#i have a lot of thoughts and feelings about dylan and irv too but not as many questions...at this juncture at least lol

[sparrow-in-the-field]

I think my thoughts on severance s2 ep3 are best summed up by the questions it left me. Here are my main ones:

Why are so many people working in the mammalian nurture department? It doesn't take that many people to care for goats, at least not all at the same time. Makes me wonder based on the name if there are other mammals they're taking care of...

Why does it seem like every department knows/has rumors about MDR but MDR knew about hardly anyone else on the severed floor?? I guess they knew O&D, but they first thought it was only 2 people, and then they definitely had never heard of the goat department before. I was surprised the people there also knew the pouch rumor (I'm afraid it was just for The Bit but I'm hoping there's a different reason?? Idk what though)

I wonder what Cobel was thinking when she ditched Helena. Specifically, if it was a "she realized she wasn't gonna get what she wanted so she said screw it as a power move" or more of a "she recognized she was about to step into a trap and got out of there before they were going to hurt her" type of deal. I could honestly see it being either but my natural inclination is towards the second one (like Lumon has every reason to want to eliminate her if she's not going to comply...)

Okay not as specifically about ep 3 but the thing I'm really hung up on with Cold Harbor is how long has Mark been working on it?? He's been there for 2 years, has it been the whole time?? Or I guess they had to make sure he was trained first?? MDR existed before Mark got there so surely they are doing other work and Cold Harbor is just one important thing, but sometimes people talk as if it's the only thing MDR is doing and that just doesn't make sense to me.

[thelivingautomaton]

MANNNNNNNNN ok. not to get my SEVERANCE brainworms all over the place but i literally cannot stop thinking about this show. also i keep reading theories on reddit and some of them are really good and some are unbelievably stupid/media-illiterate. so i am dumping my wild predictions/theorizing/thoughts on season 2 here. Please Enjoy Every Bullet Point Equally(TM)

OKAY let's get the big one out of the way: it seems pretty apparent now that cold harbor (and maybe all of the datasets mdr is given to "refine") is binning memories/experiences/brainwaves into severance chips, likely in order to reformat or rebuild someone's personality from the ground up.

this reddit post sums a lot of the evidence up but tl;dr you see an electron microscopy image of neural axons, as well as an etCO2 statistic, which is typically used to monitor respiration of someone who's in a coma or on ventilation

MOREOVER, the four aspects of mdr's data line up with kier eagan's four tempers (woe, frolic, dread, malice -- i've also seen it pointed out that this aligns with the four mdr workers, and in the original pilot script there's a reference to "needing" four workers, but iirc they all work on separate files??), and apparently one of his Whole Things(TM) was the idea that you can neatly sort a person's entire personality into those four boxes

the numbers provoke an emotional response in the refiner based on their interpretation of the data, which we can surmise is likely neural/electrical signals of some kind, specifically from brains that have been frozen or cryogenically preserved and are slowly being thawed. hence all the stress over "finishing" files on time, before they "expire" (i.e. brain thaws too much)

the opening credits for season 2 places a HUGE emphasis on big swollen misshapen heads, on brains, and also on ice...including a blink-and-you-miss-it glimpse of a crashed car sinking into the ice, which takes us into our next big point:

gemma obviously didn't die in the car crash BUT!!! lumon taking her and (presumably) replacing her body with a double (mark says he identified her but that she was also "burned" so that's obviously questionable) was actually something of a random fluke. for whatever reason the circumstances of her death made it so that she was ideal to use as a guinea pig for "part-time employment"

again, kind of going off the s2 opening credits here and the image of the car sinking into the ice -- obvs mark visited the tree where she crashed, but i feel like i remember he had to drive on a bridge overlooking a body of water to get there? maybe gemma and the car both fell in and were frozen (since everything in SEVERANCE apparently happens in the wintertime, lol)

i mean, it wouldn't surprise me if we learn that the car accident was "arranged" by lumon??? (either purely to harvest bodies or potentially if gemma turns out to have been involved in anti-eagan stuff on the DL) but idk, i don't love the idea cos i don't like it when shows try to tie LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE THING together into the big overarching mystery, y'know? like, some things are really just down to dumb luck and chance

i also don't think miss casey herself is a clone of gemma, so either her body was WAY less fucked up by the car crash physically than we might otherwise think, or lumon has some top-secret super-healing tech on the testing floor. maybe both!

ANYWAY, remember "allentown"? mark s's first-day fluke, where he completed a file in one day? that was him refining gemma into miss casey the first time around. YADDA YADDA LOVE TRANSCENDS SEVERANCE he literally put the splintered icy fragments of his dead wife back together again because she LIVES IN HIS VEINS guys. and now he's doing it AGAIN with cold harbor. this is why lumon was so desperate to keep him around even while they fired irving and dylan at the drop of a hat: they know he can get the job done, ESPECIALLY when it comes to working on gemma/miss casey. (see also: mark w commenting about how his team from the branch that shut down never made quota)

i've seen the idea tossed around that all the refiners are assigned to someone who was emotionally close to their outie (e.g. irving's deceased father) but i really don't think that's the case -- like, dylan says mark's freshman fluke let lumon devise new techniques for refining to cut down on the time it takes to finish a file, and istg i can see it perfectly in my head: cobel asking mark s how the FUCK he managed to do that and him just being like "i don't know, the numbers looked...scary??????" and her just. rolling with it.

