#engaging in casual americentrism

[leastparanoidandroid]

say what you will about america but at least our tax dollars are going towards the very respectable military industrial complex rather than some guy’s hat wearing party

[tonyglowheart]

Some thoughts on character naming conventions & cultural significance of name-shortening

I’m noticing a growing trend of people referring to characters from The Untamed by given name only (my theory is this is because of Netflix. Is it because of Netflix?), and while I’m starting to get more used to it and am also actively interrogating my own emotional reactions to it, I do want to provide some of my thoughts on cultural notes regarding naming conventions.

Point the first: Although in English-speaking culture(?)/American culture, naming characters by given-name-only may be the most neutral form of addressing a character, in Chinese, naming a character by full name (e.g. “Wei Wuxian,” “Lan Wangji”) would actually be the most neutral form of addressing a character/someone.

While you can call characters/people by given name only, this usually indicates usually a high level of personal familiarity (like Lan Xichen calling Lan Wangji by “Wangji” for example), or maybe a high level of disrespect/disregard (like in MDZS/CQL when characters refer to Wei Wuxian by his birth name “Wei Ying” as a sign of disrespect [e.g. we see Jin Ling do this, btw]).

Point the second: Additionally, and importantly, if a character’s given name is only one character, it would NOT tend to be called alone. I know Netflix has a habit of subbing people’s names as given-name-only, so then you get names like “Cheng” and “Ning” and “Qing”; however, in CN a single character name would not tend to be shortened alone. I’m not saying no one ever does this, but that more commonly, as a nickname/familiar form of address, something would be added to amend the single character. E.g. a “Xiao” (Little) or a “Lao” (Old, tho in this case not necessarily meaning the person is literally “old”), or “A-” as we see in canon (though I think Netflix also omits this :/), or “-er”, or doubling, etc.

One form we see in canon is “A-[x],” so e.g.: A-Yuan, and A-Ning (which Wen Qing calls Wen Ning), and A-Xian (which Jiang Yanli calls Wei Wuxian). (I think we may also see JYL call WWX “Xianxian”? so an example of doubling, too, though I’d say this version is more used “for kids” or more “cutesy” version)

In terms of name-shortening, “full-name neutral” is possibly why the prevalence in acronym shortening (the other may be the prevalence of danmei fandom on twitter [character limits]? and esp predating CQL growing bigger on tumblr? but this is anecdotal on my part, it’s also easier to type acronyms on a phone lol). Because acronyms preserves the whole name, essentially, within the structure. If you’re calling a character by given-name-only just as a way of shortening the name/for convenience, then imo you run into issues of imposing English/American naming conventions on Chinese characters, and that’s where I personally run into feeling like there’s possibly a respect issue at play towards the source culture, :’)

TL;DR : I would say “when in doubt, default to canon naming conventions,” except I think since Netflix does drop surnames in subs even though the characters are saying them, and puts in given-name-only when familial/honorific forms of address are used (like “Yanli” instead of Shijie), that might have set a certain Anglocentric/ Americentric precedent in people’s minds on the naming...

 In which case, I recommend “when in doubt, default to full names.” 

Now, I’m not saying you HAVE to refer to characters by full name only or else you’re a Bad Terrible Person, or that you are doing things The Wrong Way if you find given-name-only easier for you, nor am I saying you HAVE to use acronyms to shorten character names, (since yeah, that is an EN adaptation to pinyin also anyway), (and like, I can’t control what other people do lmao)

But I did want to provide some cultural notes for people who maybe don’t know or haven’t considered that there even would be cultural issues at play with naming conventions, and would (hopefully) like to learn more about & immerse more in the source culture instead of just going with their comfort zone, which...at worst ends up coming across as Americans/Anglophones imposing their culture on others without really taking the time and effort to respect the source culture

Edit: lol uh *suddenly remembers this thing* o yeah here’s a terminology reference someone wrote up that gives a lot of information on naming and relationship terms & forms of address

Edit 2: follow-up ask regarding use of acronyms

Another Not-quite Ask Response to an anon I got which I was going to go back to and answer “formally,” regarding name use and third person “internal” narration. (tl;dr, Chinese has all these third person self-referential pronouns/pronoun structures that I think ppl are much more likely to think or refer to themselves as, if they’re not just outright referring to themselves as “I” in terms of internal narration. imo third person narration, someone is much more likely to refer to themselves as 本人(”benren,” meaning vaguely “this person”) as a more general term, or any variation of these kinds of self-referential third-person forms of address, vs by name.) Which is to say.. I think it's a moot point as far as how it would translate, so it's not like "but how would a char refer to themselves?" rly helps. Most if not all Chinese media I've seen uses full name for narration, bc as I said, that's the most neutral form of address. If you wanted to "compromise" for English then ofc I can't stop you. But naming habits very quickly is becoming a "no brown m&ms" issue, of "does it seem likely you're trying to write respectfully, or just treat it like a China: Through the Looking Glass situation."

