#either in a similar way to how he forgave Wilbur

[the-hoely-bleach]

I don’t normally post about lore cause no thoughts but fuck it, I’m seeing way too many bad faith takes here. Please assume that I am talking about the rp characters unless otherwise specified.

Do I think certain things could have been worded slightly better? Yes. Do I think that Dream suddenly showing a hint of remorse was weird and that it only happened for sake of drama? Yes. Do I think. That Punz could’ve been removed from that last scene and it would’ve changed nothing?? Yes, though it was funny to imagine him just standing there on his phone while discduo had there heart to heart. However,

I do not think it was cc!Tommy’s intention to have his character sympathize with his abuser. Mainly because that fully does not make sense for Tommy as a person /or/ as a character.

In that last scene, we see Tommy, who knows he only has a few minutes left to live, desperately trying to make sense of what has happened to him. Why, why would someone do what Dream to him? He has to hash this out now because he knows he’ll never get the chance again. He decides, “fuck it. I’ve got nothing left lose so why don’t I just ask”.

And then he gets his answer. And he finally understands. Tommy and Tubbo have spent this entire four part finale reminiscing about the good old days. Back when things were simple. Before the wars and the politics and the baggage, before everyone hated each other. And in limbo he sees that deep down, Dream wants the same thing, he’s just gone about it in completely the wrong way.

The beauty in Tommy’s character, to me, is that he is so loud and annoying and rude and when he’s bored he will pick fights just to see what’ll happen. But beneath all that, there’s a quiet kindness that people like Dream have never gotten to see. And in his final moments he extends that kindness to Dream, not because all is forgiven, but because we’re both about to die so we may as well make our peace. “Fuck you for what you did to me, and I’m sorry that I have to kill you.”

(Just want to say before this next paragraph that I am in no way saying that Dream’s actions, especially exile and beyond, are excusable, nor do I think Tommy deserved what he went through, nor do I think he(Dream) deserved any kind of redemption/reconciliation arc. Redemption=death was the only option for him if they wanted to go that route.)

And in the new world? With wiped memories and a clean slate? They’re friendly with each other because they have no reason not to be. They don’t know each other. Because the whole point of this ending is that their dynamic started mostly through circumstance. Dream may have been a control freak from the beginning, but he was not an evil abusive master manipulator. He thought Tommy was a little shit(and let’s be honest with ourselves, he was kind of a menace in the early days), and then they were on opposite sides of a war. First it was just politics, and then Tommy was easy scapegoat to push his own agenda, then it snowballed from there. Dream was not sick and twisted from the start, he became that monster over time through a series of bad decisions and poorly managed obsessions.

The point of the ending was to explore a what-if  scenario. “What if Tommy and Dream met for the first time, without all the emotional and political and personal baggage? Will they still end up hating each other in the end, or will they find common ground? Will they end up just not having anything to do with each other? Who knows, we’ll have to wait and see!”

It’s a clean slate. And things are simple.

[stellocchia]

(Anon from before about the comic) True true. Though to be fair, Wilbur has also taken a liking to Ranboo and kinda put him as his right hand man. So who knows

Yeah but that's different. Wilbur never had an exclusive kind of focus on Tommy. He isn't replacing Tommy with Ranboo right now either. Like, they did do something together and they have sort of bonded, but that doesn't mean that Wilbur entirely likes Ranboo or that now Ranboo is the new Tommy.

Like, they can go that route of course even if it hasn't happened yet, but boy, would it be boring. Not for Wilbur, could be interesting for him! But like... man will Ranboo ever get a chance to grow as a character if every chance of giving him any sort of antagonist is turned into "and everyone became his Super Close Friend"?

Like, Niki forgave him quick even if she was initially mad at him as well after the community house scene. Ranboo was the one to completely drop Fundy and never actually tried or cared to reconcile. Tubbo and he have no tensions between them even though Ranboo was technically a traitor and he's keeping a shitload of secrets from his husband. Dream may or may not have controlled him, but probably not actually, and anyway it's not relevant because the enderwalk state is not actually dangerous. Tommy was initially jealous and hostile but got over it real quick. Phil and Techno never held him participating in the butcher army against him for some reason even though he was there of his own free will. And now Wilbur just kinda likes him because Ranboo brought up that he's "alright" and that his 13 years in Limbo probably changed him for the better? I guess?

