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artificialqueens · 7 years ago

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for all the honest world to feel (trixya) (5/8) - dare

Brian stared down at his screen, trying to understand what he was seeing – the mild frown on Katya’s face, and the other queen, hands raised, standing just out of frame beyond the gap in the bus bunk curtain.

(AN: so this is… long and sad. finally-throwing-in-an-angst-tag-at-the-bottom levels of sad. warnings for unsafe alcohol use and overdrinking; as usual, “she/her” for adore and “he/him” for trixie (brian) and katya. also, this might read a little weird, but i made the executive decision not to name the weho queen who’s been giving trixie shit because (contrary to, uh, all other signs, i guess) i don’t actually want to speculate on who’s a douche and who isn’t in the ru girl community. so that’s also a thing.

(OH, and, there’s more lyrics in this one, please don’t judge me, it’s very hard to try to measure up to trixie’s irl songwriting chops lmao)

this week on honest world: shit’s sad. shit’s real sad.)

| ch. 1 | ch. 2 | ch. 3 | ch. 4 |

FROM: SHEA - 9:57 AM - Sunday August 24th, 2017

[Attachment: IMG_3782.MOV]

Girl.

If you dont wife her up I will.

FROM: KIM - 10:03 AM - Sunday August 24th, 2017

holy shit

i don’t think i’ve ever seen her mad. like for real

FROM: SHEA - 10:04 AM - Sunday August 24th, 2017

This was some WWF shit girl. That bitch will be feeling it for a while.

FROM: KIM - 10:05 AM - Sunday August 24th, 2017

katya’s from boston. she’s 90% salt, 5% feelings, 5% inner saboteur and 100% ready to fight

FROM: SHEA - 10:05 AM - Sunday August 24th, 2017

Thats a lot of math, Kimberley

FROM: KIM - 10:05 AM - Sunday August 24th, 2017

are you being racist? don’t be racist shea. omg.

someone had to count trixie’s tips for her when she was passed out drunk in my bed

FROM: SHEA - 10:07 AM - Sunday August 24th, 2017

*Steal trixie’s tips from her.

FROM: SHEA - 10:15 AM - Sunday August 24th, 2017

Trisha baby if you’re out there we love you girl okay? call us any time xxxx

“You know,” Katya was saying, perfectly conversational, “I found it kind of cute at first? Like a puppy trying to fight itself in the mirror – or one that can’t, you know. Stop pissing itself. You know what I mean? Funny but sad. But I don’t think I find it funny anymore.”

The other queen laughed nervously. “Come on, Katya –”

“I’m not laughing. Why are you laughing?” said Katya, raising his eyebrows. “I’m not laughing.”

The laughter stuttered into silence. Over the mic, Brian heard Shea expel a slow, cautious breath.

Katya tilted his head, and the expression on his face darkened like a spring storm. “I want to make it really clear to you how far you’ve managed to over-reach yourself, that you’ve actually crossed my limits. ‘Cause I don’t care how you run things in your club, how you treat your friends, whatever – that’s none of my business, since I don’t work in your club and I’m not your friend. Oh, in case you hadn’t noticed – I’m not your friend. FYI. Because you’ve been acting like I am, and I think it’s time for that to stop.”

The raised hands dropped out of sight. “Jesus. Why don’t you tell me how you really feel.”

And that – Brian winced despite himself. That was a mistake.

Katya grinned, showing too many teeth. “Can I? I’d like that, thanks.” He tapped his fingers rapidly against the side of his thigh. “I feel like you’ve gotten a little too comfortable as top dog in your scene, and when Trixie showed up and didn’t line up to eat you out like everyone else does, your ego plummeted out of your ass. And what we’ve been seeing for the past half a year – can I repeat that? It’s been half a year, which is beyond pathetic – what we’ve been seeing is some kind of hemorrhoidal psychosis, as you take obsessive potshots at someone who couldn’t give less of a fuck about you. It’s not just pathetic – it’s harassment. You’re showing your whole ass right now but guess what, girl? We’ve seen it.”

“You said yourself you’re not in my scene, so don’t talk like you know shit,” the queen snapped back. Her voice tightened like a screw being ground into drywall. “The bitch could have tried to be friendly, for fuck’s sake –”

“You aren’t being very smart right now,” Katya interrupted, with all the force of a tire iron punching through a sheet of glass. “This might be a good time to consider your word choice, if there ever was one. That would be the smart thing here.” Teeth again, manic. “You want friendly? I can do friendly. We have another week on tour – you want me to do friendly. Because the alternative is that I freeze you out, publicly and professionally, and I make your life and your career outside of that fucked up, incestuous bubble of a scene you’ve pissed all over very difficult. Am I – am I being clear? I want to be very clear. You’ve messed up enough shit in my life, and I want this over with.”

There was a pause and a shift in the shadows beyond the curtain – nodding.

“Good. So here’s how this is going to go.” A wooden sound, rap, Katya’s knuckles against the bunk frame. Brian could make out the rise and fall of Katya’s chest, shallow and too fast, in the gap between the curtains. “You don’t post about Trixie. You don’t talk about her. If, God forbid, the opportunity arises, you don’t talk to her. That last one is for you – I’m a lover, not a fighter, but it is my strong suspicion that if you pull this to her face one more time, she will beat the ever-loving shit out of you. Just a – a pro-tip, let’s call it. An insight.”

There was a weak laugh. “She can try it. Jesus, Katya, come the fuck on –”

Slam – an open-handed palm against the wood. “Do you think I’m fucking around here? I’m not. Don’t fucking push me on this.”

Brian had heard Katya angry a handful of times in his life. He’d never heard him like this. This wasn’t Katya out of control; this was Katya very near the end of his rope, and aware of every inch he had left, making them count.

The sick feeling in Brian’s stomach crept higher. He pressed his knuckles against his mouth.

“You stop coming for Trixie,” Katya was saying. “No more posts on facebook, no more whispers at shows. No more shit-talking to promoters – yeah, I asked around, I heard about that. Not that it did you much good. It has to hurt, I think – does it? Knowing that Trixie’s booking is worth more than your word? That’s gotta sting. But I’m not sure how much of a hold your word even has anymore, you bitter fucking cunt.”

Shea, behind the camera, drew in a shocked breath at the pure vitriol in Katya’s voice.

There was a stillness to the air for a long moment, like the silence after a hurricane has swept the earth bare and ragged. Then the other queen laughed again; louder this time, acidic, but with a definite note of finality – of defeat.

“If everyone could see you now,” she said.

Katya barked a laugh of his own. “Girl, they wouldn’t care. I’m America’s fucking sweetheart.” He stepped back and waved a hand in the space visible between the curtains; it was shaking finely, Brian could see it. “Get the fuck out of here. I’m not dealing with you today. Call back tomorrow – I’ll be friendly again.”

The curtains fluttered as hurried footsteps passed by and receded out of the room, the door to the common lounge sliding open and then shut.

Katya’s shadow shifted. Back and forth, like he was caught up on a decision; then he said, quiet, muffled: “fuck.” Footsteps rang in the opposite direction – towards, Brian assumed, his own bunk, as there was the fumbling sound of feet on rungs and then the rattle of metal rings as the curtains were pulled shut.

The camera reversed. Shea stared up at it, her eyes filling most of the screen, hilariously wide and scandalized. Then the video went black – and flicked back to that first still, frozen, the anger on Katya’s face deepening the hollows of his cheeks, his eyes throwing sparks through the screen.

Brian stared down at the rictus of his face, then pressed the phone down screen-first beside him into his mattress. The hard lines of its body bit into the insides of his fingers.

Fuck. What the fuck.

He could stop the video, but he couldn’t make his brain put away the tired lines that had cut into Katya’s face, or the ragged edge of his voice, or how the sound of his palm hitting solid wood had rung through Shea’s bunk, bouncing thickly off the walls.

The room was too small. Brian dragged himself up and went out into the living room, phone in his fist tucked into his pocket, but out there it was too big, and his skin felt all wrong, and he wanted to call Katya but he couldn’t make himself do it.

Katya hadn’t called or texted since the night of the pageant, when Brian had waited and waited all night but the internet – and that fan in the bar who’d clocked him – had stayed miraculously silent. Katya hadn’t called, or texted, or tweeted, or even updated his fucking instagram.

God.

Brian’s phone buzzed suddenly in his pocket and he almost threw it at the balcony doors in his haste to get it out. He fumbled it awake – and then he saw the name on the screen, and his shoulders slumped again.

FROM: ADORE - 10:28 AM - Sunday August 24th, 2017

I forgot to ask but can u water my plants??? this is the longest ive gone without killing any of them :(

LA sucks.

it’s like *jaws theme* all the time. and i forgot my sunglasses

He swiped his phone unlocked and read through the texts, mouth twitching feebly towards an almost-smile. It buzzed in his palm again and a picture appeared – Adore, nose scrunched, squinting into the sky.

Brian typed back, i promise, you can definitely afford another pair of sunglasses. and yes, your plants are safe in my hands.

The answer came quickly, every letter infused with the kind of wry snark that Adore was so good at: dont make promises my lawyers can’t keep

Brian huffed a quiet laugh. The sound was swallowed up in the space of the apartment, a small rock dropped in a large lake, not even reaching far enough to touch the walls.

Adore had come out the morning after that night to find him on the couch, his guitar abandoned on the coffee table, staring out into the thin morning light. It wasn’t even 7 AM. He’d gotten four or so hours of restless sleep before giving up on it; the room was lit such a soft grey that he might as well have wrapped in a dream anyway. He’d been staring out at the clouds and the inkstain crows flecked along the telephone wires for so long that they’d blurred, like an impressionistic painting – barely real.

Adore had gone and sat beside him. Then she’d leaned over, carefully, and rested her head on his shoulder. He’d shuddered – one long wave through his whole body. She was warm. When she breathed her chest expanded against his arm, slow and steady like waves coming into the shore. He’d only been able to bear it for a few minutes before he’d had to get up, fingers twitching at his side; he’d given her an apologetic smile, and she’d watched him walk back to his room with her chin on her wrist, her forearm braced against the back of the couch.

He’d checked twitter one more time, and then fallen into deep, exhausting sleep.

“That’ll be thirty-two dollars and forty cents, please,” said the bored young woman behind the till, eyeing his – genuinely embarrassing – collection of groceries: ramen noodles, tomato sauce from a jar, the kind of shitty white wine he’d drunk in senior year of college, and stuff to make a salad, out of the idealistic hope that he might actually make a salad.

“I’ll just put that on my credit card,” Brian said. He watched her surreptitiously as she entered the amount onto the card reader. Adore had brought him here a few times, but he didn’t recognize her.

“This your first day?” he said, then winced.

“Huh?”

“I mean. Are you new?”

Now she was eyeing him, even less impressed than she’d been by his groceries. “No…”

“Oh.” He ran a hand over his head awkwardly. He’d forgotten his cap at home. “I just, I haven’t seen you here before. I thought…”

Her mouth twitched, and she popped her gum, a sharp snap in the air. The sound was somehow scornful. “Listen, mister – I’m working, you know, and even if I weren’t, I don’t go out with the kind of guy that bothers –”

“Oh my god, no,” Brian said, flushing, “Oh my god, no, I’m gay. What? No.”

“Oh,” she said. She started turning red too. “Oh. Shit – uh, I mean –”

He laughed awkwardly. “Don’t worry about it. Sorry for being, uh, super weird and stuff.”

The lights overhead were the sickly fluorescent yellow of small-time grocery stores everywhere. He could have been anywhere – east coast or west, north or south, any timezone, any city, any tour. His shoes squeaked on the floor when he shifted from heel to heel.

How was it less than a week ago that he’d felt so at home in this city he didn’t know at all?

“Your receipt,” the cashier said. She held it out towards him, then hesitated visibly. “Listen, uh… are you okay, man?”

He shrugged, stilted, and took the receipt, then grabbed the bags by their handles. “Oh, you know. More of the same,” he said.

It was awful to realize he meant it.

Touring was a little bit like being a ghost in your own body. You were breathing and eating and sleeping, but you might as well have been walking through walls, the way you drifted from place to place, squinting at google maps on your phone, talking to people whose names you’d either forget within five minutes or never knew in the first place. You could be anywhere at all; you might as well be nowhere.

Brian drank shitty wine and played into the night, the notes echoing hollowly across the big empty space of Adore’s living room. Music usually anchored him into his body on the road. Every chord brought him a little closer, the muscles, tendons, bones of his hands all tuned in to the melody with the ease of years. He could close his eyes and wherever he was, he was home.

But each time he opened his eyes again he was someplace new.

