#he softens/gets a bit of redemption arc later in the series

[brilliantorinsane]

14.00: Holme’s tiny nod when Watson goes to comfort the bereaved and falsely accused widow. They’re not in frame together, so when Watson kneels next to her the shot has deliberately cut away to show Lestrade’s skeptical expression and Holmes’ grave nod, before returning to Watson offering comfort. You have to assume that at this stage Holmes is assessing Watson as a potential work partner, and the shot highlights Holmes taking note of Watson’s first instinct being care and compassion. It also contrasts Holmes' and Watson's empathy to the way Lestrade seems to relish wielding power over the woman.

[sokkastyles]

I'm already seeing people saying they are gonna "soften" zuko in the first season heh it made me think of your prediction

Listen, the marketing team of this show knows their audience. Zuko is already being marketed as one of the main protagonists. His character and his redemption arc is hugely popular and known as one of the main draws of the series. Does anyone honestly think that the writers of the show are gonna be like "now, listen, we can't make him too likeable." He's their cash cow, and they know it, and of course they're going to play that up.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're going to soften the character, but we'll probably get more of him being portrayed as a protagonist and not just a villain early on.

A lot of this is par for the course with an adaptation. You have to remember that when ATLA was airing, people didn't know how Zuko's arc was going to play out. Oh, there are lots of hints early on that the writers intended for him to be redeemed from the first episode, bit they themselves have said they didn't know how it would happen. That developed along the way.

Netflix has the advantage of knowing all the beats in advance, in an arc that in the original, was more ambitious than any of the other character arcs. But this poses a new problem, because an ambitious arc that we haven't seen before is less ambitious the second time around. So what to do? The obvious answer is to change things up a bit, to play up the things we know are going to happen later. So I suspect we will get some of that.

Am I worried that Dallas Liu won't be able to quite pull off what Zuko did in the original? Yeah, but that's a testament to how good OG Zuko was. It's challenging to pull off that kind of characterization. That and hindsight are both going to affect how people view Liu's performance.

Even so, there are already people who say that OG Zuko is too soft, or that fans soften him, or try to make him seem worse even after his redemption. That's a testament to how complex of a character Zuko is. I find myself analyzing the few seconds we've gotten of Liu's performance, looking for that complexity. That's a lot to put on the young actor's shoulders.

Especially since everything is going to be more subdued going from live action to cartoon. So my guess is that we'll get a less shouty Zuko. The other thing is that a lot of Zuko's early vulnerability is revealed to us by seeing him getting comedically smashed into a wall over and over again, so there will also be less of that. Which means the show will have to show Zuko's mix of simmering rage, petulance, vulnerability and insecurity in other ways. That plus hindsight plus the netflix episode format of less and longer episodes means we'll probably also get Zuko's backstory much more early on, or at least parts of it, probably as early as the first episode.

As for specifically the fear that Zhao being present on Kyoshi Island means Zuko will play less of a role there, I think it's more likely that the show is expanding Zhao's role both as an antagonist for Zuko and as an antagonist for the rest of the gaang, in anticipation of the season one finale. That also goes back to the fact that things will probably need to be toned down in the move to live action anyway. I've said before that it makes little sense to hold Zuko burning Kyoshi against him since it's the result of reckless cartoon bending and Aang puts the fire out very easily via Unagi in an equally cartoonish way. My guess is that in the adaptation Zhao will follow Zuko there and we'll get a three-way fight, and even if Zhao does most of the burning, Zuko will still be responsible for bringing Zhao there, so it's not like they're exonerating Zuko for something the original show didn't even treat seriously to begin with.

[mirambles]

Tere Bin in 45 mins (Part 2)

Part 1 here before you read this post.

6. Mere saath hi lagalo dil (The voice and eyes - biggest draw for me in any actor)

7. His solo realisation scene is where I was dead sure this guy is one hell of an actor and I was crushing hard, leading me to check out most of his dramagraphy.

8. Jab sukun se bore ho jau, bata de na, aa jaonga

9. A predictable but pivotal point comes in their relationship where they get into a car accident (his doing), but he puts himself in danger to save her. His confession to her after a series of misunderstandings was far more powerful than a ‘I love you’

10. The quintessential move the hair from the cheek scene 😄

Where the show hits rock bottom and stops making sense:

This is where the writer should have started showing Meerab softening towards him, maybe some more angst where she fights her mind with her heart, but after this, the show went downhill in an illogical sequence after sequence - which I can no longer waste my time on! If you catch just their scenes post E20 you will be left wondering what is going on 😂

Anyways - one bonus scene post E20 where we get Murtasim saying a cheesy line. I have no idea why I love this scene so much 😂 Maybe cause it reminded me of ZGH tea scene. No comparison though, ZGH one was epic. In that scene Fawad does magic with his eyes and in this one Wahaj with his deep, husky voice.

