#i don't even like stefan as a person if anyone was caroline's best love interest it was tyler

[lizzie-queenofmeigas]

I'm sorry, but if you genuinely still can't understand the reasons for why people hated Elena so much, after all these years, then I'm afraid you're a lost cause. All the hate, backlash, and criticism Elena received was 100% justified and deserved. She's by far the worst and most boring, bland, vapid, weakest, useless, and worthless excuse of a main protagonist I've ever seen in any movie, show, book, and media. Nothing remotely interesting or compelling about her in the slightest. She has no personality or agency, and she contributed nothing whatsoever to the show. Her only personality and the only thing she contributed was going back and forth between two brothers, constantly whining and crying and playing the victim, and being a selfish, self-centered, and self-absorbed little twat that makes everything about her and thinks the world revolves around her. 

And before you use trauma as an excuse to defend her, I've seen plenty of other female characters from other shows and movies that have been through similar or worse things than Elena did, and they were a million times better and more likable than Elena could ever be. Stop using trauma and abuse as a weapon and to guilt people into changing their opinions about Elena. Don't pretend to give a shit about victims of abuse and trauma, when I don't see any of you extending that same grace to people like Caroline, Bonnie, Katherine, Rebekah, and Vicki, who have all been through shit too, and were far more interesting and better characters than Elena were. And you hate them for the exact same reasons, just like how a lot of you hate female characters in general for trauma and abuse they've been dealt. 

So, don't act so innocent when a lot of you villainize the hell out of Caroline for being the only character on the show that actually acted like an actual teenage girl, had believable flaws and imperfections, and was actually a lot more relatable than Elena was. And when you also villainize and victim blame/shame and slut shame her for the rape and abuse she suffered at the hands of Damon. You hate Caroline for rightfully hating her rapist and abuser, and not wanting Elena to be with him. But you don't hate Elena, who's supposed to be the best friend, and clearly has no shame sleeping with a rapist, knowing exactly what he did. Makes perfect sense. 

And I will most definitely always hate Elena for her decision to kill Kol, along with thousands and thousands of other vampires in his sireline. I don't care what Kol did, she will always be a straight piece of shit and a fucking cunt for that. And the audacity she had to be mad at Stefan for sleeping with Katherine and Rebekah, when she was flaunting the fact that she was sleeping with his abusive, rapist brother? Yeah, 100% FUCK HER! She has no say in who Stefan can and can't see. 

How Elena even has fans or people defending her is beyond me. If she wasn't such a bland bitch and had an actual personality and something to offer to the story and was just a decent person in general, then people would've actually liked her and rooted for her. But she was never leading lady material. That should've gone to Caroline or Katherine, mostly Katherine. But I'd do fine with Caroline too, she doesn't need a family legacy or nothing like that to lead the show. LITERALLY ANYTHING IS BETTER THAN ELENA!

Wow. Caroline stans are out of their minds.

No, Caroline doesn't act like a normal teenager. She acts like an entitled insensitive brat. I literally never met anyone who was like her, thank god for that.

Your hate for Elena seems irrational. I understand when people don't like her, but you take it a step further.

Good for you if you hate Elena and love Caroline, but you don't need to be interacting with someone who is the opposite.

[galvanizedfriend]

Hi hi! Just curious on your thoughts, but how do you think Klaus would have felt/reacted if he was around MF when Caroline’s mom died? How do you think he would have handled Caroline wanting to turn off her humanity and/or what he would have done if he was around when she did? I’ve read some fics of no humanity Caroline and Klaus, but I always wonder how things would be different if he was there when it all went down

Oh, I've no doubt Klaus would've navigated all that way better than Caroline's friends did. Nobody understands grief, loneliness and destructive anger the way he does, and I don't think anyone there really got what Caroline was going through in that moment. Not even Elena, who's lost basically her entire family several times over, and especially not Stefan.

