#i am not aloowed to tag so ...

[la-pheacienne]

so i have to go to work soon and am feeling quite scatterbrained so im sorry if this doesn't feel coherent. But I've been thinking for the last couple days about Elia Martell.

I understand that Elia Martell is supposed to be dead. that her narrative role is to be dead. but i keep wondering about if she had lived. (i have severe difficulty believing that Tywin actually wanted her to live, despite his "regret" over the Mountains actions. i think his regret literally comes from the fact that Dorne is a pian in his ass and not because of anything ehtical or even Strategic*)

*how would it have been strategic to let the princess consort of the previous regime live and go back home after killing her husband and her children? she would probably have been a political hostage tbh, to ensure Dorne's behavior, forcibly remarried by whomever Tywin chose. have no idea who that would be tho. but thats besides the point.

to be honest, I'm too scatterbrained to get all my thoughts in order, but if Elia had lived (and was aloowed to go back home), I have genuine doubts that Dorne would have enacted the same type of long lasting revenge that they do in canon. probably Doran and Oberyn would want the Mountain dead, and Tywin as well, but in this case their sister is actually "alive and well" and while children are precious, at least they have their sister back with them safe. and of course, probably Elia probably would be "broken" in this case. little more than someone wracked by grief. (tho maybe not. proably suicidal, or maybe the fact that shed be grief stricken, "broken" would drive them to revenge)

anyway, if Elia was going to live, i keep thinking that shed very likely become hard, after being the woman of sweet wit once. and I dont know, but if she wanted revenge, would Dorne really help her get it? i know that mysoginy is real, and Westeros seems to have a hard time allowing women to get their own revenge. I dont doubt the depth of Oberyns feelings, but its been almost fifteen years and its clear that he put Elia on a pedestal, (probably seeing the real woman would be truly difficult for him) and Doran clearly wants political vengeance in the story.

GRRM said that Elia and Rhaegar had a complicated relationship, and it seems to me that She probably loved Him more than He loved her. so its questionable whether she would want revenge on purely on his behalf, which would lead to very complicated feelings of vengeance and scorn intermixed, naturally.

probably shed be a heavier inspiration to Arriane, if Elia wanted revenge against Robert but her brothers dont exactly listen, with Oberyn wanting the glory of the act and Doran's never ending patience.

I wont lie, i couldn't help think on this because i Know that the Stansas tend to wrack Elia Martell's description like a corpse doll for whatever shit they're snorting atm, but i think that if Elia had lived, theres a small chance that she would want to go to Daenerys.

Daenerys fitting the description of the Prince that Was Promised- which Elia would probably know about since Rhaegar told her the song title-and also bringing Dragons Back, which probably Rhaegar spoke pf repeatedly.

I dont think Elia would feel only scorn for Rhaegar, even his actions probably hurt her a lot, especially because over the years she too would, alos view him through a lenses of grief. but i think that if Elia knew that Daenerys seems to be the one Rhaegar was waiting for, she'd want to be at her good sisters side, either for vengeance, or because she too, wanted to see the dream of spring-the hope- that no doubt Rhaegar had shared with her.

what do you think?

So, thank you for asking my opinion on this, but this is really not my thing. I believe I'm fairly good at analysing written text, but I am not good at speculation and imagining alternative endings and what ifs. Maybe you should adress this question to someone in this fandom who writes fanfiction or generally likes speculation, AUs, etc. I will tag @ladyalianora for a pro-Rhaegar approach and @alethiaii for a not so pro-Rhaegar approach.

Having said that speculation is not my thing, I don't really know what would have happened if she had lived, cause she died, and her death is a pretty important part of the story and definitely the most important part of her story. But if i want to speculate, Elia surviving without her children in my opinion wouldn't have changed things so drastically. Her house would still want revenge over the dead children. It is not only Elia that would want revenge as you say, it's her entire house, and in my personal opinion, in universe, I think the children were actually more important than Elia herself for the house Martell. Not for her brother maybe, but for the house and the legacy of Dorne, the children are the most important. Let's be real. These children were Martell children and they were the heirs to the throne, they were supposed to succeed their father and grandfather and they would have if Baratheons and Lannisters hadn't killed them. This new order of things didn't just erase Targaryens, it erased Martells as well and the power they held because of their affiliation to the Targaryens. Yes Rhaegar left Elia but her children were always going to be the Targaryen heirs and nothing in the world would change that. It's Robert and the Lannisters that killed them and usurped their father so for Dorne they will always be the actual enemy, always. Plus they would really dislike the Starks because of their alliance with them and because of Lyanna, realistically.

So yeah Dorne would definitely want to avenge the children.

As for Elia, she would be a shadow of her former self, abandonned by her husband who is now dead, and with her children killed. Her attitude towards Rhaegar would be really complex cause he did abandon her but at the same time, strangely, tragically, her interests were tied to him, his death was the catalyst for the death of her children. She would definitely had mixed feelings, bitterness, betrayal, scorn possibly, she would definitely accuse him for being the cause of this entire rebellion but at the same time she would, I believe, feel intense grief over his death and usurpation. As GRRM said, their relationship was complicated, I personally believe there was some sort of understanding between them before he left, there was some sort of closure, cause I believe this possibility is way more in tune with Rhaegar's canon characterization. They were in an arranged marriage after all, it was a marriage of duty. But I'm 100% biased in Rhaegar's favour so maybe you don't agree. Also her negative feelings for Rhaegar would be largely covered by the disgust she would obviously feel for anyone involved in the new regime, the Lannisters, the Baratheons and the Starks.

To sum it up, her mental state would be very interesting to write, very complicated and tragic, just an endless sea of grief and disgust directed towards many different people, her husband, and his usurpers. An Andromache type of character.

As for her attitude towards Dany, I really don't know cause I never thought about this. Maybe she would go to her maybe not. I feel that Dany would be the one to go to Elia and not the other way round. Dany would absolutely want to meet her and talk to her, she would be the only hint of family she has left after all and they could have a connection over their common loss of their families at the end of the Rebellion.

"Daenerys fitting the description of the Prince that Was Promised- which Elia would probably know about since Rhaegar told her the song title-and also bringing Dragons Back, which probably Rhaegar spoke pf repeatedly". Now I do believe it is a possibility that Rhaegar had shared with Elia the prophecy but I am not so sure. Maybe he was very solitary in his visions. And also I don't believe he spoke repeatedly of bringing the Dragons back. I actually don't buy this and I think the fandom has severely misinterpreted his "obsession" with the prophecy. The line "the dragon has to have three heads" was spoken in Dany's dream and it was spoken to Dany. Rhaegar in the dream looked directly at Dany when he said that, and as we know, Dany was most definitely not present in the real scene, if we supposed it was real (it wasn't). It was Dany's vision, not Rhaegar's. All we know about Rhaegar himself was Aemon saying :

"He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet".

That's it. He first believed he was TPTWP and then he believed his son was TPTWP. Period. So I really do not get how we concluded from this that Rhaegar was obsessed with having three children and that he even talked about it all the time. All this comes from Dany's vision, where Rhaegar was talking to her. And this theory is directly promoted by Targ antis who believe the Targs are just a bunch of self aggrandising assholes starting with Dany herself.

So no at this point I don't vibe with what you say. I do believe, however, that Elia would recognise Rhaegar's visionary and idealistic personality in Dany, along with other specific traits, and she would probably believe that Dany may be able to achieve what he did not.

[happilyinsane]

Throwback to the time when Alice and I visited the mural.

It was a fun day, I must say 🤓❤

.

@annonymannonym ily ❤💫