#fighting days behind. but aegis and mitsuru??

[hypogryffin]

side-by-side

[kob131]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ0eboWqFdY

Point 1: Weiss Summons are slow

Counter: (https://youtu.be/x0c_qab80NE?t=734 - https://youtu.be/x0c_qab80NE?t=740 ) Six seconds. I know he uses the clip from Episode 11 but that summon (https://youtu.be/BrlaeR8dFbw?t=716 - https://youtu.be/BrlaeR8dFbw?t=720 ) was interpreted at the 4 second mark. So it’s not that slow.

Point 2: ‘Weiss is a Glass Cannon’

Counter: Mitsuru is also a Glass Cannon as every appearance of her Persona being attacked it’s immediately dissipated and the one time Mitsuru herself was hit in the Persona 3 movies she was winded and it was only a cut to her leg.

Point 3: Weiss can only use her Semblance eight times.

Counter:In the battle against the nevermore, Weiss is shown using multiple glpyhs and constantly using Dust which requires Aura to use. In fact, the scene with Ruby hauling the Nevermore uphill she is using Gravity Dust on numerous glyphs so she logically had more Aura.

Point 4: Weiss doesn’t use these techniques anymore so they shouldn’t be counted.

Counter: Mitsuru does not have her fire weakness covered in the Erebus fight which takes place after her boss fight which you are referencing. She also doesn’t use Diarahan or Mind Charge in P4A which takes place after Erebus and yet you still refer to them. Logically, you shouldn’t make this argument.

Point 5: Weiss’ only pro is her Speed;

Counter: Her glpyhs can be used as shields in combat while Mitsuru has no defensive abilities, her glyphs can be used as platforms in mid air to navigate the fight. Mitsuru has no way of moving around, Weiss uses her rapier far more than Mitsuru, Weiss can act independently from her Summons unlike Mitsuru.

Point 6: Mitsuru has better durability

Counter: In clip shown for Mitsuru ‘tanking an energy blast’: Aegis is shown to be guarding her and the people who weren’t behind Aegis (Yukari and Komorou) are shown to have taken more damage. And in the same fight, Mitsuru’s leg was cut by a stray energy shot that was smaller than the blast. And in the same day, Shinji (a guy with the same power) was killed by a gunshot by a handgun. Mitsuru and Weiss have equally poor durability.

Point 7: Mitsuru has more experience.

Counter: This is iffy because it’s never said how old Mitsuru was and as both the anime and game show, SEES did not spend all their time fighting Shadows. Meanwhile, Weiss’ entire career revolves around fighting. If Mitsuru does have more experience, it’s certainly not more than someone fighting a war (WF Lieutennat) or a second in command bandit (Vernal).

Point 8: Marin Karin and Tentafuroo

Counter: No, Marin Karin wouldn’t fail because ‘Weiss is a girl and Mitsuru is a girl’: it’d probably fail because it only has a 25% chance to work. Same with Tentafuroo. They simply aren’t reliable.

Point 9: Spirit Drain

Counter: Spirit Drain absorbs very little SP and, if we go by your standards, she can’t use it because it doesn’t exist in P4A.

Point 10: Diarahan

Counter: https://youtu.be/Cxn3J6T2qXY?t=54 It’s not instantaneous, it doesn’t heal fully, you can get a free shot in and Mitsuru can’t use this move. This doesn’t apply in P3 but you set the standard (only the latest versions can be used) so there.

Point 11: Personas are invisible

Counter: Itsuki in Persona 3 does not have a Persona but can see them and even then, a camera can record and display Personas and they are incapable of having Personas.

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I might have had SOME respect here if not for the double standard in what should be considered between Weiss and Mitsuru.

Weiss’ older techniques shouldn’t be considered because she no longer uses them and yet Mitsuru’s fire weakness in the Erebus fight, Mitsuru losing Diarahan and Mind Charge and Mitsuru’s lack of a 1v1 record is never brought up.

This isn’t thorough at all. I was more thorough by actually referencing these things instead of just stating them. This is spouting the same arguments everyone else makes and has the same exact issues.

It’s almost as though the discussion of who should win is secondary and the result is what people care about.

[kob131]

Weiss Vs. Mitsuru Death Battle

First off, let me address some points that really irritate me.

