#frideswide lovell

[wonder-worker]

richardiii and frideswide lovell? I am only just hearing of this

Hi! We don't know the truth and don't know the exact details, but yes, that's definitely a (potential) relationship worth discussing!

For those who are unaware, Frideswide Lovell was the daughter of John, 8th Baron Lovell, and his wife Joan Beaumont. This made her the sister of Francis Lovell, the future chamberlain and best friend of Richard III - who she may have had a personal connection to in her own right.

Frideswide seems to have been much younger than her siblings and was not born before 1363, most likely in 1464. She was orphaned soon after her birth, with her father dying a year later and her mother a year after that, leaving her to spend her childhood and adolescence in the household of her brother's parents-in-law. The first properly contemporary mention of her is found in the 1470 pardon Edward IV's government issued for Henry FitzHugh and all those in his household. Unfortunately, not much is known about her beyond that, including the kind of education she received.

When she was around 16, Frideswide married the 15-year-old Edward Norris, oldest son of William Norris of Yattendon and his first wife Joan/Jane de Vere. The teenage couple had their first son, John, in 1481, followed by a second son, Henry, a year later. The latter would be executed in 1536 as one of Anne Boleyn's alleged lovers.

Here's where it gets interesting. As we know, Richard III became King in 1483 after deposing his nephews. Michèle Schindler, author of the book Lovell Our Dogge: The Life of Viscount Lovell, Closest Friend of Richard III and Failed Regicide, has speculated that Richard may have been having an affair with Frideswide, aka his best friend's sister, during that time.

To quote Schindler from a blog post about Frideswide:

In 1483, Frideswide received a "reward" of 50 marks from Richard III after he was crowned king. Perhaps it was this, her support and closeness to her brother`s close friend, that caused a rift between her and her husband, and the couple was divided over political opinions which they needed some time to overcome. Edward`s father William, who had originally supported the Lancastrian cause, had accepted Edward IV as king, but rebelled against Richard [in support of the Princes in the Tower] in autumn 1483. Edward Norris may have supported this, though he never acted against Richard, while Frideswide seemed to support Richard.

However, there is evidence from 1484 which throws a rather different light on Frideswide`s marriage and her relationship to Richard. While her "reward" from 1483 could well have been simply a gesture of friendship by the new king towards his closest friend`s sister, their interactions clearly did not stop there. In August 1484, Richard granted her an annuity of 100 marks, a rather large sum. While this has traditionally been assumed to have been because of her father-in-law`s rebellion, leaving her husband disinherited, this does not seem to have been the cause. None of William`s other children, nor his wife, was granted anything by Richard.

Naturally, it could be that Richard chose to favour Francis`s sister over the rest of her marital family, but this is contradicted by two facts: one, that the grant was for unspecified "services" to the king, not, as that to other traitor`s relatives, as a compensation, a generous gift by the king. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, is that a second grant of an annuity of 100 marks was made from the same venue, dating from 10th January 1485. This grant was not a confirmation of the first, but was added to it, meaning that Frideswide received 200 marks yearly from Richard, a sizable sum, more than the Countess of Oxford, or even his own mother-in-law, received.

The key to this may lie in the fact that the second grant was dated back nine months, and appears to have been made just after Frideswide gave birth to her third child, a daughter called Anne. Very notably, the grants to her, for unspecified services to the king, have the same wording as one to Katherine Haute, a woman often assumed to have been the mother of Richard`s illegitimate daughter Katherine, Richard made years earlier.

Equally notable is that Richard made grants to Francis on the same days as he made those to Frideswide, as a compensation for equally unspecified services, and that Frideswide appeared to have lived with her brother [rather than her husband] while pregnant.

That Henry Norris, in later years, appeared to not treat Anne as his sister, and that William Norris, Edward`s father, later favoured Frideswide`s sons, even apparently helping them become established at court, but not Anne, might also point towards the idea that there was at least a question mark over Anne`s paternity, and that she may have been Richard`s.

If so, Frideswide was in a bad position after Richard`s defeat and death at Bosworth only eight and a half months after her daughter`s birth. It seems, though, that she and her husband Edward made the best of it, and even reconcilliated. In around 1486, Frideswide gave birth to her last child, a girl called Margaret, presumably after Edward`s sister. From surviving documents, Margaret seemed much closer to her brother Henry and her grandfather William, again showing up a difference to Anne."

Of course, we don't explicitly know if this is true - and if it is true, we don't know the exact details - but the circumstantial evidence is indeed very strong, and it seems very plausible to me. I would love to know more about Frideswide, who seems to have had a very interesting and tragic, albeit mostly unknown, life.

In short, it's very interesting and opens up a lot of possibilities, for sure!

[the-romantic-lady]

I've seen some people commenting that Richard III wasn't as faithful to Anne Neville as many historians say because one of his children was conceived after his relationship with her, but I've only found one source, who is not very trustworthy, saying that. What do you think? How do you think their relationship was like? It's so sad that we don't know more about her, but they seemed pretty close.

Personal relationships are always hard to read into. So we know that Richard III had two illegitimate children. John and Katherine. Katherine was married in 1484 but it is unclear if she was old enough to be bedded (14) so we can't exactly assume her birth year. I would assume she probably was but Richard was king so I could see the Earl of Pembroke trying to marry her no matter the age. Hard to say. John was made Captain of Calais and given all powers of it except for appointing officers until he was 21. So we know he was younger than 21 but that should be given considering Richard would have to be 11 at the time of John's conception then. So basically we know nothing about their mother or their birth years.

