#i know people don't like putting Celene and Briala back together but it does make me happy to do it

[riddleredcoats]

tell me about celene and mythal. TELL ME ABOUT CELENE AND MYTHAL! TELL ME ABOUT CELENE AND MYTHAL!!! TELL ME ABOUT CELENE AND MYTHAL!!!!!! TELL ME ABOUT CELENE AND MYTHAL!!!!!

tell me about celene and mythal. please.

please.

I- well, I assume this is about that fantastic Morrigan post that @ammoniteflesh did that I butted in with my ceaseless love about Orlais? I can do that. Settle in, it's a long boi.

Spoilers for The Masked Empire, if you haven't read it (and you should) then this probably won't make much sense. And spoilers for pretty much everything else in DA, tbh.

More under the cut.

The Andraste parallels.

Basically, just copy-paste everything that links Mythal and Andraste in this section. This is a great post/example, though I don't think they are the same, rather just the same story repeating. But TLDR: Betrayal, Heartache, Justice, etc etc etc. I think this is a popular theory I am not going to go much deeper into it.

Celene is compared to Andraste multiple times throughout The Masked Empire. In the play (End-ish of Chapter 5), by Briala (early-ish Chapter 5), and the whole Empress of Fire (both song and the Burning of Halamshiral) debacle. Not only that, but Celene has some genuine thoughts, intentions, and actions about reforming Orlais that are close to what Andraste was doing; they are both trying to reform an imperialist power, granted in different ways (of course) but the parallels aren't meant to be exact.

Fun add-on: Hilarious that Celene basically destroys herself/her image by (in the Fandom, at least, while in Universe is intact for the most part) setting a fire. Because being set on fire was what finally elevated Andraste. It’s still a point for the parallel, just a contrasting parallel rather than a direct one.

Fun add-on, #2: Andraste is described as being a redhead, even in DAI by Cass I think, but is depicted as a white blonde (like Celene in The Masked Empire’s cover or Flemythal's white hair) in multiple paintings throughout Dragon Age. I don’t know what this means, but it’s a fun detail, nonetheless. 

Justice! (But not really)

Both Celene and Mythal are arbiters of Justice, technically.

Celene as empress doles out justice as she wishes (more or less, see Halamshiral), but more specifically she wants to create a more just society for all Orlesians. Yes, of course, there is still that delightful imperialism there, but it just do be like that sometimes. Mythal is described several times as someone who doles out justice, throughout the games by Codex and Solas. She passes judgement, solves conflicts and was ‘the good one’.

Like the story of Elgar’nan and Falon’Din, where she solved it by each having champions and stopping the start of a devastating war. Sorta like Celene solved the Gaspard/Teagan conflict at the beginning of The Masked Empire (end of Chapter 1).

They can both be fair and reasonable but are also known for taking more harsh paths (i.e.; the slums of Halamshiral and the sinner who took divine form and went to Elgar’nan). They both promised to help the elves, yet they both seem to have ditched that idea; Mythal has done arguably very little for centuries, and Celene, while helping, without Briala is less than radical about it.

The Vengeance thing is here too. Celene is, after all, no saint and actively cannot forgive Gaspard for anything he does. Ever. And is definitely on a ‘war path’ by the end of TME. Mythal, similarly seems to be on a warpath forever for ‘a reckoning that will shake the very heavens’, whatever the hell that means. Also, everything Flemythal says in Origins just screams bitterness and vengeance.

Betrayal

Both of these women have been betrayed by those closest to them.

Celene by her court, her champion (The Masked Empire), her nobles (The Masked Empire and Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts), and both of her cousins (Gaspard and Florianne). Also, arguably, Mantillon betrayed her by ‘manipulating’ her into killing her own servants, but that is a whole 'nother bag to untangle. Oh, and Briala of course, by using Celene’s feelings for her and stealing the ruby during a kiss at the end of The Masked Empire.

