#edgebeings

[bismuth-209]

previously on this conversation on wild blue yonder (doctor who) featuring @rowanthestrange, @timetravelingsherlockian and me, we discussed things like "did the creatures turn into the ship?" "why was the tardis there?" "to what extent would the captain's plan have worked?" and mainly exploring the Captain's appearance as similar to the mari lwyd, but this post is trying to move the more creature focused discussion separate

SO.

The Doctor has ended up places where they don't save anyone/instead make everything worse (e.g. the First Doctor expanding the scope of the Daleks,"Waters of Mars", I'm pretty sure Five ended up in a few serials where his job was to witness everyone dying around him). I could see TARDIS logic of "I want those two to spend more time together, so I'll drop you off in a spot where there's double the Doctor and Donna!" Or even "we need you to start emotionally processing what happened with the Flux sometime this century." So it's possible all they were there to do was to hang out with their bestie and witness these beings' destruction. That being said, I'm not sure I'd conceptualize "nothing" as anywhere near "dead". A tree could fall in a forest, and it'd cease being a living tree—but one still would need to step over its trunk, ants would nibble and skitter under its bark, fungi spores would sneak between its growth rings, foxes would huddle under the exposed root ball. The tree would no longer be able to impose its will of "grow as tall as possible for as long as possible and photosynthesize"—yet a new forest would emerge from it. (Forestry experts tell you not to remove downed trees from the forest for this reason.) The fungi spores were there when the tree was alive, but living trees release antifungals to keep them from growing, imposing the tree's will of "protect the living bark and wood" on other creatures. The tree's death releases this will, and the fungi can now prosper from the wood. The problem of the mirror-beings wasn't that they were copies or existed—Doctor Who has loudly and proudly been shouting "clone rights!" for at least 15 years—it was that they couldn't see beyond a mission of destruction of all things. The universe didn't need the edge-beings to stop existing as much as it needed to break the sway of their will—i.e. death.

you are RIGHT saying that death isn't the end. like the being said in the episode: "things keep existing when they're gone". it was a realisation, but i think they might've been like "when i'm gone i keep existing too, so of course the tie itself would too"

the edgebeings want destruction. does that mean eviscerating the trees of the universe? or does it mean cutting them down to let a different form of life take root? to let something else grow?

and @timetravelingsherlockian also said this in the replies of that other post:

I am deathly (pun intended) curious if/how/whether the entities dying relates to the salt (given the ghosts/vampires/undead connotations of the superstition). Your proposition that they could be mirroring the ship itself is still making me crawl through the walls.

which is a GOOD point. the entities got scary teeth after being called vampires etc. would that have altered their mortality as well?

my initial theory that they were a bit of Becoming from the birth of the universe that hadn't Become yet also feels worth mentioning somewhere on this new post.

they also worked with expectations initially. Donna expected to see the doctor walk back into the room, not that soon, but she did, and she expected him to talk.

the doctor expected Donna, and expected her to listen (the most basic function of a companion is to be explained things, even if the doctor knows each is so much more than that, that's the basics), and the edgebeing that was donna said very little.

also something i think is important, wild blue yonder, the song, is a war song, or a jolly exploration song. the doctor sees the universe as something to jolly-ily explore, the edgebeings saw it as war

[lyeekha]

HIDING BEHIND MY WINDOW

the absolute hell are you talking about. ive never opened M*crosoft E*ge in my life

[chorusfm]

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[bismuth-209]

the ship didn't know it was getting blown up. the robot was the only thing close to a mind on board and it wasn't close.

so they didn't know about the bomb

ALSO. i had the thought that the doctor/timeless child and the tardis are the same before

ALSO someone made a post that the tardis left them like "sorry babes if they copy me it's OVER"

that person thinks they can copy ships. probably especially if the ships are really fast and really clever and intelligent

I hope we meet the Bipedal Skeleton Horse species, and they are indeed skeletons.

