#her 'relationships' w men so it's a totally valid line of thinking on his part

[miidnighters]

Ah yes - the hard part, now, of actually telling the story, now that she's offered it.

"It's not a happy event," She warns, aiming for another smile (though it doesn't meet her eyes), and moving her other hand like she might reach for him (might feel settled by the contact) but aborting the motion. Still, there's no hesitation as she seems to gather herself to tell him.

"It was a few months shy of my eighteenth birthday. My mother and I were on the trail of a wolf that had gone feral - only it turned out to be a shape-changer, that we were woefully underprepared for. He caught me across the ribs, and while I was down - because she was worried about me - he caught my mother." There's a slight pause, here - a light hitch, but Hartley swallows it down to press on. "I managed to take him down, by the skin of my teeth,-" pouring blood the while, muscles and tendons in her side screaming. "but there was no saving her. My father was never quite the same. And I was not afforded the privilege of going to the doctor associated with the order since I'd let my mother die." A mocking tone, there - time has truly taught her what a cruel man she'd been raised by. "So the scar remains. Uglier, now, twisted by time."

(is that bravery? Is that accomplishment?)

This story is punctuated with a shrug, as if she can make out that she hasn't just laid her softest underbelly out between them, as if she's not petrified of what he'll think of all the parts of herself she's just revealed.

And then, of course, the truths she must struggle through are not over.

"Gale, darling, are you really asking what are we, like we're a pair of lovesick teenagers?" Deflection, maybe, just for a moment, because she needs to build that steel back up, didn't she? Still, the question has been asked and Hartley won't leave him languishing without response.

Another swipe of thumb over his chest - almost casual enough to play at being an idle movement. "I hold you in very high regard as well." Exactly what shape that takes yet, she's not sure. "I would even go so far as to say you're dear to me. I would have you as a constant in my life, for as long as you're willing to stay, which is not something I - well." She breaks off, another not-quite-all-there smile. "A friend, first and foremost."

Being but a moment of mindless ecstasy? Evidently, they are far too similar.

And it's funny, isn't it, as Gale looks to her now in the gentling light. None would truly believe it, not with his penchant for oxfords and her __ for life, but as a scholar and a wizard of considerable repute, it is never one's cover that one must judge. She bears smiles and praises. She boasts honey and silk. And it's easier to hide when one can dazzle with one's looks, but how many such fissures does her skin wear now? Thousands. About his chest, the memory of that glass prickles all too real.

Still, her scars speak of bravery. Her accomplishments. Her grit. (Gale can hardly say the same, a man whose great love he can never quite tame.)

With his throat warm with whiskey, his leather chair groans. (And he couldn't. He unlike Hartley is all a fool.)

"Of course," he broaches, "but be it dog bite or not, you've yet to offer me the truth. Those men were eager, certainly, to offer you their lead and to all but guide them. Unfortunately, I've taken a meaningful habit of walking myself, and I can't say I'm willing to be led down segues." No. "I haven't the heart for distractions." But rather truth and vulnerability. 

Her touch prickles at his skin, a thousand flurrying asks surging sharp in the dark. She's a labyrinthed creature, a maze and puzzle to the bright of her eyes. Gale can never be sure that he'll understand get her, but there: she is offering a moment to dare but a step. He takes it. Trying for calm, he manages some semblance of steady. "So, while I am relieved to hear that — truly, I am — that leaves the matter as to what I am to you unaddressed entirely. To be perfectly honest, it's not exactly a mystery I find myself enjoying. It leaves a wizard's imagination to fill in the blanks as it were, and he's likely to fill them in with his own...generous perceptions."

"It's a dangerous option to offer me. You must know that I regard you highly." And if he views him as a plaything? Heavens. No, he has suffered that enough.