‘Persona characters can beat up Gods!’

No, that’s SMT you’re thinking of.

Persona characters aren’t that strong. With Nyx, SEES only ever fought the Avatar (which is never stated how strong it is) and the actual Nyx was only fought by Makoto. In fact, if you take a look at the details of each ‘god’ incident: Makoto sealed Nyx, Izanami’s true form was only ever defeated by Yu and Yabbadoth was only truly defeated by Ren.

Even if we consider them the last two ‘gods’ (we’ll get to that): They aren’t defeated by anyone except the main characters. All of whom are treated by the narrative as being FAR more powerful than their members combined.

Even then, only NYX is an actual god. The others. Izanami and Yabbadoth, are effectively giant Shadows. That’s because Shadows are constructs built by humanity’s collective unconscious and Izanami and Yabbadoth are created from the people trying to ignore the truth and the people warped desires for peace of mind respectively. This is also why they are defeated so easily while Nyx is never defeated: Shadows can be harmed and destroyed by Personas as they are the same kind of creature. Nyx is neither and plays by a completely different set of rules.

Hell, the likes of Izanami and Yabbadoth are really unimpressive when you compare them to the likes of Metatron or Lucifier in SMT. Those guys can legitimately destroy the world like gods while Izanami and Yabbadoth can struggle to effect the world so it kind of tells me Atlus considers them lower in power than Gods (backed up by how Nyx can actually destroy the world.)

Why am I bring this up? Because I know people are gonna point to Erebus as a gotcha and everything I just said about Izanami and Yabbadoth also apply to Erebus (as it’s the collective desire for Death.) And the wild card thing still applies as Aegis gained Makoto’s Wild Card power (and in fact is stronger than Yu.)

‘Erebus is said to crush mountains!’

Said. Never shown. The only possible way for us to quantify this is through using Erebus’ in game stats. And while a STR stat of 80 is strong...Junpei outclass Erebus at Level 99 with 82. So unless anyone has proof that his Persona at least can bust a mountain, I can only assume that the statement was made to be dramatic. Especially considering this statement was said about 4 seconds before Elizabeth one shots this thing.

Not like Weiss is excluded from this bullshit.

‘Aura is infinite!’

That’s stupid and is blatantly untrue.

‘Weiss’ Summon can stop Artemista!’

That’s debatable at best as I don’t know how Aura relates to Personas.

Now let’s actually discuss this battle.

First, I wanna discuss both of their summons. Weiss is able to summon the Armor Gigas, which is a Grimm-possessed suit of armor about three times her size with immense strength (been shown to easily tear apart stone floors with the force of it’s massive broadsword) and durability but is rather klunky and slow. And the Queen Lancer, a giant bee-like Grimm with inherent aerial mobility along with projectiles in the form but it’s not as durable as the Armor Gigas (shown when Hazel punch a Dust blast at it and it dissapated without any shown damage before hand.) And finally the Boartusk...which is pointless. They also take more time to summon than a Persona but

Mitsuru meanwhile has Artemtisa whose rapier doubles as a bladed whip, can use ice attacks as well as being shown to quickly freeze objects around it (as shown in the Persona 4 movies like in the second one where it stabs into the Hierophant shadow and freezes it after being weakened as well as in the third movie where it froze the petals from the Strength Shadow.) In regards to the ice attacks, in Persona 4 Arena she’s shown to be able to create simple constructs from the ice like spears or a mirror. It can also use status effect moves such as Marin Karin and Tentafuroo to disable and cripple the opponent as well as a full power single target healing spell in Diarahan. She can also temporarily boost the power of her next magic attack with Mind Charge by 2.5 times it’‘s normal strength, And finally it has complete ice immunity, meaning ice based attacks do not work on it as well as being immune to non-Shadow enemies.

Issue is that Artemisa is never really shown to be very durable. It’s usually batted away and dissipated with one hit by stronger shadows (albeit in it’s weaker form as Pentelusa) and if we really wanna include gameplay, it has the lowest possible endurance stat in P3. It’s also locked into ice attacks which makes Artemisa’s attacks more predictable, it’s status effect attacks have a base success rate of 25% (if someone can give me the claculations for how the LUCK stat affects the success rate, I’ll adjust with Mitsuru’s 51 LUCK stat). And Artemtisa is weak to fire, which at the very least involves taking 50% more damage. I’ve also never seen Mitsuru and Artemisa act in tandum with each other, with Mitsuru usually treating Artemisa as an extension of herself rather than a separate entity to Mitsuru.

