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9worldstales · 4 years ago

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MCU: Is Loki a serial betrayal or not?

So one of the things I see often discussed in the MCU is the long, long history of deceit and betrayal that goes on between Thor and Loki that got mentioned in “Thor – Ragnarok”.

As various MCU movies and comics get mentioned, I made a list of the sources referenced so you’ll know if they might end up spoiling you. Consider yourself warned (or feel free to skip the list if it bores you).

SOURCES MENTIONED:

Movies: “Thor” (2011), “The Avengers” (2012), “Thor – The Dark World” (2013), “Avengers: Age of Ultron” (2015), “Thor – Ragnark” (2017), “The Avengers – Infinity War” (2018), “The Avengers – Endgame” (2019), “WandaVision” (2021)

Comics: “Thor: Son of Asgard” (2004) “Marvel's The Avengers Prelude: Fury's Big Week” (2012)

Direct-to-video animated film: “Thor - Tales of Asgard” (2011)

Motion comics: None mentioned

Books: “Thor: heroes and villains” (2011), “Marvel Studios The first 10 years” (2018)

Novels: “Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: Thor” by Alex Irvine (2015), “Thor: The Dark World Junior Novelization” by Michael Siglain (2013), “Loki – Where mischief lies” by Mackenzi Lee (2019), “The pirate angel, the talking tree and captain rabbit” by Steve Behling (2019)

Webs: None mentioned

Others: Interview “A Talk With THOR: RAGNAROK’s Eric Pearson”, interview “Joss Whedon told Comic-Con the question he doesn’t want us to ask ever again”, Interview “Chris Hemsworth (Thor: The Dark World)”, Interview “Tom Hiddleston Talks the Love-Hate of Loki and ‘Thor’”, Interview “Chris Hemsworth Talks Expanding Beyond Asgard, Interview “Building to THE AVENGERS 2, and More on the Set of THOR: THE DARK WORLD”, Interview “Chris Hemsworth ‘Thor: Ragnarok’, Embracing the Comedy, the Thor/Loki Relationship and More”, Interview “Avengers 4 Endgame: Is Loki ALIVE? Chris Hemsworth gave a massive hint at London fan event”, Interview “Avengers stars reveal one big downside to the job”, “How Taika Waititi Made Thor: Ragnarok So Damn Funny”, Interview “How 'Thor: Ragnarok' Honors & Deviates from Its Comics Foundation”, Interview “Empire Podcast Spoiler Special: Thor: Ragnarok with Taika Waititi”, interview “Kevin Fiege Talks Iron Man 2, The Avengers and More”

So now, let’s start with a quote from Eric Pearson, one of the guys responsible for the script of “Thor - Ragnarok”.

“Thor and Loki have had so many interactions, and alliances, and betrayals. They’ve been each others’ nemesis for so long that even they’re a little exhausted by themselves. It’s almost like the fatigue of dealing with each other allows this terminator like force of Hela to just walk in. They’re divided so she conquers.” [A Talk With THOR: RAGNAROK’s Eric Pearson]

So, since math is an awesome thing and “Marvel Studios The first 10 years” gave us an official timeline let’s do some math.

For start the official timeline.

965: Odin adopts Loki

2011: Thor

2012: The Avengers

2013: Thor: The Dark World

2015: Avengers: Age of Ultron

2017: Thor: Ragnarok, Avengers: Infinity War

2022: Avengers: Endgame (actually not mentioned in the timeline but it takes place 5 years after “Avengers: Infinity War”)

Loki is adopted in 965 so he and Thor are adopted brothers by 1052 years in “Thor - Ragnarok”.

So… “Thor” takes place in 2011 and overall covers three days and, in 2 of them, Thor and Loki are on opposing sides. At the end of “Thor” Loki is believed to be dead.

In 2012 Loki shows up again in “Avengers”. Thor arrives on Earth by night and spend there what, a day? before going back to Asgard with Loki, who then spends a year in jail with Thor never visiting him before he is freed in “Thor: The Dark World”, which takes place in 2013.

It’s worth to mention in “Thor: The Dark World” Thor and Loki are allied against Malekit before Loki is believed dead again and instead rules Asgard up until 2017, when “Thor – Ragnarok” takes place.

Anyway this means that in those 1052 years they spent together Loki and Thor had been on opposing sides for 6 years… during which only 1 year was spent with Thor knowing Loki was alive and only 4 days were spent with them actively fighting each other.

But maybe those days were days of intense betrayal… so let’s sum them up.

For start let’s remember everyone that betrayal is a deliberate break of trust, of faith.

“Thor” is the one which contain most betrayal, even though some things weren’t meant to be as such at the time in which it was filmed but whatever, let’s be strict.

- Loki ruined Thor’s coronation

- Loki had Odin warned they were going to Jotunheim so that Odin came saving their lives

- Loki lied about Odin being dead and Frigga not wanting Thor back.

- After making clear he was Thor’s enemy (I mean he sent the Destroyer to ‘Ensure his brother does not return’, could he have been more explicit?) he tricked him into helping him making him believe he was dangling on the edge of the Bifrost and needed his help.