[iamprotech]

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[pratheekshiva-blog]

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[bismuth-209]

what if the edgebeings didn't get the knowledge of the doctor not being from gallifrey from his brain

what if they already knew.

because the timeless child is from the same place they are

[bismuth-209]

oh the themes... knowing the other, becoming the other. the doctor-donna became eachother. the edgebeings became both of them, but at the start it seems they only based their copying of off the perception of the other person. the fake Donna was based on the Doctor, the fake Doctor based on Donna

and like. becoming the other is bad (we see this with clara too, we see this more). but you must know the other to survive

but truly knowing the other might also kill you.

and the thing about the human ability to hold two completely oppositie things in your mind and believe them both. that's related too. i think

thank you op you've got my gears a-turning. i don't know where they'll end up

What got me about this episode was the desperate need and the utter impossibility of being known. They spend the whole episode trying to suss the imposter out from their real friend, and it's there in literal life and death terms at the end, where whether Donna survives or not depends on the Doctor's ability to know who she is. To know her. Though less physical, the Doctor, in turn, needs her to know what it is he has gone thru, what it is he has done, equally desperately. And yet where it matters the most, they both fail. It's not the Doctor who can tell Donna apart from the clone; Donna cannot remember all she has seen in his mind. Neither do they blame the other for this -- because it IS an impossible ask -- to demand to be known like that.

And yet.

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[bismuth-209]

the Beings really wanted to go to the more populated part of the universe. away from where they were formed

and 14, the most honest incarnation of the doctor says their relationship with gallifrey is complicated

i'm seeing things. the edgebeings are at LEAST narrative foils (extra fucked up edition)

"the light just hasnt reached us yet" & "it would take a hundred trillion years to reach your house" & "a million years" & "every living thing has the same instinct: to come back home" & "ive never been this far out" & "i will be"

[iamprotech]

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[bismuth-209]

OH YES WHAT I KEPT SAYING . the message of doctor who is NOT that war is the most far reaching thing. but wild blue yonder being war to one person and jolly to another. the doctor saw the world and thought it was jolly. the edgebeings saw the world (from very far away) nd thought it was war

i also have auditory processing Difficulties and i need to process my emotions fully before i can even think of rewatching so that'll be a while. unless someone gifs it for us

also i don't think these creatures were 2 creatures until they got exactly 2 people to copy

Also the meta of the species being both these creatures with the war thing going on, and the same species as the Doctor, is definitely in the meta about the song Wild Blue Yonder where they talk about the different interpretations of it. But I have auditory processing issues, turned my TV up high enough the neighbours watched the show whether they wanted to or not, and I still didn’t catch it all properly.

[bismuth-209]

i DID read y'all's tumblrs A LOT when it was airing. i was hyperfixating on the timeless child but too mentally ill to watch it . the only way i'm managing with the last 3 specials is like. i Cannot really pause. and i'm more mentally well

i had theories about the timeless child too. still think it might be a great old one thing. i read on the wiki page of the great intelligence that he's from a group of beings that survived the death of the previous universe

these beings seem like they hadn't been created yet. Potential, plentiful when the universe was born, only left at the edges with Nothing, nothing to spur it into being . does beg the question why they could only become what was quick.

and i think they were wrong. "love letters don't travel very far" that's absolutely not the message of doctor who, that love is less strong than war. there was another reason why they turned out like that

for a second while watching i thought "they gotta think happy thoughts" . the edgebeings were becoming them, so they needed to be good. but they were.. hungry. they were first hungry, and then got gradually more complex, and evil. but they started off deprived. if the Doctor is the same type of being, originally, why wasn't the timeless child hungry? plus, regeneration shoots energy Out. they're a Lot of energy, not lacking at all

but i think they're Linked.

the doctor also mentioned again how he felt time was normal, in his bones. right? but the creatures said time here was slow, nonexistent, but they could feel it. i think. the doctor and these creatures both feel time in a different way than humans

but if the timeless child is an abundance of energy. and these creatures are hungry. maybe they're symbiotic

oh they are the doctor’s species tho aren’t they.

child sent through a wormhole.

a wormhole. that thing they just mentioned in this episode. didn’t have to but rusty did.

child sent throw a wormhole. one of this species finds it. copies it. the child dies. the 99.9999999% copy remains. gets picked up.

can’t change its shape at will anymore not without ridiculous energy, but that’s what time vortex exposure gets you and that creature has copied it so at the moment of death boom there’s energy boom change your shape and repair all the damage.

they’re fae they’re demons they’re angels they’re vampires.

vampires were already linked to time lord history anyway, of course they are, same thing, they were always a mirror, but also literally.

they actually are the doctor’s species.

