#grrm should have had used those arrows and made them fail

[sherlokiness]

At its apex Valyria was the greatest city in the known world, the center of civilization. Within its shining walls, twoscore rival houses vied for power and glory in court and council, rising and falling in an endless, subtle, oft-savage struggle for dominance. The Targaryens were far from the most powerful of the dragonlords, and their rivals saw their flight to Dragonstone as an act of surrender, as cowardice.

I'm sorry but Targaryens were not that poweful compared to other dragonlords. The Starks were Kings of the North for thousands of years so if we really wanna go there then Sansa with her Stark blood is far more noble than Daenerys.

Sansa fans have to debate with so many different factions of the fandom over so many topics that they've just naturally become the most knowledgeable community.

I guarantee you, the average Sansa fan knows more about this series than the guy spending three hours of his Sunday reading theories about Dark Sister.

[queenaryastark]

George RR Martin: dragons are weapons of mass destruction, they're symbols of destruction and not of rebuilding, it's why the targaryens lost their power because their rule was built on fear and when the dragons died it only took a small spark to cause a rebellion, daenerys should read fire and blood so she can learn how not to use dragons daenerys herself: dragons plant no trees, If they are monsters than so am I Yall: i cant read suddenly i dont know

LMAO! I can’t even call that paraphrasing since this jumble of out of context gibberish completely misinterprets GRRM’s words and intent. 

First off, no one said dragons weren’t weapons of mass destruction. Them being powerful weapons is pretty obvious. Them being weapons does not erase the violence and cruelty of characters who do not have them. The mass destruction the Starks and Lannisters have wrought against the Riverlands and Westerlands was done without the aid of dragons. So was the mass destruction the Greyjoys and Boltons wrought on the North. The Tyrells were able to commit mass murder by cutting off food supplies, which led to mass starvation, which was their specific intent. 

Dragons are dangerous. Obviously. So are people, as George R. R. Martin goes out of his way to tell us in every chapter of his work. The man literally depicts Robb, Stannis, Balon, and Joffrey as equally as violent toward the common people and the land of Westeros. He even gives Dany this metaphoric image of the four of them:

“In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.” -- A Clash Of Kings

And that is far from the only time he frames them in an equally negative light given their level of mass destruction.

when the dragons died it only took a small spark to cause a rebellion, daenerys should read fire and blood so she can learn how not to use dragons

You think Dany should read Fire and Blood? I agree. I hope she gets a copy once she arrives to save Westeros from the warlords, opportunistic politicians, and the Others. Though you should probably try to find someone who can read it to you and explain what all the big words mean. If you look in that book, you will see that the Targaryens became extremely popular and loved. They decreased the amount of war and destruction, they streamlined the laws, they established roads, and they removed a couple of the abuses that were the norm. They were far from perfect. But in that imperfection, Dany could learn from them too. 

As for a “small spark” causing a rebellion as soon as they didn’t have dragons... *sighs* If you don’t know about a topic, that’s fine. Not everyone can be an expert on every topic. But you Sansa stans (yes I know you’re a Sansa stan and you probably have that hideous image of ST with her trademark vacant expression and that ugly ferret crown as your icon) should actually fact check yourselves before trying and failing to present yourselves as an authority on anything. The last dragon died in 153 AC. The Targaryens were overthrown in 283 AC. Even before 153 AC, the dragons that lived either weren’t under their control, were pretty young, or were deformed. In other words, they continued to rule Westeros without dragons for a significant amount of time. In that time, not only did they rule, but they were able to bring Dorne into the realm peacefully. 

Even the wars they had were far fewer than the amount of constant wars that happened while the kingdoms were separate. The Blackfyre Rebellions were sparked by Westerosi racism and xenophobia against the Dornish, as well as the greed and opportunism from the Andal/First Men supporters of the Blackfyre claimant. Notice how in those rebellions the people of Westeros supported either the Targaryens or the Targaryen blooded Blackfyres? No matter which side the lords took, they were supporting a Targaryen because they support that family. Like in real life civil wars, they just supported different members of that same royal line. It wasn’t because they feared them. They wanted their rule. They just wanted the rule of a specific claimant over another based on their own values or what they thought they could gain from a change in Targaryen leadership.

Even with the Baratheon rebellions, they were still Targaryen blooded claimants. With Lyonel Baratheon, he felt his family was insulted when an engagement between the crown prince and his daughter was broken so the prince could marry a peasant. This might seem like a “small spark”, but this would have been considered hugely offensive by the classist nobility. Note how this rebellion was resolved incredibly easily to the point where I don’t even think it warrants being labeled an actual rebellion. It seems more like it was set up for the next Baratheon rebellion since it resulted in that House gaining even more Targaryen blood than it already had. That’s the thing, the nobility wanted their children to marry Targaryens. Doesn’t sound very fearful, does it?

