#everything disclaimer in case someone feels compelled to explain it to me or whatever...

[maddy-ferguson]

This feels like my ga viewer parents or my sister who do not like byler because they do not like mike. The classic 'i do hate mike and will deserves better' mindset. I am afraid the duffers consequentially created negative outcome when they tried to make the ga feel sorry for will and wanted to tank mlvn by making it more cringe than it already is. it made many people either dislike mike, see will as a ''crybaby'' and not care for byler because they did not enjoy their dynamic.

yeah exactly like i think people are supposed to not be enamored with mike rn but idk i find it crazy in general that people who do think he's queer (twt bylers) and thus have some idea of what he's been going through seem to still have little to no empathy for him. because that's supposed to be the missing piece that's keeping the general audience from connecting with him yk so if you have that and you still barely like him it's like...idk. then it's kind of on them but also maybe once it's on screen and it feels more tangible they'll feel for him more. i feel like the lack of empathy might also have to do with the difference in time period a bit? like with people insisting (not in so many words) that he has to not know he's gay or he would be an awful person for still being with a girl etc. i think like you said and like people have said before instead of leading to people disliking them as a couple all the bad mlvn scenes made people not only dislike but hate mike. and like i just said i think part of it's intentional they had to know people would be frustrated with him but they're sooo frustrated with him...and i think part of the reason why is like anon said the only thing people remember him doing this season is complaining about his girlfriend to the guy who's in love with him. which sounds frustrating just writing it

[mybg3notebook]

The "Stew" Scene

Disclaimer Game Version: All these analyses were written up to the game version v4.1.104.3536 (Early access). As long as new content is added, and as long as I have free time for that, I will try to keep updating this information. Written in June 2021.

In these “scene posts” I will explore the scene of the title looking for the information in the dialogues. What I will be looking for is how much Gale “lies”, how much lore is provided, and any extra detail that may be of our interest to highlight. At the end of these posts there are summary points for those who don't want to read the whole post.

Additional disclaimers about meta-knowledge and interpretations in this (post) while disclaimers about Context in this (one).

The scene of the "stew" has two versions. One for medium or higher approval (in which we see the stew reference) and one for neutral or lower approval (in which we lack any stew). Let's analyse first the most common one. 

I'm a bit surprised at the lack of reading skill of some players. Many claim that Gale is coercing you to give him artefacts and agree to this deal before even telling you such a request. If you read the scene, and you understand what he is saying, it's clearly not the case:

[Medium approval version] Gale: [stew and list of good actions] In short: I've grown to trust you. […] I need you to place your trust in me. […] I feel compelled to speak. I say this because there is something I desperately need, but while I'll tell you what that something is, I won't tell you why. I have to ask you to agree to this before carrying on with this conversation. Tav: No. It's unfair to demand blind faith in you. Gale: I understand that I'm asking for a lot, but I can't tell you everything. Not yet anyway. Please, reconsider. […] I have a... condition. A condition different from the tadpole, but just as deadly. [...] The only way to “appease” said condition is for me to take a powerful magical artefact and absorb the Weave inside. It's been days since I last consumed an artefact, before we were abducted. It is time. By that I mean it's Imperative that I find and consume powerful strands of Weave at the earliest possible juncture. 

I don't want to explain the obvious, but it is apparently needed: Gale is not asking Tav to agree to give him artefacts before explaining the situation. Gale is asking Tav to refrain from their curiosity despite the secrecy of the situation. He will explain "what" he needs (artefacts), but he won't explain "why" he needs them (he won't disclose the “orb” and its link with Mystra). This situation is pretty close to talking to an ill person who needs some drug: they are asking you to give it but they won't disclose their illness and their origin, because it's private information that a stranger is not entitled to have. Specially if such illness will not affect you (as Gale tries to maintain his situation under control so nobody has to deal with it) 

Some players are spreading the misconception that Gale forces you to agree to give him artefacts before establishing the deal.... when he only is asking you not to question why he needs artefacts. Why are these people reading so wrong?

