#i didnt hate him but honestly found his character somewhat flat

[hotd-daemyra]

I feel like an announcement about a Jon Snow sequel is imminent

And I feel like I’m the only person who could care less about a show all about him, I can think of a half dozen other ASOIAF shows I’d rather see first

🤷🏻‍♀️

[violet-sabres]

Some quick observations re: TROS and some "reylo"musings (spoilers)

- the editing removed A LOT of emotional pay-offs for so many scenes. The decorations and actors change quickly, a bit randomly - in fact it takes a while before this movie finds its tempo and footing. Something weighty happens and no reflection is allowed even in briefest sketch of a reaction. Next scene. Next scene-

- Poe, Finn, Rose and two new female characters were absolutely robbed. Both by the ungodly pace of this movie (there is much potential for scenes that could mean much much more in the whole storyline. As is, they are discarded as soon as they happen). The bond between Finn and Poe got severed in the beginning with some awkward finnrey moments and strange jealousy (was that what it was???) from Poe. I say either carry out the finnrey thread (which was also beautiful actually, though Finn deserves so much better than how she treats him in TROS...) or finnpoe, something which JJ himself built up. Rose should be given an independent arc with no romance involved, or a love interest of her own.

- Rose's infatuation with Finn is never touched. Rose herself is absolutely erased - she is a statist, providing some dialogue with absolutely no weight behind it. JJ treated her terribly - it was his privilege and responsibility to utilize whatever he got from Johnson as he saw fit; but throwing away her potential only underlines the racist sidelining he did to all characters of colour.

- the heteronormativity I can't understand - Finn and Poe are JJs babies after all (and yeah, I know - shareholders...). Why tease hetero relationships for both and STILL leave even them hanging?? Like, he discarded Rose bc first of all racism, second - Johnson's 'leftovers' I guess? Unacceptable. The lady of Poe's was sketched boldly - but still sketched. Her inclusion wouldn't feel so random if Poe wasn't shown to be this randomly emotional abt her all of a sudden. Why now? It felt a bit forced and this is a shame bc she (and Janah, omg Janah...) is super cool. I'd love to read and see way more about all of them.

- Finn and Janah - wonderful rapport, so much empathy and loyalty, they are wonderful together. I definitely could see them together as well - so many threads to explore! There was so much potential to embed meaningful relationships for Finn into the plot. Janah is one of those that felt quite right but deserved more still. She deserves a story of her own. Not for the first time it is a secondary character of colour who carries so much potential and substance and gets sidelined. I dont mind Kylo content btw - but this series was shown to concentrate on 3 people and a villain. Keep to this proportion or perish I say. They didnt keep them and the movie feels unfairly skewed towards the force dyad of Rey and Ren. Hence, robbed. We were robbed of much of quality content here.

- the implication/suggestion that Finn may be Force sensitive held so much promise. I love Finn and Boyega played him with so much passion and dignity. He grew into leadership without pretense or drama, was competent and knowledgeable about the inner workings of the Fleet and found hope he was struggling for. Honestly the problem here is that his prominence was teased to be greater than the actual time and the weight of scenes he was given. This movie should be longer, scene order less abrupt and random - so the characters that were shown to matter in the first part could matter here as well.

- JEDI FINN please. The potential of it was teased - they should scrap some of the scenes and build those kinds of plot points more thoroughly. Finn's arc should be more - but that doesn't mean Boyega played it any other than magnificently. He got what he was given and made it his. I hate that this still means it was not as much as he and Poe deserved it. Same with Rose.

- galactic generals (*husbands) Poe and Finn. It could be marriage, it should be - Isaac played a man in love. I enjoyed this new romantic angle with the spice smuggler lady as well - but it required more buildup. As it was, it made for an awkward and frankly homophobic ersatz for finnpoe plotline of the first and even second movie. I hate wasting the potential of new characters in the movie, and this is what happened here. Also Poe's smuggling past - no previous setup that felt offensive to many bc of its randomness and no previous grounds in existing media. Felt like unnecessary sensationalism here.

- Rey is complicated here. I didnt like her attitude towards Finn and wished for more appreciation of their own idiosyncracies between them. Finn deserved his love (whether romantic or platonic) to be recognized. It was lacking here.

- I loved the fight scenes, the dialogues with Ren that should begin in TFA if they wished for the romance to be acceptably wet up. Driver is so fucking physical and huge, a bit awkward and very strong. To me it was attractive - but to me Kylo always lacked the threat in him when it came to Rey; I know this isnt so for others and respect that.

- Choreography is super effective here, the body work of Rey and Ren is wonderful.

- lighting, the sith locations were one of my favourites

- the creatures - while in the background, theybwere lovely. They made for lusher world out there.

