#everything is grey! it's complicated but people exist in this world with very varied values and decisions trying to maintain the world

[himi-wiz]

Retrieved tags from @itotypes and gosh that's so well put I'm that compelled to write stuff so hi! I love you! (platonically)

I honestly don't have to be a Mori apologist to affirm the idea that it's never purely black and white with any of the organisations shown in BSD.

While overall the cleanest organisation is the Armed Detective Agency, half of them have blood on their hands including the president Fukuzawa himself and quite a few other members show little to no sign of remorse when they put innocent lives at risk if it meant for necessity or for protecting a loved one.

- Kyouka killed for Atsushi when she had to. Granted she's a scared kid that needs help.

- Tanizaki notably has no issue tricking a truck to hurl at John and Lovecraft in order to save his sister.

- Ranpo developed Fyodor's ways and willingly took in the Conjurer's methods himself for the sake of protecting the Agency and he has no issue threatening to expose Mushitarō's author friend's legacy to the public that might defame the late author's dream, a notably cruel thing to do for a member of the Agency that prides itself on using their members' kindness. It's implied if tested enough Ranpo might be willing to make further sacrifices like Fyodor.

- Slight BSD Manga Mersault spoilers:

Dazai happy wanting Fyodor dead or whatever he's daydreaming in the Fyozai smiling manga panel is. (Can't tell with the suicidal idiot whether he's happy he's dying or he's happy he's dragging Fyodor to his death).

The government in BSD has been shown to be capable of corrupted and cruel acts, particularly through Dark Era, Dead Apple and BSD Gaiden's mentions of higher-ups choosing the easiest and unethical routes to eliminate troublesome blemishes.

For the Special Division —

- The setup and cover up of the Arahabaki Incident aftermath whereby the government obtained and sealed the entity 'Arahabaki' in a child through series of experiments so artificial abilities can be created through combining both abilities and otherworldly entities, resulting in a giant crater from the mess where slums were formed in Suribachi City.

- releasing Shibuzawa during the Dragon Head's Conflict,

- having the Port Mafia deal with Mimic in Dark Era instead of resolving the terrorist group themselves

Other Governmental Agencies and Militaries (Includes other countries)

- The existence of the Seventh Agency, a criminal organisation created by the government to hide scandals, political crimes cover-ups, illegal tactics that regular government workers would not normally comprise, is extremely questionable.

- Whatever the hell is the Great War. Haha. Hahaha. Also Mori please sit the fuck down you're the worst. Yes, your plan on Tokoyami Island is effective and reduces casualties yes but that's so damn stupid and you ruined a perfectly lovely kind girl.

- A lab in Germany was researching Abilities and attempted to create a Singularity without multiple ability users. The project entailed the creation of man-made Ability users, artificial humans implanted with Abilities resulting in them being able to manipulate gravity. France used it to create an artificial human known as Paul Verlaine while Japan has an abducted Nakahara Chuuya (see Arahabaki Incident) and well, we know how that turned out.

- (BSD) Japan's Ministry of Japan is a doozy. In canon we have Tonan Tanzou debuting in S4 Hunting Dogs who harbors a deep hatred towards Yukichi Fukuzawa for assassinating his father and other war hawks who supported the continuation of war during the end of the Great War.

By extension, the Armed Detective Agency is targeted and dude is so willing to resort to any means getting his vengeance(!!!) that he's been gathering evidence to expose the detectives past crimes and humiliate them after the whole sacred ceremony thing.

- In Gaiden, Sakashita is a deputy director or the Ministry of Justice who's capable of using other people just to kill his rivals - just to achieve what he want.

Also look at his ugly mug.

- [BSD S5 Spoilers below (Mostly EP 3 and vague manga ones)]

In Season 5, Fukuchi turns out to be Kamui, the mastermind behind the Decay of Angels while simultaneously being the the greatest military hero. He later revealed to have went through so much torture "from the torturers' side" he was compelled to rid the world of the 'angels' aka the politicians. God damn sir. Why.

But that's how you do know the politicians are kinda shit huh.

Though they aren't shown to be all bad, merely human like with that one politician guy who expresses admiration for Fukuchi and looked to him as a hero bitterly telling him he needed to get rid of his figurines now and Fukuchi apologising. I can't remember if that's spoilers or not, help.

Chief Taneda is quoted by Ango to follow an utilitarianism ethic preferring to sacrifice a single life for the peace of thousands lives and has likely been one of the superiors involved in releasing Shibuzawa during the Dragon's Head Conflict and agreeing to giving a Special Ability licence to the Port Mafia, both decisions that result in lives lost for the sake of peace for the general public and against the Law.

But when this sacrifice includes his own, it's then complicated deciding whether his legacy is "Good" or "Bad" but at the very least it's respected by Ango enough for him to step up and vow vengeance for Taneda.

Everytime someone brings up how Chuuya is a bad person cause he stayed with the PM while others left always makes me wonder if they forget that others left because they had someone guide them or some opportunity to leave.