Where I stand with the show:

Murtasim had the makings of a Darcy, purely cause of how Wahaj has portrayed this role - he has just the right amount of swag and panache. Wahaj is extremely versatile without a doubt, but his biggest plus point is how well he emotes the feeling of being in love. Obviously, the writer did not have the Darcy vision, so the writing of Murtasim was a bit toxic in the initial episodes and some red flags emerged on and off in later episodes which were inconsistent given his character’s growth.

Yumna and Wahaj have undeniably great chemistry, but as the scenes progress you realise Meerab being cold to Murtasim’s growing feelings becomes kill joy after a point. The writer and director have missed the opportunity to tap the potential of these two actors, especially Wahaj who could romance a stone and still melt our hearts! Yumna (from her other drama I am watching with Wahaj) is very comfortable and good in soft & emotional scenes (as evident in the post accident scene). I would have loved to see Meerab softening towards Murtasim’s genuine efforts, her heart and mind battling towards her growing feelings for him, confession and then them settling into marital bliss. But the writer has pushed the audience into an abyss of illogical sub-plots and conniving,obsessive cousin that make no sense. The writer has done so much harm to Meerab’s character to the point that her redemption arc will take some doing.

So in summary , if you haven’t yet started the show but are wondering what the fuss is about, I would suggest don’t waste your time watching the entire show. Just read these two posts and scenes that are probably worth spending your 45 mins on this show just to watch the excellent Wahaj Ali as Murtasim and his fine chemistry with Yumna Zaidi as Meerab.

P.S: Thank me later 😉

[millllenniawrites]

fun in the meantime (FO! Poe Dameron x f!OC)

part two of when the stars miss the sun

written with @vampirewithbedsidemanners

words: 2.4k

warnings: dark!ooc!Poe Dameron (if you want specifics, dm me); smut (rough sex, slight dubcon moment, praise, 'good girl' used); prostitution; established relationship (sort of); slow burn (yes the two can coexist leave me alone); redemption arc; Pixar ending; murder; warnings will be added as the series progresses

a/n: i love this story and im so excited to share it with you guys. this one is as cute and soft as it gets before everything gets very very dark (though please do heed the warnings cause it isn't just happy times)

__

Red woke up alone in sheets that still felt warm and soft like his satin skin. Her Admiral… not that she could let him know how ingrained in her mind he had become over the last three years. Just like every time before, he left her with the taste of him lingering on the edges of her senses, keeping her from the biting, harsh reality of the universe they lived in.

The house was beautiful and grand without being over the top, just as out of place as he was in everything. He’d told her the night before that the house was the only thing he had to his name outside of the Order. She believed it. There was something to him that made her believe that there really wasn't anything else out there for her beautiful, lost man.

She left the safety of his bed, padding across the warm floors and out into the hallway that fed a large central spiral staircase. It extended down all five stories to the basement, where they’d dragged out boxes of files the night before prior to shutting themselves in his office to work.

She hadn’t had the chance to see enough of the beautiful house. Later, when she had a moment, she would explore the place that seemed to be an extension of her Admiral. She would let her hands roam over the banisters, the same way they had caressed across the banded muscles in his thighs as she rode him, giving over her body and heart and soul before she realized that she was.

Red crept silently down his stairs. She followed the sound of fingers on a screen to his office, where they'd spent much of the night before. His uniform jacket was still in a ball on the ground where she'd tossed it after ripping it off him. The papers he'd swept off his desk to make room to lay her on it were still scattered all over the room.

Poe was sat at his desk, hair mussed from sleep. The collar of his threadbare shirt was stretched out, and he played with the edge of it as he studied whatever was on the screen in front of him.

Nothing about him appeared like he was a feared Admiral of the First Order.

When he finally noticed her standing in the doorway, he smiled softly. "Did you sleep okay?"

She padded over to him, easing down into his lap. Something about him put her at ease, when everything about him should have sent her running. Quietly, she threaded her fingers through his hair, tilting his head back so she could gaze into his eyes. “I missed you.” Her admission was quiet, timid, sweet... with no hint of the deadly resistance intel Captain that was actually sitting in his lap.

“Just thought I’d get a head start this morning ‘nd let you sleep.” He’d snuck out of bed before the sun had risen, intending to finish up the packaging of intel that he’d neglected the night before before returning to her. If he had the restraint to resist her, he may have finished the work, but he couldn’t deny himself the little temptations that made him feel alive.

Time had gotten away from him in the early morning hours, as it tended to do.

There was so much more to the war now, and he was no longer the young, energetic try-hard Captain, campaigning for what he believed in no matter the cost.

Things were complicated.

“Come back to bed?” She asked, brushing her lips against his in a soft kiss.

He melted into her touch, softer than he should have been. She could ask him for anything when he was like this, his vulnerable soul left barren for her. “Shouldn’t we finish up?” He murmured, a half-hearted attempt to retain control over himself that he no longer had.

