#i don't have to do as many queer romance books suggestion as one might think

[elletromil]

So I do a lot of book suggestion with my public libraries because, well, I'm a big reader and I can't buy all of the books, no matter how much i might want to.

Anyway, it always completely baffles me when, with series - especially when its in ebook form where you can see fairly easily on Libby whether or not there is another installment after the one you're currently reading - *I* have to suggest the next book for it to be picked up.

And not in a 'why is the librarian not buying it' way, but rather in a 'why are people not asking for it????'

For exemple, I've been reading a series of like 5-6 books total. I suggested my library get the first ebook, suggestion got accepted, i read the book and liked it well enough. About 10-ish people were in the hold queue. Of course that doesn't mean they actually liked it but whatever.

I suggested the second book, and because of the nature of ebooks reservation, some people got to read it before me. Ok fine. I read it, about 6-7 people are on the hold queue when i finish it.

Guess what? No one asked for the third book.

For EVERY book in the series, i had to ask for the next one and i'm just...

For people to read it before me, they had to have an alert on the book so they would know when it becomes available at once. Cuz obviously I have those alerts, but even just checking 5 minutes after the notification, there would be at least 2-3 people with a hold on the book already.

And its not even a 'oh, the library will get the ebooks at a certain time every months/few months so that's why it wasn't available yet'

I finished the second to last book of the series recently. It had been available since like october-ish. I had actually started back then, but since I'm not a fan of reading ebooks, I couldnt finish the book in time, so into the hold queue I went.

I know that public library. I know how often they get their ebook. If anyone had asked for the last book, it would be available already.

It wasn't.

Do people not know they can suggest books? Is the process too obscure for them?

Anyway, there is no point to this post except to say, my good peeps, you can make books (or dvds or games or whatever kind of item your public library offer) suggestion! You usually can do it online!

If you can't find where exactly, usually just googling 'purchase suggestion' or 'reccomand a title' with the name of your public library will get you to the right page

And if you're still not sure, you should ask your librarian, they'll be happy to tell you how!

[avelera]

It makes me sad when I see posts by people who are enjoying the Interview with the Vampire show but say they've decided not to even try to read the books.

To be clear, it's fine to just not want to read the books, there's plenty of reasons the books might not be everyone's bag, and one reason is that people might just want to enjoy the show without spoilers or the source material muddling the experience.

But I just want to clarify a few points that people might be hung up on with regards to reading the books in case they've decided not to on false premises:

Anne Rice was not homophobic or otherwise anti-sex or against queer relationships for her characters - those are lies, lies, and damned lies. Anne Rice was a queer writer before being queer-- much less writing about it--was cool (to say the least). She more or less defined herself as nonbinary before there was terminology for it, her son is gay, and she left the Catholic Church the second time because they wouldn't accept him (even though the Catholic Church had basically become her life at that point after her husband died, which is a long complicated story). She also wrote tons of erotica, specifically bdsm erotica, which was also very queer. She would not be horrified by the queerness of the show.

Anne Rice was anti-fanfic - Yes, she was. Yes, she was one of the most aggressive authors against fanfic (though she softened later). But just to be clear, she had a legal reason for it. I was one of the people most heartbroken in the early '00s by her aggressive take down of fanfic over the years but even then, I always understood why she did it, she reasonably believed she had to be aggressive in order to defend her copyright. You can dislike her for it but she wasn't just hating on fanfic for the sake of it, the early internet was extremely muddy when it came to the legality around fanfic and copyright and as an early adopter of the internet, she was very concerned on that front specifically.

The books are not poorly written/not fun to read - Look, your mileage may obviously vary, and many have found flaws in her writing (IWTV in particular is probably the slowest read of the bunch) but Anne Rice wasn't a NYT Bestseller on basically every single one of her books for no reason. Her style is easy to read, fun, engaging, and often darkly beautiful and deeply empathetic. She basically defined the modern vampire genre and modern supernatural gothic romance for the last 50 years, I mean she dominated the genre. Don't take an out of context excerpt of the opening of The Vampire Lestat sounding like "My Immortal" as an indication of anything. (The whole point of that intro is that Lestat is supposed to sound like a self-obsessed drama queen in the opening pages, that's the conceit of the book and introduces him as a self-centered unreliable narrator, which she then plays with to great effect. It's actually rather deftly handled how she introduced Lestat as a POV character with that introduction. As a writer, I will defend that introduction as actually genius.)

Anne Rice wasn't perfect, to say the least. And the books might not be everyone's cup of tea, she was often dealing with transgressive topics and probably held many ideas or presented many concepts decades ago that would be side-eyed today.

But they're bestsellers for a reason and she's an era-defining author for a reason. The show is doing some interesting stuff with modernizing and deconstructing the books but the rich material they have to do it with comes from the books.

