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elysian-entries · 4 years ago

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One film, two visions; The Justice League

It’s 2017; the highly anticipated “Justice League” film, directed by Zack Snyder, is set to be released later in the year as a continuation of the DCEU.

A blockbuster movie showcasing the biggest DC characters uniting. Taking down the ultimate super villain; bound to fulfil millions of past and present children’s, as well as current adults and elderly dreams.

Then a fork in the road appears, Snyder and his wife, Deborah, step down from the colossal project due to the incredibly woeful loss of their daughter, Autumn. News hits the fans like a brick. Resulting in Joss Whedon and the Warner Bros. Studio stepping up to the mantle. Or at least attempting to.

Whedon's theatrical cut lost Warner Bros. Pictures approximately $60 million dollars. With overall painfully negative reviews and reception. Breaking the hearts of DC fans everywhere.

4 years, campaigns, hashtags, sky banners, petitions, and billboards later; I can’t say how many of us would have predicted receiving the holy gift that is the “Snyder Cut”, in its full 4 hour running time glory (in a 4:3 ratio, which somehow adds to the grandeur). 4 years of dedicated, passionate and determined people helping in any way they can for the cause. It was a journey to behold.

A large section in Snyder’s 4 hour venture is used to build dimension and depth in the characters. Making an absolute world of a difference. Something that was sorely lacking in Whedon's cut. The film had a completely different feel and atmosphere instantly.

There's no better example of increased depth in characters than Cyborg's (Ray Fisher's) narrative. I was engaged, and intrigued by his story. In Whedon’s cut, he isn't even given a second thought. His entire backstory was cut as well as his father's important role also being stripped. His scene where he sacrificed himself in order for them to find the mother box was gone. And it took away such an important, integral part in Cyborgs story, and in the film in general I believe and also realised having seen the two movies; the complicated but delicately developing relationship between father and son. And just the whole story in general made such a difference in Snyder's cut, it really is almost indescribable the difference it made. It just felt so much more genuine and heartfelt. Like a real developed and executed narrative.

In Snyder's cut we were shown detailed flashbacks that fully fleshed out his character, his morals and his relationships. Creating a much needed deeper connection with the audience. We experience his conflicting journey to accepting his responsibility, accepting the past, the "gift he has", and his purpose in the league. Leading into receiving closure. He was given great and meaningful importance and purpose in this cut.

Similarly, Ezra Miller's Flash was too given a largely more meaningful and impactful role that left quite the impression on me. His character was light-hearted and charming but still had those important, emotionally impactful scenes. Which were painfully lacking in Whedon's cut. I was left loving Barry Allen a lot more than I already did. Barry's scenes with his wrongly convicted father were hard hitting for me. They also play a large part in making later scenes more impactful. Like his detrimental importance during the final fight. In Whedon's cut his big hero moment was saving a Russian family. The overall the inclusion of the family was superfluous and extraneous, along with the robber at the start and many other things. Not only that but Whedon's cut gave the Flash a silly, attempted comical relief role. To be fair he attempted to give everybody a comical relief role. Which hardly worked because none of the attempts were actually funny and were at time agonizing. It ultimately lacked substance and came across as almost immature. The scene where Barry went on about brunch was painful. Leading me to ask, why? Why was this so important to film Whedon?

After re-watching Whedon’s version, I had gained a new found appreciation for Snyder's representation of Barry. '"Make your own future, make your own past"; he echoes his father’s words. "Your son really was one of them, the best of the best," as his theme "At the Speed of Force" plays in the background of this pivotal moment. A powerful scene reflecting Barry's ulterior motive, doing his father proud. Which invoked many tears. And still does whenever I re-watch the scene or listen to the song. As if it were the first time experiencing it. Thomas Holkenborg's soundtrack truly amplified emotion and made the scenes much more powerful, It makes for one of the absolute best scenes in the movie; I'd say one of, if not my absolute favourite.

His job in charging up Victor was completely removed and I have to wonder why. Instead Barry was left to participate in "bug duty" (bugs being one of his fears also). Barry's role in Snyder's cut, and that one incredible scene where he broke the rule was arguably better than Whedon's Justice League as a whole.

I think the only scene in Whedon's cut involving Barry that I thought was actually meaningful was where he was faced with his first real mission. And he was confronted with his fears of "obnoxiously tall" beings. He appeared anxious and frantic. Fearful. Communicating to us his inexperience. And Batman simply told him to just "save one". To which he then, without struggle, saved them all. And was also able to participate in the final battle. The "save one" scene made those achievements more meaningful.

The scene after they won the battle, showcases the victorious team standing proud; and Barry with a sweet, goofy, golden retriever-esque smile plastered on his face. What a loveable smile.

An interesting contrast is the scene in where Barry reveals to his father his new position at an “actual job”. In Snyder’s cut the father was absolutely over the moon, shouting at the top of his lungs, "his foot is in the door!" repeatedly in excitement. It tugged at my heart strings; his shameless pride in his son. Making me wonder how he would have shown his pride if he found out Barry saved the whole Earth and humanity. We can assume Barry had that unequivocally powerful underlying thought too. Contributing to his saccharine reaction. In Whedon’s cut the reaction was softer and more timid but nonetheless a sweet moment. Barry becoming bashful.

It was a sweet touch to have Cyborg and Flash finally fist bump during that victorious scene after Victor rejected Barry's initial advance in Whedon's cut. Ezra Miller improvising that “racially charged” line, acknowledging the possible racism attached to a fist bump I assume. The whole fist bumping being "racially charged" was not included in Snyder's cut. The grave digging scene was entirely different. Which I far more preferred. It was a group excursion. With a little positive interaction between the Atlantean and the Amazonian. And funnier, more light-hearted dialogue between Barry and Victor.

Aquaman’s contrast was interesting. In Whedon’s cut he actually sought out to obtain the trident to help the league (although he was always disagreeing with them). Compared to Snyder; where he was apprehensive and had to be hesitantly persuaded by Willem Dafoe’s character Vulko (who was completely absent from Whedon’s cut). This was also an importantly established relationship by Snyder. Arthur first makes his desire to help the the team known saving them from the water rushing from Gotham Harbour. He isn't acknowledged in the theatrical cut but in Snyder's cut Diana notices and takes a moment to take in his presence (I assume?). Then Barry asks who that guy is. And of course we all know, it's Aquaman.

I particularly liked how Snyder chose to include Barry asking for Arthur's opinion on military hats. It's an odd, minimalistic thing to include - the reasoning as to why I like it. I also thought it was quite charming.

A scene I think deserves a mention is when Aquaman is first introduced, and then rejects Bruce's offer, he then makes his way back into the ocean. A farewell song is performed. This was quite early in the film and I think the voices being hauntingly beautiful, yet slightly eerie/poignant set the perfect atmosphere. A well done scene.

His overall character was also contrasting. He became a genuine hero who was proved capable of more than water powers and silly moments. Including that god-awful lasso of truth scene. In the theatrical cut he was bitter, a bit of a joke, not caring too much about the events that were unfolding. He had more of a heroes’ sense of purpose within Snyder’s cut.

Gal Gadot did not gain too much from the extra scenes. Though different to the theatrical cut, Snyder had paired her with a repetitive character establishing theme. It could be referred to as ancient lamentation music. Hauntingly beautiful. Something I could only assume would be the battle cries of the Amazonian warriors and the Amazonian warrior inside Diana. In some ways possibly over used, though I thought it was brilliant. It has a special place in my heart because I love that type of soundtrack. The almost eerie, maybe poignant but overall emotion provoking type. Especially her introduction scene where she faces off against the terrorists )which was overall better in Snyder's cut) The haunting warrior moans fade into her classic theme to create an incredible atmosphere. And that atmosphere was definitely missing in Whedon's cut, in more than just that one scene. It was also sorely lacking the lamentation music. We also didn't get that sweet interaction between Diana and the little girl.