(also i feel like that's why dylan's generally a good refiner -- he can read people! his outie knew what to say and how to act to impress the door factory guy in s2e2!)

so lumon really really needs cold harbor to work. if it's not because they care about gemma SPECIFICALLY for some secret reason, it must be that they care about the technique. lumon (i.e. the board and/or the eagan family), like so many corporate overlords before them, are selling immortality.

i'm on the fence about whether they're trying to resurrect/immortalize kier eagan specifically -- like it would make the most thematic sense, and they have a ton of material FROM his life certainly to work with, but he's supposed to have died in 1939 and cryonics tech just wasn't advanced enough at the time. but also the world of SEVERANCE is pretty distinct from our own so i guess it's plausible

i feel much more confident in saying they're trying to get the technique working specifically for the sake of current ceo jame eagan, who is an old decrepit fart. imo the "revolving" he mentions to helly in the s1 finale is key to this -- like, it kind of sounds like eagan-speak for rotating through/swapping into a new body???

this MIGHT be where the idea of cloning becomes involved, which i can see supported by the emphasis in the s2 opening credits on babies (including baby kier at the end ofc), but i also just had the even more fucked up thought that what if the end goal is to upload the eagans' personalities (and those of their chosen cronies) into the bodies of severed workers. hence the continued necessity for a severed working underclass as well as their ruling higher-ups -- it's a body farm, an endless cycle of severed workers toiling away to let the rich live on and then having their bodies/minds/souls co-opted when they've lost their other utility. oh my god helly was right THEY LITERALLY ARE LIVESTOCK

guys holy shit what if the season ends with jame (or KIER) eagan's personality getting uploaded into miss casey's chip and overwriting miss casey (and also gemma?? idk i feel like mark scout/mark s are both going to have to come to terms with the idea that gemma as she was is capital-g Gone, even if her body and brain are still sort of alive). and then season 3 has dichen lachman chewing the scenery as creepy old man eagan. I THINK IT WOULD BE FUN AND ALSO FUCKED UP

okay so what about cobel, right? like, obviously she's been drinking the eagan kool-aid, she is All In on immortalizing kier (or jame or whoever). but there's more to it than that!!! she's the one harping on about reintegration being real and possible, AND she's desperate seeking for any signs of it during mark s and miss casey's wellness sessions. why? cobel wants to revive her mother charlotte (we see her medical tag on cobel's eagan shrine), but she wants HER MOTHER, not a blank slate -- in other words she's rooting for the chips to not function properly in order to truly resurrect someone who's been dead

in particular i think this is why she flipped her lid on mark at the end of s2e2 when he asked what she knew about gemma -- like, idk maybe it's confirmation bias at play but to me her primal scream felt like it was coming from a place of...jealousy? like, "how DARE you ask me that, how are YOU the one who's allowed to get your loved one back and I'M being promoted up the ladder so lumon can get me out of the way even though MY motivations are pure". that kind of thing

cobel's attitude towards lumon and helena in s2e2 is SUUUUUUPER ambiguous -- i think she's going to turn from outright enemy into kind of a weird "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing this season?? especially since i got the feeling that she really did kind of care about mark and devon in her own supremely weird, fucked-up way

oh god you guys. what if her "mrs selvig" persona was cobel imitating her own mother, mid-atlantic accent and corny outdated references to clark gable and all. FUCK

also the fact that she's looking for miss casey and mark s to remember each other implies that reintegration is possible even without outside interference with the chip itself (i.e. however reghabi reintegrated petey). and you know what?

i think she's right.

THE BIG BOY THEORY: MARK SCOUT AND MARK S WILL START TO SPONTANEOUSLY REINTEGRATE THIS SEASON

i will live and die on this hill, ben stiller i swear to FUCK

what's the overriding symbolism in the season 1 opening credits?? the line between innie and outie is porous (or "mushy", if you will). black sludge seeping from the trash cans that's made of all your other selves (also reflecting how irving dreams of his outie's black paint). mark's innie and outie selves constantly chasing circles around one another until at the end they both collapse on the bed...and then collapse together as a single person.

what's the overriding symbolism in the season 2 opening credits???? not just "mark scout, i.e. mark in red pajamas, delving into lumon's mysteries", not just "mushy confusion of innie and outie feelings re: helly and miss casey" -- mark's innie and outie selves working together. innie mark pulling outie mark out of the severance chip. innie mark hoisting up the curtain dividing outer and inner worlds to let outie mark through. innie mark CARRYING OUTIE MARK IN HIS ARMS. do you see the fucking vision.

of course that's also coupled with the final image of the credits: mark bursting through and out of his own head. which i think emphasizes that there's going to be conflict as well as cooperation between mark's disparate selves (especially when it comes to everything involving the helly/mark/casey love triangle)

why did mark look like he was having a goddamn seizure when he was coming down the elevator. why did he glimpse a mysterious figure following him in the hallway. WHY THE FUCK WAS HIS VERY FIRST INSTINCT TO BOLT FOR WELLNESS AND LOOK FOR MISS CASEY!!!!! (okay this could also conceivably be due to him yelling to devon that she was alive literally one second ago but still)

i think mark's "spontaneous reintegration" is also more or less an insane fluke, basically a product of the fact that he's now working on gemma/miss casey's refinement data AGAIN and both his innie and outie selves are starting to blur together regarding their shock and turmoil over the realization that gemma is alive (and probably loads of other stuff too while we're at it).