Robert’s Rebellion wasn’t set off by a “small spark”. The kidnapping and rape of the Lord of Winterfell’s daughter and the betrothed of the Lord of Storm’s End is not insignificant. It also didn’t set off the rebellion. The murders of multiple lords and their heirs is also not a small thing. It didn’t set off the rebellion either. What set it off was the combination of those two events with the demand for the executions of the new Lord of Winterfell and the Lord of Storm’s End. Those events taken separately are not small sparks and they certainly aren’t small when put together. It took something HUGE to make a big part of the realm turn on the Targaryens. Even still, the rebels were in the minority since most of the other regions either stayed out of the conflict waiting to see how it played out or stayed loyal to the Targaryens. If Tywin had continued to stay out of the conflict, the Rebellion could have lasted indefinitely with either side winning since the Crown’s forces outnumbered them and occupied the Stormlands. 

You also seem to miss the fact that quite a few people in Westeros are still Targaryen Loyalists and want to restore them to the throne. You even miss the fact that Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen’s claim comes from their Targaryen blood. 

So no, the Targaryen rule was not based purely on fear. They clearly retained loyalty and love without the benefit of dragons as weapons.

daenerys herself: dragons plant no trees, If they are monsters than so am I

It’s funny how you can try to quote the book while having no understanding of the passage you’re quoting. Here’s the paragraph you’re referring to:

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought.Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros?I am the blood of the dragon, she thought.If they are monsters, so am I. -- ADWD

This takes place in Dany’s second chapter of A Dance With Dragons after she has captured and chained two of her dragons and failed to capture the third. Why is she trying to chain them? Because Drogon killed one (1) child. That’s right. Not only is Dany compensating the people for the sheep her dragons were eating. She has no tolerance for them killing innocents. The quote above is not her glorying in the destructive power of the dragons. Nor is she going around without an ounce of guilt for terrorizing, maiming, and murdering innocents the way Robb, Balon, Stannis, Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei, and every other leader in Westeros does. That is what this passage is PROVING. Seriously, using the “If they are monsters, so am I” quote is proving that Dany has guilt over the life her dragon has taken and that she has taken steps to prevent that from happening again. Compare that to Tyrion’s complete lack of care when it comes to the mass murder his family is causing:

"A lordling down from the Trident, says your father's men burned his keep, raped his wife, and killed all his peasants."

"I believe they call that war." -- Tyrion, ACOK

While Dany is trying to preserve lives, the mass murdering leaders of Westeros see murder and rape as the norm and completely acceptable. Even the noble Robb Stark tried to move the carnage that he and Tywin were inflicting on the Riverlands into the Westerlands and was upset that his plan to do so was partly thwarted by Edmure. His issue wasn’t with the common people suffering and dying. He just wanted the suffering and dying to happen to the common people of the Westerlands (the ones who hadn’t been forced into service as arrow fodder by the Lannisters yet) instead. Yet, you’re trying to use Dany’s guilt at one (1) child being killed by her dragon as proof of...something?

As for Dany not planting trees, yes, she fears that’s something Targaryens can’t do. But the text shows that her ancestors could and did. Dany is also planting trees in ADWD and was in the process of making Vaes Tolorro bloom in ACOK before she was invited to Qarth. The Golden Company (who wants to put her and Aegon on the Iron Throne as a pair) are even upset because they think she’s only interested in planting trees in Meereen.

When analyzing a literary work you have to understand that what the characters fear and the guilt they feel are not signs of their permanent situations. They’re signs of their internal obstacles that will be overcome in their arcs. Dany fears her dragons and fears herself and fears that she won’t be able to achieve peace and positive societal growth. Its good that she fears these things because this shows she acknowledges these issues so they can be overcome. The current Westeros leadership don’t see the issue in their mass murdering, which is an issue all on it’s own. 

Its alright if this series is above your comprehension level. There are books out there for you to read that are better suited for your capabilities, like Hop on Pop or Green Eggs and Ham. It’s probably best if you stick to those.

[iheartbookbran]

in what world has Jaime done as many shitty things as Cersei... he's totally done shitty things, but Cersei is really out here having people tortured, abusing her children, killing babies, raping her teenage cousin, the list goes on? by all means let's hold Jaime to account but this saying he's done 'as many shitty things as Cersei' is honestly like comparing Theon to Euron

Hi anon! I think you’re referring to this post I reblogged about Cersei, in which I said in the tags that Tyrion and Jaime are objectively as shitty.

Ok listen, full on disclaimer here, but I’m not the biggest Jaime fan out there, and I’m by no means an expert on his character, so (in general) take everything I say about him with a grain of salt, but, while Jaime may not have as much blood in his hands as Cersei, I’ll concede you that point, he’s also not a king regent, like Cersei, with huge amounts of liberty—at least at first— to commit war crimes to his hear’s content. He really hasn’t had that much agency in general across the books, with him being a prisoner of war and then being dragged around the Riverlands by Brienne or being taken hostage... again. What readers trend to forget about Jaime is that when does have the agency, as of the start of aGoT, he’s more than a willing participant in Cersei’s schemes.