Okay, that’s a total of 4, one of which done to save everyone’s live (and it saved everyone’s life but, as I said, I’ll be strict and still count 4).

“The Avengers” despite painting Loki as the villain, has no betrayal. Loki doesn’t make any attempt to paint himself as Thor’s friend, he doesn’t even call Thor ‘brother’, he makes clear he wants Earth’s crown and he has made clear in “Thor” he wouldn’t hesitate to kill him. Yes, he lies to him about sending the Tesseract away, uses an illusion to trick Thor into ending up in the cage and drop the cage on the ground and stabs Thor on surprise as they’re fighting. He however never let Thor believe they’re on the same side, I’ll say with dropping the cage he remarked how he wasn’t on Thor’s side since he wondered if the fall could kill Thor. If Thor didn’t want to get the message, this was not Loki betraying him, this was Thor refusing to listen. As for Loki surviving to a fall into the void and not warning Thor about it, that’s not betrayal either. When Loki let himself fall in the void it was a suicide attempt. His survival is a plot hole for whom Whedon didn’t really bother making up an explanation.

“Well, I can’t tell you exactly what went on because it’s this dark, dark secret that I didn’t make up yet. But, the other day, I had trouble with that because he had this very passionate Shakespearean tragedy thing going on in Thor and then I needed a villain who’s not only capable, but ready and willing and anxious to take on all these heroes. For me, he just basically went on some horrible walkabout… That was pretty much as far as I got.” [Joss Whedon told Comic-Con the question he doesn’t want us to ask ever again ]

“Avengers: Infinity War” suggested Thanos resurrected him, how is up to speculation. I wonder if it has to do with the mind stone, which somehow resurrected his mind in a way similar to how Wanda resurrected Vision. But I’m not sure Marvel really tried to figure this out beyond ‘it just happened’. Anyway Loki didn’t plan to fake his death, his survival/resurrection was accidental and he didn’t own to his family to send them a note saying ‘I’m alive’.

So we’ve a total of 0.

“Thor: The Dark World” has merely the fact that Loki again didn’t die when he was supposed to. Mind you, he was supposed to die (or if he were to survive this was meant to be a secret as the movie’s ending was meant to be very different), but then they decided to keep him alive and on the throne of Asgard for “Thor: Ragnarok”. So, he clearly was stabbed and let Thor believe the wound was fatal, then went back to Asgard, took Odin’s place, offered Thor the throne and when the latter refused, took it for himself. We can’t count the fact he told Kurse ‘You might want to take the stairs to the left’ as betrayal because, again, being jailed, he’s clearly not on Thor’s same side nor trusted. Betrayal is a break of trust from someone you believed on your side. An enemy doesn’t betray you, a friend does, and Thor stated he doesn’t view anymore Loki as his brother. We also know the action was a miscalculation on his part, he thought Kurse was merely a Marauder, a pirate, not a Dark Elf part of a Dark Elves’ invasion, and he didn’t think it would end up causing Frigga’s death, just some troubles for his father and brother who cast him in that cell and, according to the novelization, he was meant to end up regretting it short after doing it.

“The east stairs lead to the barraks. You’ll find them mostly unguarded.” Loki said and Kurse nodded, then continued on, glad for the inside information. Loki wanted revenge against Thor and Odin – he just hoped that he wasn’t getting more than he hoped for. [“Thor: The Dark World Junior Novelization”]

More explosions occurred aboveground and Loki glanced upward. “Don’t you think you ought to look into that?” he said. Thor scowled at his brother, then strode off toward the stairs. Loki watched his brother leave, a hint of guilt in his eyes. What had he done? [“Thor: The Dark World Junior Novelization”]

So okay, if we count the fact he let Thor believe him he died, and that he was Odin, we’ve a total of 2.

Which leads us to the amazing number of 6.

Now okay, betraying 1 time is 1 time too much but this is not a pattern that pervaded his whole life, this is 2 days in which Loki was not in his right mind due to pain (“Thor”) and a day in which he wanted to avoid being jailed for life as Thor has promised him he would be once they were to get back (“Thor: The Dark World”).

But, but, but, didn’t Loki betrayed and attempted to murder Thor PRIOR to “Thor”? And why aren’t I considering “Thor: Ragnarok” at all?

I mean, in addition to Loki betraying Thor for money, there’s this bit in “Thor: Ragnarok”:

Banner: Okay, can I just... A quick FYI, I was just talking to him just a couple minutes ago and he was totally ready to kill any of us.

Valkyrie: He did try to kill me.

Thor: Yes, me too. On many, many occasions. There was one time when we were children, he transformed himself into a snake, and he knows that I love snakes. So, I went to pick up the snake to admire it and he transformed back into himself and he was like, "Yeah, it's me!" And he stabbed me. We were eight at the time. [“Thor – Ragnarok”]

But the problem is to quote Wanda in“WandaVision” when her ‘brother’ talks about their shared childhood, this sort of relationship, well, ‘That’s not exactly how I remember it.’ From the previous movies, interviews, books, novels and extra material, I mean.

But let’s start with order.

So “Thor: Ragnarok”.

Remember Eric Pearson, the guy whose quote I used to start all this?

For start this guy never worked on a script with Thor and Loki previously.