“We should.” She sighed, shifting so she could straddle him. “But I only get you like this for a little longer. That uniform has to go back on eventually.”

“It’s just a uniform.”

“A uniform that keeps me from you.” She kissed his neck as her hands slid under his shirt. Every word fell from her lips like a quiet admission she wasn’t sure she could say, or mean. Not without wrecking everything between them.

“We’ll blow it all to hell. Just need a little more time...”

“I need you.” Her whimpers called him home, her deft fingers tracing his abs under his shirt and bringing the forbidden temptation of her skin flush to his. Her lips on his neck and jaw stole his breath, chasing all thoughts from his mind. “Just a little bit. I’m not ready to give you back.”

“You’re coming with me. You don’t have to. You don’t have to give me back.” His voice was breathy, betraying how touch-starved he truly was.

She kissed him to silence the whimper on his lips, tangling around him. “You don’t belong in the Order.”

“You don’t know that.”

“I do.” She tugged him close. “I do, baby.”

Something changed in his eyes as the words left her lips, his vulnerability swallowed in something darker, clamouring for control. He gripped her hair, tilting her head back and kissing down her neck, rough and forceful. He needed it the way he needed air in his lungs. The wall he erected around his delicate heart shattered in her presence, and he couldn’t afford it. Not now.

He carried her up the stairs, distracting her with kisses and tearing through the thin clothing on her body. There was nothing gentle about it. Gentle sex gave her the space to break down his walls. Gripping her thighs, he flipped her over and pinned her down, lips at her ears.

“I need you loud for me, honey.” He growled, pulling her hips up into his lap and spreading her pulsing center open to make space for him.

“Poe!” She cried out, forgetting what they were for a moment. All that mattered were his callous-rough hands on her skin and the musk of his breath on her neck. He slid in all the way, not needing to get her ready for him, fucking her in the brutal but sweet way that made the room spin.

He lost himself in her moans, the way she thrashed in his arms as she neared the edge. He almost couldn’t hear her pleas for a break over the sound of her begging for more.

“That’s a good girl.” He murmured, too soft for what they were now, his praise painting her lips.

“Your... your good girl.” she gasped, “I’m yours.”

*

Red fell back into his arms in the bed, still giggling from the accidental tickles. Twisting so she could see his face, she relaxed, bitting her bottom lip. “Civilian life looks good on you.”

"Y'think so?" He gazed down at her. "This is the first time I've given it a try."

“Lucky me.” She grinned, wrapping her arms around him.

"I think I'd wanna be somewhere warmer. Salient has too much winter." He pulled the blankets up over them both before letting her curl up in his arms.

“Ever been to the old capital?” She hummed, drawing on his chest.

"I haven't been to any of them.” And he wouldn’t have the chance to visit one of them now that the Order had destroyed Hosnian.

“Chandrila is like a never ending summer. If this war leaves it untouched, maybe we can go after it all. Just us.”

"You don't wanna be seen with me." The thought of it was so absurd he snorted. He’d been in enough of the propaganda the Order put out that there would never be peace for him.

“No one has to see us. We can take a boat out to the islands and go swimming and fuck and lay out in the sun.”

She could see it. The warm Chandrilan sun on his tan skin, lighting his eyes. His curls in between her fingers and his lips between her legs. Them, laid out in the open, a far cry from the corners they’d been hiding in for three years.

Poe couldn’t help but indulge her. "We wouldn't even need to bring clothes."

“I think clothes on you should be illegal.” She giggled, scooting over onto his chest and straddling his hips.

"Yeah? I don't think that's part of Pryde's plan. You're welcome to talk to him about it when we transfer, though."

“When I’m done with him, it’ll be his first priority.” She grinned mischievously.

He couldn’t help but melt at how sweet she was. “He would be scared of you, if he saw who you really are."

Her smile softened as she eased down into his arms. She knew he meant it as a compliment, but she couldn’t help but worry. Why she gave a shit what he thought of her, she didn’t know. If it was going to wreck the mission, it would have by now. “Do I scare you?” She asked, her gaze as intense as the pounding of her heart in her chest.

"Yeah," he said softly. "But that's a good thing, right? You're supposed to keep your informants in line?"

“Are you still an informant? I thought we were friends.”

“We are. But you’re here to take down the Order. Same as me.” He poked her forehead. “Agent.” He poked himself in the chest. “Informant.”

She copied him, jabbing him in the chest. “Poe, Red. And right now, we’re just two very hot people in bed together. Naked. Enjoying life.”

“It’d be kinda sexy to call you Agent in bed.” He wiggled his eyebrows.

She laughed, shaking her head. “Anything as long as you don’t call me ma’am.”

“Yes ma’am.”

She punched his shoulder lightly. “Poe!”

“Why don’t you like that one? Bad boyfriend?”