At the very least, I suggest trying out "The Vampire Lestat" and then "Queen of the Damned" which I think are two of her best and will go a long way to informing how audiences view the show and what's coming next.

[ladygrey412]

Alright I'm going to add my extremely small list. Okay so that was a lie. 16 is not a small list. Some of these are romance, some of these just have really good polyam representation, and I added a 3rd section of honorable mentions down at the bottom which are books that I think do a really good job at not making monogamous relationships miserable to read. A lot of these are sci-fi or fantasy and I don't know if that is more a "me problem" or plus for sci-fi.

✨✨First up Monogamy is Dumb ✨✨

1)Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao Classic story of boy loves girl, girl loves different boy, first boy goes 👀. (Triangles are the strongest shape). Oh and don't forget the heavy sci-fi and giant Mecha. YA novel with enough intrigue for everyone. Rep: Disability

2) The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemison. Not a romance novel but. It's big on digging into queerness and identity including a polyam relationship. Heavy fantasy and apocalypse vibes with an older MC. Rep: Disability, Trans

3) Long Way to a Small Angry Planet (Wayfarer Series) by Becky Chambers. Also not a romance but it has a main sapphic romance and the alien partner is from a species that is exclusively polyam. It is all about the value of friendships and is quiet literally about how the real treasure is the friends we made along the way. Rep: Autism

3) Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke. (Suggested by the Fiancee). "He is Poly and gay*. You find it everywhere in his books if you know where to look." *Sorry he's not technically gay because according to him that would mean straight people would have to exist.

4) Hunger Pangs by Joy Demorra. Good ol' classic vampire falls in love with a werewolf and they can't help but fall for a mysterious woman. This gets to sit here because it has a non spicy version but... If you want the spice it comes with all the fun of Vampires and BDSM. Rep: Disability, BDSM

🔥🔥🔥 Now for the polyamorous spice. 🔥🔥🔥

6) Sex Wizards Series by Alethea Faust. WHAT. I felt like i should start with the heavy BDSM sex magic book if I'm talking spice. No but seriously some of the best representation of BDSM and healthy polyam in many different ways. And plot somehow. Rep: Non-Binary, Asexual, Disability, Heavy BDSM

7) Rescued my Married Monster Hunters by Ennis Rook Bashe. What if you are a poor monster trying to be human and a sweet couple can't stop doting on you. No one would blame a lil monster for falling for that. Rep: Trans, Disability

8) Pack Saint Clair Series by Thora Woods. Reverse Harem gets much more interesting when the people the MC is getting involved with are an established Polyam Pack (ABO style). Sometimes falling in love with one person means you end up falling for 4. Rep: Mild BDSM, Trauma Recovery

9) Drag Me Up by R.M. Virtues. What if Hades/Persephone was healthy and T4T. Super sweet and spicy romance about defying expectations. Rep: Trans, Mild BDSM

10) In the Court of the Nameless Queen by Natalie Ironsides. A bunch of short stories around a Giant Spider queen and the many people who love her. Literally this is a bunch of sapphic porn about a clan of warrior women. It slaps Rep: Trans, Heavy Kink and BDSM

11) The Strongest Shape by Tessa Cardenas. This is in my liked books. And i distinctly remember loving the way it dealt with a new person entering a more established pair. I can not remember anything else besides it was spicy and gay.

Honorable Mentions

These books explore relationships in super queer and non-traditional ways. But might not be considered "polyamory"

12) Psalm for the Wild Built (and the Monk and Robot series) by Becky Chambers. Toe to Tip that's a QPR. It's just a really wholesome book about a robot and a human meeting. Lots of passive polyamory here too (expecially in the second book). To say the least Becky Chambers is great. Rep: Non-Binary, Robots (it/its), Anxiety

13) The City we Became by N.K. Jemison While I am expounding great authors I have to include Jemison's other book which is really all about queer friendship and the importance of have friends. On the backdrop of people becoming the city and fighting Eldritch Monsters Rep: Trans, Asexual Characters

14) The Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells. Super casual background polyamory by murderbot's humans but it's not into any of that stuff. It is here to cause problems and make friends though. Rep: Robot (it/its), Trauma Recovery, Asexual, Autism

15) The Tarot Sequence by K.D. Edwards. I'm putting this here because it's currently just MLM but there are these big hints being dropped for a Triad. Lots of fun around being shoved into a position of power before you are ready and only having your friends at your back. Rep: Disability, Trauma Recovery

16) Black Leopard Red Wolf by Marlon James. This book is literally indescribable but it tackles gender, relationships and African History in such a nice package I can't help but add it. Rep: Genderqueer/Non-Binary

17) Amberlough by Lara Elena Donnelly. No technical polyamory but it does such a beautiful job mixing the complex nature of being in love with the literal collapse of free government. It also has older MCs and a whole ton of Drama.