Later, we can understand that the "why" also has deep personal implications he doesn't want to disclose yet. It's also funny that Gale says he won't explain the why, but you can have a blunt indirect answer of the 'why' when you ask him about what happens if he doesn't consume artefacts: "catastrophe". Which exposes that, whatever is happening with him, is very worrisome. In the end, Gale said a very generalised 'why he needs artefacts' in one word. If we are allowed to have a far-stretched interpretation, we could almost consider that Tav outsmarted Gale with that question: we are well aware 'why' he needs to consume artefacts, because otherwise a catastrophe will happen.

So, once more—as it happened during his meeting on the road—what he is doing is setting a boundary. I don't know why some people angrily think he is "coercing" the player into giving him artefacts at this point of the conversation. It's not what's written! He is asking to respect his privacy when it comes to personal information.

In this way, he is setting the conditions in which this conversation will happen from the beginning. This is a gesture of the trust exchange he wants to have with Tav. The easiest way for Gale to avoid all this situation would have been plainly lying, but he opted for an honest approach with clear voiced reservations.

If we refuse to agree to listen to the "what" because the "why" won't be explained, Gale will be disappointed. 

Tav: I'm still going to say no. / No, I won't. And that's final. Gale: That's... truly disappointing. I see now that I misjudged you, so we'll dwell on the matter no longer. And at least I know where I stand. This is a part of the journey I must walk alone. Good night.

Again, some people understand this as a "coercion". We need to look for the meaning of the words once more: oversimplifying it, coercion is the practice of influencing someone to do something by using force, social pressure, or threats. I can't see where the threat or the force is done by Gale. He is voicing facts: Gale explicitly says he is disappointed; he was trusting Tav in accepting that boundary before talking. This is a diplomatic and explicit negotiation with clear terms. He says he misjudged Tav, which is also true, since he thought the exchange of trust was possible despite that boundary set due to Tav's good heart. Gale knows that this Tav cares for the well-being of creatures since it is obvious after witnessing their good deeds done up to the moment. Then, Gale stated that he would solve this problem alone without any “guilt trip” as some players say. Later in the game we know that one way he finds to do it is with Raphael's deal, an action described by the game archives and some players as “Gale's betrayal”. Everything in Gale's quests feel like an over-magnification of everything when it's supposed to be a game for adults. This detail made me wonder if Gale's character was not modified several times until being part of the game. More details of this are commented on in the post of the"Orb".

If we intrude into his mind with the tadpole and fail, we obtain this:

Tav: [Wisdom] you sense secrecy and danger. Use your tadpole to probe Gale's thoughts. [Failure] Gale: I'm afraid that's not going to work on me. Look, I appreciate your curiosity, but don't pursue this path. Let's agree on actions first and explanations later, yes?

He isn't angry with Tav because he can block their intrusion before they could see anything, but he insists once more that Tav should give him an answer about whether they accept to talk in his terms about not asking the "why" of his need (now more obvious than before that Tav wants to know). The "explanations" will come later. And this curious line of Gale also shows, in my personal interpretation, how much he has been burnt with Mystra's words that seemed to be weak by the lack of actions. He needs actions to trust in someone now, words are not enough. He had been called Chosen, and it ended up not being the case. However, he keeps doing an honest approach: instead of lying to avoid any questioning, Gale explicitly states his limits, and Tav can agree or not to them. Diplomacy rather than manipulation.

If Tav uses the tadpole before agreeing, succeeds, and then is honest with Gale about what they saw in his mind, Gale will attempt to leave the party because, at this point, he realises he is in danger: Tav is using the tadpole and he is not aware of it because he trusted Tav. Gale probably thinks that Tav may find out how dire his condition is and would consider him a danger to exterminate. As an extra, there is also the horror situation of having the privacy of his own head violated. If Tav manages to reason with Gale and keeps him in the party, he will reinforce his need for privacy and explain the reason of why: 

Tav [persuasion]: Be reasonable, Gale. I'm responsible for our party. I had to know.  [success] Gale: The need remains debatable, but I recognise your responsibility. Perhaps I spoke in haste, it's just that... there are things... things I cannot speak of. Besides, what you saw... You read the opening line of a very big book, no more. The darkness you perceived, that is my primary condition. A condition different from the tadpole, but just as deadly. The only way to “appease” said condition... [same as before]. 