When Diana began detailing Steppenwolf and the mother boxes past to Bruce, the cuts were very strange and abrupt/awkward in some way. And it felt silly and rushed; and I think that perfectly describes the whole film.

Whedon's cut also included uncomfortable scenes. Almost forcing characters to be funny where it was just completely out of place and character. Or just downright inappropriate. To be fair, Whedon is known for the Marvel movies in which fourth wall dimension breaking and odd self ware/ironic jokes are heavily used. One of the main reasons I don't particularly enjoy them, but rather enjoy the darker, more meaningful DC movies. I say meaningful in the way in which we are completely transported into this universe; where it's taken seriously and has obvious effects and meaning to the characters. Compared to Whedon's Marvel films in which the threat is joked about and the characters make fun at their expense.

Another negative contrast is the colour grading and overall shots. A good example is the conversation between Lois Lane and Martha Kent. In Whedon's version the colour is poppy, reminiscent of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or The Office. As if it were an empty shell of a TV show. Lacking any artistic or symbolic aspects. Whereas Snyder's conversation between Martha Kent (who was actually Martian Manhunter) and Lois Lane was beautiful. The lighting was dim, with steam from their hot coffee creating a brilliant shot and conveying the perfect mood. Almost a piece of art. A lot of Snyder's cut looked as if it were ripped straight out of an incredible graphic novel. His talent when it comes to filmmaking is grandiloquent. Compared to Whedon's over saturated and flat scenes as if it were from a cliché sitcom.

Whedon also made the Justice League a lot more dysfunctional than it needed to be.

The scene where the team unanimously come up with the plan to revive Superman seemed really silly and lackluster in Whedon's cut. In Snyder's cut it was a genuine moment. A "wow" moment where the penny dropped. It gave me goose-bumps. The way it was implied, the explanation/analogy with the house, and then Cyborg creating a Superman visual as the team, standing around the table, stared at it in awe. All thinking the same thing. Without even having to say it (as Barry pointed out) It was a uniting moment. Whedon's version was just, disappointing. Lacking any impact at all. And it made the team seem disconnected in a way. Whereas in Snyder's scene the league's thoughts were in unison.

There was also an agonizing amount of Wonder Woman praise. I think praise is a...well...nicer way of putting it. It was more so adolescent boy humour, immature if you will; with her being the butt of the joke. To the point where it was little uncomfortable and borderline unnecessary. And to another point where Gal Gadot refused to do a scene, (the one where Flash lands on her) and Whedon insisted so much on still including it - that they used a body double. A scene so stupid and pointless it actually hurts. Why, Whedon?

Superman's main feature in this film is his moustache. Or, lack thereof. At the beginning of the theatrical cut, we witness the infamous Superman film scene, where we are introduced to his CGI moustache…then “Everybody Knows” by Sigrid plays as we see the aftermath of his death. I really enjoyed this scene, the song and the atmosphere. I think it was a strong start, setting the poignant mood. But of course it all goes out the window and downhill from here.

The biggest difference between the two Superman’s was the elimination of the godforsaken CGI removed moustache and the introduction to the “Recovery Suit” in Snyder's cut, which was a brilliant touch. We actually see Clark stumble upon the suit. A scene where various voices from his past, echo in his mind. An equally important and impactful scene; where he flied up into the universe, overlooking the Earth he is to protect.

I also really liked the whole, "Lois Lane is key" setup, with the eerie premonitions and glimpses into the “Knightmare”. Adding yet another deeper layer to the narrative. Setting the scene for Snyder's envisioned sequel.

In Whedon's cut during the first confrontation where Clark is confused immediately after his resurrection - the previous BvS battle is implemented more. With the "Do you bleed?" question being revisited. Giving us an unwanted closer look at the strange looking $3 million dollar CGI.

I liked Snyder's first confrontation better. It included more action and participation of all parties. And it was just a longer scene, making it seem more plausible and less silly. Before Clark reached Bruce he went through every member. Resulting in a little appreciated interaction between Arthur and Barry. I also thought Whedon’s scene showing Superman throwing Batman away like a ragdoll added to the ridiculous nature.

During the final battle. (Not mentioning how uncomfortable the colour grading was causing an unlikable atmosphere. Especially when it became daylight, taking away the exciting and intense atmosphere.) Whedon's Superman's entry was a little plain. Maybe cliché. Banging on about "truth" and "justice". Which isn't necessarily bad. It's just, maybe, too Superman? We then see the relieved faces of all the members. Batman's giddy smile was by far the best. It was nice to see genuine happiness and I think that played an important role in communicating to us Bruce's character arc. From lowest of lows, and his conflicting attitude towards Superman in BvS, to Superman giving him incredible hope. Though it slightly made me uncomfortable.

Snyder's entry of Superman was brutal in the best way. Appearing just before Cyborg was chopped to bits. Giving us that epic moment of 'He came.” Superman mercilessly rips into Steppenwolf for the next minute or two. No breakaways. Which was a great choice. It perfectly showcased his abilities. Though in the theatrical cut he was shown to be the only capable one of saving the world and being the real “hero”, in Snyder’s cut, especially The Flash, they were all shown to be powerful with meaningful parts to play.

Bruce Wayne appeared more guilty and conflicted about what happened in BvS in Whedon's cut. Though he was overshadowed in terms of writing by Superman and Wonder Woman. He also was the one who brought in the "big guns" a.k.a Lois Lane as a contingency plan in case the Superman resurrection went awry. In which it did. In Snyder's cut it was coincidence, or the doing of Man Hunter in that mysterious scene. Bruce was also quite tense and wasn’t too much a bright beacon of hope as he was in the Snyder cut. Even despite Snyder's vision of him being reminiscent and heavily inspired by Frank Millers version; darker, older, broken and violent in a way (which is brilliant) he still had this character arc. The lover’s tiff he suffered with Diana was irritating and what I thought was superfluous. Creating an unnecessary disconnect with the group. It wasn't an interesting sub-plot/complication at all .

Bruce's character arc (from the dark BvS time, to the hopeful present) was more thoroughly shown in Snyder’s cut compared to Whedon's. I briefly mentioned Bruce's schoolgirl grin when Superman arrived right on time. Though Snyder more effectively showcased this positive rise through his obviously increased in optimistic attitude. When the team are off the defeat Steppenwolf once and for all Alfred asks Bruce how he can be so sure of the Man of Steel’s arrival. And Bruce replies full of vigour, “Faith, Alfred, faith!” And in another instance Barry questions their strength against Steppenwolf due to the amount of demons he has won against. Bruce declares that, “He’s never fought us. Not us united.” It was a powerful statement that heavily elevated excitement for the final fight.

During this final fight, Batman basically goes out on a suicide mission. Then the rest of the league join him for a family reunion. The Snyder cut better represented this with an astounding freeze-frame, slow motion shot of the team. It nicely established the power of unity in this case.

The way in which Steppenwolf was defeated was vastly altered. Changed completely. Mostly due to Darkseid’s absence in the theatrical cut. Darkseid added an important extra layer of looming fear, and even gave Steppenwolf more depth. It gave him an important reason as to why he was doing what he wasy doing. As we saw his utter dedication to Darkseid. It alerted us of the larger dangers that were present. Steppenwolf’s death in Whedon’s cut was ultimately debilitated after seeing Snyder’s version. Instead of being anti-climactically eaten alive by his bug minions as the sun rose; (maybe it’s a personal preference but I heavily dislike the daylight, especially for action scenes) his head was chopped off, first horn by horn, then from the neck. His decapitated head thrusted back through the portal into his own world, landing at the horrifying Darkseid's feet, along with the terrifying parademons. Engulfed by a fiery hellscape. The horror that Earth could have faced. But still could face. It reveals the deeper and darker enemy, beyong Steppenwolf looming just beneath the surface.

A sinister tune plays, as we see the victorious Justice League looking back at them. The portal then closes. Although a victory, we can’t help but wonder what the demonic and powerful entities, far more powerful than Steppenwolf, have in store for Earth’s future.