Do you have any book recommendations with poly relationships? Preferably fiction. I’ve been avoiding reading romance recently because everything is based on monogamous relationships and it gets tiring after a while.

I recommend checking the notes on this post where someone else asked. There are a lot of things recommended by others that I haven't gotten around to reading. 📖 I totally feel you with the mono romances being a drag sometimes. Its real bad when jealousy is a major point :/

[absolutebl]

I’ve got some friends coming over next weekend and they have never seen a single BL but want to watch an episode… I’d like to show them a Thai BL but it will have to be only the first episode (unless they get sucked in, ha ha!)

What do you think would be a good first episode - I’m thinking maybe Bad Buddy, 2gether or Cutie Pie?

Good First Episode Thai BLs - for non-BL watchers

Hum well I don't know your friends and their taste, that makes a difference. Are they geeky? Are they more mainstream romance types?

Recommending a BL is like recommending a book outside of someone’s preferred reading genre, you gotta give them an entry point. Pick the BL that suits their existing taste the most. So if they like suspense/crime thrillers then Not Me, 3 Will Be Free, Long Time No See, or Manner of Death. That kind of thing. 

But, first off...

Do not do 2gether. Green’s shrieking and the companion serious punching down humor of those first eps make this show a really really hard buy in. It’s ANNOYING AF. I know because it took me 3 tries to make it through the first 1/3 of that show, and I LIKE BL. 

Cutie Pie has SUCH an absurd premise than unless your friends are fans of classic romance with strong tropes, maybe not that one either. 

Ones that I Suggest - based on first episode ALONE 

honestly first eps are not Thai BLs strong point, sigh, so I struggled with this one  

Bad Buddy - I was skeptical going in and absolutely instantly sold on the first ep. I think this is probubly my top choice. 

Love By Chance - AePete’s meet cute is one of the best ever put on screen, but there is Pond and the masterbation, but also AEPETE! They are just so genuine and soft with each other, its hard not to love them they moment they meet. But then if your friends want to keep watching, you got a lot of ‘splain to do. 

2 Moons 2 - an odd choice perhaps, but such a classic, that first ep just sets EVERYTHING up so well. Also it’s like prime Thai style BL. But, another one where, because of the ending it’s kinda not the best if they do want to keep watching. 

Oxygen - the first ep is a little slow going but I found it both addictive and comforting, at the time it was airing I must have rewatched it half a dozen times, but the rest of the show is also kinda slow. 

I’d consider My Ride too, it is a pulp, but it’s also sweet, but it’s also not really a  typical BL. 

If they have no triggers:

Until We Meet Again - it’s rough but that first ep will absolutely SUCK you in, it might set narrative expectations of the genre too high tho

A Tale of Thousand Stars - same thing as above, but the cast and premise carries quite a bit, and this is one where if they get into it there’s no flagging or issues or ANYTHING, it’s a damn good romance that just happens to be BL 

SOTUS - yeah yeah but the first ep is glorious and very engaging, and I don’t have issues with this series like many others do 

HOWEVER 

The Best 1st Episode BLs 

Honestly, for a pure laymen, knowing nothing else about these strangers, I would actually avoid Thai BL entirely. 

I’d put on Semantic Error. I feel safe showing pretty much anyone this show. And it’s a perfect introduction to the genre. 

I might reach for Restart After Come Back Home for someone into cinema. 

If they are geeky (SF/F types) then Cherry Magic or maybe even Color Rush. 

If they are big Kdrama and/or YA fans? Light On Me. 

If they like indie or modern queer cinema then Gameboys or See You After Quarantine? 

I might even go for a Strongberry short if I just wanted to give a genre sample, like A First Love Story or Some More. 

It’s me, so with a hair warning, I’m also likely to pop on Seven Days. Especially with someone familiar with anime or Japan’s style in general. 

Okay I hope this helps! 

(source) 

[mostly-mundane-atla]

i apologize if you've already answered something like this before, but i've seen a lot of fanfics with nonbinary sokka, and i was thinking of writing sokka into an atla au of a book as a character who is two-spirit. its my understanding that two-spirit isn't the same thing as nonbinary, transgender, or any other LGBT identity, and that it has a lot more to do with a spiritual connection, but i might be wrong about that. what i do know is this particular character in this book is winkte, which is Lakota, which isn't an inspiration for the water tribes as far as i'm aware.

i thought that two-spirit was established as a pan-indian term to replace all the different similar terms in the many different languages spoken by indigenous people across the united states and canada (or maybe just canada?), but i'm not sure if that would be what sokka, or any other Inupiaq-based character, would use to describe their identity. is there any term specific to Inupiat similar/equivalent to this that would be more appropriate to use?