The only way I see Caroline turning off her humanity making sense is if she was spiraling out of fear of being alone. Her mother was everything she had, the only sure person to always be by her side. With her dead, Caroline was effectively alone, contemplating eternity. And when the guy she was in love with couldn't reassure her, tell her that he loved her and that he would always be there with her, I think she was crushed by a fear that there was no one else in the world who loved her completely, without restraints, that she turned it off. Stefan was a complete douchebag who spent that whole episode considering the best way to dump Caroline after kissing her. That would not have been an issue had Klaus been around. I'm sure he would've seen right through Caroline's pain, and would've found a subtle and totally unorthodox way to make her realize she would never be alone because he would always be available, for the rest of eternity. I think that's all she needed in that moment.

But if she had still turned it off, Klaus would've been supportive lol Unlike Stefan and Elena, who made everything ten times worse by trying to force her to turn it back on, I think Klaus would've just understood her need to lash out guilt-free for a little bit. I don't think he would've been THRILLED because he admires Caroline too much to be happy seeing her spiraling out of control and being completely OOC out of pain and grief. But it also wouldn't be the worst thing to him lol He would also make sure to be there when she was finally ready to come back. I can see him putting everything on hold just to have her back through it.

If you're interested I have two amazing fic recs for you about that part of canon exaxtly. They live rent-free in my heart and are both stunning, sensitive and very IC with what I think those two might have been like in that moment.

long limbs and frozen swims by @definedareasofuncertainty is just so poetic and beautiful. It explores the depths of Caroline's grief, and has Klaus telling her *exactly* what she needed to hear, and being *exactly* where she needed him to be, without her ever needing to spell it out.

The Parisian Deal by borzoi is one of my all-time favorites that I've gone back to re-read so many times I've lost count. It reads like a novel, and it's absolutely incredible. Just everything I'd expect from that moment, had it happened on the show.

Thanks for your message, nonnie! ❤️

[austennerdita2533]

I am so glad you don't like Steroline either! I tried to love them. I really wanted to. I think objectively Stefan is probably the best person of all her love interests, and I almost always like when best friends end up dating. But they were awful! It was SO imbalanced. Stefan was so detached and uninterested. Even after their first kiss he's all "nah, this isn't for me" and throughout their whole time together he kept withdrawing emotionally even when he wasn't physically disappearing and ghosting her! He enevr seemed fully present, let alone madly in love. Caroline cared so much more and tried so much harder. And their romantic chemistry was nonexistent, which is weird because I feel like Caroline has chemistry with literally almost everyone - just not the guy she ended up marrying! So I ended the series not shipping her with anyone because Klaus is just too cruel, vicious and evil for me to want her to end up with him (no offense - I do see why KCers ship them because he chose her above all others and they have powerful chemistry!) and Tyler chose personal revenge over his love for her and Stefan was checked out the entire time they were allegedly in love. IF the beginning of the series had been written very, very differently, I could actually have shipped her with Damon, but in reality I ended up hoping she was happy single - or maybe even eventually with a more mature Matt! TY for letting me vent - I haven't watched the show for a few years but realized based on recent posts that I still have feelings about it! I also feel like Stelena should have been endgame but that's a whole different rant!!

I was never able to get on bored with Steroline as a couple myself. I tried really hard, too! I loved their friendship, and it bums me out that I ended up having a nose-scrunched visceral "eww" reaction to them dating in the end, especially when friends-to-lovers is a trope I tend to head over heels for. :/

Like you, I disliked how emotionally checked OUT Stefan was throughout their entire relationship. It just heightened all of Caroline's insecurities about not being enough, and I hated that for her. She deserved to be with someone who was emotionally checked IN all the way and Stefan never seemed to be able to give her that. Or, at least, that's how it was portrayed on the show. That's why I've always liked her best with Klaus. Because he did choose her above all else and pushed her buttons in a way that encouraged growth and self-acceptance.