The Knightmare vision being apart of that future. It's set up from BvS to the very end of Justice League. It's a very intriguing part of Snyder’s vision. The moment where you can link up and see the connections between all the post-credit scenes and the “premonitions” is an epiphanic moment. It’s a whole other narrative on its own that you can analyse, hypothesize and discuss. It’s a very intriguing/exciting concept to think of what would have been Snyder’s future movie where Barry (as we saw previously reverse time) goes back to warn Bruce that “Lois Lane is the key”, to avoid the whole disastrous scenario. We can gather that he is referencing what we see at the end of Snyder's cut, Superman turned evil. The death of Lois Lane, whose skeleton we saw Superman cradle previously, we can assume had a hand in that, and possibly the Anti-Life equation too. It's an incredible narrative, and there are few things I would love more than seeing the Snyderverse come to life on this epic scale again.

We also finally get a glimpse of Snyder’s joker. A very exciting moment for me. Seeing any new iteration of the Joker is an exciting moment. Could Jared Leto somehow redeem himself?

Well, it sure was infinitely times better than the Suicide Squad rendition. This Joker was actually eerie and unsettling. I felt almost uneasy watching these scenes, and his odd laugh caused shivers to form down my spine. Jokers comments about “boy wonder”, whom we find out was indeed Bruce’s adoptive son, were heartbreaking (I believe he was actually referring to Dick instead of Jason surprisingly as his grave was once seen in a previous movie) Leaving me holding my breath, wondering what Bruce would say next, or what other wretched thing Joker could say. Of course the "reach around" comment was a bit off, but I’ll just brush over that.

We also learnt of Arthur Curry’s death, Harley Quinn’s death. Proving that Snyder had such a colossal plans for all the characters, dead and alive.

It’s a poignant feeling; to see this incredible, vast narrative, just beneath the surface, unfold. Knowing that we won’t be able to see it fully developed. As of now.

While watching these two completely different cuts of the same movie; it occurred to me and I am sure many other people, that attempting to produce such an in depth narrative intensive movie on the small scale that Whedon attempted, will commonly end in a painful, empty and superficial representation. Or maybe that really was just Whedon's vision.

As the epilogue ended, the credits rolled. Hallelujah began playing, sung by Allison Crowe. And as they rolled, in big letters the words; "For Autumn" took center focus. White against black. Clear as day. Like a bus, it hit hard. The reason I was sitting on that couch finally having the great honour to watch such a film. The courage it must have taken to continue and finish such a project is beyond admirable, it's heroic. Also non-profit. It only further proves what we already knew, that the intentions were pure, as no one ever doubted.

Also acknowledging the giant billboard on one of the buildings promoting the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. A very important cause, especially to the Snyder’s. To date fans have raised over half a million dollars to the AFSP in honour of Autumn. A truly incredible feat.

When looking at the two movies side by side, it blows my mind to see the difference that I do. The emotion, meaning, the depth. It all just made sense in Snyder's cut. The emotion was palpable, absolutley unmistakable. Things mattered more. The people mattered more. There were reasons, and purpose. It was a genuine journey for every one of the characters, and I felt it. There were so many little scenes that made so much difference that added depth and meaning, emotion.

And I cannot say such words for Whedon, though I won’t put all the blame on him. Warner Bros. is about equally responsible. .

The true, original and intended Justice League; expatiated heroes, people, stories and journeys coming together on a grandiose scale, executed with passion and care. But also giving us a bittersweet taste of Snyder’s epic trilogy that could have been.

The end of the saga; and the rest of Snyder’s visions, are left unfulfilled; as of now. But regardless, remains as one of the things I hope to see come to life. Watching this movie, and the feeling I had during and afterward is indescribable. I want to say a massive congratulations to Zack Snyder. The film was beyond breathtaking. It really is so special and it will forever have an important place in my heart.

Though I think the most important thing to take away from the Snyder's incredible work is Autumn's story.

Thank you Zack Snyder.

For Autumn.

www.imdb.com/title/tt12361974/

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nadziejastar · 6 years ago

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Introducing Skuld into the castle experiments story didn't even have to come at the expense of Kairi, Isa, and Lea. There were supposed to many victims, adding one more wouldn't be too much of a stretch. But I guess they wanted to make Subject X unique, so the stories of others were harmed so she would stand out more.

Yes, I have thought the exact same thing. It would have made 100 times more sense if they were ALL test subjects. Then it would actually feel believable that they’d feel a close bond with this girl. There was no need to make them apprentices of all things.

But I’ve also wondered if there was a different reason Lea and Isa’s story was altered. Was it because the original experiments into the “darkness of the heart" were deemed too dark and had to be censored? Unfortunately, I find this very possible.

Were The Experiments Into The “Darkness of the Heart” Censored By Disney?

Alter- Our usage is trying to follow the programmers usage of this word. A dissociated part of the mind which has a separate identity and is given cue codes by the mind-control programmers, to trigger that dissociated part of the mind to come to the front of the mind. The alter’s identity may be a gem, rock, a tape recorder, a poodle, a white kitten, a dove, a horse, or even think of itself as a person or a demon. It all depends on its programming.

Alter Fragment- An alter is different from an alter fragment in that the alter fragment is a dissociated part of the mind which serves only a single purpose. The programmers will give an alter a history, and insure that shadow alters will provide a full range of accessible emotions. Sometimes the distinctions between alters and alter fragments is vague, but examples from the two ends of the spectrum are easy to tell apart.

Switching–This is when one part (fragment) of the mind takes over from another, or in simple terms, this is when one alter personality (or alter fragment) takes the body from the alter which is holding the body. Switching can occur via the Programmers’ codes for calling up alters, or by external or internal stimuli that trigger an alter to come out. Switching will usually cause at least a flicker of the eyes, and for outside observers, who know the different personalities, they will observe another personality take the body.

It’s possible this MK Ultra-inspired subplot would have been seen as inappropriate for a franchise that needed to reach as wide of an audience as possible. Maybe it was fine in the past when the series was more obscure and flew under Disney’s radar. But once the series got so big, Disney took notice and put the brakes on it? The cancelled game was called A Fragmentary Passage. And maybe the memory experiments with Skuld were created to take the attention away from the previously mentioned experiments on darkness.

There’s a lot of rumors about Disney being linked to various mind control programs. I think most people have seen stuff like that on Youtube. Many celebrities, including former Disney channel actors and actresses are believed to be victims of mind control. When Britney Spears had her famous mental breakdown, the subject was talked about a lot. And some say that Disney movies were also used for mind control programming. Like Alice in Wonderland or Peter Pan. Here’s an example:

TINKERBELLE PROGRAMMING (never grow up/alien)

Capt’n or Cap’n (captain) represents the programmer in Peter Pan programming. Tinkerbelle is a young alter created under Peter Pan programming. ‘TRANCE DIMENSIONAL TRAVEL RIGHT FROM YOUR OWN BACKYARD. THE DIMENSIONS OF YOUR PYRAMID ARE TO BE 9 BYE 9 BYE 9 BYE.”

Alien programming (also involves Peter Pan programming)

“RIDE THE LIGHT” - Peter Pan programming meaning to go into hypnotic induction attached to a light that is seen when given a high voltage shock. This is given to make experiences seem like they occur in another dimension.

Creeeepy. Maybe Disney didn’t want that type of content associated with a game under their brand, thinking it would fuel more Illuminati conspiracies?

Wizard of Oz Programming

Over the rainbow in Oz is for the Monarch slave to be in a trance, and into a certain area of the programming. To be fluctuating at both ends as an observer and not a participant or to go to the other extreme and become a participant. The theme song of the movie goes, “Somewhere over the Rainbow…there’s a land where the dreams that you dare to dream really come true.” These lyrics are a method to hypnotically confuse the brain to perceive that the “over the Rainbow experience” (which is usually horrible abuse) is a “dream”.