For Kyouka it was Atsushi, for Dazai it was Oda, for Yosano it was Ranpo and Fukuzawa's support. Koyou tried and had her chance taken away from her that left her bitter and terrified of leaving or letting others leave, Chuuya's chance more or less died with Murase. Like bro...even Mori took over out of necessity cause he had to uphold the tripartite system and the old boss was destroying not just the mafia but the city itself. (Reminder the mafia protects the city where the law and the ADA cannot, the Mafia can cross lines that neither of the other two can to protect the city).

Everyone in the light is there because someone or something guided them there and literally no one feels superior to the other for their morality and virtue. I see people constantly present Kunikida as this pretentious morally superior guy but he isn't, he'd kick morals to the curb if he felt that was the right thing to do.

Everyone in bsd functions on a very personalized set of morals. They exist in shades of gray and anyone leaning too far towards right or wrong is often portrayed as an extremist and an antagonist.

[goldenkamuyhunting]

Hi! So, Ogata is my favorite character, and I’ve been trying to figure out his whole like, philosophy. I’m not sure if you’ve covered this before, but maybe you could help me understand something that seems contradictory to me? It’s about him basically thinking that everyone is the same as him, but, in ch.103, after he’s killed Yuusaku and is killing his father, he says: “a child born from two parents who don’t love each other...grows up to be an adult who’s lacking something fundamental, don’t you think?” so he’s acknowledging that he IS different, right? That he’s “missing something,” BECAUSE his parents didn’t love each other, so why would he say (in ch.243) “everyone‘s the same deep down,” and (in ch.187) “I’m sure you’re the same as me” (to Asirpa) and “‘pure’ people don’t exist in this world,” when he says Yuusaku “grew up to be a man with integrity...because he was born to two people who loved each other” (ch.103)?

I’m just confused with his logic...like, he seems to acknowledge that Yuusaku turned out differently than himself because his brother had parents who loved each other, and he didn’t, that he’s “lacking something fundamental.” So...why does he continue to believe that “everyone is the same as [him]” (ch.165)? I know he doesn’t WANT to think he’s different, so he wants to believe “everyone’s the same deep down” (ch.243) and before he kills Yuusaku he says “whether or not your parents love you doesn’t cause any difference at all in what a person becomes” (ch.243), but after he killed him, and his father still didn’t love him, it showed Ogata that, basically, yeah, they turned out differently because one lacked love from his parents and the other didn’t, and he even says that, so why does he insist everyone is the same as him? Am I missing something with his reasoning?

Welcome in the club of those who like Ogata as a character!

He’s undoubtedly one of the most interesting in the story and one of the hardest to figure up.

In regard to your question we don’t have a canon answer but, for me, his words need to be read in context and not as an extreme generalization WE ARE ALL EXACTLY THE SAME as Ogata is clearly aware we’re the same only on certain things and on other things WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT.

We know he’s aware of our differences, not just only because he acknowledged himself as a child lacking something, or because he knows he has characteristics other don’t have and viceversa (he can shoot, Sugimoto can’t, Koito is a spoiled, beloved rich prince, he’s poor and without family love) but also for bits like the one in which he acknowledged HE couldn’t do it (meaning someone else could).

‘Yappari ore de wa dame ka, umaku ikan monda na.’

やっぱり俺では駄目か、うまくいかんもんだな

Of course though, although humans are all different among them, they also share many traits in common and it’s to those traits he’s referring when he says others are the same as him.

So to better dig into all this let’s look at what he says.

‘Minna ore to onaji hazu dasu.’

みんな俺と同じはずだす

Lit: “Everyone should be the same as me” though I’ve been told in this contest it means more “I believe everyone is the same as me”. [Chap 165]

In this bit Ogata is not saying ‘everyone is the same’, just that people doesn’t feel guilty when killing people in the same way as he doesn’t.

The first thing to note is that in the manga we see that, as Ogata says so his image is covered by a swirling screen which Noda uses to point out how a character is inside himself not as calm as he looks on the outside but is haunted by swirling emotions.

So, although Ogata looks calm on the outside, this topic actually haunts him on the inside... and Noda confirms this in in chap 243, when Ogata asks confirmation to Usami.

You don’t ask confirmation of something you’re confident about, which means Ogata doesn’t feel so confident about the whole ‘nobody feels guilty’, in fact he asks confirmation to Usami.

There’s a really old post I made in relation to Ogata’s words but GK actually digs a lot in how everyone feels guilty but everyone also copes with guilt in different ways, the most common being ‘suppressing it’.

Ogata, as a child, killed his own mother in the fruitless attempt to bring his father back to her and had to cope with what he had done from a very young age which taught him, better than to other, how to suppress that feeling.

The story clearly hints he feels guilty for having killed Yuusaku yet Ogata is in full denial about it.

