#don't blame gen z we're not all bad | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

salsa-and-light · 11 months ago

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"You could have looked it up and been sure,"

I could have, but most of these sorts of claims are fundamentally unprovable in any meaningful sense.

And besides, titles exist for a reason, the title gave one piece of data disconnected from anything that might explain it. So either there was no data to explain the finding(there wasn't) or it was a bad title, Which is unlikely when we're talking about clicks.

I also gave three to five different factors which probably weren't accounted for(as indeed they weren't) which would have invalidated the implied claims of the title(s).

"survey of 1,300 managers is going to be tough to refute if you don't bother to even try to look it up."

I have no vested interest in changing people's opinions or proving them wrong.

The opinion are what they are, the question is if those opinions are valid indicators of reality.

Opinions are not fact and bias must be accounted for

But accounting for bias isn't fun and blaming the Youths™ is a time honored pastime, which is the New York Post has been publishing some version of this narrative for the past four years

Remember what I said about clicks?

Plus I really didn't care either way, but I do care about research methods so let's look at it.

"In April, ResumeBuilder.com surveyed 1,344 managers and business leaders and found 74% believe GenZ is more difficult to work with than other generations."

Okay, fine, so what does this mean. It tells us that this is a wide spread opinion.

It also does not account for age differences between the generations, nor does it divide managers into categories based on years in leadership positions. Did any of these people have experience working with similarly aged Millennials twenty years ago? Is there any objective point of reference?

Do we have similar surveys from previous decades to accurately compare the generations?

"49% say it’s difficult to work with GenZ all or most of the time"

The same, situation, the same problems.

Of course, both of these results could be an admission that older people don't know how to communicate effectively or work with young people.

But no one ever mentions that as a possibility because it's not as flattering to the ego.

But it's no less baseless than assuming that the young are always to blame.

Even if there is a genuine problem, which is by no means certain, we have no data to suggest only one party is responsible, let alone which one.

"The plurality of these business leaders and managers prefer to work with Millennials"

This is interesting.

"Top reasons they feel GenZ is difficult to work with is they lack of technological skills, effort, and motivation"

This tells us a bit more, the technological skills point could be a reason why Millennials are preferred to their older counterparts. Or it could be a overall preference for peers of the same age.

But who knows, there's no data, at least not here.

The technological curve at least makes sense in theory, there was a massive uptick in tech-literacy for Millennials and now some people are reporting tech illiteracy in younger people

But then again, there's not much technological knowledge that you need to know to work most jobs. What jobs do have specific skills or programs usually train all employees for those regardless of age(or else require licenses or other documentation prior to hiring) and given the pandemic most Gen Z people can pick up new technology relatively quickly with proper training.

Lack of effort or motivation make sense as problem points, but there's still no check on this opinion to make it a valid comparison for other generations.

There's also no documentation as to what that means or whether or not these are real or perceived deficits. And there's no assurance that people don't have ulterior motives

Nor does it account for pay disparity. If you're struggling to buy groceries then it's going to a lot hard to muster a chipper corporate spirit.

But then again, are today's young people really any less motivated than those of past decades?

From this information alone we don't know.

It's not a bad survey, it's just that the results of the survey do not match the conclusions that people are taking away from the survey.

"65% say they more commonly need to fire GenZers than employees of other generations"

This is just an extension of the negative opinion.

It doesn't actually give us much new information.

"12% have fired a GenZer less than one week after their start date"

This also doesn't tell me much, except to maybe suggest that these companies have no problem firing people. That could be because the actions of the employee were just that heinous, or it could be that the company just has nothing to lose from firing people.

Some companies put to little or too much time into interviewing where bad employees slip through or else every mistake is reason enough to fire because the business survives on rapid hiring.

It could also be that young people interview really well but have some other highly objectiable trait.

But those are just possibilities. Who actually knows.

Though I'd guess that it's probably a variety of factors instead of just one particular problem.

But this poll doesn't define its terms very well so there's nothing to draw from.

"Being too easily offended is a top reason GenZers get fired"

Now what does this even mean?

Did they bring up politics in the work place and then get angry, did they not laugh at a risqué joke, did they correct misgendering, did they try to lecture people..

Did they burst out into tears during a meeting?

It could have been any of those things and more, without strict definitions we don't know.