- Palps was eh. Needed for the ending setup, ultimately fell a bit flat. The twist re his endgame would feel better if the whole scene didnt play this fucking quickly.

- the death (you know whose...) is quick and abrupt, passing fleetingly with no real depth or importance. They are rushing to another scene so quickly they forget that if you love somebody enough to accept them fully, this person's death tends to leave some kind of impression. As it is, Rey is hardly the first character robbed of emotional engagement in TROS.

- sigh. Ren. I love to hate him and hate to enjoy him still. Also feeling like a hypocrite bc would I enjoy him if not for my prefernce for how Driver looks like? Would anyone who I respect a bit more than his most fanatical reylo fans? I have no answer really.

I've never seen a character ripped into shreds from so many angles. For incels and dudebros he is a pussy (a lot of girls I know also mentioned that). He is supposedly not cruel enough, not awesome like Vader, whatever.

For others he is a genocidal criminal, and that he is. You can't sidestep Tuanul or his passivity in front of Star Destroyer wiping out whole planets. He is implicated in this genocide - and that scene where he is supposedly mutely watching it from the distance falls flat if its intention was to show he wasn't entirely behind Hux's agenda. He still never stopped him. So yeah, it is obvious that for many he is absolutely undeserving of any empathy, much less a romance plotline with movie's heroine. Especially when the first scenes setting it up were so messed up.

Now I hate the word reylo and I'd rather choke than call myself that. But I did enjoy their enmity and idk love?? towards each other? It should be plotted more consequently and I believe if JJ didn't muck it in tfa people would be a lot less opposed to the whole villain x heroine thing. Nobody opposes it bc of that - it's the torture bed and it's the "whatever I want" line that made so many recoil. It's the absolute lack of coherence at a time where more self awareness was needed from the director of the very first part in the series.

I believe there is a kind of generational divide on topic of their romance. Youve got gen z "antis" who argue about the abuse (and have a lot of good point more reylos should think hard and long about) - and mostly adult to older women (this includes older milennials also!) who grew up steeped in gothic romanticism that, up to gen z growing up, was a dominant romance paradigm in the West.

Youve got your Wuthering Hills, your Pride and Prejudice and Beauty and the Beast. I hate it. I absolutely abhor it, and the more the reylo fandom hammered their whole relationship from this angle, the more I was distancing myself. I believe the whole genre is steeped in toxic masculinity and yes, you can look at reylo from this angle as well - and I understand that when you saw those scenes from TFA, and didn't feel convinced by entirely paradoxal romance teasers (bc JJ mixed them both in equal measure, and thus killed wide enthusiasm for reylo for good) then what happened in TLJ and TROS must look like the embracing toxic hetero romance in entirety. And to some degree it is - entirely by JJs fault. The other elements that you mightve ignored in tfa suddenly get amplified in tlj, in tros and youre left wondering why the hell Kylo Ren could ever be seen as romanceable?

But the thing is, while the analogy of angry white male pursuing a pure young woman seems fitting, it doesnt work for me here. I also acknowledge that it may be in part bc I'm used to the gothic paradigm, attracted to Driver as Ren and feeling safe and assured that Rey would stay herself despite whatever he wanted from her (and she did in my opinion, she never caved even when she loved him). Kylo is white, and he is aggressive - he is a villain, he tortures and hurts Poe and Finn and plays psychological games with Rey, he shouts a lot and is very physical, which in itself looks threatening.

All those could end up somewhat accepted bc he is a villain - people will accept the consequent villain, or paradoxical one done with self- awareness on side of their creator. JJ was absolutely unaware of what a mess he did I bet - the worst elements that crossed "reylo" off the list for so many people I'd argue were first sown by JJ himself in paradoxical chase of I tease this-now I don't. Here's what I mean.

It was JJ who put Rey on that horizontal torture bed, even when Poe's was upright. It was JJ who had Ren say those gross words abt taking what he wanted. It was also JJ who irreaponsibly and paradoxically played with symbolism normally reserved for gothic princes DESPITE the gross elements he himself planted - the mask going off to reveal a goofy Disney prince, the crouching so as not to scare her, the freaking bridal carry, the humanizing via showing Ren's vulnerability. I actually hated some of those scenes - I loved the face reveal no lie, but what followed was unacceptable. Why style your villain this lush and vulnerable when you're shooting your own foot a few minutes after, with dialogue that had whole groups of young women discard him as trash? Why not polish your villain with more self awareness so that the ground for the romance is understood and cautiously accapted?