If Tav doesn't play too evil, Gale will eventually open up to explain his secrecy in the future. The Loss scene is a very good example of how truly hard this situation is for him: the verbose char who can't shut up, can't find the words to explain what he lost. This is a potent narrative tool used to tell us that something deep and painful is stuck in him. More details in the post "Loss Scene".

Now, if we see the “stew” scene with a neutral or lower approval [watch video], we obtain a very different one:

[Neutral or lower approval version] Gale: Spare me a moment, if you please. I've something important to discuss with you. We've been travelling together for a while now and it's just about time that I shared something with you. It's a rather personal matter that I'd have preferred to keep quiet, but needs must when the devil drives. I have no choice but to speak. You see, I have a... condition. A condition different from the tadpole, but just as deadly. The only way to “appease” said condition [same as before]

First, the scene will trigger after a longer time, implying that Gale is trying to not speak with a Tav whose actions are keeping him in neutral or lower approval (we can infer Tav is rpg-playing rather evil since Gale is quite an approval compulser). So Gale wants to keep his primary condition a secret as long as possible since he doesn't trust in this Tav.

Second, since Tav clearly is playing somewhat an evil path, Gale doesn't like this Tav, so he doesn't care in giving them meaningful gestures of courtesy. Again, we see a diplomatic but honest approach: Gale will explicitly voice his dislike for this Tav if the disapproval continues. This would be an uncommon attitude if Gale were a truly manipulative character: no matter their approval, they will remain pleasing Tav until they obtain what they are looking for. It's not the case here. Gale is not interested in exchanging trust with this “evil” Tav, he just wants to deal with the situation and parts ways (the lower approval, the clearer this concept). Therefore, the whole scene about the friendly stew and the "let's agree first that you won't ask why I have this condition" is not present at all. This shows that the stew scene was an honest friendly gesture he won't offer to someone he doesn't like/trust. Gale is so mistrustful of this Tav that there won't be a chance to have access to his mind via tadpole either (See this point in the post of “The Tadpole”).

With a neutral or lower approval, Gale will not ask Tav to trust in him. He doesn't trust Tav either, and there is no promise to speak and disclose his condition later. Gale clearly is more mindful and caring with a medium or higher approval Tav that he is starting to see as a good companion/friend, while with a neutral or lower approval Tav he cares little about keeping the contact with them.

In any case, both versions converge once Tav is informed about the need for artefacts. Tav has four options to determine if they agree or not in giving Gale artefacts. The options in which Tav doubts are:

Tav: When I acquire powerful magic items, I'm not so sure I'll choose you over them. / I can tell you right now I don't care at all for this wild Gale chase. Gale: That's your decision to make. I expect you to make the right one. Much is at stake. More than my own meagre life alone.

When Tav makes clear they won't probably give him artefacts, Gale is giving them a free choice. I repeat: giving artefacts to Gale was never decided before. Even after this conversation is not even decided, since it's still Tav's decision to make his words into actions. Gale was also more than clear in his narration that there is more at stake than his own life alone. And considering what we know in retrospect, Gale is right: he is desperate to live but also wants to avoid killing innocents in a massive way (a concept he repeats every time his life is in danger, showing that he keeps the idea constantly present). Some people insist this is coercion, again. Could these words be interpreted as a threat? Anyone is free to interpret anything in the way they want to; I personally can't see any threat, because it's a fact, a real problem: we know that Gale without artefacts can explode dramatically and cause Game Over. He is not threatening Tav, he is being clear about the consequences of not taking his request seriously. If this were not enough, when the scene finishes, we can have extra information talking with him:

Tav: Tell me more about that condition of yours [Tav saw it with the Tadpole] Gale: You've already seen more than I was willing to share, remember? Best leave the darkness in darkness for now. [Tav did not use the Tadpole] Gale: That's part of the 'why' you agreed not to discuss. Wouldn't want to make an oath breaker out of you.