You're in luck as being not only Inupiaq but also nonbinary and figuring out what that means culturally, I have a lot of personal experience on the matter!

So first: two-spirit is a pan-indigenous term, chosen by Native folks because the official term used by white academics (before two-spirit was coined) was an old french word that referred to male sex workers and everyone wanted something a little less blatantly disrespectful. It's used as an umbrella term for genders, gender expressions, and even variations on biological sex experienced in many indigenous cultures that don't neatly fit into the male/female binary that many European cultures believe in and uphold today. It's not necessarily a catch-all term for one specific concept found in all these cultures, but rather for a bunch of concepts classified together because they don't fit into the gender binary colonizers understood. You may have seen people saying you shouldn't refer to two-spirit genders as nonbinary and this is why. These genders are the result of cultures that didn't have a gender binary. The binary was a later addition imposed upon them by land hungry imperialists and missionaries who threatened nonbelievers with hellfire.

As for Inupiaq two-spirit identities, I know there is one term used by the Inuit, sipiniq, but i've only ever found it in Canadian sources so I don't know how widespread it is or if it was there in Alaska before they split and went east way back in the day. I do know it was used to refer to intersex people and the only concern with intersex genitalia seemed to be over the urinary tract being blocked. I've read from some interviews with elders where they said it was usually girls, or people who would have otherwise been considered typical girls, who were sipiniq, and that sometimes you couldn't tell until the child was older and their behavior changed from what you would expect (suggesting there may have been an aspect of gender and gender expression to it as well). I've also read elsewhere that being a sipiniq was more an addition than an entire stand alone identity, and they usually lived as their assigned gender at birth. Keep in mind that all this info is pretty scattered and difficult to cross reference, so i'd take this with a grain of salt.

Okay, onto Inupiaq specific stuff i've learned from family and reconnecting!

So, what does queerness look like in Inupiaq culture? Well, we don't entirely know, for a few reasons. Not much energy went into understanding our cultures as, say, the ancient Greeks and Egyptians for example until we had been pretty thoroughly assimilated. It's not talked about much, but romance in general isn't talked about much either, while a marriage was first and foremost for the purpose of having kids and dividing survival work into what can be done with a baby on your back and what can be done without. Polyandrous marriages were definitely a thing, and considering a lot of environmental and cultural factors, were often more viable than polygynous marriages, but also aren't mentioned much these days. The lack of queerness talked about in cultural circles could be the influence of the church, or maybe the idea that frivolities like chasing love weren't as important as starting your own family and caring for your aging parents is deeply ingrained into the culture. Maybe it's somewhere between.

Either way, I think just about every queer person has eventually figured out that just because it isn't mentioned or isn't considered the norm, doesn't mean it never happens. This is also a culture where people had to maintain deep friendships with others of the same sex and around the same age for allies in survival against the elements and human enemies. These friendships are always described as having a certain intimacy that allows trust and a degree of tenderness. Not to mention a man could have more than one wife or a woman could have more than one husband, and the nature of their contributions to the household meant they would spend a lot of time away from the shared spouse and with each other. This brings me to another aspect that doesn't exactly help figuring out cultural norms for feelings or relationships. We didn't have a written language until, about, the 1940s and it wasn't standardized until the 1980s. That means no private diary entries dripping with yearning or love letters of smouldering passion, which are the typical go-to evidence for relationships and attraction in cultures that do have a written language. Whether a man wished he could marry this man he was friends with since childhood more than the most desired woman in the village, or what goings-on two co-wives found themselves in between chores, we may never know.

So when it comes to something as personal as gender, which arguably involves way fewer people than sexual or romantic orientation, it can be a little difficult to figure out how many people felt that their bodies got something wrong or didn't fit their understanding of themselves. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that we very literally don't have a record of it.

So, what does gender look like in Inupiaq culture?

I've often said that the Inupiat leaned pratriarchal rather than stating that they were patriarchal. While patriarchy isn't an inaccurate term, people rarely hear it and imagine cultures where women could have multiple husbands, could divorce their husbands and be welcomed back to their parents' homes, could be the ones to decide whether their sons were ready to marry, etc. Men were by default considered head of the household, but only an idiot would deny the value of a woman with all her skills. The kind of skills men and women were expected to have weren't as strictly divided as one may think. Men were expected to have some proficiency in sewing and cooking, and women were expected to be able to fish, trap, and hunt small game, even if these weren't specialties. In general, gender roles were less about who dominated than we are used to thinking, and more about interdependence and reciprocity.