Like, does anyone else here notice a pattern of just every possible tension in the story for him completely resolving itself without Ranboo ever needing to actually do something and with no consequences to the narrative? Because I do!

Either way, Ranboo rant aside because I've been doing a lot of those recently... what I was trying to say at the start is that Tommy is still covering his own role in his and Wilbur's relationship. Wilbur was still excited to show Tommy what he had done and his demeanor towards Ranboo seemed to shift after Ranboo brought up how what Tommy has been through has "made him good", which would possibly indicate that he still holds a grudge against Ranboo for getting away with helping to grief George's house consequence-free unlike Tommy (not something I noticed myself, but some other people pointed it out and it was a pretty cool observation).

Ranboo may have filled a similar role to what season 1 Tommy's role was in relation to Wilbur but that's no longer Tommy's role as their relationship has changed a lot since then. Tommy isn't blindly following Wilbur's lead anymore, he calls him out on stuff and directly shoots down some ideas that Wilbur brings up (like visiting Dream in prison). And, at the end of the day, Wilbur doesn't need Tommy as his blindly loyal right-hand man anymore either and doesn't even seem to view him that way anymore.

[boneles-ss]

Okay I’ve seen posts about how Tommy was in the right, and posts about how tommy was in the wrong but also can be selfless and a good protagonist. Now I have some thoughts about Tubbo. (God why I have homework) (please before you read this, imagine for a moment that the author forgot about the fact that Tubbo’s entire thing is pacifism, and started over. Got that? Good thank you lol)(also id cut this down but I’m on mobile:,( very sorry)

Tommy and Tubbo are very similar in a lot of ways. Most notably, in their caring for everything they accomplish and grow fond of.

The thing about tommy that is widely accepted is that he cares so much deeper than anyone else does. He cares to the point that he brings himself and those around him to ruin for the sake of venagance or personal attatchments. But he chooses what he cares about without outside opinion or regret�� to the dismay of those who aren’t high on his list of priorities (or on the receiving end of his fury), and he will defend that to the end of days.

But on the other hand, Tubbo becomes passionate and driven when he is GIVEN something. Whenever Tubbo has really stuck through a task or a job, it’s always been something that he was told to do— spying for pogtopia for Wilbur, messing stuff up with Tommy, even becoming president wasnt his decision, AT ALL. HE WAS ELECTED BY ONE PERSON SAYING HE SHOULD DO IT, and Tubbo has never said no. Not once. For all we talk about Tubbo not being a yes-man, he really was one. Right up until he became president, got assasinated, and had to stand over a ruined crater with a cabinet of traumatized idiots and the threat of a violent anarchist looming over their heads, that’s when he realized he had a right to be heard— and that he could make people listen to him now.

Tubbo has always had ideas. Good ones, too. But he could never say them as well as he does now because nobody took him seriously enough in a group. It wasn’t like he was talked over like Niki or Technoblade, he just never spoke, and when he did, he wasn’t taken seriously! Tubbo was a listener and an observer, letting tommy dominate conversations, and he’s always been a staunch pacifist, (forgiving techno for murdering him, TWICE), which is something that made him appear weak, and thus something that could be dismissed and brushed aside (they went out of their way to ask for Tubbo’s opinion, and then they still fought in the pit, because Tubbo was the outlier).