(under the cut if you want some more expansive thoughts/discussions)

[cut]

So. This is where I go a bit more stream-of-consciousness/a lot messy maybe, and also share some more personal feelings on this. uhh strap in if you plan to read through this I guess :’D

My reason for bringing this whole thing up is, in honestly, fueled by a quite visceral initial discomfort with seeing given-name-only forms of address in tumblr posts that keep cropping up, and especially single-character-only being bandied about all over the place. Honestly, seeing “””Ning””” and “””Cheng”””  and “”””Qing””””” etc give me similar *Kill Bill Sirens* feelings that the “””””Childe””””” translation for gong’zi that Tencent does gives me lol.

I’ve been in the process of interrogating also my own reactions of discomfort, and while some of it IS down to familiarity in form - in that I just wasn’t familiar with seeing given-name-only’s, and that I do kind of feel like I can accept it a bit more now that I’ve seen it around and gotten a bit more used to it - but another thing that I think became important to me was my reflections on how this reflects a sort of culture clash, with different cultural norms coming into play, and also how much this kind of hits home personally.

So one hand, you may say that for an English-speaking/Western audience, it’s perfectly valid for them to engage with the source media in English according to their familiar conventions, which is the given-name-only convention. However, as an Asian American, my first impulse on seeing a lot of given-name-only bandied about was that this was a form of address was too casual/presumptive and perhaps unintentionally disrespectful.

Within a sort of meta-Doylist perspective, I think it reads to me as odd because with fictional characters, an audience member wouldn’t necessarily HAVE a personal familiar relationship the way the characters within the media have with one another. You’re essentially a third-person observer on “someone” else’s life if we’re getting really meta-texual lol. It’s different than if you meet someone  in person and they/their friends introduce themselves as “Xiao’Ling” for example because their friends call them that. And a sort of example of where we DO get a familiar form of address as an introduction is with A-Jing, who is just introduced as A-Jing and is just A-Jing. (and ofc there’s an interesting cultural discussion to be had on her lack of family name and how that familiar form of address indicates her relative social status, too, since the idea that she’s family-less and is of relatively lower social status as a “blind” beggar and so more people would feel free to address her by a familiar form of address vs Lan Wangji who is the second son of a major clan and so it would be kind of insulting for people to be casually calling him “Wangji,” even)

Now, the specifics of arguing “how close are you with a character” is a point I’m willing to soften on, since like... this is quibbling something that I can’t really argue on or fully pin down to explain other than “it feels weird” (tho I was venting about some of my Kill Bill Sirens feeling with another Chinese friend and they mentioned “it’s disrespectful, isn’t it?” regarding given-name only and that kind of got me thinking), and getting into arguing “well you’re not as personally close with a fictional character to be allowed to call him by given name” is. not a kind of argument I ever want to be having lmao. and also I can see there being cases where, for example, you’re getting really emotional over a specific character and it doesn’t ping my radar - although for me, I think in these cases, I tend to default to birth names lol. Like when I’m especially emotional over Wei Wuxian, I start sobbing over Wei Ying, and I think I generally tend to call Lan Wangji as “Lan Zhan” anyway lol.