One thing I think might get to the meat of Inupiaq beliefs about gender as its own concept divorced from biological sex is the belief in reincarnation through renaming. Souls are attached to names, and in giving a baby the name of a dead loved one (i don't think they have to be blood related but often are) as is tradition, the soul lives on through the baby. People refer to that kid as if they were the one they were named after and it's said that the kid would remember things from this past life. But here's the thing: you didn't have to be named after someone of the same assigned gender at birth as you. You could be assigned male at birth, six feet tall, the luckiest at hunting bears, with ivory labrets and hair that was never braided, and that won't stop you from someone your parents' age calling you grandma if you were named after their grandmother. In our current assimilated and Christianized version of the culture, this has become the practice of Eskimo names, which are separate from one's official name on their birth certificate.

If this aforementioned assigned male person found that being called grandma was a source of comfort that made them feel more at ease, if one thing they remembered from being this woman was a feeling that they should be with the women, would that not be comparable to a trans woman's experience? To reiterate an earlier point, we don't have letters or diary entries from these pre-assimilation times. We may never know how many people felt this way. Combine that with the idea that names are inherent to who you are and the fact pronouns are entirely ungendered in all Inupiaq dialects, and I think the trans experience would look and feel very different within this culture. I can't definitively say it would be easier to live and be perceived as a man but feel as a woman, or vice versa, in this culture but I don't think it would be the same as in the current Euro-American cultures we're used to.

When I think about my identity and what it means, i find something very affirming in how my Eskimo name would have been given to boys and girls. By traditional cultural belief, that would mean I lived so many lives as so many different people, male and female, masculine and feminine. I could have been a warrior, a housewife, a keen-eyed berrypicker, an umialik maybe, I could have carved beautiful ivory pieces, been the best dancer, worn down my teeth chewing skins for sewing, and maybe, sometime in the 1960s, gasped at the scandalous implications of red nail polish.

So, in truth, I don't know if a nonbinary Inupiaq Sokka would understand themself as any gender specific Inupiaq culture, but I think they might have a unique relationship to the concept of gender from knowing the beliefs of the culture. That the masculine and the feminine need and support each other, that most people will have a little bit of both within them, that the Inupiat didn't even have separate words for "he" and "she" and the singular they. I know it's helped me understand and accept myself as a nonbinary Inupiaq.

[ariyadaivaris]

two questions: 1) why is kenny a bad person? be specific if you can, I honestly want to understand. 2) what's the better lgbt+ representation you mentioned in your post? Not trying to be mean I'm really and truly ignorant about these things and you seem like you know something. Help me understand so I don't support bad people/content.

uhhh kenny isn’t GREAT, i know that that varies from person to person but i personally don’t think he’s a good dude. back when he first won the iwgp heavyweight championship off of kazu, he had an interview where he said that the “local” (japanese) talent were complacent and lazy and the gaijin wrestlers (the only ones he mentioned being white, ofc) were just hungrier and wanted it more and people like naito and evil were very rightfully pissed off. (also kazu and misu had a match like a week later in the middle of a monsoon while kenneth was off who KNOWS where so like #Whatever) 

he also booked a convicted sex offender/p*do for an event? on the preshow? i think he also used his ring and then claimed he didn’t know abt the dude when he’d associated with him before and also when people were pissed about it he responded VERY sanctimoniously bemoaning how cruel people were to judge him for this lmao. (the dude’s name is chasyn rance if you wanna...go verify stuff i really dont wanna delve into. all that on here its a sensitive topic) he’s also best buds with michael elgin whos an abuser so thats neat

also like a few weeks ago tanahashi criticized kenneth on a podcast and said that his matches were all flash and no substance and you could just as easily skip to the last five minutes because thats where ALL the story is, which, i mean, disclaimer i agree with! kenneth heard this and freaked OUT, which is WEIRD because tana has a history of giving his coworkers constructive criticism and advice bc he’s a veteran and its like he’s trying to help people improve and not be complacent??? weird! anyway kenneth started insulting everything from tana’s hair to his wrestling and its just generally REALLY poor form and behavior

idk it varies depending on who you ask and im not...the best memory? sammy hiromutakahashl and ava purplesandgolds both do INCREDIBLY valid work pointing and laughing at kenny and if you delve into their archives you could probably find more in-depth and like, credible criticism of him? but tldr he can eat a pile of dirty socks

AS FOR OTHER WRESTLERS YOU CAN SUPPORT!!!!!!!!