The dissociative mind is only too happy to call the trauma a dream, which is lived as a reality for a moment, but is nevertheless recorded by the mind as a fantasy. The term for this is cryptoamnesia, which means the process where the proper functioning of memory is hypnotically messed up. The slave’s internal world becomes “reality” and the external real world becomes the Land of Oz which is perceived as make-believe.

I have always found the subject of government mind control very interesting, and have read many books about it over the years. It’s a big reason I found Lea and Isa’s story so utterly fascinating and overflowing with potential. And it’s why I am so mad at how terribly it was handled.

Tin Man Programming

The Tin Man programming is all purpose versatile program for what ever the master needs done, it means that the slave is a well oiled machine. Sometimes the slave is reluctant to do a job but he is being told that he is a well oiled machine. The exact words may vary with the mission, but the following are exact words, “LEAVE YOUR SHELL. ACTIVATE: MACHINE. COUNT DOWN ONE TO TIN….” “SOON WE’LL HAVE YOU PURRING LIKE A WELL OILED MACHINE. ALL OF YOUR MOVING PARTS ARE PIVOTAL AND GLIDING WITH EASE. MELT INTO MY HANDS. TAKE MY COMMANDS. I’LL HOLD YOUR JAW TO KEEP IT FROM SLIPPING WHILE YOU SLIP THROUGH A WINDOW IN TIME.”

There’s something called the Tin Man programming.

The programming that is related to the Tin Man produces a monarch slave which is described as “A WELL OILED MACHINE” by the handlers. U.S. Sen. Allen Simpson, one of the perpetrators of the Monarch Program, referred to the Tin Man programming when he told a slave “THESE ARE BUT EMPTY SHELLS OF THE LIFE THEY WERE ONCE POSSESSED. LIKE YOU ARE–EMPTY AND VOID OF LIFE.”

Book 3 Ozma of Oz: “I am only a ma-chine, and can-not feel sor-row or joy, no mat-ter what hap-pens.” This is teaching mechanical dissociation, and coincides with Tin Man programming.

I think THIS is the true reason why Saïx hated Xion so much.

Day 150: Dealing with Xion

As expected, the Duplicate is starting to show its limits. The Program showed promise, but a puppet is just a puppet: something to be toyed with until it breaks. I am utterly at a loss as to what Roxas and Axel see in that thing. How best to dispose of it merits my consideration going forward.

She’s a machine. He can’t see her as anything else. And he went through Tin Man programming, so he subconsciously remembers being called a “well-oiled machine”. And to make matters worse, she has a HEART. It’s only natural he’d despise her. I can’t even blame him, honestly.Stuff like this is why I found him so utterly fascinating. And why I thought his characterization in KH3 was a total JOKE.

“SILENCE!” is both in the movie and a command of the Oz Programming. This word SILENCE stands for a code of “no talk” which runs deep in the mind of the slave. As in the movie, certain slave alters will talk to their masters as Dorothy did, “If you please, Sir…” The keys (and triggers) to control the switching of personalities and to give orders are frequently based on Wizard of Oz material.

There’s also silence programming. Having one’s mouth covered is thought to be a sign of someone who has been mind-controlled.

“Very well.” Finally, Xemnas stifled his laughter, though he still sounded intensely amused. “You’re reinstated into the organization.”

“But—!” Saïx jumped to his feet again. At that, Xemnas’s smile disappeared.

“Silence,” he growled, returning his attention to Axel. “Where are Naminé and the boy?”

Look how he growled at Saïx when he said “silence”. Sheesh.

In the Round Room, Saïx looked up at Xemnas high above. “Are you sure we’re dealing with Xion and Roxas the right way?”

His tone was markedly different from usual, as if he spoke to an old friend rather than a superior.

Saïx grows more and more obedient as Days goes on. He becomes more and more one with Xehanort, his mind control handler/programmer.

“Is the device functioning properly?” Xemnas inquired. He and Saïx were the only ones in the Round Room.

“Yes, sir. Luxord and Demyx have been placing them in various worlds before Roxas visits.” Saïx couldn’t fathom what Xemnas’s true objective might be.

“Sora or Xion—it matters not. But we need one of them under our control. Bear that in mind.”

Saïx nodded, and a serene smile came to Xemnas’s face. If that smile meant anything, it was beyond him.

When Saïx nods at Xemnas obediently, he smiles serenely. Veeery creepy.

The codes for slaves follow patterns. There are standard and unique codes. The internal programming alters have the power to change codes if they need to protect the programming.

They will have to hypnotically work with alters when they trance out at night. In other words, most of their programming of front alters will be done when a System lies down for “sleep”–more accurately described as “for trance.”

Fits the “sleep” theme KHBBS and KH3D had.

Scarecrow Programming

Monarch slaves are threatened with fire, like the Scarecrow. They also see people dismembered like the Scarecrow was dismembered. For them it is not an idle threat. The front alters also have hearts full of pain like Scarecrow. Certain alters are not given courage and most have their hearts taken from them.

The alters who are programmed not to have hearts are hypnotically told the same thing the Tin Man says, “I could be human if I only had a heart.” Some alters are taught they are stupid and have no brain. Scarecrow is asked the question, “How can you talk without a brain?” Scarecrow answers, “Some people without a brain can do a lot of talking.”

There’s also programming involving fire, and brainwashing the person by telling them they have no heart. Sounds kinda familiar.

Vexen: Unnngh… Axel, wh…why…?

Axel: You sure love to talk. It’s about time you shut up — forever.

Vexen: No… Don’t do it…!

Axel: We’re nobodies, Vexen. We’ve got no one to be — but we still “are.” So look on the bright side. You’re off the hook. Now you can be nothing instead of just being nobody.

Vexen: M-Mercy, Axel! I don’t want to…go yet…

Axel: NOW you can tell me I don’t respect my elders.

Can’t blame Axel for killing him.

Delta–This is a Greek letter shaped like a triangle which symbolizes change in calculus. It has become a favorite word to use in naming things for the occult elite. Delta teams are 4 person assassination teams which usually are secret teams. Delta Forces is an elite unit that operates under the Joint chiefs of staff that is made up of highly trained total mind-controlled slaves. Delta models are slaves whose sole purpose is assassination. Delta alters are alters within an Illuminati alter system which are programmed to be assassins. These alters are often some of the deepest in a system and in a Genie bottle or with Umbrella programming.

Delta is shaped like a triangle, which is also the alchemical symbol for Fire.

Porcelain Face Programming

Fire/burning torture is used in the porcelain face programming. The charismatic branch of the satanic Network (such as the Assembly of God churches) uses porcelain face programming. This is done by using wax masks upon the victim, and giving them fire torture. The person actually thinks that their face has melted. At that point, the programmer pretends to be a god & a hero, and tells the person he will give them a new face, a porcelain mask.

These new faces by the way, look like the ones sold in so many stores. The memories of abuse are then hypnotically hid behind the masks. To take off the masks is to abreact & burn again. If anyone touches the faces of alters with porcelain face programming, the alters will feel a burning sensation because their masks are not to be tampered with. This means that these alters have via torture & hypnosis lost their own faces! As long as these alters stay in denial of what has happened to them, they do not have to face the burn torture memories.

Is this the true backstory of Axel? It would make a lot of sense. Um. Yikes.No wonder Axel never wanted to leave the Organization, regardless of how fucked up Saïx was. He could never abandon Isa and leave him in a group like this. Never.

Keys to the Kingdom Programming

The Catholic Church has long said, “Give me a child by the age of 5 and they will be Catholic”. The Catholic Church is one of the largest parts of the network that carries out Monarch Mind Control. It is a fact, that if the Jesuits can place in their programming–what they call the “Keys to the Kingdom” Monarch Mind Control within a child, they will control his destiny.

