#feanor didn't lisp

[eri-pl]

Asking because you have lots of thoughts on Númenor, do you have any cool ideas on why they valued Quenya names/culture over Sindarin?

- @1-small-world

Thank you for the ask!

I don't think there is one unified Quenya culture. But yes, the language was held in very high regard in Númenor.

Probably because it's the language that the Vanyar spoke - the Elves who actually fought in the War of Wrath. (The exiles and the Sindar didn't, I suppose they were too exhausted at this point). And the future first Númenoreans fight alongside them.

Also everyone except Elu Thingol considers Quenya to be cooler 🤣 But no, seriously, the idea that the Elves who lived with the Valar (and speak Quenya) are more cultured is quite common, I think. Quenya is more difficult and that's why Sindarin is the Elven lingua franca. But Quenya is prettier.

So they spoke Sindarin (and the language of their ancestors; depending on the region of the island and time) but wrote the important documents and took important names in Quenya.

I'm sorry, those ideas aren't cool, they just seem pretty canon to me.

I think this question may have an underlining "why did Númenoreans prefer the Noldor to the Sindar?" and I don't think they did. It's easy to see Quenya as a Noldor thing, but there are two other whole groups that speak Quenya. For most of the story they're in Valinor. But they came to the war. And I think that's just it. The Vanyar were cool, awesome, they came with the Valar or at least some Maiar... Of course Men loved them.

And Númenor in its beginnings was visited by Eonwë (who probably spoke Vanyarin Quenya with them, seems most natural) and by unspecified Elves from Aman, who generally most likely spoke Quenya (unless Telerin is a separate language??? Anyway not Sindarin), because I think the only Elves in Aman to speak Sindarin were the reembodied Sindar if even them (Tolkien had some ideas about how language works with the reembodiment that don't make sense to me, but I digress) and the Sindar who sailed, which... I'm not sure how many failed and when tbh.

We can speculate whether the culture of Númenor was more influenced by the Teleri or by the Vanyar... The language they learned from the Vanyar, the War of Wrath chapter in the Silm mentions this.

I think the visitors would be mostly Teleri and some Noldor (Finrod!).

So yes, the Númenoreans had a lot of contract with Quenya and technically it should be a "th" variety (what people call "the Feanorian lisp" — but actually the Vanyar and the Teler kept this pronounciation too, not only Feanor…) but then the names turn it to "s" so either they did a spontanous shift to S very early (before VIII century SA) or the names we know are modified by later historians. But this whole question deserves some research and a separate post.

TLDR: Because the Vanyar are cooler than the Sindar.

Also, @edennill : you often have more thoughts, and you definitely have more knowledge about Númenor thank me. Any opinions about the topic?

[eri-pl]

Clearly in Quenya, because Feanor didn't even know Sindarin when makin them. The old dialect (thúle, not súle, aka "Feanorian lisp" but that's a very incorrect name, as most of the Noldor used it)

anyway: Hmmm. That's a very good question.

It's possible that Feanor did give them names, but kept them secret. It does sound like him. His sons would probably know, but this knowledge wouldn't reach the Elves who wrote the histories (no, even Elrond).

Or they are too much of a group object and "Silmarilli" is the name and that's it.

If I were to name them… Oh, that is very difficult! Not air-water-earth themed, because this connection was revealed later iirc. But naming them after the Trees doesn't sound right either… Something connecting to grief, hope, loss, avoiding loss, all the emotional stuff connected to them. But what exactly?

If I were to be bold, I'd say he named one of them "Estel' or something closely related (probably a Quenya compound word) and this one ended widely known as Gil-Estel.

So if I were to speculate about the others, keeping this pattern of foreshadowing, the one that ended with Maglor might have something about eternity and/or sorrow in its name. And the third one… ok, here I would go with fire-related, it fits Feanor to do it. But also something about emotions. Something that feels like determination, but more poetic.

Isn't it weird that JRR Tolkien, Mr. Namey McNamerson, who named the Elven rings and all the swords and a battering ram and every scrap of land between Mandos and Rhûn, never named The Silmarils?

