much as men, and then going, "What if we all didn't suck, though?" Like, either order of those things is good, but since Supernatural doesn't do “what if we didn't all suck?” then, like, just let the women suck and be hunters too. But yeah, the exorcism works. The end.

G: The end.

-

G: Nora's just there. This is the house. Trevor's corpse is somewhere here. [C: Yes.] They never acknowledge it.

C: Yeah, like, what are they gonna do about it? His parents are gonna come back [both] to their dead child, clearly murdered child in the basement? [G: Yeah.] Yeah. And it's gonna come out that Gary was acting weird this week, and he just got driven home by like, two weird men in a classic car.

G: And Nora is like, being driven to his house also? [both laugh] [C: Yeah!] They don't drive her to her house?

C: Yeah, what? So they can fuck it out after Sam tells him? Like, what is this?

G: Gary is reciting a Latin spell to revert Sam and him back to their own bodies. And so yeah, they do. And Sam's like, "Wow, it's really a-me!" And he's like, "Wow, it's nice to be back." And Gary's like, “Yeah, I guess.” And Dean puts on his reprimanding voice, and it's like, "Okay, so, Gary." And Gary's like, “I know, my bad.” [both laugh] And Dean's like, "My bad? If you were voting age, we would have killed you!" And he goes, “So you straighten up and fly right, or we will kill you.”

C: Incredibly unhelpful. [G: Yeah.] You should be like, "Hey, your friend in the basement is dead, and that thing that demon was asking you was for you to be possessed by Lucifer." Like, you need to give him the information. Not just "Be good, or I'll kill you." What does “straighten up and fly right” even mean here, Dean? You're terrible at this.

G: Yeah like, what you're supposed to show is your actions have consequences, and this is an action that could have had really bad consequences.

C: And already did have really bad consequences.

G: Yeah! Sorry, Trevor. [both laughs] But yeah, they don't give a fuck. Also, I did find hilarious Gary's face in this scene. Because [laughs] when Dean goes, “Because we would kill you,” he does this face of like, "Uh?" He's like, “Okay."

C: "I thought we were friends, Dean!” [G laughs]

G: I thought it was the most amusing thing.

C: Also the reason Nora's just wrapped up in a blanket, looking scawed.

G: Yeah. She never speaks again. She has no speaking line again.

C: But yeah, and like, I guess the huddle up in a blanket and not speaking is meant to be like, "She is experiencing some trauma over this," but like, not really. They just don't care about her, so they're like, "Just put it around the background there."

G: You can do one where, like, she still doesn't speak, but like, somebody acknowledges her in any way that's like, "Are you okay?" [laughs] [C: Yeah.] I don't know. It could be done. But also, just give her lines. Like, just give her something to say. But whatever.

C: Like, she could be part of the like, "straighten up and fly right" conversation. Like, she could be angry at Gary or something, you know?

G: Yeah. But yeah, all we learn from that is that "She doesn't actually want to be a witch. She's just in love with you!" [C sighs] It's so fucking stupid. [C: So fucking stupid.] Yeah. But as someone who did get into astrology [laughs] [C: No.] because of a romantic interest, I understand.

C: Ow.

G: Sam is like, "Hey, Gary, you have to listen to me. Your life, it's not that bad." And Gary's like, "Um, you met my parents."

C: They're totally fine. They're fine.

G: He should have said, "My best friend is dead."

C: "I can't eat bread"? [both laugh] Or that.

G: Like, your life was fine, but now it's horrible, so, I don't know. [C: Yeah.] And Sam's like, “No, it's your life! You don't like their plan for you? Tell them to cram it, and then proceed to facilitate the death of your best friend!" [both laugh] And he's like, "You know, rebel a little, in a healthy, non-Satanic way." And he's like, "You know, Nora's into witchcraft because she's in love with you!" [C: Boo!] And Gary’s like, “Wow! You really think that?" [C: Boo!] And Sam's like, "I know. I'm telling you, kid. I wish I had your life." [laughs]

C: In the sense that where we talk about the issues- where we're like, "It's fine that Sam and Dean's idea of settling down involves having a wife because that's just what's expected," I do think it's also- like, I don't know. This whole, “Oh, Gary's miserable. But it's okay. I'm gonna get him a girlfriend, and then he'll be fine.” It’s an idea of feeling entitled to or needing the affection of a woman [G: Yeah.] in order to be complete or whatever in a way that feels misogynistic.