[thedeviljudges]

Re. Soohyun - if her death does turn out to be connected to her investigation, then imo I'm okay with that because (within the show's narrative) it would be a result of her own actions/choices, in line with her characterisation, e.g. charging in on her own, not thinking of her own safety, risking it all for justice, etc., and unrelated to her relationship to the male character, rather than just someone hurting her to hurt him. She still retains agency, just with tragic consequences. (1/2)

And yes there are legit criticisms to be made re. the writing of SH's character, but in the rush to do so some ppl seem to be overlooking the rest of the female characters - Elijah, JJ, Sun-ah and Cha Kyung-hee (love em or hate em!), who imo are all well-written, fascinating and strong in different ways. Yes CKH died, but she went out on her own terms in a way fitting to her character and even in death made more of an impact than any of her weaselly male counterparts! (2/2)

I agree with this; although the one small part I will play devil’s advocate with is the fact that the only reason Soohyun continued her and Gaon’s investigation into Yohan is because she doesn’t trust Yohan who has Gaon under his thumb. So, I suppose indirectly, it’s still about Gaon because she’s trying to persuade her friend not to trust Yohan and whatever she found could’ve been the key.

The thing is, Gaon tells her before they leave his house that they can continue looking for evidence about Yohan after they deal with the rising violent situation. But she doesn’t listen, so that truly does align with her character in terms of pride and self-righteousness.

Then again, even if it is indirectly about keeping Gaon safe, the entire thing is still a mystery and she did have agency to go out and try to discover it on her own without being tied to Gaon in that way, so I’ll give it that for sure. She, at the very least, had one thing for herself this episode outside of Gaon. And to your point, which I think is so true: someone hurt her specifically for her nosiness rather than in relation to Gaon. As fucked up as it is to say it, I do hope that’s the reason she was taken out, and the more I think about it, I think the more plausible it is, especially given how charged the preview for episode 14 is.

To your second part: I think it’s easy for people get so hung up on one female character dying because of how the film industry/writers treat them in general. Which is a totally understandable response to have. Women die off for male characters as a narrative device, for them to learn, grow and continue carrying out the plot, and it’s a nasty trope.

The thing is, we can’t avoid women’s death in film because then that’s just too unrealistic. I wish we were given more with Soohyun, that she could’ve been fleshed out and not just a plot device, that she could’ve been way more well-rounded like all the other women/men on the show, but sadly that’s just not the case. I don’t know if the writers just got ahead of themselves with the plot and were like ‘oh shit, gotta do something with her’ or what.

But with that said, you do have a point that there are other women on this show. It’s all about subversion of tropes. We see it with Gaon (he is a female character through and through); we see it with the minister, with Sunah, etc. I know it’s easy to also blame the writers for killing off Kunghee as a female character, but also tell me how many women we’ve seen on screen make a choice about their own death??? To me, her death was profound because she made the decision - she ultimately represented what it means to be pushed to the limit, and that can happen with anyone. She did so not because of a man but because she knew she was backed up against a wall by literally everyone; that makes sense to me.

And Elijah. I’m truly so happy with her, especially because she hasn’t fallen victim to normal teenage tropes and shit. She’s smart and witty. She’s still a teenager that back talks. Given she is confined to the house for safety reasons, she’s still so fleshed out, which tells you a lot in comparison to Soohyun.

And even further, I don’t think any show can every truly be perfect, and faulting it for having some errors is just going to be normal no matter what. Humans make human mistakes, even in the content we create. I recognize that completely. It’s easy to write lines and lines about how Soohyun was failed as a female character, and I think that’s normal to write about, just as it is for any other character, but after that, it’s important to sit back and breathe and just remind yourself that no perfection exists regardless of what should or could have been done.

Unfortunately, it is what it is, and that’s how the show will forever be cemented. And this is why I haven’t made too many posts about Soohyun because there’s nothing I can do outside of it aside from trying to dissect what little information we have about her character in relation to the themes and tropes of the plot.

All of this to say, I do hope we’re right in that even in death it can mean something. I think the friendship component was such a mishandled thing and it had so much potential. Everyone cries about how gays make shit things unnecessarily gay, but we never ask why hets do the same thing. Why does every m/w have to be romantic? Where are the friendships??

For what we do have, flaws and all, I'm happy with their exploration of tropes, how they've mixed it up, especially for genders. They've done a phenomenal job despite a few hiccups - how many shows can say the same??

But yes, I totally agree with all of your points!!! They’re very valid.