“It makes me feel like my mom.” She made a face like she was grossed out by the thought, warm love for her mother radiating through it.

“Gotcha.” He kissed her lightly. “Your whole ‘young and innocent and beautiful’ look doesn’t exactly give off mom-vibes.”

She pouted. “I think I’d make a beautiful mom.”

He smoothed the wrinkle in her brow with his thumb. “You would. Of course you would. I just meant that you wouldn’t attract clients with Mommy kinks.”

She scrunched her nose. “Not mommy kinks. Breeding kinks though. I don’t mind those.”

He was quiet as he thought about it. “I don’t know if that’s my style. It seems pretty... close. Intimate.” He coughed, like that could make him feel less exposed. “I’m never gonna settle down with anyone so I don’t think I’d be able to handle taunting myself with that, y’know?”

She held his face, bringing herself as close as she could to him. “I’m not either. So maybe we can with each other. Right at the end. That’d be one hell of a way to go out.”

This was her job. Her role, for the Resistance. She had to make him comfortable and keep loyal and Poe understood that. But he had no reason to betray her. There was no risk in buying in. In letting her do what she had to. “It would be.”

The bed was more enticing than the rest of the house — or the rest of the universe — as far as they were concerned. A droid rolled in about an hour later, bringing foods that neither of them would see again once they left their little sliver of civilian life.

He drank caf, with milk in it if that was an option. He liked his eggs cooked through and spice with his dinner. Everything was appetizing to him as long as it wasn’t slimy. The more they rolled around and talked and fucked and snacked, the more human he seemed to her. The war was worlds away, set in another time and another life where her and her Admiral were just simple people living simple lives.

He knew what she was doing. The questions she asked and information she gathered, just set her up to move around him as seamlessly as the air he breathed. When they got where they were going.

If.

Her laughter made him dream of quiet afternoons just like this, with a beautiful girl in his bed. Endless summers in her eyes. With her, he almost didn’t need the Chandrila sun.

“How often do you make it out here?” She asked casually, eating a piece of fruit while sprawled out on his bed, her eyes on his bare ass.

“Not often. Less since my promotion. It’s pretty nice though, hey?” He noticed her gaze and tossed a clean sock at her.

“Great view. I could stay here forever.” She grinned, spinning her finger in the air at himself. “Nope. Turn back around.”

Poe twirled around, showing off like he had a part time job at a strip club. He moved from the hips, putting on a show until he caught her eyes.

It was too vulnerable. All of it.

He pulled a face, sticking his ass out and wiggling his hips.

She tossed the sock, hitting him in the ass. “You’re lucky you’re hot.” She giggled, reaching out for him. “Come back to bed. I won’t get to lay around and fuck you all the time when we get back to your ship.”

“It’s not mine. I’m only an Admiral.” He crawled up the bed to her, slotting himself between her thighs. “But I’ll take advantage of this while I have it.” He gripped her hair in his fist, tilting her head back to expose her throat. His gaze trailed down her as he murmured, “So pretty...”

She growled, flipping him over and devouring him. There was something in the way he held her, kissed her, that told her she could ask anything of him and he would. For her, or the resistance, she didn’t care. As long as he was on the right side of the war.

His words echoed back in her head like a problem she had to solve. The ship wasn’t his.

She could fix that.

[sugarandspice-games]

Spicy take time (costarring Sugar): The Bros rated by how well I think their arcs/character development/relationship with MC was written and how much it makes sense. (Disclaimer: Our affection for these characters and how interesting, compelling, and lovable we find them has ZERO bearing on this list. ALSO, beware, here there be salt, IE, this is critical of the writing. It’s also long as fuck, so if you just wanna skim and read the bold parts, that’s okay too. You are also free to disagree with us as this is just an opinion, and keep in mind that we have only read to chapter 24 so if there are elements of the story we are unaware of... please be understanding of that and don’t spoil it.) Let’s get started, shall we?

1) Starting at the top is BEST BOI IMO: Beelzebub. So, yeah, in terms of character development and growth, he really doesn’t change all that much, aside from starting off not trusting MC to slowly opening up to them about his trauma. But putting that to the side, his relationship with them makes the most sense. After sharing a bedroom and helping him open up, as well as having the mutual goal of protecting Luke, and then even later going on to save his beloved little brother, it follows that he absolutely adores you afterward. Also, he doesn’t start off disliking you like some of the others. So, all around, he makes the most sense. He’s also one of the deeper characters with his backstory, even if I wish they’d give him other flaws than just being hongry (and playing his unhealthy eating habits/coping mechanism as a joke. Disordered eating should be taken more seriously, especially binge eating but that’s a can of worms for another day)

2) Second best is probably going to shock you, but Satan takes this spot. Why? Well, strictly in terms of arc progression, his relationship with MC starting out as one of manipulation and growing into something more genuine when they go on a heartwarming and wacky adventure together with his hated older brother which causes him to open up makes a lot of sense, at least more so than some of the others. While I wish they gave him more meat characterization wise, I think his arc was pretty well done in terms of story structure.