[bismuth-209]

two things are said about time in the episode:

around 11 minutes in when they first see the robot

Donna asks/suggests time slowed down. the Doctor dismisses this, saying "he'd feel it in his bones"

but the edgebeings, they say

not!doctor: "we drifted here, in the lack of light, passing no-time, but we'd feel it, from so far away. your noisy boiling universe. we want to travel there. to play your vicious games, and win" doctor: [...]what's made you so bad? not!doctor: "the things we felt, they shaped us, carrying across the dark. we could hear your lives of war. blood and fury and war. they made us like this" donna: [...] we are more not!donna "love letters don't travel very far, and neither do your lies"

so. they have gotten a wind of war, and they want to win. but they themselves passed no time, while the doctor felt time was normal here. at least on the spaceship. interestingly they say lack of light, and not dark.

and right before the doctor asked what they wanted. and not!doctor said "you tell us"

what if that was literal. you tell us what our purpose is. he assumes it's war. because it's war so often. and a couple lines later he states their purpose to be war.

the doctor's invoking of superstition at the edge being what makes the toymaker possible sounds very interesting. i guess we'll se next week

previously on this conversation on wild blue yonder (doctor who) featuring @rowanthestrange, @timetravelingsherlockian and me, we discussed things like "did the creatures turn into the ship?" "why was the tardis there?" "to what extent would the captain's plan have worked?" and mainly exploring the Captain's appearance as similar to the mari lwyd, but this post is trying to move the more creature focused discussion separate

SO.

The Doctor has ended up places where they don't save anyone/instead make everything worse (e.g. the First Doctor expanding the scope of the Daleks,"Waters of Mars", I'm pretty sure Five ended up in a few serials where his job was to witness everyone dying around him). I could see TARDIS logic of "I want those two to spend more time together, so I'll drop you off in a spot where there's double the Doctor and Donna!" Or even "we need you to start emotionally processing what happened with the Flux sometime this century." So it's possible all they were there to do was to hang out with their bestie and witness these beings' destruction. That being said, I'm not sure I'd conceptualize "nothing" as anywhere near "dead". A tree could fall in a forest, and it'd cease being a living tree—but one still would need to step over its trunk, ants would nibble and skitter under its bark, fungi spores would sneak between its growth rings, foxes would huddle under the exposed root ball. The tree would no longer be able to impose its will of "grow as tall as possible for as long as possible and photosynthesize"—yet a new forest would emerge from it. (Forestry experts tell you not to remove downed trees from the forest for this reason.) The fungi spores were there when the tree was alive, but living trees release antifungals to keep them from growing, imposing the tree's will of "protect the living bark and wood" on other creatures. The tree's death releases this will, and the fungi can now prosper from the wood. The problem of the mirror-beings wasn't that they were copies or existed—Doctor Who has loudly and proudly been shouting "clone rights!" for at least 15 years—it was that they couldn't see beyond a mission of destruction of all things. The universe didn't need the edge-beings to stop existing as much as it needed to break the sway of their will—i.e. death.

you are RIGHT saying that death isn't the end. like the being said in the episode: "things keep existing when they're gone". it was a realisation, but i think they might've been like "when i'm gone i keep existing too, so of course the tie itself would too"

the edgebeings want destruction. does that mean eviscerating the trees of the universe? or does it mean cutting them down to let a different form of life take root? to let something else grow?

and @timetravelingsherlockian also said this in the replies of that other post:

I am deathly (pun intended) curious if/how/whether the entities dying relates to the salt (given the ghosts/vampires/undead connotations of the superstition). Your proposition that they could be mirroring the ship itself is still making me crawl through the walls.

which is a GOOD point. the entities got scary teeth after being called vampires etc. would that have altered their mortality as well?

my initial theory that they were a bit of Becoming from the birth of the universe that hadn't Become yet also feels worth mentioning somewhere on this new post.

they also worked with expectations initially. Donna expected to see the doctor walk back into the room, not that soon, but she did, and she expected him to talk.

the doctor expected Donna, and expected her to listen (the most basic function of a companion is to be explained things, even if the doctor knows each is so much more than that, that's the basics), and the edgebeing that was donna said very little.

also something i think is important, wild blue yonder, the song, is a war song, or a jolly exploration song. the doctor sees the universe as something to jolly-ily explore, the edgebeings saw it as war