[asknightqueendany]

I want to tell you this from a Sansa stan perspective. I’ve seen u mention the Vale issue where she hid it from Jon. The way I see it as that Sansa hasn’t seen Jon in years, she had to convince him to fight/come home and she had no idea how good/bad he is at fighting, she also was never close with him before, was suffering from trauma ptsd and was extremely terrified at going back to ramsay (she legit said she’d kill herself if she had to), so she basically did what she had to. Cont’d...

           Part 2- I honestly would’ve done the same thing. She knows there is no way in hell ramsay can find out abt this and she can’t tell jon bc he is too straightforward (shown when he pledged to Dany in front of cersei) and he may not have seemed as desperate to ramsay therefore giving ramsay over confidence. Now I know jon is a fan fav and ur thinking wtf she could’ve killed him. But she barely knows him? I mean she even thought arya would kill her in s7. Besides Sansa has been on her own for long..    

           Part 3- so she doesn’t have any time to leave her fate in anyone else’s hands. I think it was a last minute decision! I don’t think she wanted to go to baelish bc she knew that would be letting him back in her life. She was probably wrestling w/ the idea of doing this and ultimately decided to. I think it was smart what she did. TBH back then jon wasn’t this crazy impt part of her life, she had just reunited with him and the fear of going back to ramsay was GREATER than the fear of losing Jon!    

The Sansa/Knights of the Vale/Battle of the Bastards issue is always a hotly debated one amongst her stans and those of us who are Sansa-ambivalent.

There were a few parts of your asks anon that I didn’t entirely understand [in bold above] but I’ll try to address anyway.

Your reasoning for Sansa not telling Jon about seeking help from Baelish and the Knights of the Vale are:

Sansa doesn’t know Jon that well - “she was never close with him growing up, he isn’t crazy important to her, she doesn’t know how good/bad he is at fighting…”

She’s afraid of going back to Ramsay, said she’d kill herself before she’d let this happen.

And she was wrestling with the decision to even ask for Baelish’s help because she didn’t want to let him back into her life.

With the exception of your point about Sansa not knowing whether Jon is a good fighter or not - that’s not really relevant - anon, I think all of the above is pretty valid and generally agreed upon by most Sansa supporters and why she doesn’t tell Jon about the KOTV.

So obviously, the ordering of the episodes is incredibly important here.

We’ve got the Jon/Sansa reunion at Castle Black in 6x04, an entire episode before the Sansa/Baelish reunion in Mole’s Town in 6x05 - when Baelish tells Sansa about the KOTV being at Moat Cailin.

Jon and Sansa reunite in 6x04, it’s the first time they’ve seen family in years, they hug it out, Sansa gets cleaned up off-screen, they reconvene likely in Jon’s old office and they reminisce for a bit over soup and bad ale…but then almost immediately after reuniting, Sansa asks for Jon’s help to take back Winterfell. This is before they know about Rickon, this is before Ramsay has threatened the Free Folk Jon let south of the Wall, this is before Sansa knows Baelish has brought the Knights of the Vale North. This is before everything. Jon and Sansa haven’t been openly threatened by Ramsay yet and they have nothing but each other - no armies, no allies, nothing.

And Sansa still asks Jon to help her in that scene in 6x04.

For someone who allegedly doesn’t trust Jon, she’s already asking SO much of him. She hears in a scene off-screen that Jon assisted the Free Folk and let them south of the Wall and she immediately asks how many of them there are…hinting to Jon that she wants him to ask them to fight for her.

[Side Note] This is one of the things that pisses me off about Sansa and her stans. Daenerys gets hurled the “she’s entitled” accusation a LOT but Sansa here, in this scene with Jon, is acting SO entitled. Entitled not only to her brother’s allegiance to her and his sword - asking him to fight for her - but also entitled to the people who are possibly loyal to Jon. Sansa has never spared a second thought for the Free Folk, has never done anything to help them in any way, her story has never crossed with them at all…and yet now that she knows her brother helped them, she’s already thinking of them as potential soldiers in an army for her to take back Winterfell.

And again, at this point, they haven’t received Ramsay’s letter. They haven’t been threatened yet. And even when they do receive Ramsay’s letter, there’s still the possibility of Sansa and Jon going into exile in Essos. She’s a talented seamstress. She could be employed by some noble lady in Essos and have a comfortable living. For all she knows - before Ramsay’s letter - Rickon and Bran and Arya are dead. So why take back Winterfell? She tells Jon “We’ll never be safe” but that’s not really true. She’s got a very narrow view of the possibilities here.