The most he did was to be involved in the “Marvel's The Avengers Prelude: Fury's Big Week” in which Thor and Loki have some cameo appearances.

So let’s hear what he has to say about Thor and Loki’s relation.

“For introductions, working on Thor’s voice was really great just because Hemsworth is great with the script. He actually pulled me aside one morning to talk to me about the Thor and Loki scenes. He pointed out, correctly so, that what I had was retreading a bit of what had already happened in Thor, Thor: The Dark World and The Avengers. We needed to have their relationship exhibit the amount of awareness that it should have after the audience spent so much time with them on screen. So, the Thor and Loki stuff is also some of my favorite.” [A Talk With THOR: RAGNAROK’s Eric Pearson]

So Hemsworth informed his opinion and which opinion has Chris Hemsworth of the whole matter?

Well, his opinion on Thor’s relationship with Loki evolved as time went by… but FIRST let’s focus on how he believed it was their relationship during or prior the “Thor” movie.

“In the very first film Loki and Thor as brothers had a friendship where there was less hatred involved.” [Chris Hemsworth (Thor: The Dark World)]

It’s not terribly explicative but let’s say that they were more or less friends? So his brother wasn’t trying to murder him from childhood? He wasn’t betraying him from childhood?

According to Thom Hiddleston definitely not.

“I think Loki grows up with an older brother who he loves and respects. They play, they banter and they bash each other about, but there is a latent jealousy. Craig Kyle ‐ one of our producers ‐ always used to talk about the analogy of the quarterback and the artist. Thor is the quarterback. He’s a chip off the old block and he’s just like his dad. Loki’s problem is, maybe not his problem, but [that] he’s more drawn to the powers of intellect, magic, and the dark arts. He’s not going to be out in the fields throwing a hammer around. That’s just not where his passion lies. There’s a disconnect with Odin and there’s a disconnect with Thor. He loves them very much, but he’s not just made of the same stalk. In the course of the film there’s a big reveal both for Loki and the audience about the truth of Loki’s true lineage and who his real parents are. I think that begets any jealous that was within him towards Thor develops into a dark, cancerous rage that then becomes a destructive rage.” [“Tom Hiddleston Talks the Love-Hate of Loki and ‘Thor’”]

And the ruining of the coronation? As the movie itself said it was done because he didn’t believe his brother was ready to rule… but let’s also read this bit always from Tom Hiddleston.

“He’s certainly not an anarchist who wants to burn the house down. I think he has an inner conviction. He loves a practical joke, he loves mischief and he loves playing around. He loves starting a bonfire in the next room and hearing people scream, but nobody would be killed.” [“Tom Hiddleston Talks the Love-Hate of Loki and ‘Thor’”]

In short it wasn’t meant to cause any serious harm... same as warning his father was meant to save them. Of the 4 times in “Thor” in which Loki betrays Thor, 2 are not done with evil intentions in mind.

But maybe it’s just Tom Hiddleston?

Nope, we’ve the booklet “Thor: heroes and villains” agree with this.

“Loki is often the voice of reason to Thor’s impulsiveness and is usually relied on to talk his older brother out of sticky situation.” [“Thor: heroes and villains”]

“As Odin’s younger son, Loki has always known the throne of Asgard will never belong to him. He has, however, tried his best to be a good brother to Thor and a son Odin could be proud of.” [“Thor: heroes and villains”]

Then we’ve this in the “Thor” movie:

Sif: He may speak of the good of Asgard, but he's always been jealous of Thor.

Volstagg: We should be grateful to him, he saved our lives.

Hogun: Laufey said there were traitors in the House of Odin. A master of magic could bring three Jotuns into Asgard.

Fandral: Loki's always been one for mischief, but you're talking about something else entirely. [“Thor”]

The group suspects Loki wants to hand Asgard to the Jotuns, but up till the end of the movie Loki will have Asgard’s best interests in mind. His way to pursue them though, by destroying the Jotuns, is beyond ruthless but it’s not traitorous toward Asgard.

Also they’ve nothing against him beyond the fact he was jealous of Thor. They mention no stabbing episode, no murdering attempt no previous betrayal. Loki was jealous and they fear this had caused him to do something extreme. NOW. They’ve nothing they can use against him from the past, their suspects are based on Loki’s jealousy, the fact he’s a wizard and Laufey’s words.

Even the “Thor” novelization, which discusses their relation, doesn’t mention murder attempts prior to the Destroyer thing.

From Thor’s point of view:

“His younger brother has always been something of a mystery to him. While Thor had been eager to spread his wings, fight in battles, and go off on grand adventures, Loki had always been more hesitant. True, he had Thor’s back, but it was often only out of necessity.” [“Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: Thor”]

From Loki’s point of view:

“Why did he always seem to get into trouble because of his older brother? Wasn’t he supposed to be the wiser one? Odin has expressly forbidden that they enter Jotunheim. Yet it wasn��t the first time Thor had done something reckless. And it wouldn’t be the first time Loki was powerless to stop him.” [“Marvel Cinematic Universe Phase One: Thor”]

Loki had Thor’s back, albeit he wasn’t happy about it, Thor is the one who causes troubles, everyone knows and in the novel Loki is regularly sent by Sif and the Warriors Three to calm Thor down and make him think.