If the player did not understand previously what they were agreeing with, Gale repeats it here. It's the “why”, not the unconditional delivery of powerful artefacts. This is why I'm worried about the comprehension skills of some players. This is not a matter of interpretation: it's plainly written and repeated in the game many times.

Curiously, despite having agreed not to ask about the why, Tav can push Gale a little bit, and he still provides a small details that give a bigger perspective of his issue:

Tav: What happens if you don't consume any artefact? Gale: Catastrophe.

This is the answer for the question "why do you need to consume artefacts?" In the end, Gale provided it without details. So, saying that Tav is completely oblivious to the danger in Gale's chest seems rather unfair. Because this information is provided to any Tav, no matter their picked options across the dialogues. It's true that Tav doesn't know the details of it, but the big picture of it is clear. The only way a Tav can't have this information is a Tav who never interacted with Gale at all.

Whether Tav accepted to deliver artefacts or not, the scene finishes with:

Gale: I know the allure these artefacts hold, I understand their value and their power. All this to say: I understand the sacrifice I ask of you. I hope I can count on you. 

Again, some people understand that last sentence as coercive. Given the context in which it is made, I personally consider this as the confirmation of how important this matter is for Gale. Gale is simply communicating that he is very aware this trust is a leap of faith in a stranger, but he still hopes.

It's not by chance that this scene is required to happen to trigger the Weave scene later. From a narrative and integral point of view, the trust that Tav gave him during the Stew scene is afterward paid with the Weave and the Loss scene. Let's remember that Gale would only ask for that trust if Tav is of medium or higher approval, so the Weave scene comes naturally (bugs aside, of course). The neutral and low approval Tav is never asked for that trust and therefore the Weave scene never happens (if their approval keeps going down). In fact, Gale can leave permanently without any chance of convincing him to stay if he reaches very low approval (a really evil, maddening path can accomplish this). What I mean is that, from a narrative point of view, the Weave and the Loss scenes are Gale's way to return that trust that Tav gave him first during the stew scene and the first artefact consumption.

The Weave was not a premeditated scene by Gale, as it's stated in the Dev's notes:

Dev's notes: When the player approaches, he dispels the image and he feels embarrassed to have been caught doing what he was doing. The conversation turns to his passion for magic however, and he invites the player to try to cast a spell with him together. […] He was recalling Mystra as a lover, but doesn’t say that out loud. 

This scene happened by surprise, triggered by Gale's deep loneliness: Tav startled him when he was longing for Mystra while seeing her image in his incantation. We know Gale's mental state in this moment is a very lonely one since if Tav tells Gale to go to sleep, preventing the Weave scene, Gale will explicitly say: "Long days, yes. And long, lonesome nights.” 

He shares in that moment how important and vital magic is in his life, and only then, considering the previous actions done by Tav (for sure the consumption of one artefact, additionally could be the death protocol), Gale finds himself willing to share this experience. It's important to highlight that this is too personal for Gale, too important, and a bit painful too, since we know later (second dream) that every time he connects with the Weave, he meets Mystra's disappointment: "What magic I can still weave is met only with undercurrents of disappointing silence.”

After a moment of rambling, Gale invites Tav to share the Weave. Here is where all the branches about explicit display of Tav's romantic interests can be developed, a neutral option for a friendship path, or Tav can have very aggressive and violent reactions. More details about this scene can be read in the post of "Gale Hypotheses- Part 2", section: "Proposition to Cheat". And again, for a char so guarded of his own privacy and personal stuff, sharing the Weave can be clearly seen as the return of the trust that Gale received from Tav during the stew scene.

Similar analysis can be done with the Loss Scene, where Gale will try to open up about what he lost, and depending on Tav's options, he may confess his pain in losing Mystra. For more details, read the post of "Loss Scene". This scene can be interpreted as another gesture of trusting Tav after they helped him with his chest problem. 