Seattle wasn’t a tour stop, but its grey skies, the neighbours he ran into on the staircase, the people he saw in the grocery store – none of them were home. But, fuck it, neither was LA, where he spent a few days every month or two and sometimes found himself waking up wondering whose walls he was looking at. And where the fuck did that leave him?

He played a sour note, paused, and corrected himself. Breathed. Tried to bring Emmylou’s lilting refrain back under his fingers.

Without Adore’s voice in the next room livestreaming her way out of boredom, the apartment grew stale and shadowed; without Katya’s calls every night, the days seemed endless, a pale stretch of hours where he did nothing and saw no one. And as each hour ticked past on the clock it became more and more obvious that the veneer of sunshine he’d pasted over Seattle with Adore’s friendly warmth and the sound of Katya’s smile was just that – a veneer.

Another sour note. He stopped and lay his guitar flat in his lap, then picked up his glass on the coffee table and drained it.

His phone lay still and silent beside the wet ring his glass had left on the wood.

He flicked a bit of lint from the couch off his boxers and took up his guitar again, tracing out the melody that he’d been chasing these past weeks on automatic. The sky outside was ripening, edging into evening. It was almost fall. He’d been in Seattle for three weeks, and it seemed he really hadn’t moved an inch.

He could call Katya. He could suck it the fuck up and call Katya, because maybe Katya was waiting for him to call. Maybe this whole ‘respecting Katya’s space’ thing he was doing was totally misguided, and Katya was waiting beside the phone every minute that he wasn’t out there defending Brian’s honour or whatever that was.

I fucked you up, he could say. I was so busy pretending that everything was fine now and my problems were gone because they weren’t yelling in my face every two seconds that I didn’t realize I was setting us both up to get hurt. I was so fucking stupid, Katya, and I’m so – I’m so sorry.

And Katya would say…

What?

I just want you to be okay, if he was feeling self-sacrificial; it’s your irrepressible Virgo energy, if he was feeling avoidant. Maybe, maybe, I thought you said you didn’t lie to me, and you weren’t going to start, if he was feeling particularly honest.

Katya was always honest, more or less. It was just that the truth was flexible, more conversation than monologue, and irony always had to have the last word. Brian, meanwhile, was just a bit of a liar.

Not with Katya, though. Not before. And he hadn’t meant to – he really hadn’t meant to, not even for a second; it was just –

Fuck.

It’s worse than I was letting myself feel, Brian could say. There’s things I don’t know how to tell you. Because it is about you.

His throat tightened; he let go of the frets. He grabbed for his drink blindly and for his notebook with his other hand. Resting it against the body of his guitar, he opened to a blank page and scrawled,

You fought yourself to bring all your feelings down to heel,

and if you stopped yourself from looking, was it ever really real

but everyone’s been looking

and you –

Something inside of him was drifting dangerously, thin tethers tied to his ribs all that held it in place, like a threadbare sail on fraying ropes. The words on the page blurred in front of his eyes. He raised his glass to his mouth but the rim bumped against his teeth and nothing came out. Empty.

He frowned down at his cup. Like, fuck that nonsense. He’d put good money down on those teeth.

The wine sloshing into the glass when he poured himself another sounded like the ocean creeping onto the shore on a windless day. Like Provincetown – another place he’d gone to hide; another town full of strangers. He set the bottle back on the table, cap off, and picked up his guitar again.

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday he went running in the morning like nothing had changed. Before, Adore would be waking up when he got back; one of them would make breakfast, then they’d jam for a while, and then Adore would smoke up and Brian would text Katya, if he hadn’t already done so.

Now Brian just jogged. Further and further each day, until Thursday found him running along the seaside, pounding the pavement with salt stinging the inside of his mouth on every inhale. The sky was a soft feather blue, the ocean a deep silk bedsheet wavering in his peripheral vision – and then the mass of Pike Place rose up in front of him. Before he could think about it, his feet were carrying him inside; past the florists, past the bursting orange and red arrays of fresh fruit, and down the stairs to the magic shop’s door.

He wiped the sweat off his forehead with the collar of his tank top, grimaced, then pushed the door open and stepped inside.

It was just-opened quiet on the floor. No customers, no music; just a vague shuffling from behind the counter. “Just a minute,” the shuffler called. “If this accursed speaker breaks on me one more time…”

There was a crackling sound from the speakers set high in the walls, like a cheap firework skidding along cement, and then a whole storm of swearing below the counter.

“Uh,” Brian said. He approached cautiously. “Can I take a look? I might be able to help.”

“No, it’s really fine –” A frazzled head popped up from behind the register. “Oh! It’s you! I know you. You think you can fix it? The damn thing goes off all the time, the wiring’s too old –”

Brian shrugged. “I work in clubs and theatres and stuff, so I’ve picked up a thing or two. Let me see.”

Steph – that was her name, he remembered – was as curly-haired and strangely-dressed as when they’d met, with a sprig of rosemary tucked behind the large crow-shaped brooch pinned to her blouse and dust all over her knees. He crouched down beside her and squinted at the mess of wires and cords, poking a hesitant finger around and hoping he wouldn’t get fried. That sound had not been good.

“I think,” he said after a minute, “I think it’s this. Hang on. I’m gonna – if I die, tell my momma I loved her, and tell my dad –” he ducked further under the desk. “Well, whatever you like, if you can find him.”

She barked a laugh behind him.

He didn’t die, although he did burn his fingers a little bit, and when the music started playing (some kind of witchy Swedish wailing, possibly Bjork, Katya – Katya would know –) he let out a “Hah!” of triumph. Eat that, three years on the road and four years of theatre school and thousands of dollars funnelled directly into the University of Wisconsin’s incredibly deep pockets. Eat the shit out of that.

Steph helped him out with two hands around his forearm, shaking him delightedly once he was more or less standing. “You’re a miracle worker,” she said with a bright smile. “I should hire you on the spot, because clearly you’re the real magic here.”

He wiped the sweat off his forehead with his free arm and grinned down at her. Clear bright light was streaming through the high windows in the walls, glinting off her brooch, her earrings, the silver in her hair. Her smile and easy warmth was the same as it had been before, and, god, that was nice. “I’ve got greasepaint coming out of ears,” he said, shrugging modestly. “You can’t really call yourself a theatre kid until you’ve nearly died a dozen different ways trying to string up the speakers on the janitor’s old ladder. ”

“Different ways?”

He waved a hand. “You know, falling, electrocution – so boring. A good old-fashioned garrotte is where it’s at.”

Her eyes scrunched at the corners when she laughed. “I like you,” she said, grinning, “you’re strange,” and he grinned back, feeling lighter than he had all week.

“I don’t know what you mean,” he said. Then: “Oh, hey, the book you sold me is great. Who knew reading about the end of the world could make you feel better about life?”

“That’s right, the apocalypse poems, you…” Steph said, then paused. “God, I’m so sorry, I don’t remember your name. But you’re Danny’s friend, right?”

Brian blinked. Swallowed.

“Yeah,” he said; it came out forced, like he was overcompensating for something. “Yeah, sorry, it’s Brian. Yeah. I took some time off work and I’ve been staying with Danny.”

“Oh, do you work together?” she said, brightly and obliviously twisting the knife. “I know he does something or other with clubs and theatres and whatnot too. He’s very private about those things, but such a sweetheart. I haven’t seen him around in a while, though, how he is?”

“Away on business,” Brian said, “and, you know, we’ve been keeping busy otherwise. I’ll tell him you asked.” He wiped his palms against the sides of his shorts. “Listen, I actually – I should probably be going, actually. I’m supposed to be skyping him in about half an hour.”

An absolute lie, but Steph swallowed it without a flicker of suspicion. She smiled and pressed a hand to his arm. “Tell him I send my love. And thanks again for your help, Brian. I don’t know how many more shocks my old heart could take.”

“Oh stop,” he said, chuckling, and gave a little wave. “See you around, I guess?”

The polite small talk of strangers. Preferable to a slow death, but not by, like, a lot.

Brian took the stairs back up to the ground level slowly, although his heart rate was well back to normal by this point. He wandered out of the arcade, and turned, and walked, and turned, and then he was on a raised dock, leaning against a wooden rail next to a locked gate, which guarded the ramp down to the boats. The wood pressed into the front of his ribs. He curled his palms around the rail, ignoring the bite of splinters.

A light breeze ruffled his shirt and cooled his pink cheeks. The ocean stretched out before him, golden sunshine catching in the crests and troughs of the waves.

He closed his eyes.

At home, he typed, i hope you’re doing okay. i love you.

Deleted it.

Typed, today someone didnt recognize me and THAT made me sad. i think i need an intervention.

Deleted it.

Typed, went to the beach to sea what all the commocean was about but idk im still not shore

Deleted it.

Sighed, stared out the window, looked down at his feet.

Typed, i’m sorry. katya, i’m so sorry.

Deleted it.

“You’re so white from these shadowed winter months,” Katya crowed, shielding his eyes dramatically. “I don’t know if I can be seen with you.”

“You’re real white from being born, you know, caucasian and unfortunate, but I’ve suffered your company for years,” said Brian. He frowned and wiped at his nose where something wet was dripping – sweat or sunscreen, he didn’t know. “If you really can’t bear it, I’m sure I can find one of these tanned, strapping, oiled-up hunks of meat who’d be willing to walk with me –”

Katya grabbed his arm mid-gesture. “No no no, don’t you dare!”

“I’m just saying,” Brian continued, “you invited me, bitch –”

The shine of Katya’s grin, open-mouthed and laughing, was enough to blow his whole awful night out of the water.

They walked. The sun drew rippling air waves out of the too-hot cement; the ocean crashed beautifully green into the white shore. But it somehow wasn’t too crowded, for all that it was the dead of summer, the very peak of beach days. They moved in blissful anonymity. At one point, Katya bought him an ice cream. Brian ate it one-handed, making panicked noises and laughing as it dripped closer and closer to his hand. His other hand was – well. He’d taken Katya’s as they stood waiting for the cone, and he hadn’t let go yet. His stomach flipped giddily every time their steps fell out of sync – their palms would drag against each other, just for a moment, each time making him newly aware again of the calluses on Katya’s palm.

He traced his index finger along the big tendon on the back of Katya’s hand, and Katya glanced at him sideways, quick, lips parting on a short intake of breath. Brian licked at his ice cream and said nothing, warm and smug all over.

Sea breeze and the sting of salt. They leaned over the wooden rail, right into it, shoulders and hips pressed together. The blue stretched endless.

Katya started to turn red in the cheeks around four so they ducked for shade. Brian slouched back against the blush pink wall of some souvenir shop, under the awning, and Katya stood in front of him to block the sun from his eyes. One moment Brian was looking over Katya’s shoulder at the white gulls darting and dipping over the sea; the next, he was blinking up, and Katya was closer, leaning in, one hand on the wall beside his head, his gaze flickering over Brian’s face with the same combination of lazy ease and breathless flight as the birds in the air.

Brian blinked, processing, then licked his lips to wet them. “Feeling tall?” he said.

“Feeling lots of things,” said Katya, smiling faintly. “Tall may or may not be one of them. No one’s ever accused me of a Napoleon complex, Tracy – and my psychological rap sheet is longer than the Mariana Trench. You always take me to new and exciting places, did you know that? That’s why we’re friends.”

“I thought it was for the free therapy and life coaching.”

“Don’t undersell yourself, mama. What’s newer or more exciting than uncertified therapy and dubious life coaching?”

Brian laughed. “I don’t know that ‘new’ and ‘exciting’ are words that many people have applied to me – out of drag, at least.” His mouth twitched. “You might be du-biased.”

He expected Katya to throw back his head, lean away and laugh, but instead – Katya leaned closer, his eyes glinting with mirth. “I’m gonna kill you,” he said, “I’m gonna kill you right here and dump your body into the ocean in front of the tourists, God, and everybody, and no one will punish me when they hear about the years of pun-spewing bullshit you’ve put me through.”

He was so close. Brian’s stomach flipped again; he could feel Katya’s warmth all along him, make out the freckles on his nose. “Kill me?” he said, mouth dry.

Katya blinked. Something about the set of his jaw, the small lines around his eyes, seemed suddenly vulnerable, intense and somehow opened wide.

“Yeah,” he said after a moment. “Or, I dunno. Maybe that other thing.”

Brian held his breath. All he could hear was the crashing of the waves, loud and close – or maybe that was the sound of his heartbeat in his ears. He reached up and brushed the tips of his fingers along the sharp line of Katya’s cheek.

Katya’s chest hitched.

The breeze chased the sunlight through the empty pier, stirring the sand across the wood, and Katya leaned in, slow enough that Brian could stop him if he wanted. Brian didn’t. He lifted his face, eyes slipping shut; and Katya’s mouth fell on the corner of his, once, soft, then warm against his right cheekbone, and again on his left. Brian exhaled shakily.