(Actually, no, I just tried calling a bunch of characters by given name only and it’s just weird to me to think about addressing characters by given name only, lol, it DOES feel too presumptive/familiar :’) it hits on uncanny-valley cultural notes to just do so casually D: this is like calling your...e.g your high school teacher by given name (like when a teacher is just Ms. [xx] but after you graduate they’re like you can call me [first name] but you just can’t?), like that just? doesn’t Work Like That? D: I think the only reason “Wangji” works for me is because Lan Xichen calls LWJ that, and it’s a cute moment, and I feel like I’m invoking LXC’s love for his brother when I do that :’) this. does get more into personal preference yeah but I do think it’s also tied into cultural concepts of respectful forms of address, especially across rank/age/level of familiarity)

But also I mean. this whole though process is a work in progress for me, too, in terms of me interrogating my own emotional reactions, and in terms of me trying not to cross over into “policing” how people engage in fandom. And like... being more honest with myself about it, yeah the acronym structure - which, although I am now more used to - is still an English-specific adaptation, and one which CAN be open to discussion/alternatives. And again, I’m not saying that you HAVE to use acronyms either, as that IS an English adaptation to pinyin anyway. But that I think there is good reason for it, and it’s not just something someone made up to personally target people or whatever.

But the other part where respect is brought up for me is a matter of respect for Chinese culture. Now, I do understand not everyone may be wanting to immerse within the source culture in that way. And I, with gritted teeth :’) say... FINE. because I can’t control what other people do ofc. But again for me, this hits home quite personally, because I DID grow up experiencing a lot of microaggressions with Asianness being dismissed as “weird” or “too foreign” or “too difficult to understand.” It’s the reason why Chinese immigrants and Chinese Americans have to have “English names” that we go by, because sometimes even the pinyin of our names are “too difficult” for people to want to try to pronounce.

And listen, I’m maybe more defensive of some of these cultural notes than a Chinese person in China would be, who may be charmed or amused by what to THEM would be “funny foreign habits”; but I’ve also been threatened more for my Asianness than a Chinese person in China would have, and I have also had to work harder to reclaim my heritage from a prevailing culture which is now more centered within my identity but which simultaneously works hard to erase my heritage from me, and at the same time also alienates me from truly “belonging” without me fighting for it. So... yeah when I did see people casually say “well this is what I think works for me,” I...on one hand want to be like “okay I understand and respect that,” as I recognize to be good fandom etiquette! but on the other hand it reminds me too much of Americans going, like, “this is too difficult, do you have an English name?”

where it feels more like a matter of people aren’t putting in the effort to learn a name that is foreign to them, aren’t putting in the RESPECT to learn a different culture and thinking it’s fine to just impose their own (like this does, for me, trip into the “mmmm cultural imperialism, hm? not cute” kind of territory :’) )

And I am aware that many people may NOT realize that there ARE cultural issues at play with the naming, and that some people (lmao like me) might be sensitive to some of this.

But like. I felt strongly about it lol, and at the very least, I wanted to try to provide some food for thought that people hopefully would take :’)

And ig sort of lastly, I am ofc open to discussion on this topic! I am, after all, a single Chinese American with my single Chinese American perspective on this specific cultural topic! But I do ask of you, if you find yourself reacting to this emotionally in some way, please try to sit with the emotions yourself for a bit? I mean I know I’ve been guilty of reacting emotionally, and reacting by speaking first before pausing a moment to process the emotions. But like I’m putting it out there already that this IS also an emotionally charged topic for me, and overlaps into emotionally-charged issues relating to cultural imperialism and my own experiences as Chinese American. So I ask that if you do have a specific emotional reaction, to please pause and let it distill a little before unleashing it on me :’) This is one of those *John Mulaney voice* things I’m sensitive about :’)

And also if you do use “given name only” this is not a personal attack on you, I am not saying you’re a horrible American cultural imperialist for doing so, nor am I saying you’re being maliciously thoughtless and disrespectful. (I’m also learning more and more that there are certain cultural things I’d taken for granted/had assumed has become more common concepts in English, such as “face,” which actually are still utterly foreign to some people.)

I am just personally tired but also opinionated to a fault and want to share my thoughts on where I’m coming from, culture-wise with this.

[tonyglowheart]

.

I wish there were more fandom meta (meta and not salt vents, which is often what my posts get tinged with by the time I post here 8') rip) about the intersection of fandom competing needs and cultural/racial sensitivity or like intersectionality-fueled competing needs here on tumblr. Bc there's a LOT of discussion I'll see on twt, and some of it is borne of discourse sure, but then some good discourse comes out of it on how to treat interfandom issues more intersectionally, and how to be/to try to be more consideration of a source culture especially when you're not a part of either the source culture or the source target audience.

I do still think there's a good chunk of EN audience that is quite Western-centric/Western-gaze/Americentric in their views, and acts like & treats moral values or aesthetic judgments as universal. Yes, even some ppl who aren't espousing purity wank.