That said, I did really like her with Tyler for a while, too. I was a big Forwood shipper back in the day. Their love was palpable as well as formative; however, I do think they both eventually outgrew the relationship they were in and so it had to end. I still get nostalgic when I think about "until we find a way," though. 😭

I don't think I could ever get on board with Daroline unless Damon had a full-on personality transplant. His behavior/treatment of Caroline was abusive. He always treated her poorly, even after they seemed to bury that hatchet for Elena's sake.

And as for Maroline, they had good chemistry. I'll give them that. However, my problem with them was that he put conditions on his feelings for her and was only able to like her/love her when she was human. As soon as she became a vampire, he couldn't deal with it and dropped her. Caroline deserves someone who loves and accepts her no matter what, someone who will grow with her, and I don't see Matt being that man for her.

Of anyone, besides Klaus, the only other character I could have gotten on board with her dating/being with is Enzo. Carenzo would have been an AMAZING ship. I'm still a little bitter that we didn't get anything besides some flirting between those two. WE WERE ROBBED.

[enobariasdistrict2]

why is JP always forcing characters like klaus and caroline to be like 'stelena is love stelena is soulmates' like pls no

[we-pay-for-everything]

"Do you mean, with the last part of your ask, to say that Damon sleeping with Elena after their breakup was a way for him to be with her without the responsibility of improving himself?" yeah, like Damon does in season 3... it's like Elena need to be alone cause with the time (eternity) Damon will prove himself at everyone like Caroline that he can be with Elena.

Hmm... I think Damon has the ability to improve himself, but he's always doing it for someone else - and that's kinda the same as doing it for himself, because it's in his best interest to not upset his loved ones; even if he's not controlling himself for Elena, he's doing it for Stefan or Bonnie, or his other friends, not to hate him. Damon just doesn't have much empathy for people. He cares about certain people, but if they don't interest him, or if he doesn't connect with them, then their fate is kind of irrelevant to him. Like, most of the time, he doesn't go out of his way to kill people, and he feels a basic sense of compassion towards strangers, but not enough to care if they die. He'll kill almost anyone if it helps him. And no one, not even Elena or Stefan, can change that. The best that can happen is for Damon to learn to connect with people, even superficially, so he'll occasionally choose not to kill them, for him to learn to process his feelings in a healthier manner, so he doesn't snap and kill people every time he's upset, for him to become more patient and find alternative ways of getting what he wants, so plan A isn't always torture and murder, and for him to think more carefully about the inevitable consequences of his misdeeds, such as hurting those he loves, so he doesn't have to do damage control every time he fucks up. I believe this is what happens thoughtout the seasons, and not just because of Elena. She was never the only reason why he grew as a person. She's just the biggest reason, because he often listened to her when she told him not to kill people, and because he stopped himself from killing people she liked. But Stefan, Liz, Alaric, Bonnie, even Enzo and Jeremy, were capable of making Damon second-guess his choices... You see, Damon doesn't care about hurting strangers, but he does care about hurting his relationships and being rejected by those he cares about. He fears being alone, and that people will give up on him once they realize he's just a screw-up, a lost cause, not worth loving or forgiving.

That's just my opinion. I think Elena was never the only person who could influence Damon, and Damon's fundamentally incapable of changing in a substantial manner (ie. learning to respect people just because they are people with feelings who have a fundamental right to live), so Elena being gone didn't change much - he just learned there were more reasons to behave and that his other relationships improved when he did so, which was better for him; I mean, he learnt he wasn't a lost cause maybe, because he could be better even without Elena, but that's not the kind of change everyone wanted.

Thanks for the ask!

[ywhiterain]

i realized you shipped delena at some point and you think both stefan and were abusives but damon is more? and the reason why u stopped shipping them is because damon abuses her and the writers don't allow her to say things like "you know what else blew? being sired to you" with her humanity on? like the writers don't acknowledge the abuse of delena and doesn't allow elena to fight back?