FleMythal by her daughter (Morrigan), her husband (Elgar’nan, though if you want to include Flemeth’s here it is also applicable, I guess), her sons (if that’s what Dirthamen and Falon’Din really were?), her fellow ‘Gods’. Oh, and Fen’Harel at the end of DAI, too.

Funny is that both Celene and Mythal when it comes to Briala and Solas’ betrayals are fine with it. Celene completely understands Briala by the end of The Masked Empire, as does Mythal at the end of DAI. And they are both betrayed by Solas and Briala in front of Eluvians Which… yeah.

Another parallel; both Briala and Solas say they must do it for ‘The People’, aka, the elves.

The Rebels

Solas and Briala parallel a lot on their own, but their relationships with Mythal and Celene are fascinating too, as is seeing how Solas/Briala view Mythal/Celene.

Obviously, both of these pairs parallel Shartan/Andraste. Actual mention of this is in the play in The Masked Empire for Celene/Briala (Chapter 5 of TME).

Each pair is obviously fond of one another, likely in different ways - but perhaps not.

Interestingly enough if Solas really was in service to Mythal first (like Cole seems to imply in Trespasser) before he rose to ‘Godhood’ then, like Celene/Briala, the relationship likely started privately and then grew into the public like once Briala became Marquise and Solas became Fen’Harel.

If we take what Cole said, ‘He did not want a body. But she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face’, as it really being about Solas/Mythal then we have another interesting parallel between Briala/Solas and Celene/Mythal.

Celene, arguably, makes Briala into what she is by sending her away after having her parents killed. Felassan helped and, of course, Briala herself is the way she is because she is herself, but Celene is the catalyst for her more abrupt change. Briala does not get a scar when she separates herself from Celene; at least not a physical one. Mythal makes Solas into what he is by asking him to come to her.

Interestingly, it is a contrasting parallel – because Celene lets Briala go while Mythal beacons Solas into her service. Which is super interesting, but that is more about the relationship between Briala/Celene than anything else.

The way both Solas/Briala describe Mythal/Celene in-game;

Briala, if you ask about Celene during the peace, but before you go to the servants' quarters, says: ‘Celene is the voice of reason in the empire…’

Solas, in that final Trespasser cutscene: ‘She [Mythal] was a voice of reason, the best of them, and in their lust for power they killed her.”

Granted, Solas is fonder while Briala is a bit harsher in her assessment, but Solas did ‘kill’ Mythal, and whatever wounds Mythal may have caused (which we will get there) have long passed while Celene and Briala’s breakup is more recent. This means very little but i suspect that much like Celene, Mythal also betrayed Solas twice. Once in the times of Arlathan - like Celene killing Briala's parents. And another in recent times - with the burning of Halamshiral. We don't know about it yet, but that's my bet.

Morrigan

Both Mythal (or Flemythal) and Celene have a protective relationship with Morrigan.

Celene is more of a patron and offers financial support and protection. And the protection seems to be mutual (or supposed to be, if Morrigan didn’t bail in WEWH, lmao). Mythal/Flemythal is well, her mother, who is supposed to protect her but who is trying to possess her.

Both of these relationships seem to range from a little contentious (Celene/Morrigan, if you believe the rumours of a palace servant) to very contentious (Flemythal/Morrigan).

Celene seems to not be as intense as Mythal. Morrigan speaks well of her, and Celene does not try to control her like Mythal did, Celene even ‘lets’ her go out into the world – something baby!Morrigan wanted – with her blessing and her protection. I legit find the relationship between them interesting, despite the arguments that apparently took place, lmao. (I also sorta lowkey ship it, but that’s another conversation).

To give the benefit of the doubt; we don’t know how much Mythal was ‘in charge’ of Flemeth (or if they can even act separately) so Morrigan’s abuse might not be Mythal’s fault. But there is no denying that she was abused and that whatever aspect of Mythal, The Mother there was, it absolutely did not act in Morrigan’s favour.

But that is yet another that has nothing to do with Celene/Mythal and all to do with Morrigan.