charlie morgan is a british wrestler and a lesbian and she’s very very butch and very very cool!!!!!!! she’s the current ace of pro wrestling eve and its rightfully earned, she also wrestles in progress and she has like, THE most incredible moonsault. also this which kicks ASS

ddtpro (and tokyo joshi pro) is at the very least friendly to The Gays!! one of the co-founders, dino danshoko, is a gay man and his gimmick is HMMMM A LITTLE FLAMBOYANT AND UNCOMFY TO WATCH AT TIMES but coming from a man who is very explicitly incorporating his gayness into his wrestling and yknow what...thats valid. also i think he became champ recently FUCK yeah dude gay RIGHTS

a wrestler named asuka has wrestled for ddtpro to boot, but she mainly works in wave, and she’s trans! you can find an interview she did with lgbter over here! also she and daisuke sasaki had a very cute romance arc for a bit it was excellent

dragon gate has the ICONIC tribe vanguard, and i know they’ve got several queer wrestlers in their ranks that i unfortunately don’t know TOO well bc i dont watch dragon gate, but i DO know yosuke santa maria is VERY cool and i love her and she jumps real good

CANDY LEE!!!!!!!! SHE’S THE CURRENT IPW WOMEN’S CHAMPION AND I WOULD LAY IT ALL ON THE LINE FOR HER her twitter is very very good go look at it and love her and support her

progress wrestling in general is usually PRETTY good re: Ze Gays!! besides charlie morgan, killer kelly and laura di matteo also wrestle there (UGH we love iconic lesbians), and so does KNOWN light of my life and yours too probably jack sexsmith, THE pansexual phenomenon. sexy starr is canonically a thing. we LOVE romance and we love queer romances being the heart of goodness and honesty and bravery. PLEASE support my boys. i love them so much

ive got a bad memory and also limited knowledge of things but randy myers? i believe? is very cool and weird and talented and he sings sometimes and yknow what that is? valid

sadly i don’t know many lgbtq+ luchadors off the top of my head because im a fool and a coward tumblr user luchagoth might have more valuable input on that than i do!!! ^^;

i know this is long and winding and poorly worded but i hope this can be like, at least an...introduction? an IDEA of where to go? there are so many more spaces that don’t throw you just table scraps or suggestions of support, there’s the A Matter Of Pride events that you can find on full in youtube, there are so many promotions and wrestlers out there that are good and i hope you can find folks you like and wanna support!!!

im sorry this is a weird bad post i hope i could help even a bit, thank you for being patient with me and for being curious in the first place, whatever you decide to do from here is your choice but whatever choice that is i hope you find happiness and peace in it!!

[groupkiller]

it's not that people don't see it. i LOVE johnlock, i check the tag! i see the content, i didn't think it'd happen bc the series made it clear those dialogues were nothing but a joke. at the beginning i was like hmm? but then it made me angry as fuck that they were playing it for the laughs, since it was obvious it didn't mean they'd be endgame. be angry at the writers for turning queerness into a joke. imo they did not queerbait: they made fun of queerness (also angry at what they did to irene)

____________________________________________________________I am actually curious as to how many people did see the romantic “sub” plot :) I know the johnlockers saw it of course. But how many of the casuals saw it? Maybe quite a lot saw the romance, but like you didn’t think it would happen.And I am sure a lot of people didn’t want it to happen(Which may or may not have been different, if either John or Sherlock had been a girl, and it had been the classic hetero normative boy-meets-girl).And I understand people who want a friendship story.

Personally I love friendship stories. I am a bit tired of the “boy-meets-girl” story, because I have seen it so many times. If creators can put a new spin on it, it’s fine. And it’s not like I didn’t cry by the end of Titanic and Forrest Gump. I like a good romance if I like the characters and the foreshadowing is good. I just often think friendship stories are more interesting, because I see fewer of them. (And because I can ship the bromances ^_~)So I don’t want to hate on the people who really wanted a friendship Sherlock story. 

I might go into a lengthy discussion with people who claim, I am mad for seeing a romance, but luckily I haven’t had to deal with many of those people :)And I would probably also shake my head in frustration if the only argument against a johnlock romance was: “But it’s not in the canon!” “Neither is the modern setting or Molly and loads of other things on the show. ARGH!” I like it when people take existing stories and give them a new twist. But I know that the more old versions seem alike, the harder it is to make a new version that will be accepted, because people want more of what they already like.I am a pastor, and if I ever tried to come up with new suggestions for Christmas carols for Christmas eve I would most likely not survive the shit storm. Tradition changing is very hard, when people love what they already have ^_^I am a slash fan girl, so I of course shipped johnlock from the start.

1) In the first season, I didn’t think johnlock would happen either. I just enjoyed the show with it’s humor. (I am straight, so gay jokes never bothered me personally, and my gay and bi friends don’t seem to mind. My queer friends have never uttered concern about queer baiting, so it came to my attention only years ago.)