One Jesuit priest is on record as stating that there is nothing he can’t make anyone do with torture. The Jesuits developed torture to a fine art in the Inquisition. Imagine the expertise they have brought to the Monarch Program which begins torturing children at 18 months onward with every sophisticated torture device invented. If the Jesuits brag that they can convince adults to do anything via torture, what about baby children?

Is this what Ventus was?

It was true that Ventus’s heart had been damaged. Master Xehanort had originally raised Ventus to become his vessel, but Ventus had proven to be too kind. Thus, Master Xehanort had split his heart into light and darkness so that he could make use of him in another way.

While he had succeeded in birthing Vanitas, Ventus had remained unconscious, broken after the removal of his heart. Though Master Xehanort had initially tried to discard Ventus after he failed to awaken, for some reason the boy had come to his senses.

In the novel, it was stated that Master Xehanort raised Ventus. Maybe he was originally just an orphan Xehanort found. Or maybe he kidnapped Ven?

Xion: But I thought we were friends.

Axel: Hey, I’m not about to tell you ALL my dark secrets. Got it memorized? I bet you keep a thing or two from me.

Roxas: I don’t have any dark secrets.

Axel: Ha ha, relax, would ya? I’m kidding.

This is another reason why I would have preferred Ventus and Roxas to be the same character. Roxas and Axel become very close. But Roxas has no memories of his past. Axel keeps his past a secret. But if Ven regained his memories, they would find out they had a very similar past. Roxas does have dark secrets. And so does Xion, which would be Kairi’s past as a test subject.

If the Programmers want, they can shatter a front alter and create a new alter to replace the original front. The abuse can be done by the victim themselves to themselves, because programming alters are given the ability to pull up horrific memories via codes. Those traumatic memories, which shattered the mind the first time, are still capable of doing it again when they are abreacted (that is relived by the body & mind).

When Ven meets Master Xehanort at the Keyblade Graveyard before he tells him about Eraqus, is this what happened? Yikes.

In review, the elements that make up a single whole personality–family history, personal history and memories of abilities, talents and one’s self image have all been stripped from the child when the mind divides itself up into sections walled off by amnesia walls. When the programmers work with each memory part, they have the option to give it all the elements of whatever personality they want it to have. They can even make it into an animal or an inanimate object, because that little fragment has has no chance to contradict what it is being programmed to believe. Although the memory part of the brain (which provides a person’s personality) is divided, other parts of the brain function intact.

Is this what inspired Isa’s story? MK Ultra is intimately connected to Satanic Ritual Abuse, according to the testimony of many survivors. Mind control experiments were alleged to be performed on children in connection with Satanism (and other churches). For example Michael Aquino, the founder of the Temple of Set, has a very dark history filled with ritual child sex abuse allegations, going back to the 1970′s.

The Moonchild rituals are the rituals to demonize a fetus. However, the demons that are invoked are not the small ones, but very powerful ones. In working with victims of this programming, it is clear that high level demons were placed within these people at very early ages. It is believed many of them were demonized before they were born by rituals like the Moonchild rituals.

Blood sacrifices and human sacrifices are always required for this level of magic. Aleister Crowley (1875-1947) was a Satanist who was a 33rd degree Scottish Rite Freemason. He also was a leader in a number of other Masonic rites as well as an OTO leader, a chief in Stella Matutina, and a MI-6 (Br. overseas intelligence) agent. His writings have been important within 20th century Satanism and with black magicians. He wrote Moonchild, first published in 1917.

If Isa was Subject X, what does that say about him? He was kidnapped as a young teen. He has an X symbolizing death on his forehead. He gets a heart fragment of a cult leader implanted inside of him. He develops amnesia afterwards. Isa is the fictional equivalent of a kidnapped and demonically-possessed child victim of Satanic Ritual Abuse.

The goal was to produce the “Moonchild” – a being who embodies physically a spirit deity, but not inhabited by a human soul. This being is also referred to as a “Magical Child” (essentially designed to manifest an individual incarnation of the archetypal divine feminine called Babalon). The process draws heavily from rituals and magick that Crowley derived from The Babylonian Ishtar and the “Great Whore” from the biblical “Book of Revelation.”

The idea of the Moonchild is that by use of black magic, a perfect soul can be captured. The belief in reincarnation, which is prevalent among the Illuminati and Satanic groups, lends itself to the belief that souls compete for a particular embryo. On page 107- 108 of Moonchild, the idea is expressed, “To produce a man who should not be bound up in his heredity, and should have the environment which they desired for him.”

And Isa was seen as special. He was dubbed “X” for a reason.

This perfect soul in a proper person is called Homunculus. The actual rituals carried out to create a Moonchild are described in detail in three of Crowley’s writings. A vague description of the rituals can be seen by reading the book Moonchild. The ritual took place at a villa nicknamed The Butterfly Net. The villa was really an occult temple laid out in sacred geometrics. It had figures of satyrs, fauns, and nymphs. It had statues of Artemis. Lots of silver objects and crescents and 9-pointed stars were at the villa, because these objects all relate to the Moon in magic. The moon’s influence was repeatedly invoked. A small triangular silver altar to Artemis was used. Prayers were made to Artemis, and there was the reenactment of the capture of Diana by Pan.

And he does have a weapon named “Artemis”. Yikes.

Another better way of looking at what happens is to understand that the part of the brain that records personal memory–that is the personal history memory section, is divided up into little pieces by amnesia walls built to protect itself from the repeated traumas. Each section is walled off from another section by amnesia. Each trauma has an amnesia wall built around it. Each trauma memory is sectioned off. That walled off section is a piece of memory that will be identified, and a hypnotic cue attached by the programmers that will pull it up to the conscious mind. And further, if the programmers so desire, it can be given a history, a name, a job, and developed into a full-blown personality.

The programming is not designed to damage these areas, only to control what emotions they contain are linked in memory to the various memory fragments that will be made into personalities. The reticular formation is the location of the brain’s mechanism which determines the state of consciousness all the way from alert, to hypnotic trance, to sleep, to coma. It interacts with the frontal lobes and the rest of the brain. Each memory is a function of several parts of the brain working together.

This all fits into the “bits and pieces of something whole” theme of A Fragmentary Passage was supposed to revolve around.

“Well, it’s a break, in a sense… Xemnas also went out, you see.”

“Hmm… it’s rare for him to go out,” Luxord said, quietly, tidying the cards.

“No, he goes here and there fairly often. Because now is a very important time for the organisation.”

“What’s very important?” Axel asked, peering into Xigbar’s face.

“The world is moving. We’ve gotta be worried about own fragment’s movement, right?”

“Fragment?” Luxord leaned his head to one side.

“The rest is a secret,” said Xigbar, teasingly, getting off the table and starting to walk. “Be really careful not to let them use you.”

At Xigbar’s words, Axel and Luxord looked at each other.

This is a really interesting part of the Short Stories novel. Xigbar is privy to something going on, while Axel and Luxord are not. And it involves a “fragment”. This was no doubt supposed to foreshadow A Fragmentary Passage. They had ideas for that story planned all the way back when the KH2 Novels were written. It sucks that we’ll never know what it’s all about.

When a Monarch slave sees an hour glass they may switch, but basically it is a reminder that the slave masters have the power to run a person’s time out. One slave was told, “The sand that sifts through the hourglass is a measure of your worthiness to live or die.” The hour glass shape is basically two triangles which touch at their peaks, or an X configuration with the tops of the X having lines.

Young Xehanort’s Keyblade has an hourglass keychain. Master Xehanort switched to Isa to attack Lea at the end of KH3D.

We can practice unconditional love, peace and Harmlessness. This helps to integrate and heal our Fragments to unify, as well as neutralize any Negative Emotional Energy in the environment. When we stop feeding the energy reversals, they are gradually taken offline. When we can hold compassionate witnessing and refuse to be triggered into negative emotional states, we are refusing to be manipulated and siphoned by the negative entities. Additionally, truly empathic and unconditionally loving humans may also gain the spiritual power to recollect and transit the consciousness Fragments of sacrificed children and traumatized people that are trapped in the earth realms, and this is an important service we can do to help heal the earth.