but idk, maybe spontaneous reintegration also occurs naturally over time? irving is also having some bleed-through and iirc he's been at lumon the longest of all of them

shit dude. what if outie burt ALSO has bleed-through and that's why he followed irving and was crying. honestly what the fuck was even the deal with that, i don't know!!!!

anyway i imagine that "spontaneous reintegration" would really put a kibosh in lumon's plans to permanently rewire and wipe the brains of severed folks in order to pave the way for an immortal ruling class. also i thought the way they did petey's hallucinatory flip-flopping between his lives/selves was awesome and i would like more of that, please. (also: i miss petey, y'all)

i think if they do end up going this route it's gonna be spoonfed to us pretty slowly though -- like, s2 will slowly build up the mystery of "what the fuck's going on with mark reintegrating", then s3 is his two selves coming to terms with...All Of That

those are all of my big idea theories but i also have some smaller bullet points to address:

dylan's gonna visit his family in the """visitation suite""" and it 100% is going to be paid lumon actors. and the giveaway is gonna come at the end of the episode when we cut back to outie dylan's life and his wife (or one of his other kids, who knows) is terminally sick (maybe wheelchair- or bed-bound?), hence outie dylan's desperation to find another job post-firing

that is one million percent helena eagan down on the severed floor (although i can see the argument for it being helly r and she's just not comfortable sharing her real experience on the outside). her shady story aside, i think britt lower is CRUSHING IT as "helena pretending to be helly but it's kind of off-putting and fake because it's helena's idea of how helly would behave". like, it's giving me the same vibes as in FRINGE when fauxlivia pretends to be olivia and then seduces/sleeps with peter. real ones know

RICKEN IS NOT A FUCKING SECRET EAGAN!!!!!! DEVON IS NOT SECRETLY IN ON ANYTHING (besides keeping her brother safe)!!!!!! HIS FRIENDS ARE JUST PRETENTIOUS SHITHEELS!!!!!!!!!!!!

as much as i would literally chew glass (positive) for mark s and miss casey to be A Thing, i feel like narratively and thematically it's not gonna work with the show's overarching themes of like, struggling to process grief and selfhood and figuring out what makes you you (or someone else their own independent self). gemma is Gone and you can't bring her back and you can't cut yourself off from the grief and the pain. mark has to reintegrate (literally and metaphorically/emotionally) in order to resolve his issues and move on

this show is so!!!!!! OOOOOUUUUGGGGHHGHGHH

[meret118]

Severance 2.02

Mark joked that Devon's name is Persephone - six months on earth and six months in Hades. Helly even referred to being on the severed floor as hell.

The set design and cinematography are gorgeous! Tons of horizontal and glass cages - the long glass hallway Helena walks down, Milchek moving through hallways and roads on a motorcycle. Lots of rats and lots of mazes. Instead of Mark's "joy" at work affecting him in the outside world as Milchek said, the low ceilings from the severed floor are in the outside world now too. The fish in Mark's aquariumeven looks like Helena in the Lumon office. Great shot of Helena and her reflection in the mirror too.

We saw Irving in the dark, (and later in the glass cage of a phone booth), but not framed the way the others were. Because he knows more? Smart comeback about food poisoning, btw. Who was he talking to in the phonebooth?

Burt! At first I was thrilled seeing Burt there, but now I wonder if outie Irving had his name written down because Burt is actually a bad guy.

I don't remember Helena being this stiff and contained in season one, but this was a difficult time for her.

"What am I supposed to tell my wife?" Sounds like Dylan really did become severed for the money, or at least the health insurance since he asked about it in the interview. I wonder if one of his kids has a health problem. Why does the other guy look like him so much? Interchangeable cogs in the machine? The closing and opening doors in the background are mesmerizing. This is an Easter egg. The show creator wished he didn't have to remember working his office job at a door company, but could just turn off instead.

The season one credits were creepy, but in a more existential dread kind of way IMO. I thought the new credits had a more horror movie vibe.

I still do not understand why Devon is with someone as pretentious as Rickon. Is he rich? Did she marry him for the money? She's the smartest one in the family.

Helena did watch the tapes. That would be so weird to watch yourself doing things you have no knowledge of. Has she ever felt that passionate about anyone before? The image of Helena trapped in a glass box after watching the kiss, staring out into the world, them walking to the exit. (Followed by Mark in a dark room staring into the light.) Did she decide to go back then? Is she Helena instead of Helly? And is it in part because she wanted to meet Mark? I think she was fascinated by what she saw on the screen, but my gut still says it's actually Helly in the office. We'll see.

The unnamed Lumon employee and Natalie both acted very uncomfortable at the mention of 5X.

Why do they need Mark in particular to compete cold harbor? Is he the only one who can recognize Gemma's scary numbers and refine them? Is he removing her memories?

Oh, Mark! Do not mention Gemma to Cobel! Devon is the brains in that family. Except for the marrying rickon part.

They did a great job of keeping a feeling of suspense and impending danger throughout the episode. Having said that though, I do hope they increase the pacing a bit in the future.