The story also has plenty of people in full denial about it. What Yuusaku is missing in his picture of ‘everyone feels guilty’ is that soldiers have to survive it or they would crumble after their first kill and unable to continue fighting and Yuusaku playing the pure icon is nowhere near enough.

Ogata is surrounded by people who’re taught by the army itself to suppress their guilt.

Sugimoto didn’t invent his belief his enemies were ‘bad, heartless people’ this was what was taught to soldiers.

Ogata takes people’s copying mechanisms against feeling guilty at face value, assuming they’re not copying mechanisms but the truth of those people. He sees them not as people trying to fight guilt by suppressing it, but as people not feeling it... with good reasons or he should face he too is suppressing his guilt and therefore should also face feeling guilty.

That’s where his belief steems and why it’s shaky, because it’s based on a lie people tell themselves to survive... but ironically this makes them all (or most of them all) the same. They’re all copying with guilt and trying to suppress it by denying it in various different ways.

Very likely part of Ogata’s story arc will include how he’ll be forced to accept he actually regrets what he did, and if he’s denying it is only because he’s not ready to face his own guilt.

Going on.

‘Omae datte ore to onaji hazuda’

お前だって俺と同じはずだ

Lit: “You too should be the same as me” and yes, it’s the same construct as the previous so this too means “I believe you too are the same as me”. [Chap 187]

Here Ogata is talking of something different by what he talked previously. Here he’s not talking about guilt but about how everyone can kill if he has the right motivation, and one of the saddest things in the world is he’s right.

The world isn’t like a fairy tale, with people cut into two factions, the ones who’re good and would never be able to do something wrong and the ones who’re bad and can only do wrong.

There are many shades of grey and the hardest thing to swallow is that with the right motive, we can do more or less everything.

Of course ‘the right motive’ is a very broad concept.

There are those terrible people who do it for the lowest motives, racism, greed, hate, boredom, religion... but there’s also who would do it because he’s enlisted in an army, or in self defence, or to protect another, or in a moment of point break rage, out of revenge, in desperation, under the belief they’re stopping the pain of the person they’re killing (euthanasia) and so on.

It’s something my psychology teacher warned us about, how actually, given the proper motivation which vary from person to person, in the right setting which again wary from person to person, we can end up doing terrible things we wouldn’t do in normal circumstances... and that’s why believing ‘I would NEVER do this’ is actually counterproductive.

You’ve to be aware there’s always the risk in the future you could do something at the present you know you’ll loathe doing, and the best way to still stop yourself when that time will come is to be aware of how that time can come and prepare yourself to fight it.

Awareness you might be weak and preparation to face such weakness is your last defence line to stop yourself.

Anyway Ogata believes what would make Asirpa tick is a wish for revenge, which was really popular back then and on which Sugimoto had counted as well when he has involved her in the gold hunt.

Asirpa didn’t want to take part to the gold hunt nor didn’t want to kill, Sugimoto said she however wants her father’s killer dead and she could have him killed by proxy, by turning his life useless to his captors, without her having to dirty her hands killing him (or the convicts as Sugimoto planned to do that by himself).

As you can see both Sugimoto and Ogata believed AVENGING HER FATHER would be a powerful motivator for Asirpa and, in Sugimoto’s case, she’ll accept to take part to the gold hunt while in Ogata’s case she’ll be seriously tempted to just do it. It’s to Asirpa’s credits she manages to restrain herself... but it’s interesting to see how later she’ll tell herself she’s ready to kill to protect Sugimoto...

...but then, when she considers doing it to protect herself, it’s the memory of almost killing Ogata what stay her hand.

In short it’s the memory of the sense of guilt she felt in that circumstance what stopped her... and that’s why soldiers were taught to suppress that guilt, because they should kill again and again.

On the other side what’s Yuusaku’s reason for not killing?

His father told him not to.

It’s not that he found it morally wrong or something, it’s just his father told him not to. There’s to wonder if, had Hanazawa told him the opposite, to kill as many as he could, Yuusaku would have been a killing machine.

There’s not deep refusal of killing what moves Yuusaku when he refuses to kill, it’s just obedience to his father’s words. Yuusaku doesn’t say words he had come to believe because he had thought about them, he’s merely quoting Hanazawa. This is probably why Yuusaku doesn’t manage to reach or understand Ogata back then, because there’s no understanding in what he says, just acceptance what his father said has to be true.

But I’m digressing.

So to sum up.

If you ask me Ogata isn’t contraddicting himself.

He’s aware people are different on some matters and the same on others because people are deliciously complicate like that.

Ogata is also right on the fact we all have the potential to kill in the right situation and for the right reason but messes up on the guilt part because he’s working with wrong information about himself and the others and therefore fails to understand this part.

However, since guilt had seemed to be one of the theme tied to his character the discussion might come up again and he might come to understand this better... or Noda might decide to explore why he’ll never overcome his maladaptive copying mechanisms and acknowledge he felt guilty.

We’ll see. I hope I was of some help! Thank you for your ask!