And also, as a matter of common courtesy, if someone is sensitive to something I usually try to avoid it.

I don't usually meet a combat veteran and then shoot of fireworks in their face.

When I'm in the company of a Muslim I usually don't eat pork, when I'm with a Hindu I don't eat beef.

Not because I think that there's anything wrong with fireworks or beef, but just because I don't want to put other people in an uncomfortable position.

Call me crazy but I think that's polite.

Maybe there are some positions which are just inherently too tough to sensitive people and that's fine, I just don't believe that accounts payable should be one of them if it's being run correctly, and frankly if a position is actually too tough for a sensitive person, then(barring rare cases of self harm) those sensitive people will leave on their own.

And I'll admit my bias here, because the last time suggested that I wasn't cut out for a position they put me in a worse position with more work, less pay and hostile and uncommunicative coworkers. So I tend to think that this is just a ploy to seem charitable.

"No mention of how long the other people have been there so all of that is a assumption on your part there"

Not really, I wasn't talking about people being in the same job for a long time I was talking about people with decades more work experience -in general.

A GenXer and a GenZer can start a job the same day, but it's undeniable that the older person is going to have more experience. Even if you account for changing entire industries later in life, the transferable skills can not be ignored.

And even if it turns out that the older person is just as bad or worse than the younger person.. that's going to be attributed to them personally not to their entire demographic.

Generally I was under the impression that judging people by their demographic was gauche, but when it's presented with a veneer of scientific substantiation people forget that.

"That would be the easily offended bit"

Well the article doesn't ever define what that means.

But let's suppose that you're right and it is about labor rights, if that is the case, the problem is not that the young people are lazy or oversensitive, it's that their employers are breaking the law and firing them to cover their tracks(which is also illegal).

And as I said, people who get fired for bringing up labor violations skew younger and inexperienced, because those of us with a modicum of experience know how quickly and how easily unethical businesses can screw you over. So we are a bit more judicious about when or if we bring them up.

As a side note, it's worth calling corporate or the labor board for other people or for past jobs, I knew a girl, teenager, no family, no money who was held in a dangerously hot building(malfunctioning oven) with no water as she broke out in hives while being threatened with firing if she went outside.

I called corporate immediately, the situation was resolved and the manager was gone within a week. That poor girl had enough problems without worrying about dying on the floor of a Drive-in floor.

"many don't know their rights they know what they think they are but not what they are"

Well, there could be confusion, that's true. I doubt that people are inventing fake labor rights in mass, but I'm sure it does occur on occasion. But that has never once been the case in all of my experience. Most of the time labor violations are very real, and most of the time when people say "that's not one of your labor rights" they're lying through their teeth.

And what's more, firing people for labor complaints is still retaliation even if those complaints aren't based on actual crimes.

And if the company were actually even remotely interested in keeping their young employees, addressing concerns and correcting misinformation about how the business is run is hardly some excessive burden. In fact, in many cases, informing employees of their labor rights is required by law.

If an employee comes to their superior with a labor complaint, and is fired as a result, regardless of the legality of the initial concern, that business just violated labor law and clearly isn't that invested in their employees anyway.

"your employment rights vary from state to state CA has some pretty good stuff when it comes to hourly worker and mandatory breaks and how overtime is paid out, Iowa does not"

True, but even in places where certain things are supposedly guaranteed that doesn't actually mean they will be. I've had office jobs where breaks for example were legally required but either never mentioned or heavily restricted.

Labor laws are not well enforced.

"your rights are going to be prominently listed on a poster in a conspicuous place wherever you work."

Well that's just not true.

Out of the last ~8 jobs or so I had in America, only one has ever had any listing of rights, and even then the list was highly limited and only recommended calls to corporate..

That was a fairly decent job all things considered so I never had any reason to make a call, but all the same it wasn't exactly clear, honest and disinterested disclosure of my rights.

"Your boss will know the labor laws, most likely, or HR if you're in a large enough company to have a HR department."

Oh yes, which is why I knew when people asked me to clock out and keep working or when they decided to rescind my pay that knew that they were breaking the law.

But what was I supposed to do about it.

"This is also linked in the original article that you didn't bother to look at."

I don't care for the tone, I think I've made it clear that the survey isn't very informative and the opinion title made that clear from the start.