Okay, so, Sugar here. While I agree with Spice that Satan could use some more meat (and that we should be able to have some more information on Baby Satan because we all need that in our lives), I think that the progression of him and LUCI’S bond (not MC’s) could have done with more subtlety. While I appreciate him softening up, and see that progress, we don’t really get to see the tension of the newfound change and how he settles into letting things go/mellow out and I get it-- it’s a dating sim and the secondary relationships are well, secondary, but it would be interesting to see him and MC bond more through time.

3) Third place probably won’t be all that shocking, because this is where I’m placing Lucifer. He’s arguably one of the characters in the series who’s gotten the most love from the writers, having the most screentime, the most affectionate scenes with MC, and the most fleshed out backstory and characterization as well as fleshed out relationships with each of the characters. His relationship progression with MC also takes a nice, even pace, with him slowly learning to trust them and respect them, culminating in an almost-confession (I THINK. Unless I’m reading that part wrong) and then being shattered at MC’s betrayal, and then earned back in true Pixar-movie fashion by them teaming up for a common goal. HOWEVER. And this is a big however. I would love to see his unhealthy tendencies addressed and NOT fetishized. (Don’t come at me with that “BUT THEY’RE DEMONS THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE EVILLLLL” dude. If a demon being in a healthy relationship is where you draw the line in terms of believability, then why are you playing a fantasy demon dating sim anyway?) I love him, I stan him, I simp for him, but I wish he had at least apologized for his not-subtle threats of physical violence toward MC rather than jumping straight into the ALSO kinda violent “You’re mine and nobody else’s” gimmick.

Unlike some men (SPICE), I am actually not a Luci stan and while I do have a soft spot, and understanding of his place as an eldest sibling... I would also like to see the writer’s unravel the unhealthiness/coping Lucifer has in place and why/how it came to be. I feel like we get a sense that Luci has thawed since coming to the Devildom but we don’t really see how Lucifer in the Celestial Realm (and how his friendship with Simeon) has progressed. Luci has a lot of love from the writers but from a story stand-point, he is never really allowed to be weak and own up to his own flaws and how that has impacted/hurt MC.

4) Sharing fourth place is Leviathan and Mammon! I’m putting them in the same spot because the issues I have with them are the same, though I plan on addressing their good points individually. But since my beef is simpler, I’m going to start off with the bad. IMO, a good rivals to friends to lovers romance happens in STEPS. You start off from not getting along, to then finding some things in common, and gradually coming to respect each other, and then like each other, and finally love each other. This... doesn’t really happen with these two, and while we see the change from both tsundere boys starting off disliking you and eventually coming to love you, we don’t really get that inbetween that makes the payoff so much worth it. And if those inbetweens are there, the story doesn’t really tell us that, and it doesn’t show us their thought processes. Like, how much would it suck if in pokemon, your charmander evolved immediately into Charizard upon beating your first few gyms? It’s like that.

But as for the good, Levi’s arc makes sense because you’re the first person to really let him be himself and not shame him for the things he loves. You let him ramble about his interests and show interest in them yourself (AT LEAST IF YOU’RE NOT A FUCKING MONSTER. I’ll let Sugar talk more on him, that’s their boy.)

Whoo, boy. Here we go! For whatever reason, the otaku became my favorite and I love him, but as far as arcs go... He could have gotten a bit more screentime and progress. It makes sense that he would become attached to MC as his brothers are very, very... critical and patronizing about his interests. He is also by far the most skittish and introverted of the bunch, coupled with his sin and seeing all the ways he falls short (in his eyes) is a recipe for loneliness and desire for companionship/friendship. While I am not happy with the progression, for me, it makes sense and I would also have loved to see some breaking/softening of how much his Sin influences him when it comes to MC. I’m not saying erase it because demons are meant to give in to temptation but some reassurance and acceptance of that would be good.

(I also know that there is some disk horse about him guilt-tripping you about spending time with his brothers and while I agree it can be hard... It definitely isn’t on a painful level. Like, say... Ray’s in Jihyun’s route in Mystic Messenger. This also is a difference for players who are interested in one love route versus the many route and different strokes, but I digress.)

As far as Mammon goes, well, you’re his first. And he’s not only glad that there’s someone who’s kind to him instead of making fun of him, but also takes pride in having someone to protect. His puppy crush going to full blown love is adorable.

This blog is all about spicy takes, yeah? Well, here’s mine (Sugar): Mammon is lovable but not as lovable as he could be and before all the Mammon stans, come for me- let it be known I like Mammon but his introduction and how he comes to be soft is NOT an easy, or believable transition. There are ways to write a good tsundere and the writers just missed the mark by having Mammon be too callous and then slipping to lovable without that sweet slide into the other end. I will not deny he is very cute, and a good character, and a good brother (and also the most human, according to Satan’s home screen interaction) but... The progression and endearment factor is lacking because of the structure of the narrative.