“What,” he said, unsteady. “Can’t kiss me when the cameras aren’t on?”

Katya huffed a laugh, the breath warm on Brian’s face. He curled a hand below Brian’s ribs; his fingers dipped into the hollow in his tank top to brush against bare skin. Brian shivered. Voice barely louder than the wind in the distance, Katya said, “My life would be so much simpler if that were true.”

Brian opened his eyes. He looked up and met Katya’s gaze, and his mouth twitched, almost a smile. Katya’s stubble scratched at his fingertips as he settled his palm more firmly along the curve of his jaw. “Well, you’re not really a simple woman,” Brian said, and Katya was laughing when he leaned down and kissed him properly.

When he opened his eyes, the sun’s lowest rays had dipped below the edge of the awning, lighting Katya up in gold, and he tipped his head back to rest against the wall, wrapped his free arm around Katya’s waist, and said, “Come home with me.”

Except that’s not what happened at all.

When he opened his eyes, the sun was shining, and Katya was lit with gold, and he tipped his head back against the wall and thought about saying it –

– then smiled crookedly, and said instead, “You kiss like you have heat stroke.” And Katya threw back his head and laughed, wheezed, “no, just heat rash,” while the sun caught in his hair and lashes.

It’s not what happened, but it could have been. He could have taken Katya home, and pressed him up against the hallway inside his door, all that sun-warm skin under his hands. He could have kissed him the way he wanted to. He could have blown him right there with his knees sore against the hardwood, or taken his hand again and drawn him back into the bedroom, kissing him all the way. And after – Brian could have asked him to stay.

That wasn’t how it happened, but, crashed out on the couch in Seattle after his run, Brian dreamed every moment of it. Every inch of hot skin and the rasp of sheets and falling asleep together and waking up together. And when he woke up – alone – he pressed his hands flat against his stomach, feeling like something had been taken out of him. Feeling ill, feeling exhausted, feeling like his head was buzzing and his mind was five feet outside of his body.

Eventually he dragged himself up and fumbled for his phone. He wiped at the inner corners of his eyes with his knuckle as he thumbed it awake; then he pressed his palm over his face, exhaling shakily.

No new messages. Of course.

His whole body hummed feverishly, the twinned effect of the sun on his morning run and the one in his dream. Maybe that was what fucked over his self-control, that sick feeling like he was out of his head, or maybe he was just giving in to the inevitable – but, whatever it was, he opened his messages and, despite all his better judgement, typed out: check in?

Hating himself a little, he hit send.

When there was no response thirty minutes later, despite the read receipt that had popped up almost immediately, he left to go find something to drink.

“Oh hey, it’s you,” said the girl behind the counter. She eyed his purchases. “Wow. I didn’t think it could get sadder than last time…”

Brian huffed a short laugh. “Still gay, don’t worry.”

“Uh huh,” she said. She ran the first wine bottle – yes, first, thanks so much – under the scanner and hit a few buttons. “So is the whole sad and gay deal an aesthetic thing? How much Lana have you listened to in the past three days? I’m trying to decide if I should be staging an intervention that I’m – full disclosure – not really qualified for.”

“Do sad gays get a discount at this establishment?”

“Nope,” she said, popping it like bubblegum. “Sorry.”

She finished ringing him, his three bottles of wine, his pack of sour key candies, and his thoroughly depleted dignity through the machine.

“Credit,” he said, offering it over.

He was threading his hands through the bag handles, waiting for his card back, when she said, “Hey. What’s your name, man?”

He blinked. “It says on the card.”

“Yeah, whatever,” she said, handing it over wrapped in his receipt with an eye-roll. “So what is it?”

“Brian,” he said, and looked at the sallow lights on her face, wondering where she was going with this.

“Brian,” she repeated. “Hi, Brian, I’m Mariam.”

Her tone was conversational but somehow serious, weighted, and Brian – Brian swallowed against the sudden and unexpected feeling of his throat going tight.

“Now who’s hitting on who?” he managed, and she chuckled, but didn’t lose that look in her eyes.

“Brian. Take care of yourself, hey?” she said.

The lights glared brightly across the empty floor, the rows upon rows of no-name brands and the scuff marks on the shitty linoleum. She was watching Brian like maybe he needed watching. He swallowed again, and nodded, and left without another word.

Dust motes floated in the slowly draining sunlight when he returned to the apartment. The whole space of it echoed with the closing of the door. He kicked off his shoes, cracked open the first bottle, and went to get his guitar, glass in hand.

Hours passed. He drank more. He scribbled in his notebook, crossed things out, scrawled corrections in the margins. There was too much in his head. Words tumbled out like a hole had been torn somewhere, all the loose change and lint of his brain escaping despite his best efforts to plug the gap. His writing got sloppier, slanted; he wiped wine from his mouth with the back of his hand and turned the page.

The beach, the dream, the night before. The months of build-up, the moment of release. Wanting, wanting, he wanted so much and he had told himself, when he was a kid, that someday he would be able to have all the things he wanted. If he was smart enough and good enough, quick enough on his feet, he could make anything happen. But here he was: trapped into stillness as the path under his feet cut off abruptly. Because how could he have all the things he wanted when they existed at such cross-purposes?

Or was it just him? Not the fame, not the fans, not the industry, and certainly not Katya – maybe it was Brian at cross-purposes with all of it, putting himself in his own way, selfish and stubborn and cowardly, refusing to accept with good grace what the universe was offering him.

The sun dipped below the blocky Seattle skyline, the buildings across the road cast in radiant red, as he stumbled into the kitchen to open the third bottle. His hands slipped on the cap; he blinked wearily down at it, then out the window at the purples and pinks of the sky, dappled and streaked like watercolours. The sun was just a winking and burnished glare over the lip of the buildings. He inhaled deeply and it almost seemed like he could still taste salt in the air.

The skyline blurred before his eyes, replaced by the memory of the things his dream had omitted. Walking the long way back down the pier, Katya with one arm hooked around his elbow and the other hand clutching at his bicep like an ingenue, twitching with laughter every minute or so because apparently this was the most heterosexual he’d ever felt. Which, Katya had definitely licked at least one pussy in his day, so. What he meant was probably that it was dumb, and romantic, and brought them so much closer together than held hands as they made their way between the shadows of the tall lights that lined the boardwalk. The sun set in brilliant gold in the distance. Brian remembered the warmth of Katya’s chest against his arm; he remembered looking at Katya’s lips, then away, and wash, rinse, repeat; he remembered the sign they passed, jutting up out of the middle of the boardwalk: END OF THE TRAIL.

He remembered going home alone, flushed and giddy with the heat of the day, and turning on his phone to see a new notification from his facebook messages. date night tracy?, it said, captioning a photo of him and Katya on the boardwalk, arm in arm, the soft look on his face all too bare in the deep amber light of the sun setting over the ocean.

Brian shook his head, and poured himself another drink.

The night after that was all in flashes. His fingers sliding along the strings of his guitar. Losing his pen under the couch; hunting through Adore’s drawers for another one. Sweet sad notes filling the room, lingering in the air like sea salt. Fumbling with his phone; his guitar; his own hands.

Love’s the kind of feeling that’s not easy to derail, that was good, that was fine, but I find that I’ve been tryin’ ‘cause, ‘cause what, ‘cause what –

He lost another pen. After that… he didn’t remember much after that.

Brian woke to a splitting headache and a buzzing phone.

The phone was on his stomach; his head was on the arm of the couch. He blinked into the bright morning light and groaned, covering his eyes.

His phone buzzed again.

Whatever it was, it could fucking wait. He let it fall to the side as he rolled over, taking in the mess of paper and pens – what the fuck, where did he get so many pens – on the coffee table, the empty wine bottles, his guitar abandoned carelessly on the floor. The glass doors to the balcony were open, though he didn’t remember opening them, and the harsh cawing of the crows outside made his eyes water.

Jesus fucking Christ.

He stood unsteadily and made his way to the kitchen, where a bag of sour key candies lay splayed open and empty on the counter and a plate with the mysterious remnants of what might be a drunken midnight snack lay beside the sink. He stared at one, then the other, then turned decisively to get a glass out of the cupboards and fill it from the tap. He downed it in one go and poured himself another.

Back by the couch, his phone was buzzing again.

Katya, he realized through the groggy fullness in his head. That could be Katya.

He returned to the couch and lowered himself gingerly, full glass clutched in one hand. He fumbled the phone trying to grab it, which probably said bad things about the balance of alcohol to water in his system at that moment; then he thumbed it awake and scanned it as quickly as he could through the low-burning nausea of his hangover.

There was, in fact, a notification from Katya. A missed call at 2:23 AM. Brian’s heart leapt and his mouth went dry; but then he looked past that, at the avalanche of notifications from twitter and instagram, and his whole body turned cold, shoved into full wakefulness and unholy sobriety.

What the fuck had happened last night?

He unlocked his phone and opened instagram to see notifications in the thousands. Thumbing over to his profile, he found a post he didn’t remember making, dated 1:57 AM. That was – he looked at the little clock at the top of his screen: 7:13 AM – barely five hours before. The little thumbnail showed his shoulders over his guitar; when he opened it, he saw it was a video.

Brian stared at the post in horror for a long moment. Then – because there was literally no other choice – he flexed his fingers, which had gone numb, and he hit play.

The screen cut to his face, frowning blearily and too close, as he tried to prop his phone up. He looked – exhausted. Shit. Dark circles under his eyes, a tight, stressed set to his mouth, which twisted down as he failed to make the phone stand steady a third time. Finally he – the Brian on screen – muttered a sharp fuck, and just leaned the phone back against something or other, putting his glass of wine in front of it to hold it upright, so the rim blurred out the bottom of the frame.

He stepped back, sat down, and pulled his guitar into his lap.

Brian, the Brian watching, took shallow breaths against a rising nausea. His pulse thrummed loudly under the thin skin of his neck.

The camera captured the body of his guitar, the slouch of his shoulders, and part of his mouth, which he wiped at with the back of his hand, pick balanced easily between his fingers. Then he sat up straighter, squaring his shoulders and sliding his other hand up the neck of the guitar into place – Brian remembered that, cool smooth wood under his palm, he remembered glancing at the camera and thinking fuck it, fuck this –

The Brian on screen played an open chord and then set into the melody that made up the verses, the tumbling notes, middle finger – pinky finger – ring finger, and, watching, his brain cut through the fog to focus on that, ring finger, ring finger, the song he’d been working on all this past month coming together despite the drunken way he slid between the metal frets.

And then he started to sing, and Brian went from feeling slightly nauseous to being absolutely certain he was about to throw up.

It wasn’t the verses, thank god. Not the harried scribbles that filled pages upon pages in his notebook, most of them awful, all of them never to be fucking revealed to the world at large because they were his, ugly and sincere and too personal. All the moments that made him want to try; all the things that made him afraid. But this –

“Love’s the kind of feeling that’s not easy to derail

But I find that I’ve been trying ‘cause

I can’t see the when and where –”

A chorus is a vague thesis; but, watching, he still felt stripped wholly bare.

“I hear waves in my dreams at night,

Feel the sunlight and your stare,

So maybe it’s to no avail –

And maybe ‘stay’ won’t turn out stale –”

Brian swallowed, fumbled for his glass of water, tried to hear anything but the roaring in his ears, see anything but his face dipping into frame as he bent lower over the guitar, eyes closed, face pained as he sang stay. And he was sliding through the notes like a drunk stumbling through a door, graceless but functional and – worst of all – far too honest.

“But I still don’t know if I can go

Off-road at the end of the trail.”

Fuck.

The video didn’t end abruptly – apparently, when drunk, he couldn’t make the crop function work for him – but with an agonizing slowness, the last, aching note from his guitar hanging hollowly in the air. His shoulders on-screen rose, then fell; then finally he reached forward for his phone. A flash of his mouth, his cheek, his eyes squinting – and then it went dark, and looped back to the beginning.

He jabbed at the screen to stop it, and stared down at his phone in mute horror, jaw slack and mouth dry.

First things first, he deleted the video. It wouldn’t shut people up, but he couldn’t just let it sit there, all of him laid out in the bare daylight. The raw sound of his voice, scratchy with exhaustion, on his shitty phone mic; that one glimpse of his face, like opening a door you’re not supposed to by accident, the kind of door you can’t close again or back away from. All a room’s quiet secrets, the small ones that cut deepest, framed starkly by the open doorframe.

He wasn’t going to load twitter, or look at the texts that had come in from his friends who’d seen, but then a new one appeared at the top of his screen as his phone buzzed in his hand. It was Shea – a youtube link. His phone buzzed again with a second message, a third, more, all from Shea. He thumbed messenger open, still numb all the way through, and scanned the group chat dispassionately. Then he stopped, and read it again.