G: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily misogyny. Like, I wouldn't label it primarily as misogyny. Again, I would label it primarily as social whatever whatever.

C: Yeah, yeah, I guess it's the flattening of Nora's-

G: Yeah, the flattening of Nora's definitely misogyny.

C: Yeah, that's the issue more than- yeah.

G: I don't know. It's just so- different time. I mean, even now, I think maybe- I've met straight people. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] I've talked to them. And it's still a pervasive idea, I feel, that you do need someone like that. To be in a relationship. [C: Yeah.] And I'm not judging. Like, I understand that some people function better in that-

C: Some queer people also feel like they need to be in a relationship.

G: Yeah. There are some people who function better in that kind of, like, dynamic, in that kind of setting, and yeah, good for them.

C: An economist named Corinne Low, I think, has a working paper about how, basically, if women get married to a man, they end up doing more housework than they did when they were living alone because [G: It's for two people, yeah.] there's two people after, and the man does absolutely nothing, but in lesbian relationships, they do the same amount. Same-sex gay male relationships it's more specialized in that the one who earns more does less housework, and the one who earns less does most of it. But the point of her paper was that even in households where the woman earns more, and therefore it would make more sense for her to spend more of her time on her career, [G: She also does housework more, yeah.] she does way more housework than the man, etc, etc. Which is known, but it was fun to see the graphs about how bad the gap is. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, anyway, some people might function better in a relationship, but in terms of, like, how they use their time well, it actually is a drag on your life [both laugh], like, on average, if you're a woman married to a man.

G: Yeah, but I can't tell my straight friends that, can I? [both laugh]

Yeah. Sam's like, "I wish I had your life." Yeah. Gary and Nora head out.

C: Yeah. For Gary's house. Why?

G: [laughs] I don't know. Well, Dean says, "That was a nice thing for you to say." [both laughing] And Sam just goes, "I totally lied. That kid's life sucked ass." And Dean's just stares at him. [C: So funny.] It's so good! Love that!

C: Sam was really funny this episode, yeah. [G: Yeah.] And I don't know how in character I find this line, but also I think it's so funny, so it's fine.

G: Yeah, it is pretty funny. And I find it hilarious because, you know, this is their, you know, "Sam has a one-liner about what he learned from the episode" or whatever, and like, the most iconic one that we have had so far, I think, is "Hope's kind of the whole point." [C: Right.] [laughing] And then the second one is this one, which I find so incredibly funny.

C: Yeah. That kid's life sucked ass. [G: Yeah.] He specifically says that "the apple pie family crap is stressful," which I don't know if I caught that as Sam's main. Like, it seemed like his issue was that it was very limiting [G: Yeah, restrictive.] to be a kid. But like, what does "stressful" mean here. Is this just connected to his like, "we shouldn't have any connections with other people because we're gonna bring them down with us," etc. stuff? Like, I don't think he was at all concerned about Gary's sister or parents.

G: Yeah. And also, stressful is such a fascinating way to put it because, well, I'm pretty sure hunting is also stressful.

C: Yeah, it seems kind of stressful to me.

G: So like, that shouldn't be the metric that you're measuring here.

C: Yeah. I guess if Sam's passively suicidal, there is some relief to the stress of hunting 'cause the stress is like, "I might die." You know? [G: Yeah. Well.]

C: But yeah, I think if they wanted to end on it being stressful, he should have connected with Gary's family at all, and they should have been somewhat in danger at a point.

G: Yeah, why is Dean connecting with this random-ass 17-year-old, and then Sam's like, unable to connect with anyone? [C laughs]

C: Yeah, he's like, “All of you are fucking losers.”