2) In the second season I thought: “I still like the gay jokes, now it’s a running gag. Ha ha, still funny.” But then came John’s grave yard scene, and I thought: “Hmm it’s no longer JUST gay jokes or cleverly hidden subtext, now it’ in major scenes too… interesting. Because he already said that Sherlock was his best friend, so that wasn’t the thing John couldn’t say.” (It has been suggested to me, that what he couldn’t say was that Sherlock’s platonic friendship saved him from suicide, and I am open to interpretation-suggestions, but I think this is undercut by John “moving on” from Sherlock before his poposal in the next season)

3) In the third season I thought the romance got so blatant that I started thinking: “OK, Mark is gay, they might ACTUALLY be going for this. They didn’t just put it in for the humor, but as very clever foreshadowing, wow!” Here we got the “moving on after Sherlock before proposing”, the whole wedding episode with the sad-leaving-early-scene, and the Sherlock restarting his heart for John, and the tarmac scene. And I thought that since this again was major important scenes, this had to be a Chekhov gun, they were hanging on the wall. I still thought it was clever, because Sherlock COULD just be sad, that his best friend moved out, and he COULD just be trying to protect the only real friend he had without it being romantic, and in theory he COULD just be trying to cheer John up at the tarmac (Or well, no I didn’t think that for a second, and I don’t see how “moving on so soon after Sherlock” could ever be platonic, nor the look they give eachother on the dancefloor before Sherlock leaves, but since my sister didn’t see the romance, I racked my brain and came to the conclusion, that maybe there was a fair no-homo-interpretation, though I of course thought, that my queer-reading was the right one ^_^)

4) After The Abominable Bride I was getting very excited. I was starting to look forward to a 2017 where we would finally get a huge show with queer main characters. I had stopped even thinking about how casual viewers saw this as platonic.So many people said: “I don’t mind queerness.” So I thought: “Great, then no one will object if johnlock happens. If they claim it comes out of thin air, there is loads of subtext to support it, and they will realize that it WAS properly foreshadowed.”UNFORESEEN YET INEVITABLE are the best kinds of twists anyway.

And I asume that other people would support a romance between characters with chemestry if it is properly foreshadowed, like I do, even if it’s not my favorite ship :) (Just like I would support the friendship arch if that was what was foreshadowed the best, but yeah - clearly people don’t agree what the show foreshadowed here ^_^).

So yeah, I am of course very disappointed that johnlock hasn’t happened (yet?).

It is totally OK that writers are free to write what they want! They don’t cater to my wish fulfillment. And seeing as I am straight, I personally wont cry myself to sleep because I am not getting representation… or, well, the fact is that I actually DID end up crying myself to sleep three nights in a row.I am not sure if it’s because I was influenced by how sad queer people, who really relied on Sherlock to represent them, were. Or if it was just because I had invested so much time in this show and was so sure that the subtext was foreshadowing a romance, that I was just way more disappointed than I usually am, if I watch a movie that is great up until the ending, and then the ending is disappointing… Usually it’s only two hours I wasted. In this case it was many times 16,5 hours. (And they are not wasted, they just let to something that really disappointed me. That doesn’t take away the joy I have had until The Final Problem. But then there is the discussion about whether it is queer baiting. Because if it is, then that might actually force me to reevaluate the enjoyment I had the first times I watched the show.)

It is not fair to demand what you want of someone else, just because you want it, however I think it IS OK to be disappointed in a show/movie or book, if it makes promises to the reader/viewer and don’t deliver. Chekhov’s gun again.But the whole discussion is, whether or not those promises WERE made, and if they were intentional. 

When I write fiction, I always ask my beta-readers to point out EVERYWHERE I might make a promise to the reader, that I am not aware of myself, so I can address it later.

Many people are baffled that johnlockers think the show promised a romance, so is it fair to claim this is what the show was dangling in front of us?Personally I think the answer is YES: I think they MUST have known, they did know, hence the interviews. Many people expected a romance.And if johnlock really isn’t their endgame, I guess it’s fair to say, that in those many interviews they specifically said, Johnlock wasn’t going to happen. But since they lie about a lot of things, it’s difficult to know which interviews to trust and which not to. Therefore I think it should have been at least addressed in the show,I am now wondering: if johnlock isn’t endgame, is the hug scene their attempt to address it?Sherlock: “Romantic entanglement, while fulfilling for others…”John: “…would complete you as a human being.”

Sherlock: “That doesn’t even mean anything.”

John: “Just text her! Phone her! Do something while there is still a chance.”

I personally saw this as romantic foreshadowing and REALLY opening the possibility that this WAS end game, especially because I thought it obvious that this whole conversation was about John and Sherlock, not Sherlock and Irene.

Sherlock would out live God to have the last word, and his contradiction doesn’t stike me as very heartfelt. Others might see this differently, but I took it as a grammar correction more than contradicting the point/meaning/message about finding someone to love. Again I took this as clever foreshadowing, because it COULD be interpreted in a no-homo way as well. Because I have talked to people, who saw this as a way of showing how different John and Sherlock are.John thinks romance is important, Sherlock doesn’t.That is one way to interpret that scene, and it might have been the writers way to show, that a romance was going nowhere. 