Long story short Thor and Loki seemed to be originally planned to have a relationship similar to the one they had in “Thor - Tales of Asgard” direct-to-video animated superhero film which came out in the same year as “Thor”.

So, why somehow in “Thor: Ragnarok” it morphed into the one they have in the comics “Thor: Son of Asgard” (2004) if not worse?

Well, somehow Hemsworth’s feelings shifted along the way between “Thor: The Dark World” and “Thor: Ragnarok”. He was aware of how Loki and Thor’s relationship was portrayed in the comics and this bits fits with how in “Thor: Ragnarok” he just wants to tell Loki he didn’t care anymore.

I mean I can’t say too much but I think in the comic books, you kind of roll your eyes sometimes at the amount of times that they’re back to being best friends so we wanted to keep in mind that he did just try to kill you for the seventh time, and Earth and millions of people and what have you, so… [Chris Hemsworth Talks Expanding Beyond Asgard, Building to THE AVENGERS 2, and More on the Set of THOR: THE DARK WORLD]

Without giving too much away, I didn't want to repeat that relationship either. And Tom felt the same. All of us were like, ‘What can we do again here?’ There’s a bit of reversal as far as... In the first films, a lot of the time you’re seeing Thor going, 'Come back Loki, and da-da-da-da.' [But now] there’s a feeling from Thor that’s just like, 'You know what, kid? Do what you want. You’re a screw up. So whatever. Do your thing.' [Chris Hemsworth ‘Thor: Ragnarok’, Embracing the Comedy, the Thor/Loki Relationship and More]

"Ahhh, he's like the girlfriend you break up with and they don't get the message. Like, 'You're dead, sorry, it's over,' and they're coming round to hang the new drapes. "The most poignant moments (of Thor's movies) have been with Loki." [Avengers 4 Endgame: Is Loki ALIVE? Chris Hemsworth gave a massive hint at London fan event]

Until we get to “Avengers: Infinity War” in which he makes clear he believes Loki fooled him time and time again so that he doesn’t want him back…

While the cast share an obvious camaraderie, a void remains after Tom Hiddleston’s Loki died in Infinity War. Would Hemsworth bring back his troublesome onscreen brother if he could? “No. Why would I do that?” he answers, blankly. “He fooled me time and time again. But on the personal side, I was with Tom since the beginning of this journey and I learned a lot from him.” Hemsworth pauses. “If you’re asking if Thor would bring him back, I think if he could have done he would have. But for me, I don’t know.” [Avengers stars reveal one big downside to the job]

…even if Thor would have (and of course he would have if we’ve to believe Thor’s tears in “Avengers: Infinity War” and his depression in “Avengers: Endgame” are due to Loki’s death and it’s not merely due to how ‘fun’ it is to have a depressed Thor who ends up neglecting his health by drinking too much and getting fat… because being a source of amusement isn’t really a reason why you should introduce a depressed character in a story).

So yes, maybe Pearson didn’t go to the right source of info for Thor and Loki’s relationship.

However, credits when it’s due, the scene about Loki wanting to kill Thor from childhood is not so much due to Pearson or Hemsworth but due to Waititi.

Hewitt: You know, there’s another moment I love, when they have the little huddle about Loki, and he tells the story about how Loki turned into a snake.

Waititi: Yeah, yeah.

Hewitt: And that felt improv’d.

Waititi: Yeah, there was basically- what we did about six different versions of that story, and that was just us standing around, while the cameras are rolling, while I would just feed them lines, and feed Chris ideas for some stories. I was, “Oh, do one, this one, um, say, “I was walking through a field, and I saw a lovely Turkish rug in the middle of the grass, and I love Turkish rugs, so I went to stand on it, and it was Loki, and he turned back into Loki, and it was a hole, and I fell through the hole, and was impaled in the hole, full of spikes”.”

Hewitt: *laughs*

Waititi: As I did all versions of that and I just kept going with- Yeah, the one with the snake just turned out to be the one we used. [Taika Waititi On Screenwriting: An Empire 30th Anniversary Special]

And so how did Waititi envisioned the Thor-Loki dynamics? This is how Waititi describes Thor’s live:

“To be perfectly honest, he’s a rich kid who lives in a castle in outer space. I don’t know any of those people, but I do know people who come from dysfunctional families. He barely talks to his parents — well, his mom’s dead now — his brother is trying to kill him his entire life, and he’s supposed to be king, and he doesn’t want to be a king. A lot of it is also this father-son relationship stuff of him trying to prove himself, or trying to find his own identity, and I really relate to that. My dad was a very big personality in New Zealand and in our area, and I’ve always been trying to do my own thing to separate from him, while at the same time trying to impress him. Which is the story of pretty much all guys, and probably most girls, who are choosing a parent to impress. That was my way in with him.” [“How Taika Waititi Made Thor: Ragnarok So Damn Funny”]

Why Waititi came up with such an idea for their dynamics is up to everyone’s speculation because in itself it’s not important if he actually got told about it by Hemsworth, Pearson or by Brad Winderbaum, who admitted taking inspiration from the comics for “Thor – Ragnarok”…

“I'll tell you the three things we looked at the most. We're pulling a lot stylistically from Kirby [but] we're also looking at the Walt Simonson Ragnarok arc [and]… God of Thunder, the Jason Aaron book.” [How 'Thor: Ragnarok' Honors & Deviates from Its Comics Foundation]

… if this is the result of that 1 short comic he read…

“That’s a thing about me, guys, I did not do my research.” … “I read one issue of Thor as my research. Not even a graphic novel, it was one of the thin-thin ones.” … “And by the end of it, “Hm, well, we’re not doing that”. [Empire Podcast Spoiler Special: Thor: Ragnarok with Taika Waititi]

Waititi wanted to do his own story, not a continuation of the previous movies.