FROM: SHEA - 7:17 AM - Friday August 29th, 2017

youtube.com/watch?v=Jf1L34kn0

Please watch this, get your collective shit together, and stop making me feel sad for both of you

Ive got better shit to do with my time

And PLEASE reach out to us, jesus, brian, we care so much and i know youre doing your own thing but we’re really, really worried.

Well. I cant speak for kim. Im worried; that bitch is probably just hungry

He huffed a laugh, but it didn’t feel like one. It felt like something was cracking open inside of him.

His phone buzzed again.

FROM: KIM - 7:18 AM - Friday August 29th, 2017

i can be hungry and worried at the same time cunt

but sheas not wrong, bri.

please.

Brian swallowed, then swallowed again, throat tight and eyes stinging. He took another gulp of his water, then, after a moment’s hesitation, typed, i’m here. i’ll watch it in a minute. i love you guys and im sorry

He wasn’t sure what he was sorry for. There was a whole laundry list of reasons he should be; he might as well cover his bases.

It wasn’t – it wasn’t that he’d been wrong to leave. It wasn’t that he’d been wrong to want out or to go silent. It was just that it could be right for him and wrong for them, and he could be sorry for that, even if he wasn’t sure yet that he regretted it.

He hit send all the same.

His phone buzzed almost instantly with their replies, but he didn’t look, pulling up the youtube link instead. Then: for the second time that morning, his heart stopped and his body went cold.

“help me i’m not dying fast enough”, said the title under the loading video. “Katya Zamolodchikova Periscope (August 29, 2017 @ 2:40 AM)”.

He didn’t want to click – he knew he didn’t want to, and also that he shouldn’t – but he did anyway, because sometimes he was a masochist like that. Lately, especially.

Katya, on-screen, stubbed out a cigarette and lit another one, inhaling deeply.

“I’m not going to tell you how many of these I’ve had tonight,” he said to the camera. “Because it’s none of your business what hell cycle of ideating and ovulating I may or may not be going through right now. That’s first of all.”

He looked… gaunt. Unkempt. Worse than in the video Shea had taken a week earlier.

“It’s a funny thing, to have – kind of – resolved myself to wanting something, and always having it sort-of in reach, and then to realise maybe I can’t have it at all. I could have, but maybe I missed my moment, maybe I didn’t lay out my thesis convincingly enough – maybe maybe maybe. Maybe what I wanted isn’t on the proverbial table anymore. That’s harder, I think, than knowing all along you can’t ever have it. It’s a different kind of wanting. I don’t know.”

He flicked his fingers in the air by his ear, ash falling grey and soft like snow from a rooftop.

“I’ve never been good at wanting things. That’s funny, right? From an addict, I mean. It’s funny. You can laugh – I’m laughing. Maybe you are, I don’t know, I can’t see you. I don’t care.

I’ve never been good at wanting things – I’ve had them, or not had them. It all seemed kind of –” he paused, then laughed, a hoarse bark. “You know, insignificant in the face of the rapid decay of the environment, our bodies, society as a whole, and ultimately the universe itself. The universe is dying, by the way, in case you hadn’t heard. I took a first year physics class, girl, so I know what I’m talking about.”

You read Neil Degrasse Tyson’s book once, you fucking idiot, Brian thought; it rung hollow, as if it came from someplace a good distance from his own body.

“So I’ve never been good at wanting stuff. Drugs isn’t want, drugs is need. And that’s not – I know I look like a mess right now, but a) not on drugs, and b) still not about need. I’m not in some kind of I’ll-die-without-you pseudo-love psycho-abusive Nicholas Sparks kinda bullshit. I’m just – I’m just sad. I’m just really fucking sad. And I’ll delete this tomorrow, and anyway –” Katya looked sharply into the camera, and for a moment, Brian felt seen – “I figure it’s only fair.”

“So anyway,” Katya continued. He turned away, towards the road; his eyes lit up with amber streetlight, glass-green and shadowed. “We’re all dying. I know, Brenda, I’m a broken record over here about it, but we’re all dying, and that’s kind of a big deal. And I love it! In some strange, existential way, it’s liberating, it’s electrifying, it brings you closer to your own body and soul and maybe even God, if, I don’t know, that’s your thing sometimes – ‘your’ being mine – but then –”

He stopped himself. Brian watched as his fingers tapped frenetically against the side of his cigarette for a moment, then he raised it, pursed his mouth, inhaled. Exhaled. He lifted his face to watch the smoke rise and disappear.

When he looked back down, he was smiling, crooked at the edges, like it hurt. “But then something comes into your life, and suddenly, it’s like, wait. Hang on. I want to see more of that – let’s stop the death train, maybe. Let’s put a hold on this dying shit. Because whatever it is I’m feeling, I want that, and – and – and why the fuck am I wasting time killing myself when this has been here, maybe all along. Self-indulgent fatalism suddenly starts to feel – selfish.”

“I mean,” he interrupted himself, suddenly and obviously changing tacks as a thought struck him, “please still come to my show. It’ll be so good. All these questions and more will be addressed – not answered, because who cares about answers, but asked? Yes. More questions than you ever wanted. Please come.”

He flashed a smile, plastic-white, but it melted away too quickly into the same tired pallor.

“I don’t know. I don’t even know if anything I’m saying is true. I want all sorts of things all the time, but it’s always a little bit – intellectual. Like, wow, I wonder what having that would be like? Feel like? I’ve never experienced this kind of wanting that doesn’t have an endpoint – it won’t just stop once I get it. It goes forward. It has a future. What the fuck is up with that, you know?

But it’s not – you don’t just get to have things.”

His voice cracked.

“No. Okay. One second,” he said, and then he disappeared around the camera. Brian could still hear him breathing, though, quiet in the night air, an eerie echo of so many phone calls over the past month.

When Katya returned, he lit himself another cigarette, and this one didn’t shake between his fingers. “I’m going to delete this the minute it ends, for the record. I don’t know why I’m even doing it. I guess I’m just lonely. I know, I’ve been on tour, and that’s great, but – I dunno. It’s lonely. Work is lonely. Dying is lonely. And there’s one thing I want and I thought I could have it but – turns out – I probably can’t, and that’s – that’s lonely too.”

His mouth twisted, an almost-smile.

“I always thought that was such a cliché: to feel alone in the middle of a crowded room. And I love a cliché when it’s not played straight, but. Maybe, sometimes, the crowd doesn’t matter when one person’s not in it.

Anyway. I’m doing a lot of whining for someone with not a lot of problems, comparatively. And this problem isn’t even really mine. Not at its core. Selfish, right? But hey – no one’s making you tune in, Elizabeth.”

He took a final, decisive drag on his cigarette.

“Okay. I’m gonna go listen to some ambient noise and try to sleep.” The corner of his mouth twitched. “Ocean sounds, track four: a classic. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Bye.”

The streetlight blanketing his face in fragile white, he looked into the screen again, directly, as if he could see Brian there looking back at him, heart sore in his throat. Then the video went dark.

Brian sat and stared down at the phone in his hands. Between the low buzzing nausea of his hangover and the Seattle morning greyness, the world around him felt – distant. Not quite real. Not as real or as close as that twitch of Katya’s mouth, or the wry, exhausted humour in his voice. The frustration and sadness and longing in every line of his body.

They were both so stupid. And so fucked.

He tapped out of Safari and into his messages, where he typed again, check in?

Knees tucked into his chest, he waited, and a minute later the reply came in – the little OK emoji, thumb pinched to index finger.

He exhaled loudly and pressed his hand over his eyes.

The phone buzzed against his thigh a moment later and he looked down again. It wasn’t from Shea or Kim like he thought it might be – it was, unexpectedly, another text from Katya. All it said was: you?

He bit his lip, thinking about it. He wasn’t going to let himself lie, to himself, to Katya, not again. He wasn’t going to do that to them. But the honest answer was – yes. He wasn’t good. He wasn’t better. But he was okay, for all the values of okay that the check-in had meant since the first time Katya had needed it: I’m alive, I’m safe, I’m here.

Yeah, he typed and sent, that’s about right.

He looked up from his phone at a sudden noise beyond the front door – a thump, like something heavy had been dropped.

It could have been one of Adore’s neighbours, so he dragged himself up and started to walk over, ready to offer assistance if needed. The woman upstairs was older, and generally bought more groceries than she could carry. But as he was approaching the door he heard the scrape of a key in the lock, and then the handle began to turn.

Adore wasn’t supposed to be back until that evening.

“Hello?” he started to ask, but then the door swung open, and he was staring into a pair of very tired, very startled eyes that definitely weren’t Adore’s.

“What the fuck,” said Bianca del Rio.

To his own surprise, a burst of laughter punched out of Brian’s stomach. “Yeah,” he said, staring back at Bianca, at the douchey sneakers on his feet, the Shangela shirt he was wearing, and the small duffel he’d dropped behind him. Brian found himself smiling, just a little. “Same.”

#I've said this to u already but… why #trixya #trixie mattel #katya zamolodchikova #dare #angst #submission #fathwtf #canon compliant

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comicteaparty · 4 years ago

Text

May 30th-June 5th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from May 30th, 2020 to June 8th, 2020. The chat focused on the following question:

What flaws does your protagonist possess, and how do you show this in story?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

he tends to run away from things and people!

i show this by having him run away from things and people!

She's reckless and always thinks she's right. I show this by having her follow her opinions into dangerous situations haha

I have no idea how to answer the second part of that question

My antagonist

also reckless and always thinks she's right

what a pair

wow, you guys are typing a lot.

eliushi [a winged tale]

As the only wingless child, Florence is used to others ostracizing her. This causes her to believe that she’s worthless or at least a crappy replacement for her mother since she has trouble reading. This is shown by her being passive when confronted with the other winged children and tolerant being left behind. When her mother disappears, her first thought is to find her mother (to make sure mom is safe of course) but really because she feels she can’t possibly fulfill the roles her mother did for the winged community.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

man i gotta read a winged tale seriously

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

For my comic uh lmao. It's been touched during OIYD!'s ctp chat but Cara tends to think critically on her romantic relationships, and thus even when things she goes well, she has her doubts and tries to end it before it develops lmao. Also she runs from her problems a lot (been addressed by her friend Ana through their last discussion). She done goof a lot of things but OIYD! will be pushing on her to how she gonna deal with those mistakes and her shortcomings too.

also like i guess how its depicted uh through dialogue and her body language. she physically closes herself off a bit when Ana was roasting her, and upon meeting with Richie too. so yeah lmao

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Phaedra's faith and devotion to her patron goddess is, to her, a great strength - but in light what she'll have to go through, it could very well be the source of her breaking point. She's never had to consider other perspectives - to her, the line between good and evil is as clear as the horizon, and no one can tell her otherwise. I haven't gone into it much yet, apart from a few sentences in the first chapter, but it'll become painfully clear later. Her family has dutifully served the goddess for generations, and as such, Phaedra has effectively put all her eggs in one basket, and is extremely proud to have done so. As time goes on, we'll see how that works out for her...