[songofsaraneth]

since SEVERENCE SEASON 2 IS FINALLY HEEEERE (and I'm about to watch it). i DID over the last 3 days watch the Season 1re-cut into individual Outie Perspective and Innie Perspectives that @allonsybadwolf made. I took kind of notes/jotted down my thoughts as I went, and I meant to type these up into a more cohesive 'essay' but didn't have time and am too impatient to start s2 now lmao. rip. BUT i thought it'd still be fun to share my thoughts on it all below anyway, thought they're kind of a rough draft and just linear impressions not a full cohesive Theory.

below a readmore cause there's a bunch!

OUTIE CUT

with just the outie perspective so far it's much more ominous as a show. alas i already know everything so i can't be actually surprised, but without the first way more 'whimsical' scenes of the innies it's definitely a darker vibe now. ESPECIALLY the elevator suicide attempt scene--the way it jumps in this cut with no buildup or resolution is sooo creepy. Mark also is so much sadder without the comparatively lighter breaks of his innie self. 

Dylan's scene in the closet however i think hits less hard in this one, without the buildup of knowing who he is at all. that scene is so fast and theres not enough context to get emotionally connected yet. definitely more of a slow build for everyone besides mark due to the innie/outie screentime disparity. 

and DAMN the warehouse murder scene too. mark truly getting dragged through it... his outie is so much less in control of his own life/just letting himself get pulled through thing after thing. i think this comes off more strongly in this cut so hopefully a more fun contrast to his innie who has more self-determination scenes later on.

on the other hand, the Gemma reveal here is way less impactful, as we haven't seen her anywhere else yet. though honestly as someone mostly faceblind, the first time i actually watched severence i also didn't get that scene, when he tapes the photo together. because i just didn't recognize we'd already seen her in the innie scenes lmao. i only got it at the very end of the show in the finale scene.

i do think this is a nice quiet intro for Irv's character. more screen time than Dylan gets and more of a sense of him as a person/outie. the paintings become a mystery, more hints at what's really going on in the lumen basement..... makes it eerie feeling since we haven't seen the hallways yet. the frantic music with the painting gives us a very different impression of his outie first, vs in the normal cut where we are used to his innie being so reserved. and then we get the just a flash of scene of him & the others in the elevator-- 

also not a real comment but kinda fun that Irv's into motorhead and petey is into metallica lmao. metalhead representation.

selvig/cobel's breakdown comes out of NOWEHRE in this cut. she's been only sneaky and conniving so far, and mysterious... the shift to shouting and freaking out and total breakdown is very abrupt, without the context for it. though i like how extra creepy and mysterious her lumen-dude shrine is. actually i think the selvig/mark relationship is the most interesting one in this cut. without her innie perspective, while you know she's got Something More going on because of Petey's flashbacks, you don't know what or that she's conscious of it/lying as much as you do in the normal cut. like her breaking into his house??? insane. but potentially creepy overstepping neighbor insane not creepy boss who is monitoring your brain insane. wish i'd paid more attention up to this point but in this cut, i think the watcher might assume she's severed too? vs a knowing/willing employee who has a lot more info? HMMMM. also the scene where Mark goes to invite her to the party comes across as... way more caring? when you don't know the History. and her hugging him and telling him to get away from Lumen, a few minutes later. which makes it even creepier! it's hard for the audience to forget the innie scenes when you get them all mixed up. 

and man THE ENDING. the abrupt cut off is certainly ominous, though lacks the climactic build and feel when you don't know it's coming. 

i think if it was filmed/released this way intentionally, we'd have a little more Dylan and another scene with helly post-hanging attempt. we've only seen helly as the brief flashes of her face since then. obviously the real reveal is still coming, for the audience and the characters, but a scene without context of her in a hospital or recovering would make sense here and help remind us she's part of the narrative too, even if we don't get life details. 

INNIE CUT

oh i'm seconding what i said about getting at least one more mysterious helen moment in the innie cut because Helly's starting sequence for the Innie cut comes across as so ominous. And hearing Mark's voice makes you wonder--how in on all this is he? We've had way more time to build up attachment to his Outie, and wonder about what he's doing down there.

I like that when the scenes are separated this way, we get a much more tense build up to finally seeing what's actually happening inside Lumen. We get put in Helly's place: what the fuck is happening? but we've had longer to wait for it than in the OG cut. And then the transition to Mark's innie walking the eerie sterile halls to blandly cheerful music, only to arrive at... a cubicle. a WERID cubicle since its the only thing in the middle of the room yet nonetheless just a boring office structure plunked into the otherwise bizarre environment.

I think the Selvig thing is more of a "reveal" in this cut order now. Her personality is so strikingly different you still wonder whether or not she's severed--but i forgottttt to pay enough attention to where that moment would truly become clear that she's not in this version. oops. next time.

Aaaand then we get confirmation Mark seems to be in on nothing after all. He's literally reading (poorly) from a manual for each step--we get to keep cheering for him, phew. And OOF the followup with the Helly interview / video and the more details about Severence itself and convo with Mark is nice. the "Do I have a family?" "You'll never know" moment where his Innie seems resigned but not unhappy. After seeing his sort of chaotic mood swings for so long it makes the innie/outie divide feel more stark. And also begs the question, was he right? Is this version of himself happier for his ignorance? Until of course you see him staring with the Petey photo :( Especially since in this version--we know Petey is dead, or will be. He'll never get that closure himself of saying goodbye and meaning it, since his Outie has already had that. Hmmm very good Reintegration Grief potential for s2 or onward i hope it comes up eventually.