“I was lucky enough they didn’t force me to acknowledge things- there were certain things in the film, like the play, which makes fun of the scene in The Dark World where Loki dies, but there’s a point to that play, sort of to recap what happened, but also to tell the audience, “This is not what you think it’s going to be, this film is not going to be a continuation of that. It’s its own thing, and what you think you expect from this film ends at this play.”” [Empire Podcast Spoiler Special: Thor: Ragnarok with Taika Waititi]

This is not the point where I discuss what I think of this idea of stepping all over the previous movies to create a ‘new Thor’ that the Russo brothers proceeded to dismantle in the next movie.

In 2010 Feige was already on board with the idea ‘the movie comes first’ and the ‘connective tissue’ is fun and very important if you want it to be.

“It's never been done before and that's kind of the spirit everybody's taking it in. The other filmmakers aren't used to getting actors from other movies that other filmmakers have cast, certain plot lines that are connected or certain locations that are connected but I think for the most part, in fact, entirely everyone was on board for it and thinks that its fun. Primarily because we've always remained consistent saying that the movie that we are making comes first. All of the connective tissue, all of that stuff is fun and is going to be very important if you want it to be. If the fans want to look further and find connections than they're there. There are a few big ones obviously, that hopefully the mainstream audience will able to follow as well. But the most important thing and I think the reason that all the filmmakers are on board is that their movies need to stand on their own. They need to have a fresh vision, a unique tone and the fact that they can interconnect if you want to follow those breadcrumbs is a bonus.” [Kevin Fiege Talks Iron Man 2, The Avengers and More]

“Thor – Ragnarok” merely took it to an extreme, retconning a lot from the original to the point some feel “Thor – Ragnarok” is a parallel universe compared to the previous 4 movies, with its own canon.

So when they needed a joke they didn’t bother checking the previous canon, they just needed a joke and so they added that scene, and it somehow got so popular it got referenced in two novels, sorta, even if in both gets ‘adapted’.

Once he was in the room, the servant girl would likely go unnoticed enough to eavesdrop – certainly less noticed than a snake, which had been his initial plan, and which was easier to imitate than an Asgardian. But snakes tended to gather attention – Thor would pick up any serpent to admire it. [“Loki- Where mischief lies”]

In “Loki – Where mischief lies” by Mackenzi Lee the stabbing isn’t included, the book only keep Thor’s fascination for snakes and his habit to pick them up… but the scene couldn’t have happened when they were children as Loki is a teen in the book and has learnt only recently to use shapeshifting magic.

In “The pirate angel, the talking tree and captain rabbit” by Steve Behling the scene is partially retconned as well.

Where in the movie is played as a clear murder attempt in the book we’ve the same story but in a different contest.

“Hey, what did I tell you about insulting our guest?” Rocket scolded, shaking his head. “If anyone’s gonna do any insulting around here, it’s gonna be me.”

Groot looked at Rocket, and enacted an impressive-albeit obnoxious-imitation of the same sneet that Rocket used on Thor just few second earlier.

“I am-“

“Don’t finish that sentence,” Rocket warned.

“Gr-“

“I mean it! You wanna have tablet privileges revocked for a week, you go right ahead and finish that though.”

If Groot had pockets, he would have showed his limbs stubbornly into them, turned around grumbling, and walked away. As it was, he didn’t, so after a moment’s stare-off with Rocket he simply muttered, “I am Groot,” then ambled away.

“He’s in an awkward phase,” Rocket said to Thor by way of explanation, turning his attention to the master control panel.

“Adolescence is never easy,” Thor said looking over Rocket’s shoulder. “I remember when Loki and I were children. Loki transformed himself into a snake, and because I really, really love snake, I went to pick it up. But the moment I did, the snake transformed back into Loki, and then he stabbed me.”

It was at least ten second before Rocket spoke. And when he finally did, he sighed and said, “Why do I have the feeling you tell this story a lot? Like, A LOT.”

Thor smiled wanly. “Maybe a few times,” he acknowledged.

“I bet this Loki gets a big kick out of it every time you tell it,” Rocket said, chuckling.

The thin smile on Thor’s face quickly fell.

