#duffers don't disappoint me challenge

[the-lark-ascending69]

I didnt love S3 but Steve peaked there. Robin became the final puzzle piece he needed to complete his development - thanks to the actors because the duffers clearly didn't know what to do with him. Steve spent the last three seasons chasing after a girl who would never be his soulmate, and when he accepted that, he tried to find someone else to love instead. He tried flirting with any girl whose attention he could hold for over 60 seconds, except for Robin - setting her apart already, though for the wrong reasons initially. She was originally meant to be Nancy's replacement as Steve's arm candy, it seems, but making her a lesbian at the last moment is really what saves S3 for me, not only because she's my baby, my favorite character and I adore her with my whole heart, but also because... the improvised straightbait turned out to work incredibly well at the time to cement the conclusion of Steve's arc - he was a piece of shit and lost Nancy to someone who was better for her (say what you want about Jonathan, but that's clearly the idea the writers had with him, regardless of the effectiveness of the execution). Steve couldn't get Nancy back, and really, he shouldn't be focusing on romance at all because that's just not what he needs to grow as a person. The people who truly challenge him, push him to be better and motivate him to grow are his platonic bonds - Dustin and Robin. He couldn't "fix" everything with Nancy (meaning that he couldn't go back to before everything changed, as if he hadn't messed up). Nancy may appreciate the change but she won't go back to him. Steve doesn't need to change for love - he needs to change for himself, in order to be a better person, period. And Nancy has no reason to stay and watch him grow, she has her own matters to attend to, and she doesn't have enough space in her life for Steve. So Steve finds new people, somewhere else, away from Nancy, and he grows thanks to them.

Robin being not only just his friend but also being completely and eternally unavailable to him works perfectly here. The audience believed, alongside Steve (and the Duffers lmfao) that what Steve needed was romantic love, but Robin proves him wrong. He gets over his ex-girlfriend and finds a sister instead.

And then Season 4 ruins that, for no reason and to no one's benefit. Steve regresses. The growth is undone, for the purpose of keeping Nancy in that eternal love triangle loop that seemed to have been solved two seasons ago. It's sad and disappointing and I'm hoping they don't revisit that in S5.

What I would've done instead would've been to let Steve finish his arc in S3. S4 Steve has a flat arc now. He learned all he had to learn. He's fine. Now, he's here to teach others what he's learned, and I think it would be very interesting if the person who learned from him the most turned out to be Nancy. Steve basically just discovered the power of friendship, and deep emotional connections and trust and how closeness to others makes you stronger. Gives you a purpose. He learned to love and care for others and now that's his strength. Have him tell her about how much he cares about Robin and Dustin. Show him bonding more with Lucas and Max. Contrast him with Nancy, who is isolated, who just lost another friend after leaving him alone, and is desperately trying to protect Max from Vecna. Maybe she's hesitant to become friends with Robin, or to rely on her and Steve to share the burden, or trust the kids to take care of themselves on some capacity. Nancy has become more and more isolated as Steve grows closee to other people.

Then Steve sacrifices himself in S5 to save either Robin or Dustin or both of them idk I think that would be the best conclusion to his arc. Passing on the torch to one of them. Maybe Robin becomes the new babysitter and protector. Maybe Dustin becomes the new hot boy at Hawkins High idk but I think an ending of this sort would fit. He doesn't even need to actually die, if he somehow survives it still works, just having a sacrifice scene (not played for laughs) would be a perfect way to conclude his growth and move on to inspire others to grow like others have done for him.

[lesbianrobin]

the end goal of writing a good show (or story) isn't to please the fans, it is to write a good show that has interpersonal conflicts, personal conflicts andd story conflicts (like Steve and Nancy still having feelings for each other, Wills sexuality, and Eddie and Alexei dying, or even that Will never confesses his feelings, because the story is set in the 70s and 80s after all).

If the writers end up pissing the whole fandom off but make a show that is cohesive, structurally sound, and makes sense for the characters they have created (not the ones fandom have created), well then we all win, honestly.

If they end up listening too much to us fans, and thus end up making the characters do weird things (like if they didn't make the romantic feelings between Nancy and Steve linger - because that makes sense for people and especially those two, and the point of a show isn't always to sent a message about something revolutionary - Steve and Robin used most of season 3 talking about how they struggle with romantic love!), well then we all lose - even if it means Eddie won't come back or that byler isn't end game.