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

AAAA

blurred lines between good and evil

I love that

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Hooooh boy! My characters are basically just big buckets of flaws and personal issues. Izrekiel's flaws: * As a result of his amnesia and past traumas that still have an effect on him despite his inability to remember them, he changed from originally a fairly passionate, happy person to a rather reclusive and distrusting mess. I try to show this with his reluctance to speak much of the time, and how difficult it is for him to befriend Agatha. * He's also very quick to anger, which I show later in the story when he gets into somewhat petty fights with people. * Oblivious to even the most obvious of things, he often misinterprets people or misses nuances altogether. He is definitely not a social butterfly and comes off rather awkward most of the time. It happens a lot when someone makes a joke around him, and he just stares silently. * The rest are big ol' hefty spoilers! Agatha's flaws: * She can be incredibly bossy or "mom-ish," especially to her younger sister, but also to any random person whom she deems needs help. This is shown pretty obviously with her immediate urge to "fix" Izrekiel. * Definitely overbearing. She has the best intentions of friendliness, but she will stick her nose so far into your business that her nostrils will flatten. Mainly, she asks a lot of questions, and it can be rather annoying and obtrusive. * She also has a habit of not listening to what her younger sister, Maret. has to say. She often unintentionally ignores her, thinking her more "adult" issues to be far more pressing.(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Sunny: -She’s fiercely independent. As a result it takes her a longer time to trust people and tell them what’s wrong. -Doesn’t like the idea of people telling her what to do, because she craves the sense of control she was denied in earlier years -Dislikes showing sadness since it makes her uncomfortable. So she defaults to anger instead. As a result, she’s more likely to lash out in anger and regret the actions she did in the heat of the moment. -Sunny needs to realize that people aren’t inherently monsters either, that people can be morally grey. Her black and white morality may be challenged in both her writing and her relationships. But we’ll see about that. Liam: -Pretty blunt about criticizing people. He grew up in a critical household but needs to learn that there are different ways to give criticism -Highly uncomfortable with conflict. You’ll find him trying to fix the issue as fast as possible and when that doesn’t work...he’ll flee and even outright lie. It makes him seem untrustworthy and unreliable. -he loves his family. But they are his biggest fears too; the fear of disappointing them, the fear of losing their love. -for a calm guy, he tends to hide a lot of incredible self loathing and guilt. How that will affect his relationships, particularly sunny, has yet to be seen.(edited)

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Nyx thinks with her axe. She’s pretty clever if she has to be, but her usual approach to problems is „off with their head.“ The consequences off that are what drive the majority of the story - she nearly gets herself and the people around her killed. The big problem is she‘s a drifter - she rarely sees the consequences of her actions.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Nyssa‘s a bit spoiled and soft and while she overcomes that easily enough, it‘s the combination of her believing she can fix absolutely EVERYTHING and her incapability of dealing well with failure that brings her to her breaking point.

eliushi [a winged tale]

I really love that I can identify with everyone’s character flaws and that makes it all the more relatable

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Lead girl: Naomi Belfry had to deal with fleeting moments of affection from her parents trying to give her a stable childhood altho everything came crashing after her father's absence. Trying to keep this spoiler limited, like children in her position, she escaped reality through imagination lens and her obsession in her interests in forensic and observation. - I plan to show this, whenever something perks her interest, whether it's witnessing a crime scene, dangerous object or observing people at parties. Naomi also lacks a sense of trust in others due to broken promises but it conflicts with her yearning for companionship and love. Will see how she juggles her different sides. I plan for her to be morally gray. Trisha Bennett: She is a big-hearted girl and loyal friend to Naomi. Despite the rumors of the Belfry clan, Trish sees the lonely girl who tried to push others away. Trish's flaw is that she always puts other's happiness before her own. From a young age, she cared for her siblings, sometimes her grandma. Everyone basically pushed responsibility to her, due to her inability to say no. She listens to Naomi's rambles about a new mystery she's discovered.(edited)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

nervously stares at the dumpster fire that is Trigger Elliot

eliushi [a winged tale]

Give us all the FLAWS

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

there's so many ! Trigger's biggest flaw is his constant running away from his problems and taking ANY sort of responsibility. He takes his short comings out on those around him, and is constantly in a bad mood in the comic. His biggest hurdle is his past with his ex GF, Boggmouth, to which is his biggest fear and one that he's been trying desperately to run away from (so far that he changed his name, dyed his hair, lost his glasses, etc) Vahn has many flaws as well, mostly surrounding them as a mystery and that inability to step up to the plate. They're similar to Trigger in running away from problems, as they are more comforted with familiar spaces than new territory of becoming more or something else. Vahn also has a past they have yet to deal with!

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

wow i really like reading people's different character flaws! Krispy, your character Trigger is such a complex character. I should get on reading it (edited)

eliushi [a winged tale]

I’m curious how everyone thought of their flaws for their characters. Did they come to you naturally? What would you say makes a flaw compelling to read/draw/experience?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't really make a character and then go, 'alright, time to add some flaws.' Like.... the same trait or even the same action can be seen as good or bad depending on who you ask?

eliushi [a winged tale]

Totally agree. A trait when taken to the extreme can be a flaw (too kind —> becoming a doormat). How do you make sure that flaw is the “right” one or the one that most fit with your character and plot?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Even the extreme-ness may be different depending on who you ask. Some people may feel it was 100% justified; others may feel it was too extreme, or even the opposite, not enough!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I like to imagine how those flaws would work in real life. If those flaws carry the story and force the characters to develop/face consequences, I usually include them

eliushi [a winged tale]

So true keiiii and I like that approach shadow!

So what makes a trait a flaw for you keiiii

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like look at all the disagreements IRL...

I don't like to divide character traits into flaws/virtues, personally. Like, yes, there are times I notice a trait and go "oh yeah, that's totally Bad, totally a flaw." But as a storyteller, I don't use that kinda judgment as a primary tool. I guess it's in the same vein as the whole 'no one is a villain in their own story' school of thought?

eliushi [a winged tale]

That’s fair!

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

It took awhile to develop my character's flaws! I start out drawing the character for fun. For some characters, I made them with intention of flipping Anime tropes, I felt some of them are so shallow, I want to flesh them out in my own stories. So as I write, their flaws are reflected in their upbringing. The personality gets revised over until I have certain ideas in mind, then their flaws come along with the creation process.? I have two sides of my brain cell where, I want to draw these children in a fun, safe environment. Then I got this other side, influenced by teen stories/games where I want to give them risks, be delinquents, have messy choices. I gravitate to stories of teenagers finding themselves?(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

What I do pay close attention to is: do the characters have major disagreements ever? If the answer is no, then I may have a problem.

eliushi [a winged tale]

All the juicy conflicts

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I think I gravitated toward portraying a flaw I knew I had when I was younger. Something I'm able to look at with a more critical eye, now that I have more experience. Something I can portray both critically and sympathetically - so people can still like the character, but want them to grow past their flaw.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like, even if I don't think of a trait/action as bad, SOMEONE in the story would probably not agree with it. Stuff like that.

And vice versa

I do think HoK focuses a lot on greyness as an undertone, though. Not every story would benefit from this approach.

eliushi [a winged tale]

I like to design my flaw aligned to the LIE the character believes (in reference to character arcs) and see what sort of negative consequences that will be interesting for the characters to try and overcome

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

In my previous comic, almost every major player was BAAAAD, and that was the point of the story.

But HoK is not like that.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

ooh the Lie that a character believes? That's interesting, Eli.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I think that makes for a good sympathetic protagonist - we're all told things that we may have to unlearn, or learn to read differently. For the protagonist, it's an awakening to the truth of the world around them. Their job as a protagonist is to accept that awakening, for better or for worse.(edited)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Yeah I like to approach character arcs using this reference https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/character-arcs-2/amp/ the flaw comes easier to me once I have the specific LIE developed

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ooooh that's a good one Eli and to piggy back off of you, LadyLazuli, a lot of character flaws I chose were observed from either close friends, family, and even myself! There's something about intimately knowing about these flaws that you can see how it unfolds in real life

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

this would be so helpful, I have a teen character for my slice of life, that I couldn't figure his flaws out, other than being anxious. Will look into these books.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

You can try! It would help a lot I read somewhere that one of the reasons Princess Mononoke had such great characters wasn't because they were inherently good or bad.

Rather, they each had differing goals and that is where the conflicts are.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, one moment in that movie that really shines in that aspect IMO was when Ashitaka talks to Eboshi, and she retorts, "so you want us fight the samurai instead!" (i.e. instead of fighting the forest animals) This was not treated as a big moment in the movie; it was quick and pretty understated. Nonetheless, I feel it really hit the nail on the head with that particular theme.

like, "our disagreements are distracting us from the TRUE enemy: this third party!!!" is totally a valid theme, but it's not the only resolution in that kinda situation. I'm glad Princess Mononoke went for a different direction.

They did have a third party (heck, a fourth party too), but it wasn't what the whole situation was about.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I’m curious how everyone thought of their flaws for their characters. Did they come to you naturally? What would you say makes a flaw compelling to read/draw/experience?

yuh that's a good question. I just kinda look at the experiences I had so far or what my family or friends experienced and I'm like "what is a good thing about this flaw, what is not so good?" like there's some juggling to figure out like in some situations its great and others it's just lmao pain.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

In my case, I didn't really "think of flaws" for my characters. My characters just kinda popped up in my head, and as I got to know them, their traits—both good and bad—revealed themselves to me.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for Cara's case its like lmao idk. a reflection of how my mom and I handle dealing with romantic relationships, and just seeing where that goes lol

for Richie, it's like that but what we like in men/masc-presenting folk but take it up to 10x and see what happens LMAOO

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

So basically it could be a case of veering one trait into the extreme

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

(Also, I totally agree that the characters in Princess Mononoke are stellar! Especially Ashitaka and Eboshi.)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah, but I also made sure there's nuances too since they aren't a true reflection of our own chimera they need to stand out as their own characters after all, not a voice piece

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yeah, the scene I still remember from that movie was when lady eboshi showed ashitaka around Irontown and he sees how she helps the lepers and the women be empowered. It showed that she’s a morally grey character

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I always like messing with that kind of of diacomtomy between people and just lmao idk I just like seeing that despite differences things are connected lol

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I really like the Disagreement-focused approach. Where would the characters disagree with each other? With YOU, the author? Would they ever call you out on something? Would you agree or disagree with the callout?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Also tuyetnhi I agree. While we can also include flaws of our own, there comes a time where our characters eventually develop into their own person

It’s like watching your child grow up

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I learned that young durring my RP days in the early 2010s

lmao

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

And when Ashitaka reveals a rather selfish thought of his. Eboshi: Does that arm of yours want to kill me? Ashitaka: If it would lift the curse, I would let it tear you to pieces.

(I've watched this movie way too much throughout my life tbh )

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

@keii’ii (Heart of Keol) absolutely! Your characters won’t always do what you want. Sometimes they have ideologies that make you want to shake them or disagree. Because in the end, the characters aren’t you

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I actually didn't see that as particularly selfish about Ashitaka (and I think that's a good thing that we see these differently)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

They will make mistakes that you might not in real life. let them.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah lmao that's why in cara's situation I'm like "same" but also "Noooooooooooo why u do that"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) And they might not even see those actions as mistakes, depending.

And YOU will make mistakes (or "mistakes"... again... depending) that the characters wouldn't make

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

even stuff I don't even realized from other friends who looked at Cara and they're like "she's her biggest cock block; it's that personality." lmaO

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

You don't know how many times I've wanted to slap the shit out of my characters

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

honestly

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) And they might not even see those actions as mistakes, depending.

@keii’ii (Heart of Keol) exactly! Hence these are the Lies they might have developed! They might have lies they grew up with that don’t match with ours

And yes....there are times I want to facepalm whenever I see my characters make a mistake I wouldn’t have. But I know that they’ll eventually develop out of it....or face natural consequences.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Anyone else here doing more grey-focused stories? Not every story needs to be that, you can have very mature stories that aren't grey. But yeah

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I have a very grey character

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I mean... I guess it depends on labeling. I have very strong opinions, but I feel like my characters could very easily be seen as grey by others

Especially my villain

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think "grey-focused" is less about the characters and more about the narrative, but yeah, it's pretty case by case

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I think in that case Cara would be considered .... light grey?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

This character did something VERY bad, and his actions have caused people to be split about his actions But he has deep regrets and guilt about it, even though it was a necessity at the time(edited)

Whether or not people forgive him or understand his motivations

Only time will tell

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Oh yeah, my narrative definitely can be seen as grey.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

since it's her narrative focus in the story but as there's some dark moments, most of it is just her just figurings thing out

dark moments as in lmao "i'm hurt in the feels"

not life death situations lmao

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I switch between perspectives a lot in WotP, so it definitely can be seen as grey

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I don’t like grey morals that much, actually. My favourite narrative device is genuinely good people working at cross-purposes. Nobody is evil, or grey; but their personal histories and goals set them into conflict with each others.

These histories often cause or are brought by their flaws, too. But a flaw doesn‘t necessarily make you grey.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't mean grey as "an even mix of good and bad." I meant more like, the narrative does not take sides.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for Richie, i guess for his development as something that is a mere figment of fantasy and trying to be like "wow I wonder what being a person is like?" and he might just become a grey character if he ever experiences Cara's world lol

ahhh

yeah this story is probably pretty grey then lmao

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

You can have a narrative taking side and still be good-people-in-conflict.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

There is one scene I wrote where the morally grey character meets someone who he’s affected. She hates him, but understands his motivation. Both of them have a heart to heart and agree that they were simply two people who were involved in a tragedy, and it hurt everyone.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That's a thing too! But I'm specifically curious about stories where the narrative does not take sides

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

So in the end, it was a scene where the audience can sympathize with both, but these characters are in conflict

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel you can't really have a character who will be universally seen as 50:50 good:bad. Different people will have different opinions about the same character.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

that's so true like

idk, i guess this is an annoyance when protraying folks

and i'm like "ya just make it like it is, if you're intimate with their background or have relevant experiences with it"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

In real life you’re going to meet people who may not like you

Some may even hate you

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

that's why I'm like gearing Cara as like that lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Not everyone is going to agree or like you, and it’s the same with charavters

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yepppp

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Just because another character dislikes your main protagonists does not necessarily make them a villain

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

That's what I'm thinking too. I may see a certain character of mine as leaning more good, and another as leaning more bad, but I know my readers are likely going to disagree. I call my villain a "villain" because he opposes the "heroes," but honestly, I know that a large part of my readerbase is going to take his side in the end.(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

In every villain’s mind they are the heroes of their own story

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It reminds me of a quote from the Inheritance series

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't 100% agree actually, but I do agree with something in the same vein

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

[me looking at my story] "who really is the antagonist? it's probably all of you" [points at 3 characters at the same time]

lmao

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like not everyone actually thinks of themself as heroic -- but most will see their choices as reasonable given the circumstances.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I agree. Probably should have reworded it as “everyone thinks they are the protagonist of their own stories”

A protagonist can be “villainous” too.