“Not anymore,” were the only words Thor could manage before he turned away. [“The pirate angel, the talking tree and captain rabbit”]

While in “Thor: Ragnarok” this story seems to be a proof Loki is an homicidal maniac because it’s compared to him wanting to kill Banner and Valkyrie and therefore, despite the idea this is a joke, make the whole matter a serious business, here Loki’s actions are compared to the ones of a teenager tree wanting to insult someone else and being told not to. It seems one of those stupid things little kids do in anger, or thinking it’s just a game, without really understanding the consequences they could have (=killing someone). Thor seems to almost brag about it, as if it was a funny childhood tale about the idiotic things they did as kids, not a cautious tale against his brother and the risks of trusting him.

It’s still a story that’s clearly out of character for how Loki was meant to be PRIOR to “Thor”, but at least now it’s better inserted in the contest and can fit vaguely more with the previous canon.

But whatever, that’s it.

So, in a way, we’ve two universes, one is the Pre-Ragnarok one, in which Loki prior to Thor loved his brother and had a good relation with him, and the other is the Ragnarok one, in which Loki wanted him dead from childhood.

Both exist.

It’s something a part of the fandom is well aware of, but also something another part of the fandom is ABSOLUTELY unaware of.

I’m not going to tell you which universe you’ve to favour, if the one in which Loki loved Thor or the one in which he wanted him dead, that’s up to your personal preference.

But if you’re among the many who’re still confused about why the fandom has split opinions about the relationship between the brothers… well, that’s a summary of the history behind it all.

Honestly, with the incoming “Thor – Love and Thunder” and “Loki” series, I’ve no idea what will be the future of it all. Waititi will probably want to go back to his “Thor – Ragnarok” continuity… unless he wants to reinvent Thor all over again so we’ll get another additional universe for Strange to enjoy in his upcoming “Doctor Strange in the multiverse of madness”… in addition to the universes created in “Avengers – Endgame” when the characters changed the past and the ones Loki will be creating in “Loki”.

Sorry, Doctor Strange, I guess you’ll have your hands full.

#thor #loki odinson #thor odinson #mcu #loki #9 worlds study

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associatevidiot · 8 years ago

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Things I, a Moderate Liberal, Actually Like Quite a Lot About America

Hello! Moderate liberal here. I happened upon this post detailing a list of things that I, a liberal, supposedly hate about America. So I thought I’d quickly run down it, point by point, to see how it checked out.

1. The U.S. Constitution I love the U.S. Constitution so, so much. The First Amendment in particular. I love the Constitution so much that I even respect the parts that make very little sense to me. (The Second Amendment could, at the very least, have used a decent copy editor. So much confusion just from a couple of awkwardly placed commas.)

2. Liberty Love it!

3. Freedom Same thing as liberty, but hey, I also love it!

4. Success I have no problem with success! Success is great! I wish success for all who strive for it. Now, conflating success with virtue -- saying that you must be a good person just because you succeeded, or a bad person because you didn’t? Not a fan of that.

5. Big Trucks Eh. I don’t see the point of them unless you need one for your job, in which case I’m all for big trucks. But I don’t hate them so much as roll my eyes at them. Also, I think we can all agree that monster trucks are awesome, and the world is a better place for having them.

6. Capitalism It’s got its downsides in its rawest, least fettered form, but it’s also been responsible for unleashing unprecedented human prosperity, and lifting millions out of poverty. And it’s way, way better than, say, the idiocy that is Communism. Capitalism, like pro sports, simply needs good referees.

7. Free Markets I love free markets! I’d like to see more of them. Free markets in health care. Free markets in broadband. Free markets everywhere, without regulations designed to protect established incumbents at the expense of scrappy up-and-comers. I’d like to see free markets filled with companies that work hard every day to do right both by their employees and their customers, lest a competitor swoop in and outperform them.

8. Wealthy People I like wealthy people! Good for them! I don’t begrudge anyone the ability to live in comfort. And, hey, if they’ve got a little money left over to reinvest in the country that helped them become wealthy, that’s great, too!

9. Economic Prosperity You caught me. I actually favor grinding poverty and misery for all! Ha. No. I love economic prosperity. I’d like more of it for myself and, well, for everyone. Which is why I favor things like single-payer health care and investments in education and infrastructure to help said economy prosper.

10. The Rule of Law I love the rule of law! I love the way it protects the powerless from the powerful. I love the way it allows appellate courts to overrule bad laws made by bad or misguided people! I’d like to see the rule of law applied equally to every citizen of our great nation.

11. Traditional Values As a married guy and a father, I have to say, I love devoting my life to the woman I adore with all my heart, and working with her to raise our children to be kind, thoughtful, polite, compassionate, inventive, thrifty, and hard-working.

12. The American Flag Love it. The stars. The stripes. The color scheme. The swell of pride and awe at the thought of all the sacrifices made and all the greatness achieved and all the hope inspired by that banner.

13. The Founding Fathers They certainly weren’t perfect. But they gave us the Constitution, which was pretty amazing. Also, Ben Franklin alone is impossible not to love. Dude took air baths in the nude and slept his way through the wives of the French aristocracy, AND invented bifocals.

14. Guns As a fan of firearm-intensive cinema from John Woo to John Wick, I can confidently say that guns are freaking awesome. In real life, I prefer my guns in the hands of people who’ve been thoroughly trained in how to use them in defense of others, and not, say, indiscriminately placed in the hands of troubled people who might shoot up a movie theater or an elementary school or their families or themselves.