G: Yeah. They hop into the car, and, you know, Sam's like, “We didn't miss a thing,” and Dean's like, “I don't know. Or maybe we don't know what we're missing.” And then he starts the car. Music blasts. Sam's like, "Ugh, turn it down." And yeah, that's the end of the episode. Again, I enjoyed it.

C: I enjoy it more [both] now that I've talked about.

G: Yeah. We had a fun conversation about- yeah.

C: Yeah. When we talked about, like, the Lucifer possession thing, I was like, "Fine. This is allowed to fit into Season 5 canon, whatever." I still think that Sam just not really connecting to anyone is strange to me. But yeah, it was mostly a fun time.

G: I did- I never really thought about the foreshadowing for Lisa. I never really viewed Season 5 in that lens before, and well, I think it's nice to be viewing it now and be seeing those bricks be built, you know?

C: Yeah. Pretty clumsily, I would say. But yeah.

G: Yeah, but, you know, I'm fascinated by it, you know? Like, Supernatural- being a fan of Supernatural has taught me so many alternative words to "like." [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] A lot of Supernatural is not about liking it. It's about finding it interesting, which are very different things, and I think it's interesting. [C: Mm-hm.] Well, Best Line/Worst Line.

C: I mean, "That kid's life sucked ass" is pretty iconic.

G: It's hilarious, yeah. I think my worst line is when Gary was like, “No, you're a good guy, Dean,” [C laughs] or whatever he says there. It's so stupid!

C: It is quite fucking stupid. My worst line is when Sam tells Gary that Nora likes him.

G: Yeah, that was also bad. I think my best line is when Sam's like, “Yeah, Trev.” [both laugh] [C: That was pretty good.] When he said that, I burst out laughing, and I was downstairs, in the living room, and my sister's boyfriend, who found out earlier that day that I was watching Supernatural, [laughs] was there, and so I snorted, and then I immediately was like, "No! He's going to think I find Supernatural funny!"

C: "No, he can't know that I'm laughing at Supernatural!"

G: [laughing] And I literally was. It's so embarrassing.

C: Well, it was funny. [G: It was funny.] Yeah.

G: Spreadsheets.

C: Okay. Misogyny exists. 

G: Who’d’ve thunk. I think it’s 2. 

C: 1 or 2, yeah. 2 sounds good to me.

G: You know, when we were editing “Abandon All Hope,” and I was listening to myself talk about the misogyny of that episode, I wanted to kill me [C laughs] for not putting it higher. [C: Yeah.] But we don’t do the retroactive- [C: We could go back!] You want- [C: We could do it, yeah.] We need to put a 4 or a 3 in there. [laughs]

C: Yeah, yeah, cause right now, we only have it as a 1. Yeah, I think I was mostly swayed by you during the recording. And then later, I think I saw the reviews where people were like, “And I found out that they killed Ellen and Jo because the fans said that they hated them.” And I was, like, “How could they? This is awful.” [G: Yeah.] Okay, yeah. Let's just put a 4. [G: Yeah.] Alright. Racism. Not that I recall. 

G: Yeah. Homophobia? [C: Homophobia.] I would say there’s a 1 here. Just the general vibe of the salad. [C and G laugh]

C: The general vibe of the salad, yeah.

G: Yeah. Okay, IMDb.

C: I think people would like this because they generally like the funny ones, and they like when Supernatural does something new. However, I wonder if they think that it's unrealistic that Dean wouldn't notice, or if they find Gary annoying [G: Annoying.] “The Real Ghostbusters” way. [G: Yeah.] So.

G: I wanna mention it again, I do think the way they filmed this episode was pretty cool. That one flub with the telephone notwithstanding, all the mirror scenes are so good. They must have just put Jared and then the kid on the other side, right? [C: Yeah, probably.] And then made them act the same. Fun. It was so good. Also, I was bothered a little bit by the eyelines. Because when Dean and the kid are talking, Dean's eyes are directed at the kid’s eyes [C: Yeah, they should be higher.] and it should be a foot above, because Sam’s so tall. [C: Yeah.] So IMDb. 