Yeah sure, he feels bad about it, and he justifies it by saying that he does it because he loves Cersei and wants to protect her, but to that I have to say...

Also I’m gonna disagree in one of the things you listed Cersei has done and Jaime hasn’t.

That is “killing babies�� because Jaime doesn’t really show any qualms about harming children? Bran being the biggest example, of course. The only reason he isn’t dead is because he’s got big plot armor. Still, I feel this often gets ignored when discussing Jaime’s character because Bran didn’t die while ignoring the physical and emotional damage he’s suffering as a result, including deep depression. And just because an attempted murder failed doesn’t negate the fact that Jaime still pushed a 7 year old child out of a window with the clear intention of killing him.

He’s also not opposed to maiming children. He was more than willing to cut off Arya’s hand after the Trident incident:

"Do you see that window, ser?" Jaime used a sword to point. "That was Raymun Darry's bedchamber. Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. (...) The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry's bed after stepping over Robert. (...) "As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, 'I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." The things I do for love. "It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ."—aFoC, Jaime IV.

And yeah, he again justifies it on his need to please Cersei, but that’s not good enough for me, not by a long shot.

Same as this....

Edmure raised his hands from the tub and watched the water run between his fingers. "And if I will not yield?"

Must you make me say the words? (...) "You've seen our numbers, Edmure. You've seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former bannermen will make up the first wave of attackers, so you'll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades. When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I'll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I'm done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here." Jaime got to his feet. "Your wife may whelp before that. You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet."

Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. (...) With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?—aFoC, Jaime VI.

Charming lol. Don’t forget that he’s doing all this while he tells himself that he’s keeping the oath he made to Catelyn about not harming her kin, and the riverlords as an extension, and at the same time defending and giving legitimacy to a hideous unlawful act that Jaime himself, deep down, condones, and yet there he is, waging war against the Tullys. And threatening to trebuchet Edmure’s baby while he’s at it.

I think that my biggest problem with Jaime is exactly that, his willingness to be complicit in all of his family’s wrongdoings and even rationalize his involvement. Like you also mentioned Cersei raping her teenage cousin, and that 100% should not be ignored (though funnily enough, Jaime uses Cersei “infidelity” if you can call it that to slut-shame her lmao, but their relationship is messed up like that). Now Jaime is one of the only male characters that acknowledge marital rape is a thing, that’s good, but at the same time his hold on concent is... shaky at best imo.

With his relationship with Cersei there are some glaring examples:

“Stop it,” she said. “Stop it, stop it, oh please…” But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away.—aGoT, Bran II.

“No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck. “Not here. The septons…”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned.—aSoS, Jaime VII.

This is a problem with Cersei as well. Both twins have issues accepting that no means no. And even going beyond that, there’s the whole Tysha fiasco and Jaime’s involvement on it.

"She was no whore. I never bought her for you. That was a lie that Father commanded me to tell. Tysha was . . . she was what she seemed to be. A crofter's daughter, chance met on the road."

Tyrion could hear the faint sound of his own breath whistling hollowly through the scar of his nose. Jaime could not meet his eyes. Tysha. He tried to remember what she had looked like. A girl, she was only a girl, no older than Sansa. "My wife," he croaked. "She wed me."

"For your gold, Father said. She was lowborn, you were a Lannister of Casterly Rock. All she wanted was the gold, which made her no different from a whore, so . . . so it would not be a lie, not truly, and . . . he said that you required a sharp lesson. That you would learn from it, and thank me later . . ."—ASOS, Tyrion XI.

Yes, Jaime, and she was also a teenage girl, who was gang raped on your father’s command, in front of your 13 year old brother who later was forced to participate (and people forget Tyrion was a victim here too).

I mean Jaime is a victim of his father’s abuse the same way his siblings are, but he’s also a full grown adult, more than capable of recognizing right from wrong, yet he still chosen to side with his family and be complicit to their crimes. Sometimes you can be guilty of what you don’t do, not only of what you do.

Of course, it’s kinda unfair to make a complete judgment just yet because his story is not finished, so he might make a turn in that regard, but that really hasn’t happened as far as the books go? Other than him deciding not to go to Cersei because he feels betrayed that she slept with other men. Oh the irony of him turning on her the one time she legitimately needs him to protect her from an actual injustice instead of him inflicting terror on others per her wishes.

I think it’s interesting that GRRM even gives Jaime this opportunity to grow, while he never extends the same courtesy to Cersei. That Jaime spents so much time away from his family—and by extension of Cersei—is a huge factor in that, but I do wonder what would have happened if he didn’t have the fallout with Cersei, if he had been in that position of power to continue the affair with his sister, to what lengths he would have gone to keep her, and that’s why I, personally, believe that he can be, or rather is, as bad as Cersei.