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sillyfudgemonkeys · 4 years ago

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while i think OBJECTIVELY, okumura’s arc was the absolute worst, i also agree that kaneshiro’s was a close second. honestly, for me personally, kaneshiro’s is worst because of my personal hatred of makoto and the fact that the bank arc is never criticized elsewhere (usually praised for the music, makoto’s awakening, and the dungeon of all things) in comparison to okumura’s arc which is universally hated (both in story and dungeon)

I dunno if it can be objectively tbh, writing wise that is (it’s hard to say something subjective is objective in general, nothing against you just....I’ve been grappling with this myself tbh). I do think if there was a measure to something being objectively bad writing wise.......I’d ask these questions (like I’ve said, I’ve been thinking a bit on this for awhile kfdjaslfa;): Is it consistent?, Does it contradict?, Does it make sense? .....first two can be grouped together tbh (and tbh P5 is littered with all three regardless lfkdjsakf;) But yeah I do know I’m hella biased against Makoto (tho it’s because of how dungeon 3 played out that caused me to hate her) so like there’s that. 8U

Anyway time to make an argument as to why the fandom should adopt Kane as the worst arc, under cut:

Dungeon design I won’t defend it, it’s a slog (tbh anything after Mada goes on for waaaaay to long, needs more substance if they’re gonna make us slog through the dungeon for that long, gimme some cutscenes damnit), it really hurts my eyes (I love blue, tbh deserts are my worst enemy with games, cause they hurt my eyes the most, but they did something with Oku), and I know people HATE the air lock puzzles (I love them aklfdjska;jfa they aren’t that bad tbh, you just kinda go forward). The puzzles are the only reason I don’t mind it kfldjsafj;akjf;

Ngl whenever I think of Oku’s arc writing wise I’m just...”yadda yadda bs fight, yadda yadda go into dungeon meet Haru/Mona, yadda yadda won’t make up, yadda yadda Anne found Haru, yadda yadda having a nice talk with Haru, MAKOTO CHASES HARU AWAY, yadda yadda Haru tries to run us over (did Mona tell her or did she do it on her own, this would be INTERESTING TO EXPLORE ATLUS!), yadda yadda mona got kicked, Haru in trouble, say we will help Haru, go in dungeon, Haru now full Persona, slog through dungeon, Oku’s been doing stuff people have already told us he is doing! :O SHOCKER! slog through dungeon, slog, slog, Oku fight, he bad, Oku dead, Haru says how her dad was poor. Done.

Is it a boring ass slog where Haru gets sidelined for a dumb fight, a fight that should’ve been written better? Yeah. Now is it consistent/does it contradict? Fore the most part yeah.....I think......There are some questions raised about Goro and the Metaverse (and how Futaba is a shit Navi *cough* good job detecting him when you guys dragged him in >.>....ngl makes me think she......she’d lose to Rise/Fuuka in terms of locating, aka I don’t think locating people is Futaba’s strong suit). But everything else? Yeah, Ryu’s/Mona fight started with Futaba having a moment on the beach and built from there. Only thing really jank is I think it’s Yusuke/Anne who flip flop on thoughts on Oku (I remember this point more from the P5 crit video tbh). And PQ2 lies about why they went after Oku iirc (or there was more to what was going on and yeah....oversimplified it), but that’s PQ2. And they seem to be surprised by what’s happening to the Robots.....despite.....knowing he’s like that..... Does it make sense? Stupidly bt yes, it’s not fun and boring but yeah. Tbh I really need to refresh myself with Oku’s dungeon (I ought to pick Royal back up sakldjfa;jfl blame the move and Smite tbh), because it’s just......bare......and simple....and dumb....and shallow....and boring. (if you have something to add I’d love to hear it, I really need to refresh myself on it cause....Kane’s is just....so much worse imo).

Ok so low key, surprised people even like the dungeon’s design. Is it cause it’s a bank? Cause it’s kinda bland, doesn’t help Kane’s the least developed antagonist in the entire game (you’d think they counterbalance not seeing him irl with the Shadow but nope). It’s just grey walls and piggy banks. Not really a puzzle (or what is one is easy/can easily have the solution looked up so it’s not really testing the player). I don’t really care for the music (I only think Sae’s and Royal’s is worth listening to iirc, but I also don’t care for P5′s music in general.....). If you like Makoto I can see you liking this dungeon (other than the music) but that’s it. I still don’t get what’s so great about her awakening. She summoned her Persona and hit enemies with it? Great. Is it cause it’s a bike? Or cause she hit enemies with it? I mean I guess if you like the bike (y’all know I hate the thing ksladjf;a so many issues and I think it looks boring/ugly tbh). I swear to god tho, if it’s because she stops her foot.....Anne literally broke out of steel/iron (?) shackles, disarmed a shadow, jumped several feet into the air while swinging a heavy ass steal(?) sword. Anne’s showcased Persona user’s strength, Makoto’s gonna need to raise the bar A LOT higher than “I stomped my foot cause I was angry and then I beat shadows with my persona-I’m special. uwu” :/ (ngl was disenchanted with Yusuke/Mako(and Futaba I guess)’s awakening, Anne’s showcased power, MC showcased blood/brutality, Ryu’s showcased the pain, Futaba’s was just P4 so nothing special, Haru’s only stood out after all that because of how hammy it was, but Yusuke/Mako/Futaba I didn’t care for cause it was stuff I already seen and wasn’t anything new).