Summary of the Stew Scene: 

Medium or higher approval version: Gale introduces his request with the stew. He makes a friendly approach, asking for an exchange of trust: he needs Tav to agree not to ask him why he has his condition. Gale presents this as a personal boundary since the explanation is personal matter related to his experience with the orb and his romantic life with Mystra. He doesn't ask Tav to agree in giving him artefacts before explaining the request, as some players seem to misunderstand. Then, he presents the problem and his need for consuming artefacts, leaving the decision to Tav to give him them or not.

Neutral or lower approval version: There is no need to place a boundary. Gale is certain that Tav cares little for him, so they will not ask about his condition and well-being. He presents the problem and his need for consuming artefacts, leaving the decision to Tav to give them or not to him.

This post was written in June 2021. → For more Gale: Analysis Series Index

[ohlvca-blog]

INTRODUCING,

» francisco lachowski & twenty-two & cismale.「 after checking isabella’s diary, we saw luca rosario show up many times. apparently, he is a fashion photographer that isabella called her mutual friend. she mentions that they can be compassionate yet naive, and our background check says luca has lived here one month. if we move fast, we might catch them at the photo lab. 」

waddup, peeps ?? this tiny bean goes by the name of rue ( she/her ) and i’ll be playing Soft Boy™, luca rosario. he’s pretty much a new faceclaim for me with an old character’s background. however, francisco has recently become my forever Fave, therefore i’m so excited to have the opportunity to play him !! if you would like to hmu for plots / scream about connections all day long, please give this a LIKE and i’ll come wiggling into your ims ( or discord; find me at justrue#2233 ) shortly after. under the cut, you’ll find a brief summary about luca and his life. also all my wcs are listed over HERE if you wanna check that out as well. can’t wait to start interacting !! 

+ disclaimer: very slight talks of cancer and mental health are below. read at your discretion.

LAYER ONE: THE STATS.

NAME. luca leonardo rosario. he was born out of wedlock, so he took his mother’s name at birth even though his father’s surname is polish.

ALIAS. people usually just call him by luca but sometimes luke, luki, or leo make an appearance.

TITLE. over time, he has proudly deemed himself an obsessive pizza addict, artistic nutcase, or one of the missing dead poets society members.

NAME MEANING. his true significance of his name means a bringer of light.

AGE. twenty-two years old.

GENDER IDENTITY. cis-male.

PRONOUNS. he/him.

SEXUAL ORIENTATION. predominately panromantic demisexual. it isn’t so much so that luca is completely disinterested in sex (he’s got a perfectly good libido, thank you very much), he just doesn’t find himself sexually attracted to people based on physical appearance or initial impressions. instead he finds personality, intellect, and existing emotional attachment considerably more compelling. the idea of intimacy with somebody he’s not close with rather repulses him.

CURRENT RESIDENCE. he currently lives in venice, california but he travels quite often for his job, so residency usually fluctuates depending on how long he stays there. 

BIRTHPLACE. san paulo, brazil.

NATIONALITY. brazilian.

ETHNICITY. half portuguese and german on mother side, half polish on father side.

RELIGION. he was raised roman catholic but converted to spiritual agnosticism when he was eighteen. he views that universal ethics and love are far more important than claims about any deity and trivialize the arguments supporting or rejecting such claims. to luca, it doesn’t matter which religion someone might follow, nor does it matter whether or not someone believes in God. what matters is what someone does, not what they believe. he has his parents’ full support in his switch even though the rest of his family practices catholism.

SPOKEN LANGUAGES. portuguese (fluent/main), english (fluent/2nd main), french (still learning but can understand it quite well).

EDUCATION. graduated with the bachelor of fine arts in photography and painting at the school of visual arts in nyc.

PROFESSION. he works as a full-time fashion/commercial photographer. meaning, he works with different agencies such as fashion magazines, building, modeling, landscapes, etc. he’s also usually on location and travels a lot for his career.