In short: I believe Mitsuru’s Persona is generally better than Weiss’ summon in a direct comparison due to being more powerful and having more skills than the summons but in terms of being used by others, while it is definitively more powerful as well as having a natural immunity to ice, the fact that the summons can act independently of Weiss means Artemisa can be limited in usage.

Now let’s move onto the skills of the combatants.

Weiss’ summons are in fact just an extension of her actual power, a Semblance (ie superpower) known as glyphs which allow her to create platforms in mid air to move around on as well as use as basic shields (she did so in her brief fight against the Boartusk ) Then using a finite resource known as Dust, she can make her glyphs turn dark and effectively change gravity, making the person stick to the top of the glyph. Her glyphs have also been known to add force behind people or objects, such as in Volume 3 Episode 4 where she was quickly launched from glyph to glyph  Weiss also has acess to other forms of Dust, including Ice Dust in which she can create icicles to attack her opponent or walls of ice which have been seen to be able to trap a complex sized scorpion’s stinger within it for a few minutes. She’s also a skilled rapier user as shown through her victory over the Armor Gigas.

Mitsuru has...everything I listed above above with Artemisa, alongside being a skilled rapier user as well (I’d argue better than Weiss but not by much seeing as she’s shown to be effective against lesser Shadows but rarely fighters greater enemies with her own rapier.) Her Persona is her skills aside from her weapon usage.

In terms of skill/versatility, I’d say in a straight rapier fight Weiss would lose but combine that with her glyphs and dust and she’s able to fight on a more even ground with Mitsuru using her Persona as well.

In terms of mobility:

Weiss has access to her glyphs which can be used to leap about in mid air using them as platforms as well as gravity dust allowing for more flexible movement, not to mention how the Queen Lancer is capable of being used as a pseudo ship to move around on.

Mitsuru has...nothing special I can remember. She’s not especially agile nor do her skills give her any extra mobility.

Next we have defensive ability-

They both suck.

Weiss’ track record of losing 1v1 fights is due to her opponents being able to dish out a lot of damage (The WF lieutenant being a buff chainsaw wielding fighter, Flynt’s Trumpet requiring the force of Yang going berserk to break through and Vernal straight up blasting through her ice wall AND Armor Gigas).

And Mitsuru’s Persona dissipates after one good hit while she isn‘t the best at taking hits herself (being disabled from pain by a grazing lazer beam that cut her leg by the Fortune Shadow in the second movie.)

Neither person is good at enduring hits.

Intelligence...

Um, both are consider top of their grade and trained to take control of large corporations. Mitsuru makes more detailed plans but Weiss is able to adjust better...

... I honestly say this is a tie.

Experience.

... This is highly subjective. Neither one began their training at a definitive time, Mitsuru is three years older but by virtue of how tiring the Dark Hour is she can’t fight shadows everyday unlike Weiss with Grimm but Weiss is also younger...

You can see why I have a difficulty making a judgement.

Stamina

Well, Weiss’ best stamina feat is fighting Grimm for an entire day, getting a small amount of sleep before proceeding to fight the White Fang as well as more Grimm...

But Mitsuru’s best feat is her fighting off the hordes of Shadows in the final Persona 3 movie which were more intense and more numerous.

I dunno, I say any difference between the two likely wouldn’t make a difference.

You can understand why I’m a bit nervous about this battle.

The combatants have similar backgrounds, similar feats and similar skills so they’re very matched in a lot of regards and the few things they do have over the other seem to be countered by their own weaknesses (like Mitsuru’s sheer power would beat Weiss down easily if Weiss didn’t have better mobility options and more tools to work with.)

It’s also a reason why I find the reactions around the announcement rather infuriating as when you remove the iffy factors from both sides: the battle doesn’t have a clear winner yet.

All I know is: I hope Weiss loses so Ben and Chad don’t get burned at the stake and so I can shove it DB hater faces about them being biased.