So when Tubbo started detailing his plans for the rebuilding of L’Manburg with Fundy and Quackity and Phil, I was almost shocked! I’d never heard him sound so confident in what he was saying outside of when he streamed alone, and could only talk to chat! It’s not like he lacks confidence, either, we know he has it. He straight up lied to Schlatt for weeks, barely breaking a sweat, too. Until he got executed lol but that’s not the point. He was given the power of president and he immediately felt he has a right to use it, because he’s NEVER HAD THIS BEFORE. He’s NEVER been able to talk over Tommy, to tell him to shut up and feel like he has some kind of high ground over him because of his status. He always could have, no doubt. But he didn’t, because Tommy was louder, and there’s no point in trying to out-loud a loud person unless you have a presence that makes them want to be quiet. And being president makes for a pretty strong presence, (regardless of Tommy’s stubbornness). He wasn’t going to be brushed off anymore. They would listen to him talk of peace, and this time, he wasn’t going to back off first.

He forgave techno and repeated stated he will not make the first move towards war because hE JUST WANTS NICE BUILDINGS ON A NICE SERVER GODDAMNIT but that one stream with quackity and fundy refusing to take no for an answer when it came to fighting techno, Tubbo was just as firm. He said no and it’s going to stay that way! Because he’s the president! It’s how he dealt with those two, but Tommy is different, because Tommy has known Tubbo longer, and Tubbo has always been his right hand man. Never the other way around! He’s out of Tommy’s shadow, and the balances have been shifted.

Because here’s the thing. Tubbo seems to be, on some level, doing this to get back at tommy. Probably not even conciously! His stubbornness, his refusal to take Tommy’s side, yes that’s for the sake of peaceful resolution, but it’s not doing any good for anyone but Dream! They could try to come up with another way. They really could. But Tubbo would rather appease his enemies than his allies, because he trusts that they won’t rig his nation with tnt in return. He is protecting them and yet exerting his power over them at the same time.

I think the thing that hit hardest for me today’s stream (I wasn’t there but the highlights were gold, Dream swearing was poggers) was when Tubbo said “yeah, if the roles were reversed, we wouldn’t be in this situation, because i would have LISTENED.” And we all know he would have. Without hesitation. Because Tubbo was a yes-man. And tommy is right. Tubbo is drunk on power, yes. Because he’s never even been tipsy with it before this point. He’s never had anything real, the closest he got to this kind of authority was planning a festival that became his execution.

“This isn’t the first time I’ve had nothing.” Tubbo has a goal. He wants peace. He’s not going to take the first shot. He doesn’t care about the disks. He cares about his friends. And he’s so fucking tired of fighting. And he’s going to squeeze every amount of power he has out of this role he was given to make sure it happens. He might be feeling like proving something to Alive!Wilbur, who called him out for his complacency. He might be proving something to Schlatt, that he can make this place better than he found it. Or maybe... it’s only ever been to Tommy. Tommy was the loud one, and Tubbo let him be loud without a single word, year after year. Now Tubbo has the chance to be heard, and, unfortunately, it might be making him overlook his friendship in favor of proving something and establishing peace.

Wilbur fell because of envy. Schlatt fell from pride. But Tommy and Tubbo? They are selfish, and it’s what made them such close friends, and might be what might keep their relationship in a deadlock until somebody cracks. Previously that person was almost always Tubbo and he’s determined to win now thanks to his newfound authority and blinded by his goals. Tubbo is acting for as selfish of reasons as Tommy has been.

Nobody is in the right on the Dream smp, and that’s never going to change.

Side note: I absolutely love these guys to death. They are incredible actors and they take the story in such interesting directions, and I am a huge goddamn writing nerd for morally gray plots. Even if it’s not for good reasons and Tubbo is just as guilty, I was So Happy when Tubbo popped off at tommy for being an idiot, and for not letting fundy and quackity shift blame away from themselves either. It was really refreshing and also vindicating from the POV someone who also is definitly also a yes-man and who has never gotten angry at someone who might be in the wrong like this before out of fear that what I just wrote an essay about would be true of me, but imo tubbo completely deserved SOME reality-check yelling at Tommy and he has for a very long time. Tommy also deserves to be selfish with his disks tho too I understand that as well— ughhhhhh but the two of them can’t be selfish at the same time unfortautely!!!! I’m happy for both of them from a personal standpoint, but from a viewer’s standpoint, uh ohhhhhhhh, I’m mmmmMMMMMMMMMMM and very scared lol :)

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