C: I’m gonna guess an 8.7, which was “The Curious Case”’s score, I feel like it’s in that territory.

G: I would say this is an 8.5. I am sticking with the rating of “Sam, Interrupted.” [C: Okay.] Okay, let's see. Oh. [C: What?] It’s an 8.2.

C: Oh, they really thought that kid was annoying.

G: Yeah, this one is like, “It's funny. But does it handle the plot well? The writers don't handle Gary well. Their solution to his story feels too slight and pat. It feels like a cheat that Sam and Dean only warned him.” Yeah.

C: The next review is like, “What the fuck happened to Trevor's body?” [G: Yeah.] Real. Same.

G: People are in general agreement that this is just fine or worse than that. [C: Yeah.] Yeah, “This episode makes no sense. Unlike a shapeshifter, Gary, the witch, has zero insight into Sam's mind when he takes his body so everything from his posture to the way he talks should give him away.”

C: But the point is he’s sort of a Sam mirror. So it just happens that he can sort of pass it off. 

G: No, I think we can assume that he was given ideas by demonic blah blah blah, or he observed Sam, or something. He must know something about Sam, because the demons talk to them about Dean. And also he planned to do it. [C: Right.] They were tracking Sam and Dean somehow, in some way.

-

G: That’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week- or maybe next time. Who knows at this point? We will be discussing Season 15, Episode 13: "The Song Remains the Same." Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at bustyasianbeautiespod@gmail.com. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

[mittensmorgul]

So for the most part, I outright reject the finale. But I do think, in light of the whole "Jimmy was supposed to be in the bar, and Dean was disappointed by that because his perfect heaven would have Cas in it" just makes me all the more convinced that the final episode was some kind of djinn dream. Like.... There's no other explanation in my opinion. If Dean's perfect heaven was supposed to have Cas, and he tragically gets faked out by Jimmy (????? Why tf would jimmy be there anyway), it just proves that it's not ACTUALLY heaven. That, along with he El Sol beer he's drinking is all the evidence I need. I think after 15x19, Dean and Sam got whammied by some monster, and are stuck in a hallucination, and that's what we're seeing. (My headcanon is that it's actually The Empty doing it, because it knows if it doesn't keep Dean and Sam occupied and spinning in circles, they'll invade the Empty to save Cas. So its trying to prevent that) :)

Hello, anon friendo! I am gonna start by offering the socially distanced version of a high five, because yeah... There is just so much to unpack here, and you provided such a succinct and all-encompassing series of statements to start from. Thank you!

*flings open array of questionable suitcases*

First off, Congrats on having rejected the finale. I know a lot of folks are still struggling with that one, for many reasons. But you have hit upon so many of the points I’ve been trying to make about the finale since it aired. I’d just like to start with some of the assumptions I’ve heard from folks about the finale that make it impossible for me to consider it fully honestly canon. Because so much about it just makes no goshdang sense... like... not at all...

One of the biggest issues I have surrounding the reception of the finale in parts of fandom is that it portrayed a “happy ending.” The show itself spent the entire final season telling us that a gravestone marked Winchester was not and never would be a happy ending (thank you Becky Rosen-- words I never thought I’d say, but honestly and most sincerely meant). Let’s break this down a bit.

Starting from the assumption that “heaven was fixed” so that characters could have true free will there, making it satisfying in any way that Dean died so young and never got to truly experience happiness during life, I would like anyone who has adopted this attitude to then explain Kansas the band. I mean... explain that in any satisfactory canon-compliant way. (hint: you can’t. it makes zero sense in canon, if heaven is truly reformed and “happy” with everyone in possession of free will.)