Also tuyetnhi lmao you have so many antagonists

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

omg I missed this really good convo on Princess Mononoke, I LOVE Lady Eboshi's character. I was busy talking about character writing for another show(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yes she is a wonderful character! Let’s use her as an example

In her own mind she sees herself as a protagonist defending the leper’s and the women

And having to fight her way to the top from being a slave

She could have her own story herself!

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's like Cara has to fight her dreams, her family, her firends and her self as a cock block ya LMAO

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Eboshi is fantastic. She's not good, she's not evil, she's just a person doing what she thinks is best. Even if she ends up doing more harm than good, her aim is to protect her people and strengthen her town. She does some truly heroic things as well as some heinous ones. And I love how Ashitaka lands squarely between the two factions - in his own way, because he seeks peace, he almost acts as a villain for both the gods and the humans. SO COMPLEX it's lovely.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

aggressively throws love at Studio Ghibli

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

A related question that's fun to ponder is, who or what do they blame when things don't go well? (Obviously the answer's gonna vary a LOT depending on the circumstances, but something fun to think about)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmaoooo oh man

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Gosh, that's a great question.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Cara would blame herself if it's something she consciously done wrong, but if it's something out her control she'll blame the person or thing she thinks caused the inconvenience.

Cara: "Stupid sexy... man coming out of my dreams looking..... ass"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Don't we all wish we had a stupid sexy dream man to blame

(maybe not but lol)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Izrekiel would blame himself. Agatha would blame the powers that be. Ryukou would blame Izrekiel. Maya would blame Ryukou....

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm that is a good question

Sunny blames others in the heat of the moment, but she’ll think back and regret it

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for Richie uh lmao he blames himself for most things.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Liam blames it all on himself, and won’t tell anyone

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Phaedra blames herself initially. Then, as with all things, deflect the blame to Ocean Satan.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

if it something Cara done tho, I think he'll have to do some mental gymastics that he isn't outright hurting her feelings but getting his point across (hypothetical situation here lmao I need to draw faster)

ocean satan lmao

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I feel that energy from him tbh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ocean Satan/lucifer probably has his own fan following tho

Chethanists

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Fata Morgana! Or the Bone Church (RIP)

but yeah, when the origin of all your world's problems is a single entity - BLAME IT

very easy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

just like blaming an alternative god for the misfortune of humanity lmao

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

In my story, Naomi might go into deep thinking if things don't go well. It means the mystery got deeper and she wants to find out why did it not go well? It depends, I should write a case where the blame can go easily to someone, but the MC has a different reaction than others.(edited)

It depends on situation, I'm trying to think about something that makes the character blame someone? Jasper might be the type of kid, who self blames his own incompetence.(edited)

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Thorn is impressively good at figuring out how to assign blame/responsibility to the right parties in the right proportions, but to be fair, he's had a lot of therapy

varethane

That thing about never having a character everyone will like is so true-- I feel like the most consensus I've ever had was over Teeko, the main character of my previous webcomic. Almost everyone agreed that she was a cinnamon roll, but there were others who considered her irritating (or at best, found her irritating at first but then got to like her)(edited)

I'm pretty sure the lead of my new comic will be significantly more polarizing

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

(He has PTSD from a dragonslaying mission that went bad, where he didn't give the order that made it all go wrong but was in a strong position to stop it and didn't, so Responsibility been kind of a major theme in his brain ever since)

varethane

Her major flaws are that she's kinda selfish and impulsive, and while I have a whole Arc planned, that type of character is just guaranteed to rub some readers the wrong way

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Meanwhile, Leif is very well-conditioned to assign responsibility to "anything and anyone except my country's leaders and system of government"

Which is also changing over a long-term character arc! And there's definitely debate in the comments sections at any given stage about how reasonable he's being now

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

My favorite flawed character ever is Leona from Prague Race. I loved that comic but not gonna recommend because it is on forever hiatus. I'd never seen her flaws before in any other character and yet felt them deeply. Her flaws are to the point where you're not even sure if she is a good person. https://www.praguerace.com/comics/1438038533-06.jpg https://www.praguerace.com/comics/1438197522-07.jpg https://www.praguerace.com/comics/1438802007-08.jpg(edited)

varethane

She isnt, at all, but I still love her as a character ahaha

(Well okay she is a little bit at least)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Ahh I remember Prague race

It’s fantastic. I really enjoy the antihero/unconventional qualities Leona has(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i LOVE her

I love her look

I love her attitude

she is like

my favorite character ever in webcomics

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ahhh so is her flaw having her desires supersede others?

Or desiring entertainment even at the cost of hurting others?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

She is exceptionally curious, to the point of recklessness(edited)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Flo: blames herself Ash: blames anyone but Flo Ice: blames anyone but themself Bell: blames the person who is deemed logically wrong

I think Leona’s flaw is self-centredness. AFAIK it’s because she is going to die? Terminal illness? then she feels the world owes her everything

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

She was like that before that happened though

Like in the opening where she drags her friend into a sketchy shop and plays with the mysterious artifacts and falls into a new world

eliushi [a winged tale]

Ah so just a selfish character then?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

All the while being like

"hey neat!"

eliushi [a winged tale]

Disregards others’ boundaries for her amusement and purpose

It’s a great flaw to explore

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh that one is a very good flaw

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Before this point it was more disregarding her own life for her amusement and purpose

It's her own fault she has a year to live

eliushi [a winged tale]

It’s all starting to come back haha

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

So basically she’s self entitled

Those types are tough to pull off

If there’s one character flaw I want to see more, it’s characters that struggle with taking a stand

eliushi [a winged tale]

For sure. I find antihero and passive protagonists especially difficult to write/draw

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i might be the opposite because people complain about my protag being too passive lol

He just wants to live

/not live

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm, I’m the opposite actually! I dislike conflict so I try to either run away or hide when it happens

So for me it’s easier to write someone who is scared of conflict and is seen as a coward than someone more active

eliushi [a winged tale]

Eli did the proactive choice to follow the minor goddess right? I see that as having agency

I meant more of writing them as compelling characters

Especially as protagonists

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ahhhh i'm glad

i agree that stories usually read better when the main characters have a goal

it gives you a thread to follow throughout the story

eliushi [a winged tale]

For sure. Having a clear external goal to augment the internal one is key

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

What if the main character’s goal is not having a goal

Or being viscerally against the goals of everyone else

eliushi [a winged tale]

Against the goals is a goal in itself I think haha

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Where it’s seen as against the cultural norm to have one....like Eli

Omg full circle lmao

eliushi [a winged tale]

But if the goal is to be passive then... that’s where I find it is difficult to write compellingly

Unless you have side characters that boost the agency

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ugh can't talk about eli while talking to eli

i got confused lol

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I think with those types it works with other characters also having goals

Exactly Eli!

.....oh my god this is getting confusing

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ack now i got confused in the opposite direction

i think

eliushi [a winged tale]

Exactly shadow. Hence I designed ash, ice and bell to be strong voices to counteract quiet Flo

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I love me some well-written passive characters TBH

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

mm i agree. if the mc doesn't have a lot of agency, other people need to to drive the plot forwards

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yeah! I did the same thing by having sunny be outspoken and Liam be the one that runs away

And she ends up having to call him out on his shit!

I wonder if their passivity can be both a strength and a weakness tho

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think I actually gravitate more towards passive ones than to overtly proactive ones, with all other factors being hypothetically equal

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

stares at Danbi

eliushi [a winged tale]

But I find there’s a point in which your passive character needs to make a change for their arc; stasis = death. Ultimately depends on the narrative and theme and with a negative arc it’s something to play with

Danbi is not passive I don’t think

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmmm danbi has a passive nature But you’re right now that I think about it

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think part of it is I'm currently in the "I need to take a break from those ultra-motivated shounen action MCs" phase

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Me: Eli is passive! Eli: no Shadow: Danbi is passive! Eli: no

eliushi [a winged tale]

I find the passive protagonist is like the boy in hyouka

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

what's he like? i haven't read/seen that

eliushi [a winged tale]

Or a lot of those anime’s where the love interest or others drag them into things

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ahhh those types

You’re right about those being hard to write about because they can become satellite love interests

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm thinking more along the lines of, when the story itself isn't about WE RESOLVE THIS BIG CONFLICT YES

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

With no motivation except for their friends/love interests

eliushi [a winged tale]

https://hyouka.fandom.com/wiki/Houtarou_Oreki

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I have not actually read this, so not sure why this is the example to come to my mind, but: there's this manga? in which humanity is facing extinction, but people are just calmly accepting instead of panicking or rebelling. They're not trying to fix things, they're just living out their lives

varethane

In Wychwood, Felix is an extremely passive character (it's one of his biggest flaws, he's absolutely terrible at standing up for himself and..... I mean, atm he doesnt really have any opportunities to make decisions for himself, but if he does he second guesses himself and ends up doing nothing lol)

eliushi [a winged tale]

I see that as more of a choice of acceptance keiiii

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ooooh okay I see Eli

eliushi [a winged tale]

But I mean we all have different definitions and thresholds we refer as passive

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I mean it's okay for us to define "passive" differently, as long as we're aware of how the different definitions affect the discussion

eliushi [a winged tale]

Yep yep

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

If I knew we were all going to die and there was nothing i could do about it, I think I'd just live out my life too. Spend time with family and cook good food.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

In that case there is one character I have like that, but the reason he’s passive is because his hyperperfectionism has marred him and he’s severely depressed now

eliushi [a winged tale]

I’m more referring to a narrative passive character https://www.jimenainovaro.com/blog/2019/9/7/passive-protagonist-how-to-tell-if-you-have-one-and-how-to-fix-it

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Anyway, HoK is like that: it's not about FIX THIS BIG PROBLEM WITH THE WORLD. The world does have massive problems, and there are multiple groups of people trying to fix, delay, or otherwise address those Big Problems in various ways. But the story itself is not about that.

eliushi [a winged tale]

Right so if the story is not about saving the world, in relation to the actual theme of the story, I don’t think Danbi is passive

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

ELUISHI

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

mm we're talking about the benefits of passive characters but that link is "how to fix it" ah

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

YOU’RE HERE

eliushi [a winged tale]

Oh hai!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel like that article is written with the assumption that you want the readers to root for the MC, which I think is.... not necessarily what you want.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hello????

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

It depends on what kind of story you want to write I guess

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah like lmao root when you feel like it worm

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I guess for my story it's just lmao done out of my curiosity and just seeing that to form.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Full disclosure, I do not read fast enough to have read the entirety of that article by now (edited)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Exactly shadow

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

But I think that also brings up an important point

eliushi [a winged tale]

https://threekookaburras.com/blogs/news/14720925-writing-tips-whats-wrong-with-a-passive-protagonist perhaps another viewpoint

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

WHAT is the "ideal reader reaction" you want with the story? (can break this down to "with this one scene/ arc" etc)

(can also have multiple ideal/desired reader reactions for the same story/ arc/ scene)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ooh that's an interesting question

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

(I also really like parentheses)

eliushi [a winged tale]

I feel like that article is written with the assumption that you want the readers to root for the MC, which I think is.... not necessarily what you want.

I recall you mentioning HoK is more like a character study. I think more conventional storytelling want the audience to be invested in the protagonist

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i honestly don't really have an answer

just want people to know these characters and this world

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Personally the reaction I want....is for other people to learn along with them

And hopefully touch their hearts

And yeah keiiii you DID mention that it’s more focused on character development at one point

eliushi [a winged tale]

Ideal reader reaction by act 1: exciting adventure here we go! Act2: oh no Act 3: oh that makes so much sense why everything is happening but how will they succeed Act 4: hope

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

OH that’s what you mean?