The weird Lumen stuff is so funny to see how... whimsical? it is after all the buildup. I also thought this in the normal cut but obviously the wait is so much longer in this version, it's even funnier.

The Gemma/Casey reveal definitely suffers in this cut however. Or at least it would if you're good at faces and can recognize Casey from the brief photo we saw of Mark's dead wife earlier. 

The "that's Petey" jump in this one... I actually love how that turned out. Also Helly's hanging scene actually... the Innie cut one works almost as well as the normal cut. That whole scene sequence leading up to it stayed pretty intact (i think), and being able to remember back to the outie version with soooo much more character context  for Helly makes it nice. Actually maybe it's changed my mind a little about how abrupt that scene is in the Outie cut, because the contrast of how detached/emotionless it was there vs how intense it is in the Innie cut is pretty cool actually. Its a good parallel to the detachment between the personalities for each character! Yeah I've convinced myself. 

Dylan's closet scene however, still suffers in both cuts. Would need to have more around both of them to really get the impact that the normal cut gives. 

Anyway I do think the Innie cut holds up better as a standalone than the Outie cut. Perhaps partly for reasons of pacing, the full Outie cut is like half the length of the Innie one so you get way less development time.

I actually entirely forgot about the Helly/Mark innie romance thing. Just completely left my brain. Surprise! [and then the last scenes with the party and all were so riveting once more I failed to take any further notes. Whoops! god i am so ready to start s2]]

[akajustmerry]

Merryana! What’d you think of the Severance finale? I’m going insane! I loved it it gave me everything I wanted w Mark & Helly & to an extent Dylan but I feel bad for Irving! Akso I keep hoping we’ll find out why Milchick is so loyal to Luman/more about him in general

hiiiiiii sam 💕 i've really been going insane sam omg i've barely been able to form coherent thought on it but i shall try!

I understand the Irving frustration! but I think his arc has been very brilliant, going from this dedicated worker bee to a rebel over forbidden love. i am curious to see what will happen when he's back on the inside, whether knowing Burt isn't alone same as him on the outside. I think Irving's plotline also says something really powerful about sexuality too, that its inherent and unstrippable from someone's identity.

I am OBSESSED with Milchick and have said from day 1 that he's likely to be the inside man who turns on Lumon. I still think this and I think the finale showed how he's losing faith in severance as something that will work. He's going to be the key to everything imo, but I do wish we knew more about him. But I think the show is saving who he really is for a big reveal like Helly's.

The Helly reveal was absolutely stunning. I really felt like I was watching a perfect symphony come together. It made everything make sense! The question I can't get out of my head now is that, is Helly's innie so angry because she has the trauma of outtie!helly's upbringing with none of the context? One thing Innie!Helly was, unmistakebly, was angry! I think that anger is outtie!helly's and somehow that's how innie!helly and outtie!helly will start to see one another!

I actually can't talk about Mark and Ms Casey without feeling a knot in my heart. The HORROR of that! The heart of innie!mark to use his last possible moment on the outside to let his loved ones know that the woman outtie!mark loved is actually alive! that the whole reason he even exists, aka gemma's death, is a lie. He could have chose not to tell them incase they use that as a reason to terminate him, but he didn't! that's so brave! that's so kind! what people will do for a love they can't remember....i might cry.

overall, I think Severance perfectly used its first season to painstakingly layout exactly what the most important things are in this world. a lot of critiques of the season have been that its slow, but its not! its just took the time to ensure its audience understands the stakes, consequences, power structures and rules of the series. next series, i am sure we will see those rules be bent and broken as the story develops. i cannot wait! best show on TV, easy!

[gayspock]

ok current random thoughts on severance

- first of all tempted to rewatch from the beginning at some point. unsure when, but hm.... maybe before not next ep, but the ep after? i think bingeing- its like i couldnt NOT binge a lil<3 - some things do blur a little, as opposed to weekly releases, and i'd really like to reabsorb some things >:3 - i really like dylan!! SORRY, just want to give him some love- and i hope they do more with him, whilst still maintaining the balance theyve struck with him bc... i think... hm. THIS IS LESS ABT SEVERANCE, HERE! but its moreso an unguided ramble in general abt, like, the functions of certain characters i guess? bc thus far i feel like... you know. dylan serves to add a bit of levity, and to cut some tension; he's a very good balance to the office dynamic, as well as being a very... necessary perspective. not just in terms of contrast to the others, but like his genuine existence as a more complaisant type of character not like irving or even how mark tends to be, but like.... the normal guy who kind of doesnt buy into it, and isnt reverant to the systems, but also isnt kicking up a terrible fuss and sort of doesnt question it in like a . "well its just sorta like that ehhh<3"

or only does so in a nonserious way, conspiratorial stuff that airs more on the side of fun poking at shite, or like. in general he will defy lumon in moreso little ways- so i guess it probably still fancies himself as having some agency (unlike irving, in his opinion) but also does think himself rational (unlike helly, in his opinion) bc by his measure its like fucked, sure, but also whatever- when like at the end of the day he's still very much playing the game even if he's very casual about it all- AND . anyway thats all to say i would like to see MORE of him, in some sense! but also i reocgise that like. hmmm. a lot of this and how he functions is kind of inherent to him NOT being so centre stage, of him not having too much "up" with him and that sense of normalcy being integral to him BUT