Which brings me to Misha’s comments about Jimmy being in the Roadhouse. Why, if heaven were truly fixed, would Jimmy ever in a bazillion years attend a party for Dean Winchester? If Heaven were truly a “happy” ending for Dean, why introduce this element of eternal tragedy and heartbreak to his heaven experience? Why taunt him with the eternal loss of Cas-- even if you don’t think he reciprocated Cas’s romantic feelings, he was canonically the best friend Dean ever had, and being forced to exist forever in a place where he had everyone else he ever cared for except for Cas? Is frankly horrific.

How the actual fuck is that a happy ending, in any sense of the word?

How is this the sort of heaven that Dean would’ve made for himself before it was “fixed?” At least in the memorex heaven, he could’ve lived in oblivious peace with Cas, even if it was always just his own memories and not ~actually Cas~. I honestly think that would’ve been happier than the abject tragedy of what we did get, and what we would’ve gotten had the original script played out.

All of this kind of makes me wonder if they ever even actually defeated Chuck. Like... it feels more like Dean got pulled into the Empty at that moment with Cas and Billie, and everything else after that point was the Empty’s endless experience of sorrow and despair we knew it subject its charges to. So that’s one potential for what could’ve actually happened. I mean, everything about the finale was sorrow and despair, you know? Dean didn’t even get to enjoy his pie at a pie festival because Sam smashed in in his face. How is any of it happy, in any way?

Because if that was actually heaven, there wasn’t actually any free will (because why tf would Kansas the band have chosen to put on that concert? why tf would Jimmy have been there, just to torment Dean with the taunt of Cas returning to him only to have that hope snatched away again? It’s cruel. It’s, in fact, a source of intense despair).

The djinn theory could also work, and I’ve read some excellent fix-it fic using that as a premise. But that doesn’t really explain what happened to Jack (and Amara, since she was in there with them) after hoovering up Chuck’s power, you know? I think the simplest explanations in canon are that Chuck actually won via the unified power of Light and Dark being transferred into Jack and effectively using him as a vessel. With Sam and Dean convinced they’d won, they effectively stopped resisting Chuck’s story for them, and using Jack’s understanding of humanity and the Winchesters specifically, Chuck finally was able to implement a version of his story that the Winchesters would just waltz into without thinking it was supernaturally influenced at all. Going bigger and bigger with monsters and cosmic troubles hadn’t worked, but going so small Sam and Dean would barely even notice the influence-- even with the incongruous reappearance of a vampire that appeared in their lives once, for like two whole minutes 15 years ago, and an unsolved case from the journal from more than 30 years ago that John had never even linked to vampires at all.

At this point, I need to mention that I’m watching 10.23 as I type this up. An episode in which we confront the Mark, along with Death, and Dean’s despair, where he learns a version of the truth (but by no means the full truth, or even accurate truth in some respects) about Chuck’s Story, Amara/The Darkness, etc. That would unfold more fully over the next five seasons. And what was the case Dean took in this episode? Vampires. LOLOL omg this show is nothing if not horrifically consistent, yes?

So because of this, I went haring off through my own blog looking for a post I made a long time ago about the symbolism of how various monsters are used on this show (because again, consistency). I got sidetracked by other posts in my monsters tag, including this from after 15.09 aired, which feels particularly awfully relevant. This was my reaction to Chuck’s Story he showed Sam in that episode, about what the future would look like should he successfully trap Chuck with a Mark, and which... yeah is basically exactly thematically consistent with what we saw in the finale, right down to a cheesy twist on vampires. Read the whole post right here, but this is the part that reached up and punched me in the face:

this is how Dean personally reacts when he loses Cas. We know how he reacts when he loses anyone else– think about what he did when Charlie died. He went on a murder rampage against the Stynes for killing her. When Mary died he broke some furniture and went full bore toward both resurrecting her and stopping Jack. But without Cas, Dean loses the will to fight. Sam has… always been different. He referenced Jess in 15.04 to remind us of how he was after she died in the pilot episode. Just like John, he picked up the revenge mission and ran with it. But for Dean, Cas is different. Without Cas… Dean gives up.