How would you name them? Earth, Sky, and Water names? Two-Trees related names? Quenya or Sindarin?

[eri-pl]

Silm reread 0: the letter to Milton Waldman

(which includes some Tolkien's thoughts +a recap of the whole Silm)

After the FA, a quick break (yet another) for the foreword of the book (at least in my edition this letter is there as the foreword)

So we get into authorial intent. Which is (for me) somewhat less important than what's in the book proper and how I read it. Don't treat all that is said here as "I claim it to be canon", it's just what Tolkien wrote in one letter in 1951. Please remember that as we go along.

A lot of talk about myths and fairy tales and that we don't talk about Bruno religion in them, not directly. For reasons that I still can't fully grasp, but also instinctively it seems to make sense, but also I am insecure with talking about relogion, so…

Anyway, Tolkien does not like machines. Yes, I know, but still, I don't really get him. I don't see what's wrong with tools, even automated tools. Also: oh how the Professor would hate generative AIs.

Fefe gets a lot of criticism: He was greedy, his sons were greedy, this is why the Elves had fallen. also, terrible, bad Oath.

Also, Oath explained: it is against anyone who claims a Silmarill or rights to it. So, no, touching it is etc fine as long as you intend to give it to Feanorians ASAP. Nice to know. Also, the oath is about hatered and revenge against abovementioned people, no mention of reclaiming the Silmarils in the explanation of it.

Yes, the idea of Dadgor Dagoradh is Ragnarok-inspired, of course it is but it's nice to see it in writing.

"Beren wins, Lúthien helps." OK I get it why you need this optics, sir (because Beren is less powerful), and I think I can see at least two reasons why you can't genderswap them, but still, I am a little unhappy with this.

Elwing owns the Silmaril, not Earendil (as we were wondering). Also, Elwing jumps into the sea to save the Silmaril, but I'm not sure whether to read it as "because she wants to save the jewel" or "because the story / "Fate" / Ulmo needs the gem saved so she gets a weird impulse and she follows it". And yes, they reach Valinor thanks to the power of the Silmaril.

M&M steal the Silmarils "enslaved" by the Oath. Huh. May be the translation. And they die. If Tolkien kept this version, a whole fanfic genre would not arise. ;D Seriously, "Maglor gets some kind of resolution" is a big genre, maybe the biggest genre of gen Silm fics.

Speaking of "facts we don't like"; the returning Elves live on Tol Eressea. Only.

Sauron in SA starts with beautiful motivation and slowly falls.

The Ruling Ring could be mastered by someone powerful and heroic, but of course it would still not be a good idea. But Sauron wuld be defeated (and replaced by a new Dark Lord).

The Numenoreans learned Quenya during the War of Wrath, from their allies. So, they speak Vanyarin Quenya, ith the "ty" read as "ch" XD Because, let me remind you prom previous reread part, the Noldor did not participate in the war. (But don't worry, iirc this means that they do have the Lisp)

Tolkien never mentions Morgoth's name (neither of them), which is … I get him, but it does stand out. Also, this is the man who didn't want to use a cup with the Ring Verse on it, because it was too evil, he used it only as an ashtray. Sauron is, however, mentioned by name a lot.

Also, I do have some other quirks, so probably shouldn't laugh at the Professor. Like: I would need a good reason to read the Oath of Feanor [prose version] out loud. Everyone has things they attach weight to, I guess.

Ar-Pharazon was a real danger to Valinor, (because the Ainur would not fight him, I think? but why? they fought against Men during the War of Wrath? Or did the Maiar fight only against uMaiar and mosters?) he could wreck it. Huh.

But also, the Valar did get power and permission to deal with it, So they made the world round themselves, thanks to the extra permissions? Or did they only put the Numenoreans under the mountains? Unclear.

Aman moves to the Unseen World, I don't like this version, I don't think it works, I think that in some places with the Valar, with Valinor, tolkien wants to have things both ways (just like the Elves making the Rings of Power did). He wants to make it both vaguely religious and mythological and it's jarring at moments… IDK, maybe it's just me.

Wait, it's spelled Gil-galad? With a small g in the second word? TIL.