LAYER TWO: THE STORY.

- so this is my baby boy, luca rosario and i love him sm ?? he usually goes by luca, but on occasion people call him either luke, luki, or leo. but he doesn’t care what people call him as long as it’s kind.

- luca was born in san paulo, brazil to both loving and supportive parents named jeremi and mariana. he lived there until he was six years old when his family moved to maryland because his parents, who are both marine biologists, were relocated for work.

- his parents had him when they were both young, making his parents both twenty-two when he was born. 

- luca was also born out of wedlock, so by the time his parents decided to marry two years later, his parents had already made the decision to give him his mother’s maiden name even though his father’s last name is polish.

- growing up, he had and still does, have a great relationship with his parents. with his childhood consisting nothing more than love and devotion from his parents, luca had nothing to complain about. his parents loved him dearly, whose pure heart and open-mindedness they helped to cultivate. they encouraged luca’s belief in extraordinary things and hoped he had carried it throughout his life growing up. his parents had always made him promise to have courage and be kind to others, for—as they explained to him—kindness has power, and that they would see him through all the trials that life could offer, in life and death.

- cancer/mental illness tw: when he was thirteen, his mother had been diagnosed with cervical cancer. upon hearing the news, luca’s whole world clasped. not only was he at a pivotal stage in his life where everything was changing and becoming more stressful ( becoming a teenager, starting high school, going through puberty ), one of the most important people in his life had be claimed by the deadly disease altogether. so many thoughts and feelings were going through his mind at the time, that he ran himself physically sick and had experienced his first panic attack. he has since been medically diagnosed with panic disorder. thankfully the cells on his mother’s cervix were diagnosed at precancerous stage and the doctors were able to treat it because it developed and spread. however, that didn’t and doesn’t stop luca from being in a constantly state of panic every time his mother so much as feels pain or coughs due to irrelevant reasons. the entire year had changed him and his family for a while.

- he has brother, who is three years younger than him, named tomás. his relationship with his brother, however, is a bit estranged. as much as he loves his brother and wishes they could see eye-to-eye, sometimes they have a tendency to butt heads often. whether that might mean your typical sibling arguments or full-on blown out fights, they just can’t seem to see get along. sometimes people believe they aren’t actually related or that they’re half siblings because when his brother was born, he took their father’s last name.

- most people would describe luca as the benevolent. despite being in a world where there’s hatred and suffering, luca declares himself independent and strong-willed by remaining kind-hearted and self-loving, not allowing the bitterness surrounding his life to overtake him and morph him into someone as cruel as the world seems to be every day. he makes the most of his life by remaining optimistic of the possibilities of a brighter future. but besides that, he’s also witty and sarcastic. he is unafraid to stand up for himself when he feels he’s in the right–or at least, attempt to do so. and although he strives to contain his optimism aura, he can fall into fits of frustration and annoyance quite often.

- he’s also super quiet and shy. he loves to make friends but because of his quiet complex, he usually has trouble speaking up and making his voice heard. he tends to become flustered a lot too when he can’t express his emotions; which he has trouble doing anyway when he’s not flustered.

- luca is capable of enduing tremendous hardship. though he may not handle difficulty in the healthiest or best way, often repressing emotion, he mostly like emerges on the other side. he doesn’t know how to express his emotions in a diplomatic way, but rather fumbles it all up and starts to ramble. rarely opens up because of this.

- to put it plan and simple luca is an art ho. he even went to university for it too ( the audacity of it all smh ). luca always loved anything artistic. even when he was little, he would go around with his disposable camera and take pictures of everything and then take to paper to draw of all the things he had taken pictures of as well. 

- he’s like a hippie dippy child of the universe. no joke. no seriously, his place at home is full of sensual shit and art. it’s getting out of hand and somebody needs stop him soon.

- he strongly believes that art is an umbrella term that relates to expressing of oneself ( not just through photography and painting ) and that everyone has the freedom to express themselves however they please. because of his beliefs, he chooses to break gender roles like bread and wears whatever the fuck he wants because yolo.