Arya actually did go into self-imposed exile in Essos to become a Faceless Man - knowing there was a possibility she could be turned away - which she was at first, but she went anyway. So it was completely a possibility for Sansa as well. She just didn’t want to do that. She wanted to go home. She felt she had a right to do so. And of course, she wanted her revenge against Ramsay. Totally valid, I don’t blame her for that.

But let’s call a spade a spade.

This wasn’t for Sansa’s “safety”. Safe would be avoiding the fight altogether. Safe would be Sansa not gathering up an army of a few rag-tag Northern Houses and the Free Folk thereby painting a proverbial bullseye on her back with a sign that essentially says “Hey Ramsay, I’m right here in this military encampment, come get me.” [End of Side Note, but actually addresses anon’s second point about Sansa being afraid to go back to Ramsay…clearly, this is not the way to stay off his radar]

Getting back to the main point again, Sansa not telling Jon about the KOTV…

The whole excuse of Sansa “not trusting Jon” because she doesn’t know him that well, they were never close, etc. I think is pretty bullshit. D&D have this to say of the Jon/Sansa reunion in 6x04 in the Inside the Episode:

“The idea that after all Jon and Sansa had been through as characters that they’re finally able to put a foot back on solid ground in terms of family and somebody with whom they have a bond that runs deeper than any other bond. It was a big moment for the two of them and for us to see it played out.”

“And to learn where we’re going to go with a relationship that never really meant that much to either one of them before now means so much because at this point, they’re all that they have.”

“It’s really only the additional pull of family and finding out that Rickon Stark is still alive that forces his hand and pulls him back into this fight he was trying to step away from.

Also of note: at this point, Sansa knows Jon died. “I can’t stay here, not after what happened,” Jon tells her, “what happened” being that his men mutinied and killed him. If anyone is in further doubt that Sansa knows about Jon’s death, Tormund openly says “He died for us” when they’re negotiating with the Free Folk and Sansa doesn’t bat an eyelash. So she knows Jon died and was resurrected.

So we’ve got these two people back together, the only living family either of them have that they know of, Sansa knows Jon died, Jon knows Sansa escaped Winterfell to get away from her rapist husband. Those are MAJOR things! We’ve also got to remember, Sansa hasn’t been involved in the fantastical elements of the story thus far. She hasn’t seen magic or dragons or anything really. So to find out her brother was brought back from the dead is CRAZY. ~Honestly, I really hate that the show just glosses over that like it was as simple for Sansa to accept as, “Oh yeah, Jon had open heart surgery but he’s fully recovered now.” Like, no. This is seriously unbelievable stuff~ But regardless, Sansa knows this happened to Jon. She accepts it. We never see her question his resurrection so she must have seen his scars, spoke to Melisandre off-screen or something.

And yet, even though she knows he died, even though he’s her last living family member, even though she’s already asked him to help her take back Winterfell, Sansa doesn’t trust Jon enough to tell him about the KOTV….?

Of Sansa and Baelish’s meeting in Mole’s Town where Baelish tells Sansa about the KOTV and that they’re basically at her disposal should she ask him for his help, D&D have this to say in the 6x05 Inside the Episode:

“Sansa’s gotten pretty good at playing the game. When she sees Littlefinger though, it’s not about politics, it’s not about trying to manipulate him or anything. He betrayed her in the worst possible way and so in her mind everything that happened after that he’s to blame for it. I think it goes through her mind how satisfying it would be to see Brienne just cut him in two right here. But she doesn’t and that she doesn’t is an interesting quality of Sansa’s. That she’s started to look a couple moves ahead and she’s starting to think ‘is it possible this person will be more useful to me alive than dead?’”

“It’s funny because even as she’s trying to make a clean break with Littlefinger, Sansa is showing us the ways in which Littlefinger has shaped her way of looking at the world. With the decision not to tell Jon about the meeting with Littlefinger, with the decision not to tell Jon how she knows about the Blackfish, if she really trusted Jon, and she really was coming at this as a clean, pure Stark, she would tell the truth to her brother and the person to whom she has real allegiance at this point. For whatever reason, she holds back on that and I think that shows that Littlefinger still has some kind of a hold on Sansa.”