We need to stop acting like a writer's worst fear is or even should be pissing of the fanbase. Bad publicity is still publicity, and honestly why would they care what a bunch of people who've never taken a writing class in their lives think?

i am deeply confused as to why you are saying most of what you are saying to me right now and most of what i Do understand i disagree with and i also find your tone condescending but i'm just gonna ignore all of that to focus on the last two sentences of your ask. because i was gonna just delete this ask and move on but that last bit was so wild to me i just had to respond.

i've been talking about viewer response to stranger things mostly because stranger things is a massively popular show and one of the few remaining shows that gives netflix any sort of creative legitimacy. netflix has had a Lot of bad press recently and they don't have the reputation for quality that they once did. stranger things has been ongoing for a long enough time that netflix's reputation has pretty much completely changed from what it was in s1 (innovative, outside of the box, challenging traditional hollywood and telling stories that couldn't be found on linear television) to now being The Slop Factory that charges way too much money and still wants to make you watch ads. considering how crucial stranger things is to the netflix brand, i think it's very reasonable to assume that the writers don't want to piss people off with the ending.

also, considering how long the show has been ongoing and how passionate the fans have been, i think it's very reasonable for a writer to say, hey, i don't want the people who've been invested in my story for five years now to walk away from it feeling disappointed and unfulfilled. that's a very normal thought to have as a writer and i don't think that taking audience response into account is, like, counterproductive to making a good show. if anything it's kind of the opposite. how can you possibly write a good show if you never stop to think about how your audience will interpret and respond to the thing you're writing?

we also know that the duffers like fanservice! they're responsive to what becomes popular among fans and as such i think it's reasonable to factor "how fans would respond" into your guesstimates about how the duffers are likely to end the show. which is what i have been talking about. not what would make stranger things the most artistically sound, but what i think is most likely to occur.

i don't think that a writer's "worst fear" is or ought to be pissing off fans, but it is also deranged to say "honestly why would they care what a bunch of people who've never taken a writing class in their lives think?" by that logic, i could run around saying "why would they care what a bunch of people who've never gotten a degree in film think?" in order to argue that my opinions about media are somehow fundamentally of greater worth than other people's opinions. but i would obviously not do that because that would be an insane thing to say. in fact i think i said that as a joke on an episode of the long way round podcast once because it's so transparently stupid. i literally said it as a bit because it is such self-evidently bad logic.

anyway television writing is not some highbrow intellectual jerkoff session where you get to act like the fuckin uneducated rabble aren't allowed to have opinions about stories. in fact the entire goddamn point of television is to tell stories to a broad audience. most people on this earth will never take a writing class, but all people on this earth will hear stories, and watch stories, and read stories, and tell stories, and their opinions are not meaningless just because they haven't taken a fucking writing class. of course writers should fucking CARE what their audience thinks regardless of what classes they have or have not taken!! what, are these people good enough for you to take their time and money but not good enough to treat as living, thinking individuals capable of complex thought? jesus fucking christ man. my god

[andiwriteordie]

so today on my lunch break, i was watching this interview with carmen cuba, the casting director of stranger things, who literally has my whole entire heart because this show is casted wonderfully, please give her all the awards

but she started talking about robert englund’s audition process for victor creel and said some interesting things about the duffers and the way they go about auditions:

(at about 9:45) “...The Duffers really figure out a lot about the characters through auditions. ... Then they watch a lot more than a lot of directors and creators do, because they learn about the character through people’s auditions, which is an amazing process for me and really fun.”

and all of this got me thinking. if the duffers are watching the audition process this carefully and even in the audition process letting their actors so deeply shape and inform who these characters are, then how much more are they listening and watching the actors they’ve already hired? 

i mean, the best example is, of course, joe keery. steve was meant to be the stereotypical asshole jock killed off after s1, but joe brought his charisma and lovable nature to the character. and the duffers saw that, adapted to it, and made steve into one of the most beloved characters on the show! 

same with joe quinn, right? we know eddie was meant to be harsher, more of a rival to steve, less likable, etc. but joe brought his own take to eddie and made him incredibly sympathetic, lovable, and all around liked by most people who have watched s4.

i say all of this to say... i think about finn wolfhard, who (at least among the “kids” though they’re not really kids anymore) has the most experience and exposure to other things outside of stranger things. finn knows his shit. he’s incredibly intelligent and understands storytelling and media, and it clearly informs the way he plays his characters, including mike! i mean, for crying out loud, the kid is like what? 20? and already directing his first feature film? finn has a knack for media. 

so you’re going to tell me that finn—who began this show as the primary child protagonist—would just... allow his character to become nothing more than a love interest without any underlying nuance to him? yeah no, that doesn’t seem right to me. 

after playing mike for so many years and also being given two seasons to play in the sandbox and get to dive into the character growth and development of mike, finn doesn’t strike me as the kind of person who would be satisfied if mike was essentially relegated to a dumb teenage love interest for el in seasons 3-5. 