Because... Dean gave up. Sure, he and Sam weren’t overrun by vampires in the end. Chuck knew they’d never stop fighting the monsters, one way or another. The only way to get Dean to give up is something Chuck hadn’t quite figured out yet... maybe not until after 15.17, after confronting Cas in the hallway of the bunker, after absorbing Amara’s power, knowledge, and perspective on Dean.

Chuck needed Dean to give up, and honestly? Pushing Billie to clear him off the table and send him (and Cas, that pesky angel who never did what he was told) to the Empty would’ve been a direct way to deal with that... pretty much akin to having one sibling locked in a cage forever, yes?

Also, still looking through my monsters tag, I’m reminded of 14.15, and still cannot differentiate the version of Heaven in 15.20 from what was done to the people of that town. This... is not... paradise. This is actively what Dean has been insisting is the OPPOSITE of paradise since like… 4.22… No ending where Dean was a “Stepford bitch in paradise” ever had the possibility of being “happy,” at the core of things, and this “fixed” version of Heaven just doesn’t hold up to any degree of inspection. Something is seriously wrong here. https://mittensmorgul.tumblr.com/post/183465650390/so-can-we-talk-about-this-monster-of-the-week-for

And since I was unable to find the post I wrote who knows how long ago about Monsters and how they’re symbolically used on Supernatural to represent larger themes in the episode, I’ll just attempt to sum up what Vampires have been used for. Revenge. Vampires are always, in some way connected to themes of revenge.

(and hooray, I found at least a post adjacent to the one I’ve spent the last four hours trying to find... https://mittensmorgul.tumblr.com/post/187207052080/i-obviously-did-not-think-this-through, where I mention that shapeshifters are about revealing hidden truths (mostly about Dean since most shapeshifters are connected to Dean), zombies are about grief and the inability to move past it.)

So why... why at the end of their road is the monster that comes after them-- literally FOR REVENGE for something that had never been blamed on Sam or Dean to begin with, from season 1, directly connected to John’s revenge mission and the first time they learned about the Colt AND the first time they learned in canon that Vampires were even real... like... this feels very specifically like some kind of layers-of-meta levels of shade on them, you know? Vampires are for revenge, so what vengeance exactly is being visited upon Sam and Dean in this episode? If not Chuck’s entire story for them itself?

So yeah, 100% agree, something is incredibly rotten in the finale. And I am sick to effing death of people trying to convince us that anything about this was “good” or “happy” or “satisfying” in any way. Or even “how it was always supposed to end” with Dean dead bloody, as if the entire back half of the series hadn’t been suggesting that a true win was the subversion of all of Chuck’s story for them, and Dean finally being able to have his chosen family all alive, happy, and chilling on a beach somewhere watching the sunset. Nothing will ever convince me that the ending portrayed in 15.20 wasn’t exactly how Chuck thought he “won,” rendering it entirely irrelevant to the rest of canon, unless all of canon was ultimately the tragedy we’d been encouraged to believe would be firmly defeated in the end.

Folks, you can’t have it both ways. 

[prolix-yuy]

My reaction when I had Tumblr open just as you were posting Chapter 8. Also if Chapter 9 is titled Fire I'm going to lose it.

Because I can't help telling you how much I like your writing, I'm commenting my "very smart intelligent analysis" (read: screams) below so you can see how you destroy and rebuild me every time you post a new chapter

Not once does the bounty hunter glance behind to see if you’re keeping up. In fact, he hasn’t spoken a word.

The distance isn’t lost on you.

DIN BABY WE GOTTA FACE OUR PROBLEMS. This gave me secondhand sadness because they're both struggling but NEED TO TALK ABOUT IT.

Blaster training is one of my favorite Mando tropes. I miiiiight have just written one of my own and I was stoked to see we're on the same brainwaves. Big man teaches weapon go brrrrrr.

Mother of Moons, it feels like everything has reverted back to square one.

His voice no longer holds that softness or understanding it’s grown to possess. Where last night felt like ten steps forward, Mando sure knew how to take it six steps back.