Granted, Dan Weiss’ line “For whatever reason” is a bit of a cop-out because it still leaves the audience wondering…okay, what is the reason? He says Baelish has a “hold” on Sansa and certainly, with what David Benioff says before about Sansa “thinking a couple moves ahead” and Baelish possibly being “useful” to her makes sense. But still, even if Baelish would be “useful” to Sansa, it doesn’t explain why she doesn’t tell Jon.

Weiss says, Jon is the only person whom Sansa has real allegiance to at this point. Yet she lies to him and manipulates him.

Going back to anon’s point about “Sansa not sure she wants Baelish back in her life” - or from what I’ve seen of some stans: Sansa doesn’t want to tell Jon about Baelish because Jon wouldn’t allow it after Baelish sold her to the Boltons, Jon wouldn’t approve, I’ve seen some people even go so far as to suggest Sansa’s afraid of Baelish…

But none of what D&D say above suggests any of that. In fact, Benioff’s quote about Sansa looking a few moves ahead indicates Sansa was already considering the offer Baelish brought to her but refused to his face because of his betrayal of her - selling her to Ramsay. She’s hurt, she feels betrayed, she knows Baelish loves her, yet she knows she needs him. Accepting his offer of help right away would make Sansa seem more forgiving than she wants to appear in Baelish’s eyes.

Or, alternatively, as suggested by Sansa’s letter, decoded above, she knew Baelish would require some sort of “reward” for his help and didn’t want to owe him, likely knowing it may even be her own hand in marriage after Ramsay’s death.

But EVEN STILL, even with everything Baelish has done, judging by Jon’s reaction after the battle “You told me Lord Baelish sold you to the Boltons…you trust him?” he wouldn’t have been opposed help from the Vale, had he known it was an offer on the table.

And this was not a last minute decision of Sansa’s. This was something she was stewing about for weeks. She had this information for a while and let’s face it, she sent this letter out to Baelish well before the battle. Again, the KOTV were garrisoned at Moat Cailin. That’s not a short distance to Winterfell. The distance as calculated HERE between Moat Cailin and Winterfell is about 350 miles. Even if it were a hundred miles, it would still take a week, longer maybe, for the KOTV to reach their destination. Not counting the travel time for the raven.

And we can’t say Sansa didn’t “know” whether or not Baelish would come through. Of course he would come through. That’s why she hesitated. Because she knew he would do whatever she asked of him. Again, she knows he’s in love with her. 

So far as Jon was concerned, if Sansa already had told Jon that Baelish was the one who brokered her marriage with Ramsay and she was afraid Jon wouldn’t want further help from Baelish because of that, Sansa could have lied and said it was her cousin Robin who was offering her his help, not Baelish. She could have made something up, anything. Baelish had gone back to King’s Landing, went to go serve the Lannisters again, whatever.

Jon knows they need all the help they can get. He’s not going to ask too many questions and he really can’t argue when there’s the promise of a mounted army of 2000 men at their disposal, especially if Sansa already has a good cover story for it - Robin Arryn, Lord Protector of the Vale, is her cousin.

There’s just really no good reason Sansa could have for not telling Jon about it. No. Reason. She lied to him about the Knights of the Vale - lie by omission - and she manipulated him using Rickon as an excuse for Jon to go to war when Sansa knew there was a very slim chance Rickon wouldn’t live.

Again, Sansa has some wins throughout GOT but she really does not impress me in the later seasons with either her attitude or her actions. She doesn’t start to put

family

first until the very last episode of Season 7 when she off-screen goes to Bran and asks for his advice on the whole Arya situation and Bran tells her Arya isn’t the one she needs to look out for, it’s Baelish. Everything before that, everything before the Baelish execution scene, Sansa is looking out for Number 1 and spends most of her screen time either undermining Jon or being sore about the fact that she’s not Queen. Sorry.

Oh yeah and, in the 6x09 Inside the Episode….

~~~Dan Weiss confirms Ramsay is Jon and Sansa’s “prisoner” after BoB~~~

Just saying…