#forgiveness shouldnt be the endgoal at all its literally unachievable

[wickedpact]

I saw someone comment that if nicky and joe actually had a speed-run version of a romance it wouldn't be much better than rey/kylo (ie: nicky's redemption should be a *process* and not a single act; it'd take more than just "i'm switching sides and fighting with you" for joe to truly forgive him... which is ENTIRELY reasonable/understandable) - do you think the comparison is fair? (I mean, Nicky wasn't a space nazi but he WAS an indoctrinated religious radical)

well..... no, for a variety of reasons (allow me to say beforehand that i dont really... hate r*ylo or r*ylo in general but im.. hm, not a fan of the ship or the sequel trilogy)

edit: i am actually going to put this under a cut bc its longer than i thought it was when i wrote it

first of all i think theres something to be said abt the fact that ben (im just gonna call him ben so this post doesnt come up in search) is a space nazi. hes part of a fictional group of people who oppress a different fictional group of people, despite having some inspiration taken from rl. nicky was part of an invasion force that existed in real history, a part of a war that has had far-reaching effects in the real world to this day. as much as nicolo himself is fictional, neither the crusades nor the ideologies that had a part in fueling them are. so it feels a bit crass to compare the two.

(also like.. man, the sith blew up two (three?) planets. thats like several billion people each, how are you supposed to compare almost cartoonish villainy like that to real life?)

secondly ben had like... presumably more power over the situation than nicky did, idk what the situation is for ben’s backstory in canon terms rn, (its been more or less retconned a couple times i believe), but ben was the child of two powerful and privileged people and likely received all the education in the world on why Murder And Fascism Bad.

he was like? supposedly groomed by snoke, but what does that even mean? anakin went to the dark side bc he valued the life of his wife more than the lives of all the jedi. simple as that. he was manipulated but he still willingly assisted in a genocide to achieve his own personal goals, how can you just step back and say ‘ben was manipulated into it its not his fault’ when he no doubt knew better that Blowing Up Planets Bad. but then even on top of that.. .we dont really know nicky’s exact situation prior to the crusades which brings me to the next point,

what we know abt nicky’s mindset in the crusades era:

greg said once that ‘it was a time of religious hatred’ which is. vague.

one of the promo vids said nicky was ‘ a young knight who had left the priesthood behind to follow the crusade ‘ which is.. vague

nicky himself said ‘he was taught to hate’ joe’s ‘people’ which is... vague

the comics shows a dialogue-less couple of panels of joe and nicky killing each other which is..................... vague

we really dont know that much about nicky’s situation other than he was ‘taught to hate’, which is how all hatred works, hatred isnt a biologically ingrained behavior, its always taught. ‘taught to hate’ can mean everything from someone slapping him on the back one day and going ‘hey those muslims suck’ to full ass brainwashing, who tf knows. we can only guess based off historical information, and tog has proven itself to not be historically accurate several times over now. so you really cant compare nicky’s mindset to ben’s bc we dont know what nicky’s mindset was.

but even then theres a difference between ‘i was taught incorrect information and i formerly believed i was doing a good thing and i now am beginning to realize that i am not’ and ‘ive been knowingly evil (literally red lightsaber and all) for literal years but ive just decided to change my mind bc i had a vision of my father (whomst i murdered) asking me to be good again’

(i mean come on, ben was actively resisting his good impulses. ‘forgive me i feel the pull to the light again’. )

lastly i also dont think thats fair to tog bc i wouldnt count r*ylo as a ‘speedrun’. it was set up in tlj, the problem with r*ylo is that it was bounced between two directors who not only had different visions for the franchise, but conflicting visions for the franchise and? seemingly they didnt collaborate at all. so if it feels like ben and rey were ping pong-ing back and forth between being enemies and borderline-lovers, its bc they were created by two men with completely different ideas of what the relationship looked like + they were at the mercy of a company which has pretty singlemindedly dedicated itself to lowest-common-denominator media that offends Nobody and thus tried to pass them off as pseudo-canon so neither the shippers nor the antis would get Mad. tog doesnt have these problems.

i think the idea of joe and nicky blinking once at each other and just immediately falling in love is, while fun and hilarious, a bit silly realistically bc thats generally not how feelings Work (I Dont Believe In Love At First Sight). going on a 24hr murder-bender and immediately going ‘oh wait im actually in love with this person who just brutally murdered me’ isnt comparable to two people who have a couple hours’ worth of content focused around essentially being inside of eachother’s brains and learning why the other Is The Way They Are. r*ylo didnt come out of nowhere, it was lead up to (just really poorly)

realistically, i think joe and nicky would like. at least have to get to know each other a little before they could convincingly fall in love imo, but theres rlly nothing comparable there with ben and rey to me