I have been involved in TVD fandom for about eightish years. My opinions were informed by the unfinished nature of the canon and the people I’ve been surrounded by. I’ve grown and changed since, say, season four of TVD. Lost friends and gained new ones, whose reactions to TVD informed my own. The fact that the story is closed means very nature of how I interact with the text changes. My view of Stefan nearly killing Elena in mid season three has changed from the moment I saw it, to the seasons that came after it, to how I see it now.

I don’t like to say that Damon abused Elena more than Stefan or vice versa. Mostly, because I find quantifying something abuse impossible, fruitless, and honestly missing the point.

But here is what I can say about my feelings/thoughts as of now: Damon’s entire relationship with Elena has been about him dominating and using her with very little care for her as a person in her right. Stefan and Elena’s relationship started when they were both in very dark places, where they found some light and hope in one another. Their relationship had its highs and lows. There were times when the relationship was a source of growth and healing for them both - but there were also times when one of them hurt the other.

I don’t think anyone has ever hurt Elena as much as Stefan. He kidnapped her, shoved his blood in her throat, and threatened to turn her into a vampire. Hurting Klaus was one of his goals - but taking everything he knew about Elena, her fears and dreams and hopes, and using it against her. He wanted to make her hate him. Elena seeing through it and loving him anyway was not what I’d call a healthy choice made from a well adjusted person.

Season three also ends with, perhaps, the most powerful act of love in the entire narrative: Stefan saving Matt instead of Elena. In that moment, he cemented not only his love for Elena, but also his respect for her. He knows how much guilt she carries for being at the center of a supernatural war, he knows she blames herself for all the death around her. He knew that saving Matt was more important her than living and he put her desires ahead of his own. It broke his heart to let her die, but he did it anyway. It was an act of sacrificial love, perhaps the most powerful kind of all. 

Season four turns it head on their dynamic some more, with Elena taking Stefan’s worst fears and hopes and dreams and using them to hurt him. Elena kills that waitress to punish Stefan, not Damon. Of course, Elena never has as much power because of the sire bond and having her humanity turned off against her will - but it says something about the dynamic nature of their relationship that Elena uses what power she does have to hurt Stefan when it suited her needs (as Stefan did with her).

Stefan and Elena’s relationship is rich with meaning. Plec and Williamson have talked extensively about what their relationship meant to the narrative and to each character involved. Williamson’s views Delena as disposable and not at all important to Elena’s journey. Plec can talk extensively about what Delena means to Damon - but very little about what it means to Elena. For Plec, Delena is about Damon and it really shows.

Look, the most interesting Damon/Elena ever were was in early season three. Elena wanted Damon, but was afraid of what that said about her - that she was attracted to a monster who killed her brother and abused her best friends. Caroline said it made her human. And so season three became about Elena decided what kind of person she wanted to be. At the end of the day, she saw Stefan - the man who always got back up and tried to rise above his mistakes - as the person she wanted to make a life with. She wanted to keep Damon, all the dark parts of herself she hated, but she felt she had to make a choice.

But it never goes anywhere after that, at least not for Elena. The most interesting she is is in the start of season six when she wishes away her love for Damon, in part, because she’s tied so much of herself into loving Damon she no longer knew who she was without him.

And then she took him back because of reasons (Nina was leaving, time to neatly tie up Delena instead of continuing with the Stefan/Damon/Elena triangle - the lack of Stefan->Caroline development in season five and six wasn’t an accident - Stefan was never going to end up happily ever after with Caroline if Nina had stayed). Damon/Elena stopped trying to say and do anything with Elena, so I lost interest in even reading against what I believe was authorial intent, like I did with so much of Damon/Elena is seasons 1-4ish. I mean, whenever Elena’s perspective was highlighted, it was her breaking up with him, her bending her morals to be with him, her erasing her memories of him, her not bothering to write about him while waxing poetry about her other epic love instead. As a fan of Elena, there’s only so much I can do with that.

[galvanizedfriend]

What makes you think Klaus and Caroline are soulmates? At least one thing that makes you look at them and say… “yess,this is the ship!”