Also this is a post on tumblr.com.

I type a lot, but I've not going to give a fully academic breakdown of every bad article on the site.

It's not some breach of moral duty.

"Lack of technological skills pops up again, which kind of messes up the "more educated" bit you're pulling out there in your response."

No it really doesn't.

"A look at older members of Generation Z suggests they are on a somewhat different educational trajectory than the generations that came before them. They are less likely to drop out of high school and more likely to be enrolled in college. Among 18- to 21-year-olds no longer in high school in 2018, 57% were enrolled in a two-year or four-year college. This compares with 52% among Millennials in 2003 and 43% among members of Gen X in 1987." - Pew Research Center

I still don't know what "technical skills" they're referring to(and neither do you for that matter) but lacking a certain technical skill is not the same thing as being uneducated.

"Here's a bit of a olive branch, that can be taken as you like but I think it would be wise to take it to heart."

I'm not sure what you mean.

Yes, the pandemic put an upset in the system but I don't think that framing it as an explanation for why young people are bad is a fair framing.

Especially when they alleged faults are not making eye contact(especially irrelevant during video conferences) and an unusual relationship to hierarchy. Both of those are popularly known traits of autism by the by(eye contact is neither a moral nor a labor necessity) and an "atypical" relationship to hierarchy and authority is completely normal and in fact should be expected.

Americans usually change careers multiple time in their lives, that's been the case for decades and the pandemic has only accelerated it. Especially when so many of these hierarchys have been proven to be fake.

For years disabled people were told that it would be impossible to accommodate them, and then a quarantine happens and then all of a sudden everything's possible.

No one- is going to maintain credibility after so much charlatanry is exposed.

"Just don't complain about not having any friends at work if you never join the conversation."

I don't find that to be a common complaint.

Especially given that the initial post was about "personality hires".

Personally I've always gotten along well with my coworkers, which is nice, but at the same time, having your primary social circle be your coworkers is actually not a good idea.

"Maybe show some respect to people at the get go, that's a very good idea even at McDonald's."

I agree, but that does not seem like a correct assessment of the situation.

Employment is a voluntary contract, it is not immoral let alone rude to want to set your own hours or to control your working conditions, especially when these things you have been promised.

I've also never worked in a job where I didn't refer to my boss by their first name, in any country, in fact I often did not even know their surname.

I'd say that maybe it's different in the medical field, but I have family who works in that field and they only use surnames for doctors they don't personally work with. And even then primarily with the doctors they don't like.

"Housing crisis bit, gen-z isn't in that age range just yet so don't give up hope there."

Incorrect.

This is not a matter of savings or of age.

And that misconception is partly why people are coming up with all these wild ideas to blame young people.

In the last three years alone(since the pandemic) the average price of a home has jumped ~20%. Needless to say that wages haven't.

I do think that things will acclimate.. eventually. But for people like me, that mean years living in an abusive household which I couldn't afford to leave.

I had to leave the country entirely, because it was cheaper to plan an international move than it was to rent an apartment and honestly I don't see a financially viable future for myself in America any time soon.

Things were bad before the pandemic, now they're wrecked.

I'm not surprised that there are Millennials buying property, obviously the housing market hasn't shut down entirely, but like all luxury goods, high sales does not mean that everyone has access.

I'm from Arkansas, it's one of the cheapest places to live in America, but that doesn't change the fact that every person I know who's my age who's not living with their parents is either an engineer or living with a partner.

"Then there's this, which will not do you any favors."

Do me favors?

Why are you writing like this is has any sort of weight on my character. It's quite presumptuous, dare I say.. rude..

In any case, avoiding student debt payments is not disproving anything I said. People who are financially well off typically pay debts if for no other reason than because it's easier than avoiding them.

"The fatalistic attitude you've displayed in the last bit of your response is being shown here in spades"

Gen Z workers are more educated they are finding worse jobs the value of wages is at best stagnating because the cost of living is rising.

And as you so pertinently brought up, they also have record amounts of student debt, which they probably needed to get those poorly paying jobs in the first place.

I'm not being fatalistic; these are just realities.

Living in denial is not some sign of a healthy attitude and it's not an improvement.

I get that you're trying to be helpful here, but all you're really doing is ignoring the nature of the problem and blaming young people for it.