Symbols matter (or not)

Mythal fought with the Evanuris and the Valmonts fought the Drakons. A bit more *tinfoil* and a lot more thin, but if the Dragon is the divine form like we suspect from Codex Entry in the Temple of Mythal, then the Valmonts having gone to war with the Drakon line could be another interesting parallel. After all, the Drakons are represented by dragons. There is also, technically, the 'full' title of the quest where Celene appears in:

The Old Gods will call to you, From their Ancient Prisons they will sing. Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts, On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight, The First of My children, lost to night. - Canticle of Silence 3:6

Finally, and this is really silly and not really a parallel and most likely it’s just a fun coincidence, but the name Celene, which comes from the root word ‘Selene’, means ‘Moon’, which, of course, Mythal is the Goddess of.

Unimportant sidenote: I am pettily annoyed that most characters pronounce it ce-LI-ne when it should be ce-LE-ne. Because Celine is a legit different name and Celine-Celene have different meanings and root words, but okay I’ll allow it because I do like the pronunciation ‘Celine’ better, lmao.

[deusexlachina]

My quest to find the Objectively Best Ending for Wicked Eyes Wicked Hearts

I've been trying to determine which of the endings to Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts is best for the elves overall.

Unsurprisingly, considering the elves' well-being at all puts us immediately down to just two. But which of those two is one of the most controversial issues in the entire series. It is, perhaps, the ultimate SKUB of Dragon Age.

But there is stuff to go on! I've reviewed all relevant evidence and present it here.

Ending spoilers to both Inquisition and Trespasser below!

The obvious choice is Briala rules through Gaspard. That one does outright say in the epilogue that elves get more rights. A lot of people say it's horrible for the elves, but...it's in the text. If you're just declaring it doesn't work, or doesn't really give the elves more rights, we're no longer talking about the actual game, we're talking about your fanfic.

But the text also suggests another ending might be at least as good. There's stuff to go on, but it's a little more ambiguous, which is where the arguments start.

To try and clarify things, I've sorted things by how solid they are as evidence (from clearest to most tenuous):

A sentimental butcher

Out of curiosity, I looked up the Briala+Celene scene. Both of them make a speech before the nobility, encouraging elves and humans to work together, to the cheering of (literally) faceless masses. That...doesn't sound bad for elves at all!

On a material note, Briala gets named Marquise of the Dales, the same title she gets if she rules through Gaspard. Now, in that ending, she has much more power than her title would suggest, because she has leverage over the emperor...but in Briala+Celene, the empress owes her her life and publicly admits as much.

Where people really sour on this ending is Celene's history (in The Masked Empire) of using Briala as a mere tool while slaughtering her people as a show of force. As a relationship, Celene and Briala is just disgusting. But, as twisted as it is, Celene is attached to Briala and, because of that attachment, helps the elves to keep Briala happy. She's a sentimental butcher. From TME, Briala knew that when she ditched Celene. Knowing that, I like to think Briala's big show of 'realizing Celene still loves her' is, at least partly, a cynical ploy to play on that crass sentimentalism - we know all three are playing the Game!

So it's not that Briala lacks leverage, it's that she has a different sort. Less "do-what-I-say-or-else"...but more of the official ruler actually being willing to help, meaning Briala doesn't have to hide her influence, Celene's not just doing the bare minimum to get her off her back, and Briala has way better PR.

But which form of leverage gets better results?

The elves are happy

The epilogue doesn't specifically mention elves getting more rights...but it does say Orlais is "resplendent" (attractive and impressive). On its face, that sounds pretty good. It sounds even better when you see it's the only ending where Orlais is "resplendent." Compare it with the other Celene endings:

Public Truce: "Even the elves have no rest, with Briala's uprising rocking the empire to its core." Elves have both cause and ability to rebel

Briala Exiled: "Elven daggers rule the night" - Elves have both cause and ability to rebel

Briala Killed: "The civil war is ended and order finally restored. The empress is unchallenged… but at what price? Blood drips from Celene's hands, and all her court know it." - Elves have cause but not ability to rebel

Note that the elves' fate is always addressed, either explicitly or implicitly. Makes sense - they were a part of the civil war! With Briala+Celene, the elven resistance is not "pacified." Nothing suggests that they lack the ability to rebel. The only (other) situation in which they definitely can rebel but don't - Gaspard+Briala - is because they get more rights. So if they're not rebelling here...the most likely explanation is because they get more rights. Even if Celene could manipulate Briala, there's no reason for the other rebels to go along with that unless they get concessions. And the big speech suggests they will.