Soulmates is a big word, anon. 🤣 I wouldn't go as far as to say that, I don't think that's a thing in the TVDu. I personally don't see any of them as soulmates. Love soulmates Aus, but thats not something I consider in terms of canon. But I still think they're the ship!

I think they bring out the best in each other. Literally, and in a very honest, non-romanticized way. People around Klaus either treats him like he's the beast of the apocalypse or like he's a manchild who needs to be handled with care, poor him. Caroline is one of very few people around him (Marcel being the other one, maybe) who seems to get that he's neither. She's extremely honest with him, holds him accountable for his BS, doesn't just excuse his behavior because his father was a monster, or his mother didn't love him, or he has too much man-pain to act rationally. And I think in doing so, she genuinely gets Klaus to act in a more conscious way. Which is not the same as thinking deep down he's a good person, or expecting him to change. It's just genuinely making him more aware of consequences.

It's why the only times he's ever genuinely merciful, forgiving and even selfless, it's for Caroline's sake (and Hope's, but that's kind of basic). When he lets Tyler go (all the 100 million times, even after he shows up in Nola ready to kill Hayley and the baby), when he regrets ("regrets") the way he impulsively murdered Carol, when he jeopardizes his plans to save her while he was in Tyler's body, when he helps Stefan at great personal risk. He's also weirdly respectful of Caroline's decisions in ways no one else is. The ball is constantly in her court, he never pushes further than she's willing to give, waits for her to make every move. For someone like Klaus, as impulsive, controlling and obsessive as him, that's a lot. No one else on that show is ever interested in what Caroline wants, what she needs. Not her friends, or her boyfriends.

And what I think Klaus does for Caroline, is that he brings forward sides of her we had never seen before. He gives Caroline a kind of agency she didn't have in her previous relationships, where she basically just molded herself to her boyfriends' needs (which happens again with Stefan to an extreme length). While everyone rolls their eyes at her and goes 'Oh, Caroline…', never truly taking her seriously, Klaus sees how strong and loyal she is, how capable, how smart. He admires how incredible she is as a vampire, how completely comfortable in her skin she is, while everyone around her is plagued by this stupid self-loathing that makes her feel as though she should be ashamed of being a vampire just because everyone else is. The fact Stefan becomes a human and seh stays a vampire when they marry is just ridiculous tbh. I think Klaus brings forth certain aspects of Caroline's aspects - someone who longs to see the world, who wants more than just a small life in Mystic Falls, who seeks adventure and wants to explore every aspect of her immortality, which I think that Silas moment really spells out - that were just READY to be explored on the show, if only they hadn't decided to push for that stupid relationship with Stefan that sent all of her development down the drain.

And he's just so soft for Caroline it's impossible to resist. He makes no mystery about how he just puts her first, how much he relishes every ounce of attention he gets from her, how he chases her like he didn't chase anyone else. He asks her out on a date, for God's sake. lol I mean, more than once, technically.

So, basically, Klaus valued her in ways no one else did because he genuinely appreciated her exactly as she was, while Caroline's unflinching honesty made Klaus more self-aware and conscientious. Caroline sees the very worst of Klaus, but she also gets to see the very best.

As a viewer, I loved Klaroline right from the start because I liked Caroline and thought she was very unfairly judged by the rest of the characters on the show, so when someone showed up who seemed to see her exactly as I did, I was ready to jump in. There's a lot of denial there, a lit hypocrisy too, but that all gets slowly unraveled, and it adds to how complex their dynamic is, which is something I personally enjoy a lot. It's not just 'and they fell in love because yes, the end' which we get to see repeated over and over on the show, when we're told two characters like each other, but there's really nothing there to back that up. Their chemistry is instantaneous, but it's not just that. There's so much to be explored, and I think the show was very clearly building up to something great (the slow burn was really well done there).

IN CONCLUSION. I love them because they are perfect and no other ship in the TVDu compares. Sorry, I make the rules. Thanks for coming to my ted talk. 🤣