5) Is another unsurprising one, but this spot is Belphegor’s. Solmare. My dude. Why did you do this. We could have had it ALL. It could have been great. But you screwed the pooch. You took anything good about this relationship out behind the shed and shot it like a lame horse. Let it be known that I LIKED Belphie and MC’s alliance to get him out of gay baby jail, and I adored that love he still holds for Beel... I thought he was going to be a fav of mine, in fact. But how they handled the... uhm... murder ruined it for me. I’m sorry, I just cannot believe that I’m supposed to suddenly be besties with the man who manipulated me and crushed me to death like, a week after it happened. What if I have PTSD from that??? Also... he claims that he loves MC for who they are and not because of Lilith, but that’s not believable when his whole turning point is finding out that they’re Lilith’s descendant. The change needed to be more gradual, and having a subtle, gradual forgiveness arc would have been AWESOME but we were robbed. ROBBED I TELL YOU!!!!!

Annnd... Belphie is actually one of my favorites FOR SOME REASON. I DON’T KNOW MAN. I agree that we could have had it and I’m like (Insert Hades red flaming hair gif here). The decision to not have a redemption arc ruined it for me and while I love Belphie and his softness/brattiness mixture with handling MC... It is underscored by a lack of believable affection and the payoff of struggle on both Belphie’s part and MC’s. Also, there is a lot of ‘You are not who I want you to be, but it’s good enough’ with MC regarding their lineage and connections to the brothers and how that plays out/color the relationships with maybe the exception of Satan and surprisingly, Mammon that irks me but again, another thought for another time.

6) Aaaaand last and also the least... Asmodeus. “YOU GET NOTHING!!! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY SIR.” --Solmare to Asmo. The writers neglected him SO much, I like him but what the hell are they doing? There’s so much that could be explored here, and with anything involving Asmo they’re like “I do not see it”. His love for MC also isn’t really that believable when his turning point is realizing that they’re powerful. It doesn’t even fit with any of his potential conflicts. The Diavolo’s castle arc set us up to think that Asmo would have some deep seated insecurities with not being able to be loved or desired by everyone, or maybe some insecurities about not being an angel anymore, or some vulnerability issues or something, and they were just like NOPE. It doesn’t make any gotdamn sense! I just... Grrr. Asmo, I’m so sorry, sweetie. You deserve better.

Asmodeus definitely deserves better and I will stand by that until the day I stop playing this damn game. While I, personally, think that his intrigue with MC makes sense (because he is lusty-- probably not just for sex but in general), it makes sense he would want someone with power but while the set up is there, his character falls flat because there is no bonding moment, or turning point for him at all. His affection for MC is still that playful, carefree, flirty persona he carries and I would love to see it dropped and how his fall from the Celestial Realm really weighs on him and an arc where he and MC talk about vulnerability and the power behind being seen as someone attractive and the way it dehumanizes you at the same time. It could be good-- hell, it could be great-- but it was killed before it started and I will never not think that Asmo could have had some KILLER growth. As it stands, he has more connection/romantic potential with Solomon than MC.

Anyway, that’s all for now folks! Feel free to yell at us in the replies, you know you want to. If this post blows up enough, maybe we can rate the undatables (though they don’t have any story arcs so... that would be a challenge.)

[aotopmha]

I really appreciate how Dragon Ball Super went back to being about Dragon Ball's original theme of self-improvement.

The original Dragon Ball series was about Goku's journey to becoming a master martial artist - about him above all learning patience and understanding of his limits and that no matter what, there will always be ways for him to improve.

These turning points happen in his fight against Jackie Chun and during his training with Kami, which are, in large part, rounded off during the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament, but are revisited at various points in the story in various guises.

Along the way he spurs his antagonists and friends alike to improve and grow stronger and better, as well.

I've talked about how most of the thematic substance in the story is very loosely connected and more arc specific, especially in the Z portion of the story and I think it all has to do with very little effort being put into connecting any of the ideas of the story to each other.

The theme of self-improvement is slowly buried behind all the other ideas the story decides to focus on and as time goes on, even contradicted.

It still works when Goku is revealed to be an alien because he is established to be a low class warrior of his race - the theme is simply related to him not being bound by his birth status and being able to grow beyond it through hard work. We also have Krillin, Tenshinhan, Gohan, Piccolo, Yamcha and Yajirobe stepping up against the Saiyans and showing their growth through that - as much as I dislike that Yamcha's and Tenshinhan's character arcs are never highlighted.

They are treated like generic nobodies, rather than long-time members of the cast. You could argue it's to show how terrifying the Saiyans/Nappa is, but you can do that while respecting their characters.