I feel for him, it must be so much to have everything he's never had but wanted dropped into his lap and suddenly have to contend with the consequences. Poor Princess is just caught in his own crossfire.

Firmly he motions your arm, breaking the stiffness in your elbow to a more relaxed stance.

Okay, get out of my head, I literally wrote a sentence just like that. I love it and I love you for knowing exactly what my reptile brain wants.

“But you are holding back.”

“Sounds like someone else I know,” you dare in a succinct verbal punch.

OH NO SHE DI-INT! Tell him off baby, we're getting some blaster therapy here. And I love "best two out of three." Boy does not want to talk about it and it's hilarious if it wasn't about to be sad.

There is a tick in his left shoulder, pushing down and back like he may have been pinged by a tiny weapon. With a curt nod of his own, he puts a label on what you say:

“A mistake.”

STOP IT AMY I'M GONNA CRY.

“You will never see me the way I see you. I will never kiss you the way others can. You will always hold a helmet, not my face.”

Mando’s right hand flexes.

“You are not Mandalorian. You do not hold an oath. I cannot ask that kind of sacrifice from you.”

OH NO NOW I'M ACTUALLY CRYING. This is such a fantastic characterization of Mando and how he feels separated from the rest of the people he meets. And to know that kissing her is his biggest concern...I'm just gonna lie face-down here for a minute and shout into the dirt...

“No. Common marriages are soft. A chance at companionship. Mandalorians are warriors above all else, so it is meant for a promise on and off a battlefield.“

Yes! Another fantastic point! The weight of the situation is very well shown in the way he views marriage. I remember reading somewhere it's also a vow to be together in the afterlife if one or the other is lost in battle, which I always thought was so powerful.

And her questioning what else is hidden in her mind...oooh, we got some plot nuggets here!

THE CONFESSION THAT HE CONSIDERED TAKING OFF THE HELMET NO I'M BACK IN THE DIRT AGAIN AMY WHYYYYY

And they did the "what are we?" conversation too? The feelings keep coming!

“The kid? He’s worried about touching everything in sight,” Mando responds. “For him, that’s, uh… that means he’s happy.”

This made me smile like an idiot, I love the gremlin so much.

Eager, your fingers fall to bunch the tunic’s tie at your hip. With lightning speed he stops you from unraveling the fabric, pressing his large hands over yours.

“Not like that.”

THEN LIKE WHAT MANDO I'M DYING HERE

“Cyar’ika, I just want you.”

cryingscreamingthrowingupfaintingresurrectingbecauseineedtobealiveforpart9

Ahem. As you can tell I was on a rollercoaster of emotions for this chapter. Like I've mentioned tens of times before, I admire the way you treat the Creed and how you're unraveling Mando's feelings and what he wants, probably for the first time for him. I'm totally down for the spice, but I'm also here for the FLAVOR and you're giving me SO MUCH! I read this on AO3 last night and was so excited to vomit my thoughts out for you when you posted here today.

Now I need to go hydrate after all of the sweating I just did

CHAPTER EIGHT: READY, AIM

The POINT A TO POINT B series.

gif credit @ binary—sun

Pairing: Din Djarin x Female Reader ( Din x You )

Word Count: 4.3K

Summary: Arriving on Trask, Mando clears the air about his creed, the romantic implications surrounding it  — and what it means for the two of you.

Warnings: Pet names, Religious guilt, Mention of marriage, Allusions to past sexual situations, Helmet Stays On, Sexual tension, Pinning

A/N: A lil smut appears at the end. 👀 (Minors DNI.) 

Previous Chapter. / Next Chapter (tbd!) | Series Masterlist.

PREVIEW:

“And there is only one exception to our oath.”

“…what kind of exception?”

“Partners,” he laments, sliding his hands down and away with apprehension. “A specific partner, one we trust through life and in the moments of death. One who swears a different vow. One who stands by your side as a friend, a warrior, a confidante, a lov—”

His voice cuts off, causing your expression to fall.

You’re almost certain he was going to finish with lover.

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