15. Limited Government Depends on your definition of “limited,” but I can certainly see places where too much government is both possible and undesirable. Next!

16. Religious Freedom A Mormon acquaintance of mine recently posted about how her stake had opened their place of worship to Muslims who needed a place to pray because someone who didn’t like religious freedom had burned down their mosque. That story choked me up. I love religious freedom, and the moment someone proposes a law to dictate what you can and can’t say or do in church, I’ll be right there to oppose it.

17. Homeschooling Eh. Doesn’t seem necessary to me, but hey, it’s a free country.

18. Private Schools See No. 17.

19. Christian Schools See No. 17. Plus, if your faith is so strong that you need to shield it from the outside world wherever possible, maybe your faith is not that strong?

20. Entrepreneurs Steve Jobs, whatever his failings, is a hero of mine. Ditto Jim Sinegal, founder of Costco, and Warren Buffett, head of Berkshire Hathaway. I love people who take risks, start businesses, and create jobs.

21. Ronald Reagan Ronald Reagan is, alas, kind of a dirtbag. The Screen Actors Guild elected him to lead them, and he promptly sold them out to get a sweetheart deal for himself. Then he spent the Blacklist era casually tossing his professional rivals to the Congressional wolves to further his own career. That said, he had the guts to advocate for reasonable gun control after being shot, and he really got the danger of nuclear war and worked hard to prevent it. For that especially, I’ll always be grateful to him.

22. Donald Trump Guilty as charged. Mostly because Trump has a demonstrated history of treating other people horribly. But you can’t get that messed up without a really awful childhood, so deep down, I just sort of feel sorry for him. He doesn’t seem like a truly happy person. I wonder if he ever got down on the floor and played with any of his kids when they were little. I really hope he did.

23. Mike Pence Guilty as charged, but again, mostly because Pence has a documented history of not taking good care of the people he was elected to serve. But that said, I hope Mike Pence lives a long, happy, and prosperous life! I just hope he does so far from any position of political power.

24. Country Music Johnny Cash is a freaking genius. June Carter Cash is amazing. Patsy Cline is gorgeous. Darius Rucker has an amazing voice. Garth Brooks’ “We Shall Be Free” gives me a lump in my throat every. Dang. Time. Hank Williams was awesome. I could go on.

25. Rush Limbaugh That poor, sad man.

26. The Tea Party I may disagree with them, but hey, good on them for engaging in democracy! That’s the way to do it.

27. Lower Taxes I would love lower taxes. I just don’t want anyone else to suffer so that I can have more money.

28. Old-Fashioned Light Bulbs Actually, yeah, I do hate these! Why would anyone want to waste money on something designed to break way, way sooner than it needs to?

29. Jesus The idea that one man would lay down his life to redeem the sins of all mankind awes me to my core, and inspires me to try to lead a more Christlike life myself. I wish everyone acted more like Jesus!

30. The Bible There’s some pretty good stuff in there! Definitely don’t hate it.

31. The Christian Faith I was married in a Baptist church by a Methodist minister who is, no foolin’, one of the best people I know. Christians can be really great people, and any faith that inspires them to be that way is A-OK in my book.

32. The Drudge Report Well, OK, I’m not a fan, but I also roll my eyes at the Huffington Post, so...

33. John Wayne I can’t recall a more thrilling introduction to a character than the way the camera swoops across the landscape to reveal young John Wayne in “Stagecoach.” And “The Searchers” is just fantastic. Like Vin Diesel, Wayne simultaneously manages to be a kind of bad actor and a really good actor, and I love him for that.

34. Alex Jones ... Yeah, guilty as charged. Mostly because he claims murdered kids were fake actors. That’s not cool, man! I know you’re a red-faced amalgam of beef sweats and conspiracy theories, but have a little decency.

35. NASCAR ... They just go around in a circle! Over and over and over!

36. Tupperware Why would anyone hate Tupperware? It’s great!

37. Big Cheeseburgers I will fistfight anyone who maligns big cheeseburgers. They’re one of my favorite food groups.

38. Football Three words: “Friday Night Lights.” So good.

39. Clint Eastwood If for nothing else, I’d love Clint Eastwood for “Unforgiven.”

40. The Army

41. The Navy

42. The Marines

43. The Air Force I’m the very proud son, brother, and grandson of Air Force vets. My grandfathers flew with bomber crews in WWII and Korea. My dad was a fighter pilot for 30 years. I grew up on Air Force bases with the Sound of Freedom overhead. If you say I hate the Air Force, you and I are going to have words. I love the other branches of the service only slightly less. (: Also, does this mean liberals love the Coast Guard? Because those guys are great.

44. Ron Paul Eh. I don’t think he means any harm.

45. Rand Paul Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, especially about government overreach in regard to the surveillance state.

46. Marriage

47. Family

48. Babies For the above three, please see answer 11. Also, don’t these kind of overlap with “traditional values”?

49. Wal-Mart Every Wal-Mart cashier I’ve ever spoken to has a story that will break your heart. Every single one. Every time.