Despite this issue I have with how their characters are treated, I don't think any of it shakes the story thematically yet in the big picture.

However, this arc does also introduce the Saiyans and their special race traits and through that the story's habit of throwing many of the other characters aside. This is something the prevails across the whole story and into much of Super, too.

The Freeza saga is about becoming stronger and better than you already are in much more vague ways. Only Gohan's and Piccolo's continued character journeys and the idea of the Super Saiyan adhere to it and Gohan and Piccolo are pretty clearly side characters in it.

They do matter in terms of several plot points, but the story doesn't really zoom in on the idea of their growth specifically - the arc is more about identity and racism, however basic way they are covered.

The most significant thematic part of the Freeza arc to me is Goku's Super Saiyan speech as the acceptance of his Saiyan heritage. He is one and makes peace with it - having questioned it before he let Vegeta go (this actually is much better executed in the anime because of Goku initially straight-up denying his relation to the Saiyans).

Self-acceptance can be part of self-improvement because it grants inner peace, but the story doesn't really connect or explore the two ideas in any meaningful way. There is never any substantial struggle for Goku about controlling Super Saiyan, either, so it's all a very surface-level representation of the theme of self-improvement.

On the other hand, the Cell arc really does seem to go back to this theme and actually even connect it's arc specific theme to it.

The Cell Saga is about Gohan finally stepping up. Goku's ultimate sacrifice and Vegeta growing to care and helping to defeat Cell by the end kind of count, too - bringing long-term arcs to their ahead.

As much as I love Piccolo's remerging with Kami from a symbolic POV, his actual substantial growth happened in the Saiyan Saga and was done by Namek. I feel like his actual principles and character didn't change in signficant ways through the mergings with Kami and Nail (the plot importance laid in Piccolo having to grow stronger), but they still were expressions of his growth in the Saiyan saga.

Cell doesn't actually really start off by being about Gohan's, Vegeta's or Goku's arcs - the Cell portion actually feels kind of disconnected from the rest of the arc.

The initial theme of the arc is actually "you can choose your fate". This is expressed through the Androids' rebellion against Gero and the very premise of the arc - Trunks came back so the fate of everyone could be changed.

You can connect this theme to being related to the idea of self-improvement - after all, how our lives go should be of our own choosing, but at the same time, we can choose to be good or bad people when we have the choice. Gohan brings it up in the battle against Cell. Add to that, as poorly as I think it's handled, Cell is supposed to be the manifestation of all the negative traits of the characters.

So, seemingly the only problem with the Cell arc thematically is that it's theme is confined to a select few characters - for a series talking about how anyone can achieve anything by working hard and can always be better than their current selves, it sure takes the chance from a lot of the cast to do so.

The problem I have with the Cell arc is that while I think it works thematically in isolation, it doesn't in context of the bigger picture.

After Cell comes the Buu arc, which I think is an absolute thematic disaster and my biggest example of how DB lost it's direction.

I love the direction it goes in tonally because it's the closest to how Dragon Ball originally felt, but it's a complete mess otherwise.

Yes, we have Vegeta's redemption and him willing to work together with Goku and we have good Buu's arc with Mr. Satan, but we also have Goten and Trunks being introduced and never learning anything or amounting to anything and Gohan's arc not getting any follow-up - his newly discovered flaw of arrogance and how his power influences him is never substantially addressed or resolved in any way. We see it again when he gets his Ultimate Gohan power-up, but nothing is really done with it.

Add to that, the power-up is the most unearned one of the whole arc - Goku's SSJ3 transformation and Trunks and Goten getting SSJ are bad, too, but Gohan's is extra bad because he has setup behind him. They all grow stronger, but it's not tied to any character growth.

The fusion is introduced as a means to have the characters learn to fight together, but by the end it isn't that effective and thus doesn't work that well thematically.

Goku's sacrifice means nothing not because he comes back, but because him taking responsibility isn't treated like it's part of his arc and followed through on. It represents the self-improvement theme just fine in isolation, but it's not something that is consistent.

EoZ even straight-up trivializes Goku's journey by just having him leave everyone - he says he'll visit, but the issue here isn't in the established details, it's the thematic significance of it and the connotation it decides to leave the story off on. Along with growing stronger character and strength-wise, his whole journey was about finding his place in society, too - how everyone around him shapes him and is important to him.

Even if it actually isn't the intention to trivialize this theme, it *feels* like it's just sort of thrown away within the span of a few chapters/episodes - the last chapters of the story at that.

It leaves you asking what the point of following these hundreds of episodes/manga chapters was. Maybe it was Toriyama's way of being subversive by saying "it doesn't really matter what it means, it only matters that we had fun", which is unique and certainly a twist in terms of storytelling conventions, but it's really frustrating and feels like being contrarian to the story's themes just for the sake of being contrarian.