Furthermore, the concept of soul fragmentation and soul retrieval is big in various esoteric and New Age circles. They believe they can help child victims of Satanic Ritual Abuse and mind control, who are trapped in the earth’s astral realms. Isa’s character seems largely inspired by this concept. Which I must say, is incredibly unique. I’ve never seen another character with a story like that. It’s very cool and extremely fascinating and I have to give Nomura and the writers credit.

Ceremonies

Beltaine with hunts of slaves, fire festivals, and blood rituals

Bride of Satan Ceremony

Demon revels

Drawing down the moon

Druid Feast Day on Jan. 1

Duels to the death like gladiators where the heart is cut out and eaten

Grail Mass, the Grand Climax human sacrifice & sex rituals

Invocation of Hecate as Crone

Lammas sabbat where a female is sacrificed

Pathworking (done before 16 with Cabalistic Tree of Life pathways.)

Rite of Deification Rod of Light ceremony (consists of text from Cabala, black candles, ram’s horn blown, and victim’s mother’s name sounded)

Sealing ceremony at 19 yrs. for Mothers of Darkness level

Secret ceremony where people paint their faces half black and half white.

Sister of Light rebirthing water ceremony (victim is bound and then pulled from water and wrapped up in linen, and a green branch is place on the chest)

St. Agnes Eve St. Bartholomew’s Day

St. Walpurgis

Summer Soltstice Orgy

A list of occult ceremonies.

Note the ceremony called “drawing down the moon”.

For those who are not familiar with occult terms the following are ritual items: Paten (the holy dish), Athame or Glaive (the knife used to sacrifice with), the wand or sceptre (an ornamental staff which represents authority & usually has an electric shock), and the censer (to distribute burning fragrance)

Xemnas’ Ethereal Blades fit the bill here. The Recusant’s Sigil is also a symbol of authority.

In upper level Illuminati slaves, Dorothy in the Oz story will represent the Mother of Darkness alters, Ozma will represent the Ruler of the Castle, and Glinda will have the Great Book of Records. The ring of Glinda gives protection.

Xemnas is the master of the castle.

‘‘I’ve come a long long way to see you” -Words to say by System to John or to person to be met. There is an endless variety of contact phrases to indicate that the right person has met the right person.

“I’ve been to see him. He looks a lot like you.”

End-time Activation Codes

Most slaves have end-time programming. When a slave is called in with end-time programming they have pages upon pages of coded messages. A number of Monarch slaves have been de-programmed enough that they began accessing and spewing out pages and pages of these activation codes. Part of a sample of one of these is as follows:

ISRAEL IS RISING

900 BLUE BIRD PILOTS RISE

NATIONS IN PLACE

RED CHINA CALL BACK

COUNT DOWN, ACTIVATE ALEX

CIRCLE FARMS AROUND THE SQUARE

BRITISH SOLDIERS RISE

MOUNTAIN GOAT COME

EASTSIDE OF PEAK

1.7 ACTIVATE THE HOUR COMES, A. C. SON ACTIVATE

AFRICA ARISE IN NUMBERS OF 90…

A team leader will have a down line of around 4 people–which are coded red ray, yellow ray, green ray, blue ray. When the activation code hits a slave team leader during the end times, they will in turn activate their people, who in turn will have people who are team leaders and have a down line. At least two false callback alarms will be sounded (tested) before the real one.

There’s something called end-times programming. Now look at these passages from the Short Stories novel. It’s from the same story that mentioned the “fragment”.

“Won’t you keep it in moderation? It’s loud, I can’t sleep.”

“Not being able to sleep cause of the noise is kinda, well, human-like, isn’t it?” Demyx said, smiling. His hand kept moving over the strings.

“Fool. Nobodies need rest too. A terrible force is moving this world. We gotta rest to store up power.”

“The world? I dunno nothing about that. I dunno anything you members from the old days are thinking,” Demyx spat in a loud voice, continuing to play the sitar. Xaldin frowned in displeasure, and disappeared.

Demyx’s sitar continued to play.

Xaldin was privy to the same thing Xigbar was. Demyx was clearly not. Yeah, I always thought Xaldin was important in some way.

Who the hell made the neon lights in this city?

Axel looked up at the pitch dark sky.The sky of this world is completely black, with no moon or stars, like it’s pressing down.

“Where do you intend on going?”The person who calls out like they’ve been watching me all along, in a place like this. It never fails to be him.Saïx.

“Anywhere’s good, right?” Axel said, without turning around, pulling his hood over his face.

“Don’t leave this world without a mission.”

“This place is suffocating,” Axel said, as he started walking.

“…Can’t you hear the world’s screams?”

“Screams?”

Axel finally turned around, and looked up at Saïx standing on a stairway.

“The time when we should move will come soon.”

“I dunno, whatever.” Axel turned his back on Saïx, and opened a dark portal in front of him.

Saïx was privy, too. But he might just be reciting programmed code. Axel was definitely creeped out, though. Weeeeird. I can’t imagine how he felt after watching his friend get turned into a mind-controlled zombie robot. Poor Axel.

CHI (return to cult)

Chi programming uses a lot of idiosyncratic phrases, and little ditties. Some of the nursery rhymes listed in the song section will be Chi programming. Some of the Chi programming has been listed in the Alpha programming section.

This is why Xehanort is always able to find them with the X. It’s why he retrieved Isa. He had to return to the cult.

OMEGA (Internal Computers)

The Omega programming works along with an Executive Control Board (or Grand Druid Council) and Internal programmers. The Executive Control Board is associated with both numbers of the clock, and precious gems and metals such as “9 O’CLOCK GOLD”. The Beast computer can be accessed with Scripture triggers associated with the Vision of Daniel of the Beast, and its ten toes. The Ten Toes are important part of the code in some models. Program numbers on some slaves are put in by touching the third eye with the index finger and speaking the number.

Saïx was given the scar on his third eye, a new name with an X in it, and a number in the Organization. “As you flesh bears the sigil, so shall your name be known as that of a Recusant”.

The Traumatization and Torture of The Victim

The basis for the success of the Monarch mind-control programming is that different personalities or personality parts called alters can be created who do not know each other, but who can take the body at different times. The amnesia walls that are built by traumas, form a protective shield of secrecy that protects the abusers from being found out, and prevents the front personalities who hold the body much of the time to know how their System of alters is being used.

This is no doubt what Xehanort wanted to do to Isa. Leave him completely blank for programming purposes. But Ansem intervened and restored his memories.

As a child begins its programming, it is monitored in a fashion similar to hospitals where charts are filled and then these charts are filed. Tests and evaluations are done regularly. Goals are set which are six month programming goals. These will say in effect, we need to accomplish this by doing a, b, c, d in the next six months.

This was probably Kairi, Lea, and Isa’s situation. Think about the notes on Subject X.

A male Monarch victim remembers a large hanger building at China Lake with a concrete floor and row after row of cages suspended from the ceiling filling the large building. One of the Programmers was dressed similar to a Catholic Priest. The electric current that ran to the cages made a hum, like an electric fence. There was a marble slab that served as an altar where black-hooded robed people would take a bone handled knife and sacrifice little children in front of the other children in the cages.

Would explain the cages. Organization XIII is actually really disturbing and horrifying if you think about it. It’s basically a Satanic Cult.

Along with the suicide programs that can be triggered are programs that jerk the victim’s mind every which way, which include: Bee Stinging Program (put in by placing the drugged victim being near large swarms of bees humming & then letting a bee(s) sting the victim). Cutting programs are often hidden behind the Bee Swarming program.

One of Xigbar’s weapons is named “Killer Bee”. Did he give Isa the scar? Would NOT surprise me one bit.

The primary important factor for the trauma-based mind-control is the ability to disassociate. It was discovered that this ability is passed genetically from generation to generation.