50. Flag Pins I have no problem with wearing the flag, as long as you act in ways that honor it.

51. Steakhouses For my bachelor party, I went to a steakhouse and ate a tomahawk ribeye the size of my head. Don’t you dare tell me I hate steakhouses. I’m from Texas. Them’s fightin’ words.

52. Chuck Norris Seems OK to me.

53. Bottled Water I drink it all the time!

54. George Washington Owning slaves is about the only blemish I can think of for this otherwise sterling example of humanity. And he was at least less of a jerk about that than most people at the time. On the whole, Washington was a great man who truly loved his country and did right by it.

55. The 1st Amendment

56. The 2nd Amendment

57. The 10th Amendment We have already established that I love the Constitution. All of it. Even the parts I disagree with.

58. The Pledge of Allegiance Eh. It’s kinda silly when you learn the history behind it, but it does no harm, and I like the idea of having shared cultural touchstones that unite us as Americans.

59. McDonald’s I applaud their clean restrooms and tasty smoothies.

60. Coca-Cola Not my favorite, but I don’t hate it.

61. Fried Food Fried okra is perhaps the best possible form of any vegetable.

62. Muscle Cars I’ve seen all but one of the “Fast & Furious” movies. Muscle cars are awesome.

63. Charlie Daniels I would prefer not to live in a world that didn’t have “The Devil Went Down to Georgia.” Come on, that song is great.

64. Dolly Parton Who hates Dolly Parton? Who could possibly hate Dolly Parton? She’s great.

65. Duck Dynasty Eh. Kinda dumb idea for the TV show, but hey, good on those folks for starting a successful business and enjoying its benefits.

66. Johnny Cash We have previously discussed this.

67. Sarah Palin I’m very happy that Sarah Palin can live her life in freedom and ease, far from the levers of power. I wish her and her family nothing but the best.

68. Cheesesteaks Again, who could possibly hate cheesesteaks? They have meat! And cheese! And bread!

69. Sean Hannity ... yeah, guilty as charged.

70. Rodeos They’re pretty fun! And man, it takes a LOT of skill and hard work to be good enough to compete in one.

71. Cadillacs What am I supposed to hate?

72. Barbie Dolls Shrug.

73. Ted Cruz ... Okay, for real now, does anyone like Ted Cruz? I mean, John Boehner called him “Lucifer in the flesh.”

74. Fiscal Sanity I love fiscal sanity so much. I’d like to see more of it. I try to practice it in my own life and budget.

75. Charlton Heston Ben-Hur and Touch of Evil exist. Your argument that I hate Charlton Heston is invalid.

76. Israel I’m of Jewish descent, and I’ve seen pictures of Dachau just after it was liberated. Nope. Don’t hate Israel.

77. Benjamin Netanyahu Don’t hate the guy, but fine, I dislike him -- mostly because I think he’s bad for Israel.

78. Miners Brave, hardworking folks doing an awful job to dig up stuff we need? Good on them.

79. Loggers As long as they plant more trees than they cut down, we’re cool. People need wood. I get it.

80. The Coal Industry The folks who dig coal out of the ground? Nope. The folks who profit off their misery while cutting corners on their safety? Kinda, yeah.

81. National Sovereignty In order to hate this, I would have to fully understand what it implies.

82. National Borders Well, I mean, I’m not dying to return to the age of the supercontinent Pangea, so no, I don’t hate borders.

83. Uncle Sam Love him.

84. The Washington Redskins The name, yes. The actual players, no. Lotta Redskins fans among my in-laws. I respect that!

85. Small Businesses Love ‘em. Want to do more to help them thrive.

86. Self-Employment My brother’s self-employed. I love my brother. Ergo, I love self-employment.

87. Harley-Davidson Motorcycles They’re pretty cool. And made in the USA. Don’t hate ‘em.

88. Military Veterans Please see 43 above,

89. The Phrase “Islamic Terror” Well, yes, but only because it makes life more dangerous for the soldiers trying to protect us from radical Islamists like ISIS.

90. Big Families Eh, it’s a free country. They can do what they like!

91. The Bible Belt Is this even a thing anymore? Whatever. Don’t hate it. Free country.

92. The Creation Museum Mostly I just think this is kinda dumb. But then, I think ignoring science gives God and his majesty short shrift.

93. The 10 Commandments I love ‘em! Especially “thou shalt not kill” and “thou shalt not bear false witness.”

94. Anyone That Is Pro-Life I have dear family friends who are pro-life. They adopted two kids and gave them a fantastic, loving home, and they volunteer to help give other babies that same chance. I couldn’t be prouder of them.

95. Anyone Who Disagrees With Them See above. Also, I’ve had some great discussions with people who disagree with me on Facebook. If you really listen to people without trying to judge them or change their minds, you can learn a lot!

96. Hard Work It’s not, you know, always fun, but it’s definitely a good thing!

97. Patriotism I refer you to the Sound of Freedom above.

98. Winning I like winning! It’s fun! I just think when winning becomes your highest goal, you’ve lost sight of more important things.

99. The Truth I went to journalism school. The truth is my religion.

100. The American People How could I hate myself? I’m an American person, too! In fact, last I checked, 53% of the American people either were liberals or were willing to vote for one to be President. We are large. We contain multitudes. And that’s beautiful.

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