So youve got an internally cracked TFA that for some was obviously teasing reylo but for others made it unacceptable forever. This is one hell of a difficult mix to continue with and I believe if JJ was given the 2nd part to work with, perhaps he might be able to somehow work with Ren so that TLJ wouldnt feel like slap to the face to those who saw mostly the worst parts of Ren that JJ himself designed. Perhaps he would also polish the romance teasers or got rid of them altogether, idk. TROS shows that while he was eager to discard anything that Johnson had put into motion, he chose to leave reylo content still. This is really paradoxical to me, today as it was back then.

Now reylo isnt super mainstream - if he got rid of it, it would surely anger a lot of people but also satisfy an equal amount of others. Yet he chose not to and I'd argue it is because he planned for reylo to happen from the beginning, just in a shitty way we first witnessed in the worst scenes of TFA.

I'll also argue another point - if Johnson was given the saga from the beginning, reylo wouldnt be nearly as much hated and regarded as abusive for so many. It is this particular humanization of Kylo that was criticized by so many that would protect the 1st part from that torture bed, and from taking whatever Kylo wanted. As it was, when all this sudden humanity followed JJs paradoxical mess, only opposition could come bc it kind of must - it looked for many as woobifying somebody who was already irredeemable. The irony is that JJ probably never planned for this - maybe he thought he could pull this off, somehow work out the agreement between ugly Kylo and Kylo worthy of Rey. Johnson just put a fat line between TFA and his own vision, and irresponsibly ignored all the ugly heritage that should be better worked on if he ever hoped to rectify JJs paradoxes. He didnt do this and thus the mess.

I dont know if it would ever be possible though. Perhaps theres been a shift in ethics, in aesthetics even, so big that for the gen Z this kind of relationship is unacceptable. I dont see anything bad in this - even if I enjoyed a lot of reylo's potential, there will be better content, better romances done by those kids who despise reylo now as well. Meanwhile I plan to stay on this weird pole stuck deep into my ass between reylo enthusiast and haters bc I cant for shit choose a side fully.

Bc I dont see the abuse this clear cut - but am also unsure how much of it is my cultural baggage, the history of normalizing toxic masculinity etc. I bet it's both to some degree, like with all gothic romance genre, - and that there wouldnt be this whole rift at the heart of tfa without toxic masculinity normalization at all. Without it there would be no torture bed and no threats. And the irony is that Johnson would probably see to that better. But not as good as a woman behind the camera to begin with - if you want a heroine at its heart that is.

Like, you can see JJs initial vision as pretty homogenous - the bed, the words, and ignore all the paradoxical romance symbolism in there. You can also look at it as fractured and absolutely lacking coherence, and fish for the elements youd like to stay in next parts. I welcomed Johnson bc he took the best in Kylo and left JJs mess behind. This is also the very reason youre gonna hate the TLJ if TFA felt coherent for you. Bc you cant ignore that which felt threatening and cruel and very much obvious.

I have no easy recipe at dealing with this saga. I cant throw my weight behind reylo fully, ever, but will cautiously accept the potential it could have should it be more coherently written. I love so much of art and those fics that are in line with my wishes towards how Ren should be done from.the beginning.

When I was considering what to.think abt all that, back in the beginning, I didnt want for Rey to cater to emotional demands and baggage of an aggressive male, and I believe she actually doesnt - time and time again she asserts herself, maybe messily but she has the right to her anger and pain so the messy it has to be. She is shown to hope for him becoming better - and isnt manipulated or groomed to do so, and if loneliness was the only reason to stick to him then any other person would suffice, which isnt the case. She is loyal to the cause to the end and happily carries on despite Ren dying, even if it's clear she loved him. She is her own woman and the magnitude of his emotions, the physicality of his behaviour hardly influence her - she neither cowers before Kylo nor caters to him, ever. I love her for this, actually.

So there you have it, my messy thoughts on both TROS and 'reylo' dynamics. I cant say Im satisfied with both. There could be more, Ren could be fleshed out better in the beginning. The potential of so many characters was left undeveloped. I dont feel satiafaction even with elements I loved abt reylo bc there is no counterpart in other aspects I hoped to see developed. I wanted Rey to have more time with Finn, for Finn to have more time with Poe, for Rose to matter in tros as well. I wanted more of Rey and Leia, and for Ren to have more coherence to his character. Ultimately I got crumbs and some bits unable to be stomached.

Go and watch tros, stay in the place of engaging with this series that feels best to you, closest to your needs abd perceptions. Tros will not satisfy anyone in full, also bc of editing and the pacing - which is terrible. Reylo will either frustrate you or frustrate you for entirely different reasons. Dont take JJs shit, dont take Johnson's. Take from the saga whatever works for you.

I dont think it's possible to fully embrace reylo, without reservations. There are grounds for the so called antis to point out the toxic masculinity and potential for abuse. There are tropes suggesting romance despite this still, all in just TFA. It was a mess from the very beginning and it's normal people took sides.

I'm just glad it's finally over.