Possible downsides of a relationship with a mass murderer?

It's certainly conceivable that Celene would go back on her word. But if she did, that would be worth mentioning in the epilogue. The only 'but' mentioned is that people wonder how long the union will last, presumably since (from The Masked Empire) Celene has already proven herself a murdering snake and Briala would likely drop her like a stone if she tried that yet-a-fuckin'-gain.

So things could change for the worse...but that possibility is also mentioned in Briala ruling through Gaspard. In fact, "people wonder" here vs. "it is only a matter of time" there suggests that, if anything, this one might be more stable. The blackmail goes south as soon as Gaspard stops caring about the blackmail, or if anyone else reveals the dirt on Gaspard...none of which is especially well-hidden. In fact, it outright says the only reason there isn't a rebellion of nobles is because of the Inquisition...which is largely or completely dissolved by the end of Trespasser. In fairness, a rebellion of nobles doesn't necessarily mean the end of Briala's rule. She's handled worse.

In any case, none of the endings are stable. Every possible ending makes very clear that things could easily fall apart. So it's strange that so people emphasize stability as their main or even sole criterion for deciding. That's...not on the table!

Approval

There's definitely a solid case that Briala can rule with Celene at least as well as she can with Gaspard. But I want to consult the egg. Solas has the well-being of the elves at the front of his mind, along with boodles of spies to report on how elves are doing. If he likes it, it's fair to say it's pretty good for elves. What does he approve of?

Solas Approves of Briala and Gaspard, Briala and Celene, and the public truce. So...he likes Briala being alive, but doesn't care if she's in power? But he doesn't disapprove if Gaspard rules alone, killing Briala? I don't know what to make of that.

Sera's approval is even more confusing. She greatly disapproves of letting the assassination happen - consistent so far - but slightly approves of Gaspard alone and slightly disapproves of Briala ruling. Why does she like Gaspard, a nobleman who butchers city elves, better than Briala, the most common of the three? I don't know.

All in all, looking into approval has been more confusing than helpful. It doesn't narrow down much of anything, although Solas' reactions are at least consistent with Briala+Gaspard being just as good for the elves as Briala+Celene.

Sigh...the war table

I do not like the war table. It's a cool idea that keeps disappointing me by presenting me with earth-shaking political changes that do absolutely nothing outside of the war table itself. But, if you're desperate for finding the Objective Best Ending, it's one more source of evidence.

Briala+Gaspard gives you A Whisper From Behind The Throne. Briala learns that there's...Venatori. In the marshes. They're...there. You can make them not there. Nobody thanks you or Briala, because they weren't much of a threat and frankly you can't sneeze without getting snot on Venatori somewhere. You get a little toy mask for your trouble, worth all of seventy coins. Don't spend it all on candy.

If she's with Celene, however, she finds out something a little more useful - a Venatori plot to assassinate a Nevarran nobleman! He was on the way to meet the king, so he must have been pretty hot stuff. You save him, and Nevarra is indebted to the Inquisition. Like most Grateful Nobles, he expresses his gratitude with a paltry...Amulet of Power? Noice. This feels like a bribe from the devs to go with this route. More in-universe, it looks like working with Celene gives Briala the best opportunities for espionage (since she has all of Celene's agents working with her, and she doesn't have to babysit Gaspard).

Hey devs! Can you tell me the right answer pretty please?