Sometimes it's as simple as the way they call names, or some person making a joke about a trope within the media like the spitting blood, or the names. But here's the thing: it does discomfort me to see this kind of casual behavior sometimes bc I do think, as far as cultural sensitivity goes, it's out of place bc they're not your jokes to make. Like in Mean Girls where it was only okay for Janis to make the too gay to function joke. Or how like I can make Asian parent jokes with my fellow diaspora, but if a white person tries to participate I get very uncomfortable. Or okay, I can and will ask other Asians where they're from or what flavor of Asian they are, often with that kind of joking self aware tone of how yes this is how the wypipo Other us, and it's fine, but if some other rando (usually white) off the street asks me where I'm *from*, I'm now born in the good ol USA and I play dumb until they drop it lmfao.

I just... wish there's more convos on intersectional issues and cultural sensitivity and cultural competence and how intl audiences can be polite guests in media-not-their-own here, bc... part of the reason I'm not as much on here now except sometimes when I have a salt-vent too long for twt, is that I feel stiffled and silenced here. I feel like I have to shut up to be considerate to white feelings, because they're prioritizing "traditional fandom etiquette" but to the exclusion of considering issues and competing needs intersectionally. I feel like sometimes I *can't* have certain conversations or feelings without it being offputting to people who are "just here to have fun bc it's fandom" so it becomes "you're policing people/ you're gatekeeping", instead of "hey maybe can we pause and consider an alternate perspective to competing needs, and like maybe some intersectionality." And I think that's part of what's been triggering for me here, the like marginalized identity feeling of "you better shut up or we'll shut you out" triggering that like helpless rage I feel when it comes to the fractures in trying to reconcile my diaspora/"immigrant" identity.

Some of this is like, my own brewing cognitive dissonance on tumblr side-fandom of this burgeoning cmedia fandom sector here, but some of these thoughts came out of the recent growing discussions surrounding fandom and race(racism) too, as well as posts I've seen that had me thinking abt things from different perspectives.

But anyway, I mean it's not all fandom-driven. Tumb itself has made changes that make it harder for me to navigate too and more work to navigate. So I'm not "blaming" tumblr fandom or anything. But just... I get this feeling of having to manage (white) feelings here that I don't tend to get on tumblr, and I feel like from what I've seen of tumblr fandom has been very homogeneous, but towards a "traditional Tumblr-based English-language fandom way," vs Twitter where I feel like I've been able to find a more diverse-feeling base.

And like this is by no means definitive or exhaustive, and I may in fact have missed segments of fandom where there ARE more danmei fans, and I do know several ppl who're tumblr ppl who ARE very publicly making efforts to get to learn the culture more and who are publicly demonstrating how they're trying to be respectful vs just being there to "have fun" and not apparently to really stretch themselves about it. Like I'm very aware this could just be a "me" thing and what part of the tumblr fandom I'm seeing & am generally in.

And I'm also aware that a more "productive" way of handling this would be to turn that frustration into action and work to educate ppl more and engage with ppl to encourage positive explorations into language and culture.

But like... the world is like actively depressing me and has been for months, and I run on like 3.5 energies on a good day and much of that goes to getting thru the work day, and the rest is usually for me to channel out so I can decompress as much as I can to try to get ready for the next day, and like.. I DO have a lot of anger and resentment in me from feeling marginalized and silenced thru my life, as an Asian American, as well as relentlessly pushed to assimilate even though I had to also reconcile that I will likely always be Othered because there'll always be some new random white person who meets me and the first thing they ask is if I speak English. And like on a good day, I maybe don't always have the energy to perform emotional labor to placate white feelings in addition to the emptional labor of educating them. Let alone now when the world has been having consecutive crises for literal years now at this point and all of this has had additional adverse effects on my mental health.

And like at least on twitter, even though the wank cycles are so short and the wank there feels so explosive, at least there ARE people having discussions on, if not necessarily intersectionality per se, then discussions on decolonizing as far as EN fandom towards Asians/Chinese ppl in cmedia fandoms go. Like at least there, I don't feel like I'm drowned in a sea of Anglocentric fandom priorities, and like a good segment of ppl push back against colonizing tendencies from Anglocentric fandom, & I can find my ppl and feel seen and heard without feeling like people are seeing me more as a nuisance intruding on THEIR fun, as if I'M the interloper/outrageous one here.