-  his appearance pretty much represents his hippie dippy lifestyle with him wearing all sorts of cute hipster shit. he’s clothes are v flow-y but don’t let that fool you. he doesn’t miss the opportunity to represent his upper-middle class within his style, so he does dress to impress, let me tell you ( he’s a fashion ho too ). his hair color changes sometimes too depending on his mood but it’s generally never too eccentric.

- when he turned seventeen, luca decided he wanted to go to college after high school. so he applied to an arts school in new york and graduated at twenty-one with two degrees in photography and painting.

- for about a year after graduating, he took some time to create his own freelance business while also looking for jobs in the commercial and industrial world of photography. about a three months ago, a fashion agency, settled in california, had contacted him about loving the work he had done in his freelance business and offered him a job as their full-time photographer. of course he accepted the job and moved out to venice, california. he’s been there for a whole month and hasn’t looked back since.

- upon hearing the news of isabella souza’s murder and also being a suspect in the case, luca’s kind of been on edge since. granted, he never knew isabella all that well, considering he met her through a mutual friend of theirs about as long as he’s lived in venice and became rather decent friends because of it. but to know someone killed her, freaks him out. he never met someone who has been a victim of a homicide case before and frankly, he doesn’t know how to act since the news broke.

[piccolina-mina]

I love you @witchwolfmouse. I love you with my whole heart

Honestly, and respectfully OP, it's literally EVERYTHING said above with a big cosign. Since I mentioned the pair the spares bit myself, I can speak for myself in that regard when I say it's literally everything said above and that's it.

The irony of this is no one, absolutely NO ONE has said Maria and Kyle are an awful ship. Even those criticizing those in fandom desperate to pair the two spares together to protect the ships they care about aren't saying Kyle and Maria is a bad ship. I'm literally one of those people who is side-eying some people's motivation behind shipping two characters that haven't even interacted, but I have also admitted (as have others like myself) that I'm totally game for the show exploring it for a lot of the reasons you mentioned, and I cannot wait to actually see the two of them interact because they probably will have fun chemistry and could be a cute ship.

There are like a handful of genuine Kyle and Maria shippers, and not content (can't wait for it though so bring it on), and they're more than entitled to have fun with their ship. I say the same thing for the Kyle and Alex shippers out there. Nothing delighted me more than seeing Kylex shippers too, so wholesome and sweet and I lowkey started shipping it myself thanks to them. 😘

But the people who are treating Maria and her love life or Kyle and his love life like an afterthought by shoving them together as an afterthought for the sole reason of them not interfering with their Malex and Echo ... those people are the only people who some fans are side eyeing. That's it. You can usually find them literally stating how cute the pairing would be in part because it wouldn't affect Malex. They're usually the same ones passive aggressively saying "this friendship is cute" under anything that remotely has to do with Michael and Maria. So, yeah, in that sense it's transparent, and those people and only those people are who some fans are annoyed by.

Those same fans who think it's fucked up to entertain the idea of Maria sleeping with her best friend's soulmate if it's Michael are pairing the spares with Maria and Kyle even though Kyle is Liz's ex. If we really hated the ship itself, we'd bring that up a thousand times more because Maria knows about Kyle and Liz's history. She doesn't know about Michael and Alex's, right? But it isn't about that at all.

This fandom at least on here isn't the most open to those who aren't talking about the majority's issues, so any Maria and Michael fans on here mostly stay out of fandom or go elsewhere. They don't even have the space to discuss anything here. So what is this imaginary war if you will between two subsections of fandom with more similarities than differences who you need a telescope to find anyway?!

Especially when the issue brought up is explained. It's not the ship that anyone has an issue with, it's the motivation of some people for shipping it that people are annoyed by.

It's true. I don't even think anyone realizes that literally anyone who says anything that can remotely be perceived as anti Malex has to insist multiple times that they are in fact a Malex shipper or express how much they like the ship before they can state their opinion. Even then, one still runs the risk of being called homophobic or other things. Seriously, pay attention to how often people do that, like they're trying to prove something, or apologizing, or trying to make sure they don't get attacked, and then think about how messed up that is. Because that is mesed up.