It's already not a great situation, there's no need for you or anyone to go and make it worse by being condescending and unempathetic.

Things will probably get better, that's not really my or anyone's major concern, but just because a forest will grow back after a fire doesn't mean that we shouldn't care about the people choking on smoke right now. It definitely doesn't mean that we should fan the flames.

"the people not paying back their student loans because they don't care about their credit score because they don't think they'll ever buy a home anyhow forgetting that that score determines car loans, any credit cards, rental issues can be created just all kinds of bad things can follow you around if you don't pay your debts."

So you've decided to believe that an entire demographic, millions of people, are just stupid.. instead of thinking that they're doing the best they can under the circumstances.

You're very quickly running past understandable norms of uninformed. It's not endearing.

"So like I said don't give up hope, learn to take criticism, remember to ask for help if you need it at work because your boss was new at one point too and can help you get the experience you need."

I know how to take criticism, I'm an abuse survivor, any time I'm more than a doormat it's a feat.

I just don't normally take criticism from people who are unkind and unwilling to see past their own perspective.

I'm trying to be charitable here, but you were the one so invested in the implied(but unproven) claims of a collection of articles that you wanted to respond in detail with all the ways that young people are to blame.

Clearly, this is something personal for you. I could guess why, but I'd rather not.

"They want you to do well because it makes them look good too,"

Some people do, others don't. I've had good bosses and bosses that cheated me, I've had bosses actively hated me. Fortunately I learned to read people as a survival skill so it's rare that I'm blindsided.

But the harsh reality is that most Bosses are politely neutral, there is little to no inherent motivation to help your employees succeed it has to be a personal internal motivation.

Some of the worst employers I ever had, had years long records of incompetency, if not outright crime, which never caught up to them.

But how stupid do you honestly think I am. That's not a rhetorical question, I'm generally curious who you think is this comment is addressing. What do you think, that I'm some teenybopper who's too prideful to tell someone when they're confused?

I didn't exactly learn a foreign language or move across continents without asking for help.

"Even then it's better to catalogue your issues and take it over your bosses head to their boss."

Thanks I have an e-mail address for precisely that.

But also, that can get you fired, which is why those situations are such balancing acts.

"And please before writing out a long as response again, read the article instead of assuming you know what it says"

Which article? I think you cited four of them.

But I've read several of them and they're all exactly what I thought.

A contentious conclusion based on very poor data interpretation with a bent on blaming young people, even for things that aren't negatives.

It's practically textbook at this point, people said the same thing about the Milennials and even Gen X and the Baby Boomers.

"because that's going to be another red flag that can get you fired, making assumptions without actually checking the facts."

Speaking of making assumptions.

Darling I have a whole research degree, I can smell a bad study a mile away on a normal day. Let alone when the titles are opinion poll data with no obvious applicability. It also means that I research everything anyways, often too much.

But even if I were the average internet denizen with no special skills or education You don't seem to have realize that you're being very condescending by waltzing in here and trying to correct presumed behavior problems, as if I were some delinquent teenager. It would be funny if it weren't so rude.

As far as I can tell I was actually more right than even I suspected about this article, but even if I was dead wrong what kind of entitlement complex do you have where you're expecting me to blog like it's a job interview. This is a fun pastime if anything.

It's not endearing behavior, which I've already said, so you ought to credit me with restraint.

And because of how you've acted so far I'm going to have to ask you to take your own advice and take this criticism with some grace and not make it all about you.

Because no matter your intentions you've not garnered much in the way of sympathy from me.

However, if you want to avoid falling into this exact type of "blaming the youths" stereotypes I'd recommend this video the presenter is obviously not the best at public speaking but he has a lot of good points, and in fact he addresses several of your concerns.

Except of course this video is seven years old and all these stereotypes were attributed to Millennials at the time.

Because this is one of the many parts of our culture which is recycled without end.

One of favorite parts of that video is when it talks about the entitled young who don't want to work, from a magazine in the '60s describing baby boomers, and then the 1990 article talking about how Generation X was unemployed, delayed and lazy, and then the 2013 article calling Milennials narcissistic.

And now here we are again.

Someone needs a vibe check up the side of her head.

#Gen z #milennials #Gen x #labor #misinformation #data literacy

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