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

What’s an act four

eliushi [a winged tale]

Oops I meant season

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think. My four chapters are similar to Eli's

eliushi [a winged tale]

(Season 1 is act 1; seasons 2&3 act 2 and last season is act 3)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for me, like if to make my characters relevant to the audience isn't the main goal. like relevant characters doesn't equate to folks understanding to the nuances of their struggles. at least for me. I just want to write the story for the sake of it and what folks react to it uh lmao that's their reaction. stick for the ride if you want to see things panned out is my mind set

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Arc 1: people are excited then sad...what the fuck shadow Arc 2: oh my god oh my god this happened it’s chaos angst time Arc 3: melancholic but going up in a way Arc 4: AHHHHHHHHHHHHH Arc 5-7: this is sweet as hell

eliushi [a winged tale]

Yeah I should rephrase: there can be many reasons why you want the audience to NOT root for the protagonist (ie protagonist is a serial killer and the reader is more keen to know if justice will be served)

But these are done intentionally and the protagonist is not passive in the narrative sense(edited)

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

Act One: Buildup Plot Point: NO NO NO NO Act Two: angst Plot Point: Act Three: Ships

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like, I don't necessarily want anyone to agree with any of the characters. But I want people to be able to see why they think or feel the way they do. More importantly, I want people to FEEL that their (the characters') feelings are real and powerful. So I guess for every arc of HoK it all comes down to: "my heart is breaking and healing at the same time"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Natasha I relate to the ships coming in later part

same

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

I’m tryna have at least one ship sail in act two XD

eliushi [a winged tale]

I live for the AHHHHH and

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

dang I just love throwing curveballs

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

we can tell

eliushi [a winged tale]

Shadow will draw the ships for me

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh the AHHHHH part is a ship

YES I DRAW ALL THE SHIPS

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

The is my favorite part of the story

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

not saying which ship tho sorry

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

Aside from the ships

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lol

if I have to break up the structure for OIYD!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yes the is a good scene More please

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

... nah it's too soon to share ask me again in 5 years or somethin

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

@Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!) mood

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm like lmao i'm on ch. 3

and it's early to draw some conclusions of what structure i had set up, but I do have a clear idea where I want going with it. just... have to draw it lol

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

Dude I’ve basically scripted my act three and I haven’t even gotten to my first major turning point

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

same mood, same boat

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I’ve only scripted up to arc 2

And I’m already feeling the chaos

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

for me uh.. I guess its main arcs are there

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

My act one is the most solid, followed by act three. I’m slowly figuring out the middle XD

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Because shit gets dark in the end of arc 1

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

but I had chopped off like 8 chapters lmaO

Deo101 [Millennium]

I script... like one scene at a time if that..

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

so it's a lot shorter than it was originally intended but at least

it is more impactful for me lmao

just non canon content now lol

eliushi [a winged tale]

You got this Natasha!

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

YEAH!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I also can't script super ahead, at least with this story. With my previous comic I scripted like 2+ years worth of content in advance

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oof that's my first webcomic lmao

and ... I stopped after the first chapter lmao

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

What reader reactions I want for my comic? Uhhh... Volume 1: Pretty world! And also some mysteries... Volume 2: Even more mysteries... culminating in the moment Volume 3: IT'S EVERYTHING I COULD'VE WANTED

Deo101 [Millennium]

yeah my next comic I'm planning ive got a script for like a whole thing but for this one im like "hmm... what seems fun?"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

For me, I think the main factor is that the previous comic was heavily dialog-driven (you could convert it to an audio drama with minimal changes), while my current comic is very visual (you really can't convert it into an audio drama...)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

EVERYTHING WE WANT CLAIRE?!!?!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Everything you want

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

EVERYTHING?????

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yes

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

man, it must have some good cheese in there

Deo101 [Millennium]

oh are we answering what we want our readers to think?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yea

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yiss

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm like "I'm not qualifed to answer this because lmao"

Deo101 [Millennium]

I want my readers to be like oh this is fun! the whole time, i think

dont want it to change, want it all uphill

no stress or nothin just fun times

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Deo reading your webcomic is like going to the beach Pretty chill

Deo101 [Millennium]

hell yeah!

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Space beach!

Hey my rank just changed!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Wha

Deo101 [Millennium]

when you read my comic I want you to feel like youre sittin poolside with a cool drink and some sunglasses

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it does have that vibe yeee

Deo101 [Millennium]

fuck yeah thats everything I could want babeyyyy

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

It has mojito pina colada vibes

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

aww yeee

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Mine is just sangria

WITH SHOTS

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I guess for OIYD! is just "bloody mary please say sike"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Is eightfish’s like....champagne

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Refreshing glass of ocean water

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Is this the "what drink would your comic be" topic?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

salty

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

salt

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yes

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

Ooooh good question

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Time to bring up my answer to that question again: "liquid bacon fat, so that it stays in your heart forever."(edited)

Natasha Berlin (Pot of Gold)

Hot chocolate

Dark chocolate kind

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Holy shit that’s two sides of the spectrum right there

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Omg keii

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

keii idk how I feel about that if I'm gonna have caradiac arrest reading your comic lmao

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Heart Attack Of Keol

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Clogging my arteries oh lord

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

You're killing me today kei

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Omg

But wait is Phantomarine also a glass of ocean water

Deo101 [Millennium]

not read it yet but I feel like its that blue drink from applebees

do you know the one im talkin about, the one with the shark gummy in it

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

whaaaaat

We don’t have Applebee’s here do explain

YES?!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

drop a big salt chunk at the bottom of it and YEP that's Phantomarine

Deo101 [Millennium]

very sweet but there are like 2 shots in it so you will get 1: brain freeze and 2: more tipsy than u think!

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yuhhh

my mom always buy that drink deo

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I kinda want to try it now

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

It's good

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Applebees come to Canadia plz

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmaoo

wait what

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

We canucks want to get a brain freeze pls

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

there's no applebees in Canadaland?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Nope

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omgGGG

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

We have a tims tho

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

also this might be getting a tad bit off-topic so watch out

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

okay tru tru lmao

dang tragic like

imagine making drink references in your comic and someone is like

"yo what is that? lemon juice?"

"........... lemonade?"

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Sorry rebel. We are just perpetually off topic

Deo101 [Millennium]

the page that had orange juice in millennium everyone was talking about the orange juice

and same with the page that there was milk

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

actually this would be an intersesting question like lmao if your comic still makes references to your native place of being

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

The logo was funny deo

And cute

Although at first I thought the cow was a space pig...

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like having orange juice in space i'm like yaaaa lol

Deo101 [Millennium]

okay but the page with milk also had a murder skeleton

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But space pig

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Skeleton milk

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Mmmm yes taste the calcium

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

so much calc

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Enough to bone milo

Deo101 [Millennium]

yeah everyone was like "he just wants the milk!"

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Page with the clock everyone was talking about the clock

The way deo draws inanimate objects is just

Really memorable

I guess

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

whu

Deo101 [Millennium]

you would be the first person in my life to have ever said that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omg

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

(or maybe you just don't have anything else more interesting on the page :p)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

The devil is in the details

Or should I say

bone milk

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Crunchy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i don'tt hink I can handle bone milk since i'm starting to develop an intolerance to lactose

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I'd love to draw my ships but anxious brain thinks, I shouldn't because no one knows them

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I remember that there was a talk about the page on deo’s server

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh man ships worm lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

And someone mentioned carbonated milk

Deo101 [Millennium]

I dont wanna think about carbonated milk

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

people like guessing Richie or Dean for Cara and i'm like ya'll missing the 3rd option

"it's the friends we made along the way"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ot3 ayo

Deo101 [Millennium]

I think I was the one who mentioned carbonated milk though

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

dfjalkgjaeoifuiodj

Deo101 [Millennium]

gjsdaghsagjkhgjkasg

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

OT3

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

YOU WERE

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Do it I dare you

Deo101 [Millennium]

shadow big brain w ot3

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I meaaaaaaaan

I have a love triangle

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

if they were compadable with each other

probably LMAO

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But if they get together

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

but lmAO

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

its a metaphysical paradox

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

AAAAA

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But yeah I love the OT3 option

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

It would be actually interesting to see polyamory in a comic not about polyamory though

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

[puts down things to consider]

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Cara/Richie/dean

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm like I want to see as a possibiltiy

but it's also errrrrr enriched with Viet stuff and i'm like bruh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I too, like Eightfish, dare you to do it

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

how that would affect Cara's relationship with her family

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree Eightfish! I like the secret polyamory in a comic, like Marmalade Boy had a poly family and only when I was older, knew about it. I reread it, was like holy cow! It is a poly family(edited)

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

:000

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

same with Dean's too since they're both tradtional vietnamese families to some extent

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

(Apologies for taking forever to type this) "Maybe no one talks about Interesting Things in your scene because there is no Interesting Thing in your scene" used to be my big fear, to be honest. But I feel more confident after a recent epiphany, and if anyone else has that fear, please know that if YOU see Interesting Things in your story, that absolutely counts.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

aww thank you!! I need that reminder.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm like man

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

It was a joke because deo's milk scene literally has someone being cut in half! But I do agree with you keii!

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like I would like to, but I ain't poly and I don't want to mis represent those communties ya kno? riP

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

And there's bound to be someone who likes the same interesting things as you

Deo101 [Millennium]

yeah keiiii I worry a lot that all my comments are about asses or something because they just dont care about anything else i'm doing

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Because Lavender Tea was on haitus since I thought my main lead boy was boring but I realized my friends do like simple characters which don't have to have complex pasts.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I'm always like "lol my comic is full of boring conversations" But then every once in a while I get someone who says they actually really like the boring conversations and that just makes me :)))(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

People like to hyperfixate on the weirdest things in stories

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) YES!!!!! Interesting Talky Scenes FTW

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Also I actually like the casual conversations you have eightfish

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Well like would you have as many reader if your comic was just ass panel ass panel ass panel? :P

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like sometimes I see people asking "how do I make a talky scene interesting" and I'm like... BUT TALKY SCENES ARE INTERESTING???

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

people can have the ot3 in their dreams and I'll recognize that but for me lmao I'm like i can't

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

It is a little challenging to make talking scene interesting visually

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

it is actually, like the way to keep it interesting I heard, is the angles, and not always focus on their face shots.

Deo101 [Millennium]

hands

give them an activity and focus on hands babey

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

OT3's, eh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Background props and angles is what I show

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

feet

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i guess suffering through complex angles in my panels do really pay off

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I wanted to challenge myself to draw silent panels and minimal dialogue.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I wonder if I sort of lucked out with HoK, in that the characters are often (though not always) locomoting while talking. That probably makes it easier to make it visually non-boring?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Ladylazuli i see you eyeing that ot3

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

same, I like to draw background props, different angles.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh lord what u done shadow

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Beautiful things tuyetnhi what you talking about

Deo101 [Millennium]

ACTUALLY huge sidenote but you reminded me joichi, whats helped me get my writing way more to where I like it is every conversation being like "what if I took out all these speech bubbles?" and then actually going through and cutting most of them out

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

what u MEAN DFJAKGJDKFdjl

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I think the ship shadow is thinking of might be more ot7billion

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

fkaljfdghakldfj what

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

the more the merrier

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh god

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I have shipped OT3 before. I researched quite abit into Poly and started making a story on the side, just to understand the system and responsibilities. Just know that it's not perfect, but there's some differences(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah, I looked into poly relationships to but lmao even with the research and asking first hands accounts, I don't think I can do it justice

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

... me with monagamous relationships tbh

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like it's hard working with a person in a monogamous relationship but also doing the same with 2 or more oh lord man

it's a lot of work for the persons who inciated and participating in such relationship struggles

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

it is still a big challenge. The good things I did hear for poly folks is, a strong sense of trust, and balancing the love between other partners. Also consent always(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I’ve read testimonies of poly people and they stress that you need a LOT of communication

There’s a lot of trust and mutual respect needed to pull off poly

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

mhm

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'd argue you need that for any relationship!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Actually yeah you’re right! Every relationship needs that!

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I may stick with monagamy couples most of the time. The only time I'll draw poly is a mention of couples, i feel I'm not the right person to write drama about poly relationships yet.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm like thinking like for poly persons that working with 2 or more partners like

Deo101 [Millennium]

thats why I dont write drama about any relationship LMAO

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I have thought about writing a poly relationship once but er....I was thinking of doing villains in a toxic one

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

how does that play out like... since I think the possibility with being burnt out with communication with multiple partners

and the partners themselves like their relationships with the main poly person's partners too

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

And showing how it deteriorates through time when one partner is abusive and it destroys the other two

Oh I’ve seen an abusive poly in real life before

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oof

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

One partner chose to have multiple male partners

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

so I have rip

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But her boyfriend didn’t want that...and the female partner wouldn’t allow him to have other partners

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

also uh same but it was one guy with women as his multiple partners

the guy had a toxic masculinity mindset.

and i'm like to my friend like " Are you still going out with him?"