One of Richard's older brothers Edmund Earl of Rutland was appointed Lord Chancellor of Ireland at the age of 8. However he was given deputies to carry out the duties. John of Gloucester was not. So we can assume he might older that 12 to be given as much responsibility as he was? He was knighted in 1483 and interestingly most boys were around 15 or 16 when they were knighted. But Richard himself was knighted at the age of 9 so who knows. In my opinion, both Katherine and John must have been around 14-16. That adds up with them being born around 1468-1470 which was around the time, he was young and single. It makes sense. I think most historians accept this.

However, I too have read some historians bring up more possibilities. One of the things is that if Richard did have bastards whilst he was with Anne, we would hardly know. Most illegitimate children became apparent once they got older and they would have been quite young. One of my friends who is a historian speculates that Richard possibly had an affair with one of his best friend's sister. Now hear me out since it makes a lot of sense.

So this woman name Frideswide Norris was the sister of Francis Lovel, Richard's best friend. He gave her money for "special considerations". We could say that was because she was his friend's sister. Ok fine. But then around Easter 1484, he granted an annuity of 100 marks which is A LOT of money. Then in January 1485, she gave birth and he doubled that amount. If a child was born in January, they would likely be concieved around Easter. Interestingly, this was also around the time that rumours of his affair with his niece spread around. So it suggests that he might have been engaging in extra marital affairs. Their son, Edward, passed away on Easter 1484 (coincidence?) and then Anne become ill around Christmas 1484.

My theory is that after their son passed, Richard and Anne drifted apart. The Croyland chronicle indicates how devasted they were and how later, many would hear the King and Queen quarrelling. Ofc, this was taken out of proportion later to suggest that Richard would "posion her with words". But I assume that their relationship was falling apart. So its possible that after their son's death, Anne and Richard lost the affection and Richard sought it elsewhere. Maybe around Christmas, he told her and that contributed to her getting worse. And around that same time, some speculated that Richard was sleeping with his niece possibly because he was sleeping around. It seems to add up.

But one thing to note is the shock many chroniclers had at these suggestions. I can't remember which one but he says that the King's physicians told him to not sleep with the Queen. Which meant that he mostly did sleep with her. Also, they really stuck together. And Richard's bastard children might have been raised at Middleham where Richard and Anne lived. She must have been forgiving to allow that. And their marriage was self-determined on both sides (Anne actually chose to marry Richard regardless of the reason).

To put all this together, this is my picture of it. They had affection and respect for each other. After Richard found Anne "trapped" under his brother, he put her in sanctuary for her to make her decision. Ofc, she would love to marry the brother of the King (a duke) and make claim to her share of her inheritance. So they marry for mutual benefits and live a calm life in Middleham. They seemed equally religious and an intelligent couple. And then in 1483, the test comes for their relationship. At this point, I think their relationship lost the stability and thus the need to be with each other. And so Richard began sleeping around and rumors of his affair with his niece spread. Their marriage was more or less over. Unfortunately, Anne died and I am sure that must have been a blow to him. But like every other relationship, it must have been complicated but I am sure that he loved her. He had respect for her and stayed by her for a long time. They had one son and clause of divorce when they married but he stuck with her. The last few years of both their lives must have been hell and I am sure that reflected on their relationship.

But you know, what's most telling for me? That when Anne was sick and on her deathbed, he stayed with her. He did no official business (he was king!) and stayed by her. They both liked reading so I am sure, he sat by her bedside and read to her. His time was for her and this indicated love to me. Love is more than sex (especially since sex was viewed as a necessity for young noblemen rather than its associations with love that we have now) and even if he cheated on her, the fact that he valued her enough to give her time amongst the chaos of kingship indicates to me that he loved her. If not as a wife but as a friend and companion for sure. I find it quite poignant that he never visited the place where she died once he left because he died only 5 months after her.

This is way too long lol. But I love speculating on medieval romantic relationships. Its fun :D and so thought provoking.

[dark-beer-to-wash-it-down]

Oh my...

http://francislovell.blogspot.com/2018/07/frideswide-lovell-norris.html#comment-form

Ok this is absolutely fasciniating for multiple reasons. One: Yes, there might be the possibilty that there's another illegitimate child of Richard that we previously didn't know about. Whose descendants could be traced to the present day.

Two: Of course with it there's also the uncomfortable possibilty that Richard wasn't 100% faithful to Anne. This might seem kinda risqué on the surface but allow me to get all feely and hyper-speculative about this...

Frideswide received the first annuity of 100 Marks in August 1484, suggesting it was discovered that she was pregnant. Of course we can't know when their liason started (if they had one in the first place that is), but the pregnancy would've hit in the 5 month aftermath of Edward of Middleham's death.

Here's were it gets speculative: I find it likely that Richard would be compelled to seek comfort elsewhere because Anne might have been too distraught with grief herself. This really happens to a lot of couples who are struck with bereavement; the relationship becomes too heavy and burdensome and sometimes it falls apart all together. Not that Anne and Richard didn't love each other til the end (the little evidence we do have actually supports this notion) but FUCK there was just so much pressure on them at that time that it makes a lot of sense to think that their relationship (or at least some aspects) suffered as a result.

And then the baby was named „Anne“

Yes. The angst is strong with this one.