There really isn't a single thematic thread that isn't contradicted in the Buu saga at some point, but there is also no consistent theme at all. It's a confused mess.

So I appreciate how Super kind of refocuses itself thematically.

In BoG, Beerus is introduced as lazy and uncaring, but by the end of Super changes for the better and starts caring just a little bit.

Goku is also reintroduced to the old lesson that there is always someone stronger than him out there. I don't particularly count him putting his selfish wishes aside to save everyone as new because he basically always ends up doing that in most of his fights.

I have a bunch of problems with RoF.

Whis spells out the ways in which Goku and Vegeta could improve themselves, but the ultimate thematic point of RoF doesn't work because Whis is the one who saves everyone - Goku and Vegeta didn't overcome any of the flaws Whis highlighted in any capacity. As much as I dislike that and how obtaining Blue wasn't connected to any shown character development, either, it was actually about Goku and Vegeta having to overcome their major flaws. In addition to that, Freeza is linked to the theme of self-improvement, too, which offers a new perspective on it because it's a villainous version of it, particularly come the ToP.

It's actual character substance that is actually connected to one of the main themes of the story.

The U6 arc has Cabba and Hit as the biggest examples.

You could argue that Cabba getting SSJ so quickly is annoying, but narratively SSJ hasn't been relevant for a long time, so I feel like it doesn't really matter. It was also established that the U6 are different from U7 Saiyans - not only because they are stated to have evolved differently, but also because they have different designs. They are clearly intended to be distinct from U7, only sharing basic traits.

The U6 arc's final battle is about surpassing limits in the most literal sense and also creates an arc for Hit - he learns to enjoy himself again and we later see him also softening up and learning to care.

However, later on, Botamo, Magetta and Frost get a share of this theme, too.

Botamo and Magetta learn to work together, something foreshadowed in the teamwork of the baseball episode.

Frost is shown to have grown stronger when he meets Hit again.

Going back a little bit, though, I think the FT arc is excellent when it comes to this theme. Zamasu's arc is a direct negative parallel to Goku's journey of learning patience - he has no patience for mortals because of all the negativity he sees in them and simple cynicism grows into hate. He is straight-up in a direct opposition to the idea that people could become better people, more specifically.

The ToP is the direct thematic follow-up to this.

Most major and some minor characters go through arcs.

I think they are not always perfectly written character arcs and Jiren specifically should've been set up across the arc, rather than just saved for the end, but I still also like most of them and I think most of them work out by the end.

I like Kale's arc and her standing on equal grounds with Caulifla by the end.

I like Ribrianne realizing her perspective on love isn't absolute and perfect.

I like that Jiren softens up by the end.

I like Cabba taking the lesson he learned from Vegeta to heart.

Going to the main cast, when looking at Goku and his role in this arc, Ultra Instinct is pretty much perfect as the pinnacle of his growth so far. It combines his lessons from Roshi, Korin, Kami and Whis and makes it into my favorite power-up of the series. It's not "new", but still a perfect representation of Goku's journey and the lessons he has learned.

I like that Gohan's arrogance was addressed, but also that his whole arc across the story was made about his indecisiveness. So, he was actually connected to the theme of self-improvement again.

17, 18 and Freeza actually feel like they have the most natural arcs of the ToP to me.

17's and 18's most signficant actions in the tournament are selfless actions that consider others. 18 saves 17 and 17 wishes the universes back. They have come a long way from being directionless jerkish brats.

Freeza is an extremely fascinating example thematically because his arc is a parallel to Goku's: learning patience, but also learning to work for what he wants. He simply uses these lessons for the sake of evil.

Krillin is also a great example of self-improvement: he faces his fears and decides to fight again.

The note the story decides to leave on is disapproving of Zamasu: all of these character arcs and 17's wish show that people can change.

Next, Broly is actually also a little more vague about this theme again, focusing more on the other main idea of the story - the value and importance of the connections with others to us and how the people around us shape us.

The most significant thematic parts are Goku telling Broly to not follow bad people and Broly's SSJ transformation - they bring the movie together thematically for me.

The change of Bardock from Minus does adhere to the self-improvement theme, though. It gives weight to Beerus's initial indifference because Bardock was a Saiyan we saw wanting to be better.

Perhaps if Beerus had given them time, they could've grown to be better? This is bolstered by how the U6 Saiyans actually did grow to be better.

Finally, I like Moro so far because he currently challanges the heroes by different means than they have been challanged so far, leading to a different kind of self-improvement being possible for the characters.

So, I think Super itself is an extremely thematically tight story because it has very few divergences and contradictions (most of them being in RoF).

Unlike the original story, I think it validates the struggles of most of the characters and makes the story directly about one of it's main themes again.

Now it's important that the story wouldn't go back on all these arcs and development because that would just repeat the Buu saga problem of leading to thematic contradiction and confusion.