Lastly, in a moment of desperation, I asked Weekes via tweet about the ambiguities in the epilogue - does the lack of explicit mention of elf rights mean they don't improve? Or is that part of "resplendent?" I haven't heard back yet, but if and when I do, I'm sure we can finally settle this dispute once and for all. I'm messing with you, we'll keep bickering about everything.

And, really, isn't that what being a Dragon Age fan is all about?

(If you have read this far, I congratulate your patience, and invite your own opinions in the notes!)

[grandenchanterfiona]

How would the events of Origin change in Ascension canon? I haven't read the comics so I don't know what exactly happened to Maric, but would he still be alive/around at the beginning of the Blight? If so, Loghain wouldn't betray him, right? What about Alistair, would he have been corrupted by snooping around in a forest, like the warden in the dalish elf origin, cause otherwise I can't think of a reason why he would join the wardens so young and I cant see Fiona or Maric allowing him to do so.

Under a cut because spoilers:

In TST, Maric made a promise to Flemeth that he’d do something for her. We don’t, in the books, find out what that is, but in the comics it’s revealed to be like, awakening dragons or some shit with his magic blood.

Flemeth, sometime around like, two years before the fifth blight, is going to show up at the palace, remind Maric of his promise, because he was supposed to go do the thing a few years before, like he did in canon, but he didn’t want to cuz he didn’t want to leave his sons and his wife. 

Fiona begs him to stay, because, since she still gets Warden nightmares, she’s sure the blight is going to come soon, and doesn’t want Cailan or Ali to have to be the ones to make decisions about it, and she knows Flemeth foretold that Maric would die before the blight. 

Maric goes anyway and keeps his promise. Everything goes pretty much fine, except he has to stop in Kirkwall to resupply and ends up staying in the home of a Fereldan family in Kirkwall’s Hightown. We found out from DA2 that at least some of the houses in Hightown get their water from sources contaminated by wastewater, as Gamlen says his parents twice had cholera. 

Someone on Maric’s ship’s crew will get sick with cholera in Kirkwall, and slowly everyone will get sick, including, eventually, right before the ship reaches shore, Maric. He’s strong enough to survive it for a few days, especially with Fiona’s healing once he reaches Denerim, but he, eventually dies. 

The Grand Cleric of Ferelden will annul Fiona and Maric’s marriage before Maric’s body is even cold, and force her back in the circle, but this time, one in Orlais. There’s going to be a bunch of powerful stuff here, but like, this is the bare bones of what you need to know.

Basically everyone and their mom in Thedas, even those who don’t like Fiona, are going to fight to get Fiona returned to Cailan and Ali because Celene is doing it because Briala pushed Celene to.write to the Divine asking to free Fiona.

Shortly after Fiona returns, Cailan is going to express fears to her about being King. He’s going to point out to her that one of his mother’s cousins died seemingly of the same disease as his mother, and that he could easily also have it, {though he doesn’t and knows he probably doesn’t as he’s the same age she was when she started showing symptoms and has shown none}. He also tells her he’s gay and that he and Anora agreed that they wouldn’t sleep together and points out it’d probably be better for him to abdicate and join the Wardens, and Ali to marry Anora, if Anora wants to marry him, and become King. 

Fiona points out that if that happens everyone will assume she used her magic to make Cailan abdicate and put Alistair, her biological son, on the throne, and that they’d likely kill her. Cailan, out of love for her, stays king. 

The fifth blight comes. Cailan and Loghain ride for Ostagar. Anora, Alistair, and Fiona stay put. 

The Couslands offer Howe and his men a home for the night, and like in canon, all but Fergus, who already left for Ostagar, and the Cousland’s second child, River Dane, are killed. River rides with Duncan to Ostagar to join the Wardens. 

Howe rides to Denerim. No one from Highever has yet told Fiona or Ali or Anora about the attack on the Couslands. They too, offer him and his men safeharbor on their way to Ostagar. In the night, they too are attacked. Fiona, Alistair, Anora, and as many servants as Fiona can help, escape the castle through the secret exit by the Royal bedrooms. Anora, at Fiona’s advice, races to the home of Alfstanna Eremon. Fiona and Alistair race to the alienage.