maybe if that’s who mike had always been, i could believe it. but the mike wheeler who spent a whole week searching in the woods for his best friend? who jumped off a cliff to protect one of his best friends? who gave that fucking beautiful and so genuine speech in the shed because he was scared of losing his best friend? 

yeah no, i just don’t feel like finn would be satisfied with mike really having 0 growth or sense of direction to his character... unless he knew that there was more to mike’s change in behavior.

and if the duffers are clearly listening and communicating with their actors to allow them to help shape their characters... then idk. sounds like byler endgame to me 🤷🏻‍♀️

[strangertheories]

Hi! First of all: Love your theories and analysis of ST! :) So, I have something I wanted to see your take on. Ever since volume 2, I've been wondering about the probability of Byler being canon or not, but most of all, I've been thinking about Mike's character and how he has been written in s4 especially. First I need to say that I didn't come from any particular biased (or too heavily invested) point before watching volume 2 'cause I don't ship Byler or Mileven, but as a regular fan of the show I always felt that Will was gay (that point has been clear since s3 for me), and after paying closer attention to Mike's character in volume 1, I felt for sure that he was being written as queer coded/ struggling with his sexuality. There are plenty of analysis about this online (some of which I think are reaching a little bit, while others I definitely agree with), but seeing as the show went with the whole I love you declaration / motivational coach speech from Mike to El (which to me kinda cements that Mileven will probably be the endgame tbh); what are your thoughts on the queer coding of Mike and his weirdness towards Will and just his weirdness in general? I'm so conflicted right now, 'cause to me it just doesn't make sense to build this up and not offer it any pay-off. Could you maybe help rationalize this? 'Cause something feels off with the way he was written when comparing vol1 to vol2. TLDR: Is Mike a closeted gay or is he just a lousy friend? What do you think were the Duffers' intentions with his character...?

First of all, I'm glad you like my posts! (: Second of all, it really depends on the direction they take Byler in during S5. I think a lot more people thought Mike was queer after Volume 1 and that can be seen by the influx of followers in the Byler tag. His inability to say that he loves Eleven despite the fact he was able to say it before combined with the way he was acting about Will led a lot of people to think he's actually interested in Will. It seriously makes so much sense for his character for him to be gay and if it turns out he is, that'll be some amazing writing and foreshadowing and some of the best initially subtle queer rep ever.

But I'm really conflicted on canon Byler. I don't want to be a party pooper, but I also don't want to give false hope and I'm going to say I'm skeptical of it, but I really hope to be proven wrong. Volume 2 felt like the perfect opportunity to start making Byler canon but they didn't go down that route and I feel like there's only so much milkvan that I can wave away as platonic. If it happened now, it would feel a bit rushed and fan service-y to me. I will continue to make Byler theories and try to bring some hope to people because I believe it can happen, but I'm also not going to lie about how I feel. I have the disappointed but not surprised outlook on Byler, as in it's a missed opportunity if they don't do it and a shame for the show, but it's not shocking.

So that leaves us with two possibilities. One and the one I prefer: Mike is gay and repressing his feelings for Will by projecting them onto Eleven like Will pretending Eleven asked for stuff but he is starting to work this out so he pushes Will away with the comments like it's not my fault you don't like girls. Two: after S2 without the will they won't they aspect to Mike and Eleven's relationship, the writers didn't know what to do with them so they created random conflicts and breakups so we could have an emotional moment at the end of each season with them. They wanted Mike's friendship with Will to be challenged by the relationship to show Mike is growing up and moving on but Will can't because of his sexuality and because of the loss of his childhood.

I don't think the second option is inherently bad but they've not written it like that. It makes Mike seem like he doesn't love Eleven and that he's an awful friend to Will and a lot of the Mike hate is a response to this poor writing. The actions are very realistic for a teenage boy so I get they don't have to justify it but if you see Mike in the earlier seasons and just how loyal he is, I'm not sure that's something that goes away with puberty. So either they're working towards the goal of Mike being gay and having a big realization coming out arc in S5 or they tried to write conflict into his relationships and it didn't click with a lot of the audience.

But don't lose hope because of that! It does make a ton of sense for Mike to be gay and he's clearly very queer coded. There's a reason so many people cling on to that aspect of him. So if the writers make Byler requited, it does explain a lot of stuff and a lot of analyses are super convincing so who knows. But it could also be weird relationship writing, I'm not going to lie.

Hopefully this post is ok! I'm not trying to be controversial but this is my account created for sharing my opinions on a show I love so I'm not going to pretend that there is a possibility Byler won't be canon although equally there is a possibility that it will be. Thanks for the ask and the compliment :D