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

was he cheating on them though, or was it consented? Because infidelity is different from poly. My poly friends can't stress that enough(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it was consented but from what I see it that for to established relationship he wanted like the women to be him as his partner

and they agreed to it

but he also was meeting with other women other than his poly partners

so i'm like

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Okay that’s....not good. And I think that’s what needs to be addressed a lot I wonder if there are comics out there that talk about poly relationships

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

idk. like if it works with them, that's on them but i'm like idk how I feel if my partner will do that when I agreed to be only monogamous to him

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

yes exactly. Yes there are and usually healthy poly relationship. I have to go find it, but not many comics.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

so lmao it didn't sit well for me due to my morals I guess

but if he, and my friend, and his poly partners had it work, I guess more power to them?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

Okay but if your partner decides to be poly without you, that's not being poly, that's cheating

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

No, eightfish the thing is that they agreed to him seeking out multiple partners while being monogamous

so it's more like an poly-open relationship thing?

at least that's in my understanding

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Not only that, banning your partner from seeking out others is hypocritical

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like his partners doesn't have an issue with it

that's the distinction

idk man i don't understand well, and even equiped with this knoweldge I rather read other poly folks works about the subject than attempting poly relationship dynamics myself lmao(edited)

that's my two cents on it lol

yeah

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

like for some poly people, they like the idea of having multiple partners, so that there's less pressure to be a perfect partner. Some compare it to; having more than one friend? what do you guys think though?(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

idk I just have friends

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I say that's some valid points. like they're varying degrees

Deo101 [Millennium]

im not poly so I cant comment

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

and the poly experience is varried so there's not right all to be all so yeah lmao.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

yeah I think so too. TBH, I was feeling mixed when they compare romantic partners to having multiple friends?

but because I think the love for a partner is much deeper, but that's just me?(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I say it's valid if you feel that, but i know folks will beg to differ on other responses

I guess for my experience, friendship love can be deep as romantic love and i'm not nesssarly lacking if I don't have love from a romantic partner nor a platonic friend

it's varied, fluid, and if it works for your understanding... I don't see the harm

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

ah when you explain it, I can see why, I do see friendship can be pretty deep and emotional.(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I think for me, I feel love very deeply for my friends and also my boyfriend. the differences are paper thin between the way love feels for me, it really comes down to "I chose him to be the one im kissin and stuff" cause its not even "spend the rest of my life with him only", because I fully want my close friends to be with me the rest of my life! I would love to live near or with them and see them every day, so its not that sort of foreverness thats different.

its not something that I'm self aware enough to be able to pinpoint.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah!

Deo101 [Millennium]

also this is VERY off topic I feel

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

... very tru

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

oops, it was interesting though. I've been questioning about the differences between romantic love and friendship(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Paper thin differences between deep friendship and strong romance are actually pretty relevant to HoK Though probably still off topic for this week's topic

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

I feel like I'm arriving four years later to the party, but if we're talking about character flaws then oh boy do I have some for you! In O Sarilho, we have: - Nikita's big inability to open up to people and having absolutely no tools to deal with the traumatic things that happen around him. It's so much better to keep it all in, ignore the people who are trying to help you and just let it all come out through anger; - Shizuka always says the wrong thing. Always. It's her natural talent. She doesn't mean them that way but now they're out and that's what counts; - Franquelim avoids conflict (with good reason) to an almost complacent point; - Dária is completely unaware of her privilege and tbh her own sheer luck!!; - Steffano has some problems with making his intentions clear and privilege too, in a way he also a bad time standing up to his father's antics and correlates his relationships with how useful they are to him (and vice-versa)

eliushi [a winged tale]

I’m always curious about the creator’s process arriving at their stories and characters, including character flaws! I’m wondering how these flaws affect the character developments/dynamics and propel the story?

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

at least for me, I am trying to write a story about cooperation, so figures the major flaw my main character would have would be... being very uncooperative

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

(Osarilho is amazing and illustrates that perfectly )

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

()

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Oh nooooo I was typing a long reply and accidentally deleted it

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

OHNO I wAS LOOKING FORWARD FOr IT

looking at @keii’ii (Heart of Keol) is typing... with such antecipation

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I should type in notepad and C&P but I never learn...

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

well, I think character flaws need to relate in some way to the major storyline, to the big events and themes of the story, but a lot of what I got comes from my interactions with other people, seeing what they think and also how I think and evolve and rationalize stuff... but obvs that all needs to be molded in a way that serves the narrative

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Anyway, I was starting to talk about my experience writing my previous comic, which was a conflict-driven story. What is the conflict (and/or theme), and why are these characters personally involved? What traits, goals, etc. of theirs keep them tied to this very unpleasant mess?

I didn't actually have to sit down for many days trying to figure that out. Once the biggest piece of the puzzle fell into place, the rest just followed pretty smoothly!

And the biggest piece of the puzzle was "what is it that I want to talk about with this story?"

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

yeah! that kinda tends to happen xd find the big piece and the others follow

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

So I think that's sorta similar to what @Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho said about cooperation. In my case, it was "romance can be VERY DESTRUCTIVE"

(I had seen too many "finding Mr/Ms Right fixes all of your life's problems" stories at that point in my life)

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

romance doesn't put bread on the table

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

So I had: - one extremely manipulative, baby-faced MC & his love interest (figuring out that he was manipulative was a part of the First Big Piece that fell into place) - one guy who actually found his True Love, married her, but still had serious problems. He had not even begun to resolve those problems when his wife unexpectedly died - another guy whose OTP was himself x his sister who did NOT want any of that (no assault happened, but that does not make this okay) They all had other aspects that I'd consider flaws, but you can see how those flaws are central to the story.

HoK, on the other hand, isn't really a 'there is something objectively terrible going on' kinda story. (I mean there is, but the story doesn't focus on that.) So I approach it from a different angle that I can't quite articulate/describe right now.

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

with terrible things it's easy to divide the characters in proactive/complacent axis

the "something terrible is happening, are you gonna do anything, or are you gonna let it happen?" but also the third option you are making the terrible thing

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yus

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

some people transform into tigers.. to cope

carcarchu

i don't know if i've ever consciously thought about giving my characters flaws. all i think about is "this is the role they need to perform, and this is how they're going to do it"

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, it's not like an MMO character creation process: "pick body. pick face. pick strengths. pick flaws." It's a lot more.... simpler and complex at the same time

Nutty (Court of Roses)

In Court of Roses, Merlow's main flaw is that he spends so much effort making others happy and comforted that he entirely neglects himself. He's had a traumatic experience in his past, and since it's still fresh and painful for him, instead of opening up about it, he drinks to numb the pain, if just for the night. Until the nightmares awaken him, of course. While he is an extremely social boy and thrives off the company of good friends, he is so, so afraid of them getting caught up in his troubles. So much so, that after an especially terrible nightmare, he attempted to run away into the woods to escape them "being hurt" in some way. He's constantly putting others before himself. Hopefully he'll learn through the other main bards (especially Nocturne) to take care of himself without guilt, or in a self-destructive manner.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

As I think of Eliushi's question; when I typically think of flaws, I imagine they need to effect the character's life or relationships with others. Some of my older teen or adult characters, I can naturally imagine their flaws, since they are closer to real people.

While my cinnamon roll-like OCs are a little harder to figure their flaws, it can't be too dark or out of character. I figure I'll figure it out as I carry on the story(edited)

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

Cricket is mean, antisocial, and irresponsible. All of the rest of the pirates hate her because she went behind their backs and did something destructive that got them all in trouble. She also has a learning disability that she's really hard on herself about, calling herself "stupid" for not being able to read. She also has no problem with killing or stealing. Captain Harriet Hopper is more of an outwardly good person, with strong moral values and a general capability of commanding respect, but she has very low self confidence, second guessing her leadership decisions and often relying on reassurance and guidance from others rather than taking control of a situation.

The rest of the cast are pretty much just ruthlessly evil with only a few exceptions.

DanitheCarutor

Julian: - They're completely humorless, they do not laugh, they do not smile, everything is VERY serious business! When a joke doesn't fly over their head, they will not find any shred of humor in it. All jokes made by them are purely accidental. - Julian has no self-worth. Self-care is practically non-existent, they don't care about sleep, hygiene, eating and anything else that would help them feel even remotely better. Also, other than with Apollo, they will never stand up for themselves or give anyone lip unless it's to defend someone else. - They are an OCD level workaholic/cleanaholic, and will clean and keep themselves busy regardless of environment. While they did pick up good domestic responsibilities and work ethic at a young age, these positive habits have turned into excessively defensive ones. - They're a tiny ball of stress that second guesses themselves constantly. They are on edge nearly 24/7 about everything, especially when it comes to their partner and his instructions. - Very unambitious overall, they don't see themselves with a future so they don't try to have one. - Julian can have quite a temper and can be an absolute stubborn mule sometimes. They used to get in a lot of fights, especially when defending other kids, now they're like those grouchy old people who'll yell at you to get off their lawn. - They refuse help from others, seeing their own needs and presence as a burden they try to keep as low a profile as possible. I try to show these flaws through Julian's actions, interactions, the subjects they talk about, body language and appearance. Admittedly a lot of their personality hasn't shown through yet, currently in the comic their slew of mental health and domestic issues are overpowering who they are as a person, they're essentially living in survival mode. Later on their personality will start to show more, with their general flaws not being as heavily influenced by poor mental health and a bad environment.

DanitheCarutor

Apollo: - While growing up, his education wasn't taken very seriously by him or his family, in turn he slacked off a lot of school and now isn't the brightest bulb in the box. The lack of good education is also coupled with being very sheltered, he started out in private school then moved into homeschooling, so he never developed any significant life experiences. - He lacks basic survival and emotional comprehension skills. These skills were never encouraged or experienced during his upbringing, so he never developed them. - Apollo is very much a spoiled brat, he puts his wants first before considering other people. Although being someone with a general good nature, he tries to do his best with his close friends, he's just not very good at being considerate. - He is extremely gullible and overly trusting. If someone he considered a good friend told him you could create diamonds through your nose by snorting wasabi he would probably believe them. - Apollo doesn't have a whole lot of respect for himself, letting people use him and swindle him out of his money and possessions. His upbringing has a lot to do with letting people take advantage of him, but it also has a lot to do with his underlying guilt for past events, he just doesn't see himself as someone worth respecting. - He's a raging alcoholic due to the previous point. But he is very stubborn about it, insisting he does not have a problem, and that he can quit any time he wants to. - Apollo is a very lazy person overall, he refuses to learn basic skills, doesn't even take care of his personal and environmental cleanliness needs half the time. I try to show Apollo's flaws the same way I show Julian's, although with him there is a lot more focus on actions since he's a much more active person. His bad decisions are a major cause for some of the current predicaments in the comic, and have had a large roll in the story so far.(edited)

SPOILER

Tantz Aerine (Without Moonlight)

Fotis' flaw is that he lets emotion take over him and tends to jump to conclusions. He's very precocious and has had to grow up too fast (he's only 14 and has experiences not many adults have, or should have) but he's still young and inexperienced. He makes errors in judgment though he learns fast. When he thinks coolly he's more likely to make a pretty solid call. But when he's angered, or feels intense grief, or intense joy or desperation, he tends to make less informed choices. Unfortunately living in WWII and Nazi-occupied Greece makes for a very unforgiving environment for trial and error. It shows often in the comic when he talks about things with older people- people that fight with their own demons and challenges.

kayotics

Oh crap, I almost missed this topic. My main character has SO many flaws

Deo101 [Millennium]

and we love him for it

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

it's not too late

list them!

kayotics

I must prepare myself

kayotics

Some classic Toivo flaws: - Serial romantic. He loves the idea of being in love, and is desperate for it. - Flighty. He's hard to keep around. He's afraid of commitment for various reasons, and coupled with the serial romanticism, leads to a lot of heartache for him. - Related to the last one: avoidant in general. If he can avoid talking about hard conversations, he will. - A lack of coping mechanisms. This comes out in a very real way in chapter 3 when it's revealed that all of the ghosts in his house are literal ghosts of relationships, made by him trying to avoid dealing with the breakups. - Impulsive and leaps before he thinks. He's the stupidest genius you'll ever meet. He's super smart, and pretty wise, but he's going to act first before he even thinks about it. (sometimes this is a positive thing, and leads to ingenuity) - Petulant. He's pretty childish a lot of the times. - Brash. This doesn't come out as much in the comic, but when he's dealing with new people or people he doesn't like, he can be quite rude.

I'm sure there's more but those are the big ones.

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