All anyone wants is to be able to discuss all parts of this series. They want to discuss all the characters. They want to be free to discuss any and all ships, hell even crack ships without putting disclaimers up to make sure they aren't attacked or having what brings them joy shat on by the majority telling them they are wrong or not respecting them. Or reminding people that it's a reboot all the time, like no one knows that.

And Maria fans just want to talk about Maria. Maria's life. Maria's storylines. Maria's friendships. And yes, even Maria's love life whether it's Michael or Isobel or Kyle or someone else. They don't want an entire tag dedicated to a fantastic character to ONLY be filled with people speaking of her as a contrivance. That's it. That's the only complaint here, and it is annoying that it keeps getting turned into other things that it isn't about.

It's true that there has yet to be a single person who said a hateful word about Maria and she's well liked. But that doesn't mean that the way in which she is discussed isn't hurtful, and inconsiderate, and annoying, and problematic.

Simply put, people want to be free to discuss more than just one particular ship or topic or a couple of characters without those discussions or tags or photo sets or meta getting derailed or taken over etc. And the only reason the Kyle and Maria thing is brought up is because of how it ties in with everything else going on with fandom and Maria and even fandom and Kyle. The ship itself isn't the problem. It's actually cute af in theory and could be in practice when they give them screentime together to see if the chemistry is there. They're my favorites and I lowkey ship them with everyone myself, but whatever.

OK, I’m not trying to be wanky, but I find it kind of hilarious how offended I’ve seen some people get over the fact that there are those who ship Maria with Kyle. They are mad because the two of them have not yet shared scenes so apparently it’s a bad and offensive thing to ship them.

So, while I’m not a Maria and Kyle shipper per se (though I’ve considered the possibility of a future relationship between them), I’m gonna lay a few things out.

1) First off, let us acknowledge that both the books and OG has everyone conveniently paired off. In this version, we have the two major pairings of Max/Liz and Michael/Alex. Isobel/Noah are married but still presented as a lesser couple compared to the epic drama of echo and malex. Yet even they are shown to be deeply in love with one another, and Noah is not giving up on Isobel during her current crisis.

2) Kyle and Maria are both single as a pringle. Even with Kyle’s fooling around with Liz, they’re not in love or even in like. They are friends who have fooled around.

3) While the only scene they’ve shared is the brief pilot flashback scene with Max looking through the window, it can be established that Kyle and Maria know one another and have since high school. (And if it wasn’t for Heather having prior filming obligations, she would have been in HS scenes with Liz and Kyle, it’s very likely.)

4) Kyle and Maria have some similarities. They’re both trustworthy. They’re both smart. They’re both loyal friends. They’re both funny and kind of sassy. Neither are afraid to tell it like it is.

5) Yet their differences make for some fun potential and an interesting balance. Kyle- man of science. Maria- woman of faith. He’s a doctor. She’s a bar owner and psychic. He was a quarterback douche in HS, she was a hippie protester. There could be a fun dynamic.

6) People can ship whatever. And nothing against crackships, but it’s not even as though Kyle and Maria are one though some like to act that way. The two have some sort of established relationship even if we haven’t seen it on screen yet. And even if it’s in the past. You can’t use the argument of them not having scenes (even if they really haven’t run into each other in town in the last 10 years which is highly unlikely). Because Max and Liz didn’t see each other for 10 years either. And no one doubts that they have an established relationship of some sort.

7) Those those same people that I’ve seen complaining about shipping Maria with Kyle seem to think that shipping Maria with Michael is much better. Since they’ve shared two whole scenes together. And Michael is in love with Maria’s best friend (and him with Michael) and this has been the case for the past ten years. Like you can’t make this up. 🤣 But hey. That’s also perfectly fine. I mean why not? Just don’t act like you’re somehow above Maria and Kyle shippers or that your reasons for shipping M&M are more valid.