A sense of time & a sense of self are attached to autobiographical memories–these things are stripped of an alter as it functions within the programming. Memory storage is also linked to the brain’s state of mind at the time. Hormones released at the time of an experience will modulate the strength of the memory of that experience. The limbichypothalamic system of the brain (which consists of the amygdala, hippocampus, cingulate gyrus, fornix, septum, certain nuclei of the thalamus, and the Papez circuit) has a central modulating part which interacts with peripheral hormones. Peripheral epinephrine will be released if the amygdala is electrically stimulated. The adrenal medulla releases epinephrine that is vital for memory storage. In other words, there are hormones which help the brain remember or not.

The experiments were all about getting a subject to renounce their sense of self.

The mind of the victim is not only divided from itself, but the very process of torture, makes the victim distrustful of humans in general. On top of this distrust, the programmers will layer in programming to isolate the person from healthy relationships, which in turn increases the victim’s feeling of helplessness. They are divided from their own parts (their own self) and the world in general.

Yeah, Isa needed the power of waking. Badly. This is why the story left such a bad taste in my mouth, and why I complain so much about it. Isa was kidnapped and forcefully inducted into a Satanic cult as child, through use of mind control techniques. It just infuriates me that poor Isa was not rescued from this disgusting shit! I could never consider that a good ending. Fuck no.

#kh theories #kh3 theory #anti-kh3 #kh kairi #kh lea #kh isa #kh axel #kh saix #kh meta #kingdom hearts #kingdom hearts 3 meta

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myinterestsvary-writes · 6 years ago

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@chocoazelle I may be contradicting your point but Allen was the one who made it a big deal in the first place when he bowed to her in front of so many people, she just returned the extraness. He was the one who never dragged her somewhere private to make amends, not really considering her feelings about it thus trying to make her feel guilty over it. He could've dealt with it better, but in his mind apparently he couldn't see any other way in talking to her. He could've however, Lenalee wasn't always going to ignore him. It would've cooled down eventually. (I don't mean to come off as yelling) or HE COULD'VE PULLED HER ASIDE TO SOMEWHERE PRIVATE TO DISCUSS THIS HIMSELF. Allen isn't in the right either then. It could be said they're both in the wrong because they both tried to make each other feel guilty. She wouldn't ask him why he tried to save the Akuma because she deemed it stupid no matter any explanation. With a normal perspective, anyone would. You can't really empathize with someone with such an unreal perspective, tryingly understand yes, but honestly, her saying that he should value his life over theirs (the akuma) makes sense. Honestly, she cares for him, of course she wouldn't ask such a thing. She's emotional just like Allen.

Lenalee isn't of the audience where she can detach from Allen and see where he's coming from. Unlike you guys, she's actually his real DGM-life friend.

The feminism thing with the hitting annoys me.

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS STRIKES AGAIN!

Yes, it should be taken into account when someone's feelings are involved but they are not real people. It is not real life.

Just because you don't find it funny doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. What that hitting thing means is that it's for comedy. It doesn't make it not serious when talked about under different circumstances. That should not be taken seriously. Even if it offends you, you don't have to say anything on it because again, it's not treated seriously even if you think it should be. Use it as an example on how not to treat people but don't take it seriously itself. It was never made to be serious.

I am not trying to tell you what to do however...

This was great though, I agree with a lot of things you said. Over here, in westernized countries, Lenalee is problematic in that way.

Of course her flaws can be elaborated on within fanon, I like doing that too, it's just that I get called defensive when I try to talk more on it as well. Well, when I provide my reason for why I believe what someone said about her is wrong. And also get grouped into the same people who'll defend Lenalee on everything when all I was trying to get was a discussion/debate and/or discourse. I got called defensive by @candy-crackpot when I was just saying my piece to her, though obviously they were on edge from before about this whole thing because they feel so much over it. It wasn't exactly, IRONICALLY, fair though.

Maybe I did say some things that could be a reason for me being called out, but I can only recall one instance with me being confused on why people didn't have a good understanding of Lenalee's character in some way. Nonetheless, I am sorry about that, bro. I should've messaged you or something too saying that I didn't think any lower of you too after that. You were obviously very heated from that and I don't know if you still are. I didn't bother responding because you said you didn't want to talk anymore on it.

I do not understand how this makes you dislike her however. The untouchableness of Lenalee's character. It's the fandom's doing, not her's. As you say, you can discuss their flaws but can still love them. You do that instead since you don't see anyone else doing so? You don't have to dislike her for that reason. That isn't healthy and wasted energy. I understand it to be frustrating but don't harm yourself over it. Lenalee, I believe, is a good character worth liking despite her flaws. INCLUDING her flaws. Lenalee's character is of who she is, not of how the fandom treats her. Maybe how Hoshino treats her but not entirely since that's the culture she's apart of. I am not making an excuse. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't necessarily mean that you can't empathize with it, let alone sympathize. Just try to understand, yes, you should question everything, but everyone has a culture and you can't just tell someone that theirs is wrong. Though, I think you know that outside of this discussion. You seem smart enough to know that.

Lenalee not having a consistent antithesis may be annoying, but you are optimistic on her development. Due to Hoshino's culture, there's not much likability there will be elaboration on Lenalee's immaturity regarding her anger outlets but there may well be on other aspects of her as again you've said.

This was a great discussion. I should've wrote that at the end of ours too. This made me more comfortable discussing her.

Thank you @chocoazelle !!

Hasn't there been enough of people calling Lenalee abusive? It's like everyone finds any reason they can to hate her. Allen, Kanda, and Lavi all act the same way she does and have the same amount of anger, if not more. Why is it okay for Lavi to break windows out of rage or for Kanda to hurt people but it's bad if Lenalee gets angry because a friend of hers basically tried to kill himself and she was worried about him?

I have never seen anyone call lenalee out for being abusive or just.. not being a good friend. She means good but she is not the kindest one all the time. I have indeed seen posts calling her out for crying too much only because she is a girl, in which I agree is just stupid because a girl can cry as much as guys can.

But if I have to be honest.. I have seen her (physically) lash out on the other 3 main guys much more, than the main 3 guys at the others in the whole series.

Lavi has indeed 1 time got very angry and smashed a window, but he did not hit her and immediately stopted yelling/calmed down when he noticed that everyone in the room looked at him. Other than that moment I don’t remember him getting angry or lashing out, most of the time when he does feel negative he stays silent.

Allen gets angry at times but doesn’t really lash out. For example he can be angry at Lavi for taking his food but doesn’t hit him or punches him so hard that Lavi can’t feel his body anymore. No he just pranks him back (like the wasabi scene in Gray Log). He does fight with Kanda, but that’s because he KNOWS that Kanda can take it, and Kanda doesn’t mind. Them fighting or sparring each other is the only real outlet they have without holding back. Yet they still respect each other and don’t cross each others boundaries.Allen also NEVER gets angry at women, the only one time that he did was when he yelled at Lenalee for holding him back when the akuma was about to explode (their mission in Miranda’s town). Even after that Allen apologized for his behaviour yet Lenalee made such a big scene and said that his actions hurted her. She didn’t even brought him somewhere private to talk it out and even try asking him herself on WHY he wanted to save that exploding akuma? ‘’Why did you want to save it? We kill akuma’s so why trying to kill yourself for nothing?’’.. she never even tried to ask. She just made a whole scene in public and made Allen feel guilty for his action.