equally i guess i started rambling abt it bc gosshh OMG OK<- ANNOYING MOMENT INCOMING. <-A BLOKE IS ABT TO TALK ABOUT D*CTOR WH*..,. <-OH EEK THIS IS A WARNING!! bc like if we're talking the current dw specials yeah? i feel like (at least, i at first) tried to allow for, and to be like "ok!" the addition of dan, to supplement graham and ryan's loss; he would be the new comic relief, the new balancing force in the tardis. and its like sigh. how laughable to even try to compare the ufcking messy clumsiness that is chibnall's writing, to the show above but like........ my point is, in the nye special (since flux is kinda too sloppy to rlly even poke at omg..oops) its like yeahh sure he serves tht purpose and hes a good character in his own right. but ALSO sighhh. he is sort of... still unnecessary im bc its like- there's something so.... functional about it. certainly he's what the show does need- but also there's other ways of serving those purposes, that would have been so much more enriching? LIKE: i LOOK at yaz, yeah? and... is it literally so insane to try and let HER be funny? is that such an absurd thing to propose? bc you can do that! but it wouldnt be with the immediate obvious quips you can have someone like dan fire out. but equally it would have given her more depth, it would have made the show so much cleaner in how it functions, but ultimately it would have been "harder" to do so- and its like, there's something very lifeless abt the current era of companions. and i think thats... sorta it. theyre all kind of put in for very rigid purposes and then thats it and theyre never allowed to be more than that or for even to be meaningful in the context of the story and its like- its SUCH a shame you know its suchhhh a shame

and my point. oh what was my point. that had me thinking a lot in general abt the way characters like dan exist in stuff (THAT sounds. vaguely pretentious i h*te that) and how characters who kkind of cut tension but also arent wholly. necessary-necessary and im LOOKING at dylan . BC HE DEFINITELY IS NOT THAT, MIGHT I SAY! he isnt- at least not right now- bc as i was saying he does strike a nice balance and i think his perspective is meaningful to the show but also... going forward i do think. like i said, i want more from him but i wonder how the show could go on to do that? its a balancing act. bc also- it probably WILL need to do that at some point as the status quo changes, as i presume it will in the show and as its doing so right now and i DO hope... i DO hope that they manage to do well by him, is all im saying! bc i feel like- i feel like it'd be very easy to use him for the sake of function alone, but... it'd be nice, still, to realise him in other aspects <3

- vaguely related but not so deep. im actually not that fully committed to helly yet! and oh that sounds a little impolite... I DO-I DO LIKE HER I think shes also a characrer though where hmmm. god i am obviously drawn to the horrific fucking nightmare shes clearly living in and she really. does make you realise how fucking fucked it all is- but also... hmm. i feel like that a lot of what we have been getting of her, is that immediate horrified response and whilst i can obviously go fucking bananas for her personality (the tenacity she has and everything) she has thus far existed in that extreme- and thats not a bad thing!! just like a. im sitting on the edge of my seat for her... like think she's going to get SO much better as time goes on, is the thing, and as we get more of her outside self. obviously we cant see that yet but it slike... how do i even say it. i feel like i cant quite explain it well? its like im at the beginnig of something rlly fucking good with her, and im seeing the groundwork laid out and im waiting for the drop first. ino idea if my sentinmence are making sense any more its almost 5am here<3

- similarly theres other characters that i KNOW theyre teasing something soooo good with them but also im vibrating bc it hasnt DROPPED yet fullyh- like cobel, casey and milchick- all have like ushc a fascinating things proposed this far and i would ramble more of them but obviously so much of thmem are ambiguous right now and im screaaaming bc like. i do I DO hope that with cobel in particular, that they give her her depth but also hm.... ive said it a lot, you know, about how i dont like it when "bad guys"'s presumed storylines are that theyre either 1 ) redeemed or 2) they were always justified and had sth awful going on tht made them that way (and certainly thats an oversimplification of the matter) but theres a possibility with her that they could try to sympathise with her in some way and i dont WISH for that i dont!! but i DO want some nuance in there and to see whatever the hell her perspective is and how she is a victim to whats going on whilst still being very much at fault for it... THEN with milcheck im squainting at him in general i feel like theres more to him. and with casey casey casey also unsure of her deal thus far, a thing we will surely see later... but i do hope sheis severed and shes another . interesting perspective bc

- hmmm like- i think tthats actually. LIKE MY GRIPES WITH THE SHOW THUS FAR ARENT LIKE. proper proper fair gripes theyre moreso like "i am ANTICIPATING this in the future" kind of situations and i dont think it'd be tooo fair to speak of them all when the showis still in progress. bc like- in general its like... i dont have BIG, HUGE AHHRGH issues with anything anyways? its moreso little things- certain perspectives and takes and worldbuilding matters that i sort of wish would be touched on more, but i cant tell if theyre like 1) leaving it for later OR 2) theyre going to be left ambiguous in general but by the end it wont feel incomplete as we see other takes OR 3) they really just wont at all and HEY i suppose thats the thing when youre following sth ongoing like this, but OMG i know its goofy googoo but theres a trepidation babygirl sniff sniff BC THUS FAR ITS LIKE- i actually love it so far you know, like thats one thing i do like a lot about the show. certainly it isnt perfect by any means, but they ARE committing to their concept. like it feels like it could be so... lukeworm? LUKEWPRM. SORRY I - TYPO EEPING THAT. but i feel like Fafjipsdfpkosd. IT COULD be so lukewarm is what i was intending to say but they are leaning into it. like i feel like a much lesser show would take this concept but not fully commit to the actual... horrific nature of it, and also not the actual implications of it? of like- what the "innies" would be, and how they would be as their own sort of culture? and theres still room for improvement- but like omgg....