They reach Adaia’s house. Adaia calls for Slim Couldry. She takes Fiona’s cloak and dress, and Fiona takes her’s. The same for Slim and Ali. She tells Da’assan to help Fiona and Alistair escape the city and reach Ostagar. Before she leaves, her and Fiona kiss, and tell each other to be safe, and that they’ll see each other again.

At Ostagar, the smallness of the Wardens’ numbers becomes obvious, and, without telling Loghain, Cailan undergoes the Joining, figuring that, with Fiona in Denerim, she cannot be blamed, and that his country needs him.

River is sent to light the signal fire by Duncan. Cailan is sent with her. 

Duncan survives the battle and retreats when Loghain does. None of his men make it, except Cailan and River, who escape the tower, saved by Flemeth as Ali and the Warden are. The three, plus Morrigan, sent by Flemeth with Cailan and River, meet up in Lothering. The news of the attack on the palace has not yet reached this far south.

Howe and Eamon’s son Thomas meet in Redcliffe Thomas tells Eamon of his father’s plan, and how he’s working with Gaspard. How Gaspard wants Ferelden, and will let Howe rule it as the king, if it claims to be part of Orlais. Eamon pretends to be overjoyed by this news, and seems to embrace Howe as king. He, in fact, hugs Thomas at this news. While they hug, he reaches for the knife at his belt, and stabs the boy hard in the spine, then, lowering him onto the floor, cuts his throat, and rides to Denerim to warn them of attack. Somewhere along the way, some of Howe’s men end up in the same tavern as him and poison him, though do not kill him. 

Cailan, River, Dog, Duncan, Morrigan, Sten, and Leliana, head for the Circle. There, they finally meet up with Fiona, Daya, and Alistair. Ali and Cailan are overjoyed to see each other, as are River and Daya who had multiple /things/ with each other over the years. Fiona is also overjoyed to see Cailan and Duncan, until she finds out Duncan made Cailan a Warden, and storms off angrily from the camp for the night. 

Things go basically the same as in game for Cailan and Ali’s crew in terms of what they’re doing, but they’re severely worse for Loghain, who thinks the entire royal family, including his daughter, is dead. 

Howe convinces Loghain that one, the Couslands and Eamon were part of the plot to kill everyone, and two, he killed them in revenge. He puppets Loghain into moving troops places that make them vulnerable to attack by Gaspard’s troops, and everything is just Terrible. 

There’s no selling elves into slavery though, as Adaia is still alive and also the elves are now allowed to be armed? That was part of Maric and Fiona’s ketubah?

Eventually Loghain finds out the truth and kills Howe. A landsmeet is held, with some people backing Cailan still being King despite him being a Warden, some people backing Anora as Queen, because she was married to him and isn’t a Warden, and Fiona, Ali, Cailan, Anora, and Loghain backing Ali. Fiona offers to let Anora divorce Cailan and marry Ali, but Anora’s like ‘no, I’ve had enough of being in a loveless marriage with a Theirin man, thanks, I’d rather like, be Dowager queen and marry Nathaniel Howe, since he never sided with his dad and we kinda had a thing’.

Ali is eventually named King, with the chantry requiring Fiona, who they consider to have been an apostate the moment Cailan joined the Wardens, to return to Orlais and be imprisoned for the rest of her life, never speaking to him again.

Fiona agrees, and says she’ll turn herself in after the blight is over.

They fight the Archdemon. Fiona offers to strike the killing blow to keep from having to be imprisoned for the rest of her life. Duncan almost agrees, but they both worry that, since she’s partly cured, it won’t work. He ends up doing it instead.

After his funeral, Fiona keeps her word and returns to the Chantry to turn herself in. This is where the second book ends. There’s a third one that takes place roughly from the time of DA2′s second act, to DAI.