Kanda is mostly all bark and barely bite. Which is a wonder because at the start of his life he always yelled at Alma and calls him out stuff but never punched him (except that one moment where they both fought each other until their limbs fell out). And later on he never hit/hurt or even yelled at Lenalee, from when she was a lil kid until now. Lenalee sees Kanda like his own brother. And you know how Lenalee handles her brother. She loves Komui but she doesn’t hold back kicking him so hard that he might get a concussion. And even though we have not seen her harm Kanda as much as Komui in the series, she does still hurt him, even if it is out of ‘’(sisterly) love’’.. and we know she doesn’t hold back against Kanda because she knows that Kanda is much stronger than Komui. He has accepted every punch and kick and yell from her but never harmed her himself. Kanda never really hurted people. Yes he pushed/shoved people away hard or yelled or even threaten them with Mugen. But he never hit or actually cut someone down. And he does fight with Allen, but just as I wrote above, he knows that Allen can take it and they both don’t have to hold back yet they still respect each other and give each other space when needed.

AND Lavi even calls Kanda ‘’Yuu’’ even though Kanda told him not to call him that a million times. Even then Kanda never really hurts Lavi for that, he only yells at him and threatens to cut him. And it’s a wonder that he never lashed out because of that, because his first name might even remember/trigger him too much of his past and he wants to leave his past behind. And speaking about his past, Kanda has also had a horrible one. Even worse than Lenalee. Yes she was kidnapped and taken by force. But she luckily has not been experimented on and she had protection of Jerry, the Matron, and probably even from other scientists and/or even finders, and got protection from Komui too when he joined the order. Kanda did not have someone to protect him. Yes Alma cared about him and tried to help as much as he could, and even some scientist cared about both Kanda and Alma.. but they also manipulated him and he was experimented on so horribly and so much. But even then. No one uses his past as an excuse for his bad behaviour. Even with all the horrible things Kanda went through, he still doesn’t hurt others. And he, and the fandom, never uses his horrible past as an excuse to hurt others or for it to be justified..

Yet for example down here we see canon material of how Lenalee is. Kanda did NOT want to model. If someone says no, it means no. Yet Lenalee is like a sister to Kanda and I know for sure that if she kept asking him to model a few times.. he would eventually say yes just so she will stop asking him. YET we see here that she obviously used such brute strength that it makes KANDA bleed from his mouth.. just to make Kanda do something he initially said no to.

And I just don’t like this potrayel or ‘’girl power’’ or ‘’female empowerment’’ it’s not even ‘’cute’’.. it’s just horrible behaviour. There is a difference about comical relief and just straight up hurting someone so bad that they bleed and and have a hard time moving. And now imagine this. If Lenalee were a guy and Kanda a girl.. would this still be okay? Would this still be cute or ‘’sibling love’’? No people would lash out and say that male Lenalee is abusive to female Kanda. So why is the other way around fine? And also ask yourself this.. would you like or even accept to have a friend to hurt you so bad like this? Not really right..

And the other bad behaviour was when Allen was about to leave the order, Lenalee flew all the way to him and asked ‘’where are you going?’’ but when he said that he is going to leave.. she told him to stay? Like.. really? Did she really think that the order would accept him with open arms and be nice to him? No. They would call him out for treason and even tie and hold him in a much tighter and confined place where no one can ever reach him, or even (threaten to) kill him. She never really thought about that? She didn’t even say something like ‘’I respect you leaving and I understand.. but I can not follow you.. I can not leave my brother..’’. IF she atleast said something like that.. that’s just more realistic than begging him to stay for his death and then break down infront of him, in which he feels guilty about, and then ALLEN is comforting LENALEE. Allen is comforting Lenalee in a situation where Allen COULD DIE and tries to calm her down. And when he does leave she reaches for him and acts as if her whole world broke down. She didn’t even stand up and face him saying ‘’goodbye’’ and ‘’goodluck out there’’. No she just made Allen’s last memory of her a bad memory and this memory will fill Allen with guilt for leaving the order.

Even till now I have NEVER seen a posts about people calling Lenalee out for her bad behaviour or even called out her flaws. I have indeed seen people calling her a drama queen who cries waay too much (and even then you can see that they come from the kind of people who get annoyed at all female characters that cry) but even I find that stupid. Girls can cry as much as guys can and visa versa.

But the whole fandom do call out all the male characters out on their flaws. Allen, Kanda, Lavi, Tyki, Link, Cross, Neah, Mana, and probably even more. And they STILL love them. They still love these characters and try to make content where they don’t ignore their flaws. They can bring out the best of them and also show their true flaws.The only female character I have seen from the fandom calling out her flaws is Road, but even then they call her a sadistic demon who loves to hurt others, and even this is over the top. Indeed in the beginning of the series she seemed like that but over time you don’t see her like that anymore. The fan content has become much better of her WITH her flaws, yet some people still potray her as a sadistic demon who doesn’t care about others at all (in fics or art).

And even with Lenalee I have even seen people making fanart or even write fics normalizing Lenalee’s actual bad behaviour.. They accept her threatening her male friends (and never to her female friends) with kicks and hits or saying that if they don’t do as she says, that she will tell Komui that they did something to her or touched her inappropriately and that Komui WILL hurt them. AND EVEN THIS is not canon!? I don’t remember Lenalee saying something like this in canon yet some people make her worse by making her like this.There are only a few rare fics that actually potrays Lenalee as a good character without making her lash out or threatening the guys with either her kicks/fists or with Komui.. but still show her flaws. I have seen content where Lenalee is more like a human being with actual flaws and not some kind of goddess. And that’s the Lenalee I like more. A girl who is nice but does have flaws but still tries to be a good friend and does NOT hurt someone with her kicks or fists.I just don’t like the Lenalee that threatens to hurt someone of they don’t do as she says, in canon or fanon, and don’t even call her out for it. (Or even threatens the guys with Komui.. by saying that she will tell him that they touched her inappropriately?? Again.. I have never seen her do that in canon yet so many potray Lenalee like this) You can call out a characters flaws and still love them. So many people in our fandom love all the male characters and accept their flaws. They still make content of them in their best but also show their flaws and sometimes even portay them better than canon in a realistic way.Why can’t people do the same with Lenalee? Don’t make her the softest and sweetest out of all of them, and then also make her the mother hen, and make her only cry and hurt the guys with her fists and call it ‘’though love’’ or even threaten them with Komui. But make her a realistic person who can be kind but can also make mistakes. Someone who might get angry too fast but then apologies after she noticed her behaviour AND that she was actually in the fault. Let her become angry and let her fight. But don’t make her genuinly hurt her own friends with her fists/kicks, and make them feel guilty by her tears, and say that she does that out of love.. There are a few rare Lenalee’s that fan artists/writers shows her more humanly and real without hurting her own friends and is even better than canon.

I understand that you might have gotten upset and thought that my reply on that question was hate.. but this was something that bothered me so much that it was ignored by both canon and the fandom. But sadly this is with a lot of main female characters. I have seen so many female characters who get angry so fast and hurt their own friends so bad.. yet media shows this as ‘’girl power’’ and ‘’female empowerment’’. This kind of behaviour has been added for comical relief and has been normalized in media with many other series and fandoms that I might not even know of. You can still call out a characters flaw and still love them and sometimes even make better fanon version of them than canon.

But I wish that canon would potray Lenalee much better instead of someone who gets angry too easily and hurts others too extremely. For either plot or comical relief. But I also wished that the fandom didn’t ignore her flaws and call her non-problematic. Lenalee does have much potentional. Yet we never seen any good plot or actual improvements of her. The only badass moment we got of her was when she was fighting the level3 akuma.. but after that she just.. mellowed down.. she promised that she will train and become stronger but we still haven’t seen any of that. And I don’t like it that Gray Log is trying to prove that she is actually doing something, when they don’t even show her trying to improve herself in canon/the manga. Show her actually training. Show her trying to find her way. Show her trying to do something for herself. Show her trying to get better and stronger. Show her as someone who tries to get better and notices her own mistakes and tries to fix them on her own.

#i see in some points with the defense of lenalee that they really were being hypercritical or her tho #at least they believe she can get character development #not everything's so serious tbh #lenalee being a bad role model isn't serious #anyone with a mind of their own and common sense should know that #i meant know that they shouldnt copy her #when its played off as humorous people arent dumb enough to take it seriously to the point they act it out #long post

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