- also also also also. i hate the term innies and outties it makes me think of belly buttons and absolutely i think these terms WOULD pop up, theyre the sort of casual things that people would just say but like i HATE using them but jHELP HELP HELP HLEP theres something that gives me the ick that i dont hold against the show bc theyre right but also i hold it against myself ahhrhg

- i like how marks brother in law whose name i cant hold onto... FIRST OF ALL. i keep merging him with the bloke from ointb. obsessed with the weird brother energy he just radiates. but like- GOD .... the way his shitty book with the dodgy platitudes and all sorts..... its actually so. the way its scoffed at by outie mark (or at least, his sentiments are) but revered by innie mark. like its just so... SORRY cant quite articulate it right now but GOD its like such a fucking fascinating shift in perspective as to how sth like that feels so laughable and kinda. shallow?n perhaps not the right word- but its something so different to us but recontextualised its revolutionary like UH HUH........GOD.

- im also so crazy abt burt and irving. like im not shipper brain rotted but god its just so nice to see two older men developing a relationship and its sincere and its not, like, subtextual its like THERE-THERE, and its stated openly like.... :3 <3 its really moving. happy for them... i am, i am, i am. bc its also like- its also not forced, hell! or like just. incidental.

- erhm waht else<3

- i think i had more thoguths i'll leave it hear now tho LOL kiss kiss

[bomberlandia]

Part I: Ranking Every Bomber Since 2015

Welcome to Bomberlandia’s first ever look at every Essendon player that pulled on a jumper since 2015, featuring historian and lifelong Bombers diehard Dr. Dan Eddy. As far as I can tell, there’s never been an undertaking where someone has ranked every Essendon player for a period of time. In 2002 Simon Matthews wrote a book and ranked the 60 greatest Bombers players of all-time. I’m sure there have been other variations of that. But those books don’t include every player for a period of time. And some of those books need to be revised or revisited.

This is what got me curious about looking at the last five years of Essendon players and who sits where and who has made an impact. Also, apart from being something to read during the postseason I think these rankings will help explain Essendon’s story from 2015 until now by taking stock of who’s come and gone, who’s been able to stay the journey and which players failed to deliver.

I could never do these kind of rankings on my own. It’s an unreasonable task. For this I enlisted the help of prolific book writer Dan Eddy, someone who has analyzed Essendon through an historic lens and someone who really knows his AFL stuff.

The hope with this first initial crack is that it becomes an annual postseason tradition, where rookies and current players can improve their ranking or if things don’t work out, they can potentially fall. These rankings come at a time where the Bombers haven’t had a lot of success. But there’s a lot of players that have had opportunities to prove themselves since 2015. We’re now starting to see some of the kids step up like Andrew McGrath, Jordan Ridley, Kyle Langford, Darcy Parish, Sam Draper, Brandon Zerk-Thatcher, Irving Mosquito. These developments have been intriguing to observe.

Quite often with rankings they can get bogged down in statistics, and sometimes that’s the only way to separate one player from the next, but numbers sometimes don’t tell the whole story of what a player means to a football team. What we’re looking for are things like longevity and service to the team, elite skills, and sure, accolades. But we’re coating all of that with gut feels. And to be frank, this list is not perfect or definitive but it’s a start and most of all it will be fun to digest. We acknowledge there’s certainly some players too high and too low but we’re ok with that.

Here’s Part I of Ranking Every Essendon Player Since 2015.

Players ranked from 85 to 39

85. Nathan Grima 84. Tom Jok 83. Jonathan Giles 82. Jonathan Simpkin

JR: This quartet feels like the right way to kick off this list at the back end. Giles, Simpkin and Grima were top-ups for the 2016 season. Jok is the most interesting “what could have been” talent. Bombers picked him with their first pick in 2018 and called him an “exciting and raw prospect.” He played one game and was then delisted. What happened to Jok? I wish I had an answer.

DE: I realise Grima was taken at a time when we were desperate for players, but we should never have picked him up. Ranks with our worst ever selections, in my view.

81. Ned Cahill 80. Mitch Hibberd

JR: It’s early days for Ned but he shows promise. He could evolve and become a household name. Mitch Hibberd, with limited opportunity, looks more at home as a solid VFL contributor (saying that based on very small looks).  

DE: I agree on both fronts. Wait and see with Ned. As for Mitch, nothing wrong with his size but not sure he will be capable of holding down a senior spot over the long-term.

79. Sam Michael 78. Alex Browne 77. Tom Cutler 76. Sam Grimley 75. James Polkinghorne 74. Andrew Phillips 73. James Gwilt

JR: Browne was one of the banned supplement saga players who only managed 11 games in five years and was entering his prime in 2015. Browne injured his ACL in the 2014 pre-season and never fully got back into the mix. Probably had the most promise and potential in this section of players.