Personally I think, if this is the case, it would have been wise to do it in reversed order, so that the writers’ message got the last word - not John.Thus I think the scene should have gone: John: “Sherlock, romance would complete you as a human being. I think you should call Irene, or if you really don’t text her back and aren’t interested, then find SOMEONE.”Sherlock: “John, romance might be fulfilling for you and others, but I am not interested in a romance with anyone.”This would have been much more clear, and would have send a clear message, that the romance wasn’t going to happen.I know johnlockers would still have hated that, but at least it would have been clear that this particular Chekhov gun was off the wall and out of ammo. (But if they wanted to leave that interpretation open, this IS the better way to do it… oh so many ifs >.

You mention both Irene and queer baiting.

I can see many problems with Irene. I really hope she isn’t flirting with Sherlock anymore, and that John’s deduction is accurate: She just wrote him a “happy birthday” without the “let’s have dinner”.

Because if she is a lesbian and in a nice relationship, then I find it very problematic if she also falls in love with Sherlock. 

To see her as some kind of lesbian cupid works a bit better for me, but yeah - there are maaaany problems with that character -_-* 

I am not sure I am the right person to talk about queerbaiting, since I am straight. The thing is, that I believe most people want to be good, and I doubt that many people actually wake up in the morning shouting: “MWA HA HA I WANT TO BE AN EVIL TROLL, I WILL DELIBERATELY HURT PEOPLE AND MAKE A PROFIT BY INCLUDING THESE THINGS IN MY SHOW AND LURE SLASH FAN GIRLS AND QUEER PEOPLE IN, ONLY TO SPIT THEM IN THE FACE IN THE END BWA HA HA HA!”

And I doubt that Mark and Steven did that. At least intentionally. (And since I am still a hopeful tin-foil-hatter waiting for extra content, I hope johnlock could still be canon.)But that doesn’t change that I think Mary’s conclusion to the series is annoying as hell.Not only because many queer people think it is a personal insult, and that the message is: “who you are and your queerness and the identity you have been fighting to create and preserve doesn’t matter. And the time you spend analyzing Sherlock was wasted you stupid idiot!”(And though this was actually what I felt myself. After three nights of crying I remembered that I don’t think anyone would be that evil, and maybe I am a bit full of myself if I think Mofftiss would actually sit down and plan this sort of thing against me personally or against a huge group of fans.)

I hear Mary tell me that the drama I had been watching, and expected to be a romance was actually not important. It was the cases and the detective-story-part of the show that was important.

That is what I hear. But casual viewers might hear it differently. They might think it is a fitting end for a new interpretation. A nice way to conclude the new origin story of a 130 year old legend. But it was annoying to me, because I enjoyed the show BOTH as a detective story and a drama. AND I invested so many hours analyzing the show, and it sounds to me a bit, like that analyzing time finding out who Sherlock and Watson are (queer or not) was a waste of time, if that "doesn't matter".

And I guess that not only johnlockers like me spent a lot of time watching the show again and again for details. I am not saying that casual viewers are less worthy or stupid because they like to see the show just once or twice and move to the next show. Not at all. I think shows are best if they can be enjoyed in different ways. But it seems unwise to piss off the viewers who rewatch for detail regardless of what they seek to confirm, be it johnlock, how Sherlock or Moriarty survived or easter eggs or whatever.

I felt that this ending told me that only the detective part mattered. And the drama and character arches I had been invested in, didn’t matter (be they romantic or platonic). But I guess the words “legend, stories and adventures” can be interpreted in many ways.

If this really is the end, I think they could have made it different in so many ways that would have pissed many people of less.Made John do the final voice over is just one of the suggestions. Different wording would have been nice too, if you ask me, and they could still have made it a clear friendship story, if that’s what they wanted.If they DID want to cater to more fan groups they could have made it more ambiguous too maybe? (I as a johnlocker would still be sad that the romance wasn’t stated outright - but there are so many casual fans who wanted a friendship ending, and who says my wishes are more important than their’s?)

Endings are tricky though. I would have loved to at least see a moving crate to indicate that John moved back in. Which could have been part of both a friendship story and a romance (at least until Rosie needed a room of her own, and John and Sherlock would have to share Sherlock’s bedroom ^_~).Playing with Rosie is ambiguous I guess, it can both be viewed as John and Sherlock raising her together, but it could also just be two no-homo friends entertaining Rosie when John comes to visit.Sigh, I have a very hard time being objective about the ending.If either John or Sherlock had been a woman I am sure many casuals would have been disappointed, that there was no clear romance.Sorry for the wall of text.Thank you for your comment. It is really nice to see other people’s perspectives, because I so easily forget, that not everyone watch the show the same way I do ^_^