DE: I had high hopes for Cutler when we recruited him from Brisbane, as I felt his size could be of advantage to our list. But his first season was a disappointment. Hopefully in year two he can have more impact. Gwilt was another, like Grima, who we should never have recruited.

72. Jake Long 71. Kobe Mutch 70. Brandon Zerk-Thatcher

JR: Long and Mutch failed to take the next step but BZT had a season of growth and should progress to be a Top 40 player.  

DE: Tough gig for Jake Long, trying to emerge from his famous father Michael’s long shadow (pun intended). I’m glad he got to wear red and black, though, even if his time at the club was brief. If BZT keeps improving his fitness and builds on his strength, will be interesting to see how far he can go.

69. Jason Ashby 68. Ariel Steinberg 67. Elliott Kavanagh 66. Josh Begley 65. Mark Jamar 64. Brayden Ham 63. Nick O’Brien 62. Ben McNeice 61. Craig Bird 60. Tayte Pears

JR: I really thought Josh “Fridge” Begley was going to be something at Essendon. I watched a pre-season game against the Suns in his rookie year and he was clobbering blokes, laying tackles and kicking goals. He kicked the sealer against the Crows during a comeback win at Etihad in Round One that same year. His departure was perhaps more about list balance or not developing as quickly as the Bombers hoped. Tayte Pears was a very solid player. Unfortunately he was decimated by injuries which prevented his development. He could never get to that next level he needed to be at to cement his spot in the team. Ultimately his ailments curbed his progression

DE: Lots of players here who had impacts, but unfortunately were unable to sustain levels of consistency. I liked Pears, so was disappointed that injury cruelled him as he was entering his prime. Wasn't quick, but gave his all. I agree with your summation of Begley. When I first saw him, I was super excited about the possibilities. But, for whatever reason, didn't come on as hoped.

59. Mathew Stokes 58. Shaun Edwards 57. Nick Kommer 56. Irving Mosquito 55. Matt Leunberger 54. Will Hams 53. Jacob Townsend 52. Ryan Crowley 51. Jackson Merrett 50. Michael Hartley

JR: Like Chapman, the Cats got the best out of Mathew Stokes. In 2016 he came in as a top-up player for a “one-time only” season. He kicked 6.5 which was better than his previous year at Geelong. If we’re nickel and dime’ing here, Townsend’s 9.5 in his first year with Essendon nets him a higher ranking. I can see his position improve with a retooled forward line that will include a fit Stringer, Stewart and Peter Wright.

DE: Wasn’t a Crowley fan before he came to Essendon as one of those famous ‘top-up’ players. But have great admiration for him for what he did for our club during its time of need. Same with Stokes. Townsend has been disappointing in terms of his output, but too much was probably expected of him in our ineffective, underperforming forward line this year. Mozzie promises plenty, so hopefully he keeps improving year on year.

49. Dylan Clarke 48. Josh Green 47. Jayden Laverde   46. Will Snelling

JR: A former Essendon coach once told me that Laverde should be a lot better than he is but the Bombers haven’t done enough to develop him. This makes me curious then: what’s Laverde’s ceiling? Of all the Bombers’ peripheral players, Laverde stands out with his contested work. Inconsistent? Sure. And he’s not a no.1 key forward. But there’s something there. I think he has more to offer than McKernan. He could be a Mihocek. 

DE: Great to see Snelling receive another contract, as he was one of few shining lights during the car crash that was the 2020 season. Laverde has plenty of potential, just needs to become more consistent. That we haven't had a stable forward structure for some time probably hasn't helped him, but I see good upside if we keep a full list on the park.

45. Matt Dea 44. James Stewart 43. Aaron Francis 42. Matt Guelfi 41. Paul Chapman 40. Jason Winderlich

JR: Chapman was thrown a life-line and bagged 30 goals in two seasons. That’s pretty special. It’s not Michael Long’s run down the wing and goal in the ‘93 Grand Final special, but that’s a solid output from a then 34-year old when the club needed it. Winderlich was plagued by constant injuries – back, ACL, and more back troubles. His leg speed was phenomenal when fit.

DE: Thought Dea was terrific for us, and Chappy provided important leadership during dark times. Francis has such potential, but lacks consistency and impact. Wish Stewart got more of the ball, as that would help us up forward where we desperately need a couple of dominant key pillars. 

39. Jake Carlisle

JR: So, we end Part I of this journey with an anti-climatic Jake Carlisle. A guy who could take contested marks with ease, yet, could make you loathe him in an instant with his off-field “theatrics” My final memory of Carlisle was when he shouted “this club is f – ‘ed” in a match against the Giants in 2015 and that’s not a good memory to have of any player. I’m glad he no longer plays for the Bombers. 

DE: Carlisle could have been an all-time great defender at Essendon, but his final season was a major let-down and I was really disappointed in how he departed. In the end, I was glad to see him go. Like you JR, I lost total respect for him after that comment, and wasn't surprised with what happened a few weeks later at St Kilda.

________________________________________

Historian Dr Dan Eddy is the author of 12 books, including “King Richard” and “Always Striving.” A life-long Bomber supporter, you can follow him on Twitter @DanEddyBooks35 and read his sports books at www.daneddybooks.com.