....anyway...onto my three questions for dungeon 3.....Is it consistent/does it contradict? .......so like.....the better question....is when doesn’t it contradict? Anne’s character? We’re gonna act like it’s more her fault so we can make Makoto look better for when we force her on the team, doesn’t matter that we’ve been showing/stating that Anne didn’t know about Kamo’s abuse towards Shiho because of the miscommunication she was having, we’re gonna make it so that she should feel guilty for not having helped Shiho....even tho she WAS helping her just for a different issue. Iirc Mona states something about having Mako be the key, and then the NEXT GOD DAMN SCENE Mako’s acts like it was her idea:

Hi key had a freaking shit fit when I saw this. What do you mean you had this thought? How many people wrote these scenes without communicating with each other???? Mona had the idea??????? Which is why we even brought you along in the first place????? The hell????? It just doesn’t feel connected at all????

The game acts like she’s so smart suddenly, and even takes shit that she didn’t even come up with. Acts like she can def be level headed when she LITERALLY JUST RAN INTO A MAFIA DEN CAUSE SHE WAS TINY BIT STRESSED! Claims she has all these adults on her ass, when it’s just one (who backs down when she says no...AND IT WORKS), and the other who is just trying so hard to be a parent and a sister (who they keep wishy washy so we can like her later cause see she’s not all bad! uwu poor Sae ;w;). Acts like her arc is about adults telling her what to do and getting in her way and probably the reason she didn’t help with Kamo....EVEN THO SHE SAYS SHE DIDN’T DO ANYTHING CAUSE SHE DIDN’T CARE! And while it’s contradicted in retrospect, iirc it’s in her CoOp where she’s like “being a prim and proper prez won’t help me here” (or at least claiming she was one) when like/????? no she did illegal shit this entire arc, which fkldjsaf;jskjsfadf FREAKING LAUGHABLE she is after us when she is 1) stalking, 2) taking illegal recordings, 3) taking illegal photos, 4) harassing us in general like????? you’re the criminal Makoto (tbh her, Futaba, and Goro are the real criminals of the PT skldfjajf the only illegal shit happens cause of them).

Then there’s the plan scene:

Makoto: What’s your guy’s plan? Ryu/Yuske/whoever: We kinda just go in and look around? Makoto: oh you don’t have a plan? well good thing I’m here! Me: What’s your plan Makoto? Makoto: We’re gonna go in and look around! Me: (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

Pre Mako: We worked together to come up with a plan to attempt to sneak the treasure out! Post Mako: You don’t plan????? Good thing Mako’s here! We’re not going to attempt to steal the treasure by sneaking it out, instead we’re just gonna walk in there.....that’s it, no plan, and when there is one it’s gonna suck ass realistically but we’re gonna make it work through the power of ~plot convenience~! Me: (ノಥ,_｣ಥ)ノ彡┻━┻

Mona: Oh Makoto called to apologize for getting your number via Leblanc. She must be ok! Me: Mona she threatened my livelihood, has been stalking me for weeks, wants me to go after a dangerous criminal that could risk my life AND livelihood otherwise she’ll just destroy my livelihood, wouldn’t help with our investigation one gd bit, chased away my one gd lead.....and..Do....do you think....she’s....”not bad?” Is that where your standards lie?

Game: You just need to change the person’s cognition and ya golden! Me: Well Kane said we are his customers, can we get in without Mako? Game: Nope! Me: Why? Game: We just need her in the plot is all. Me: But we COULD go without her. Game:

Me: ????? BUT YOU WROTE THOSE RULES AND SAID THAT THEY WERE KANE’S CUSTOMERS?????!!!

Me: So Makoto can ride her Persona....that kinda shows they can all touch their Personas. Game: .......... Me: Why didn’t they try riding their Personas up to Kane in the first place? Game: .......only Arsene has wings..... Me: I’m sorry but as Pennywise would say, “They all float down here.” Game:

PT: Man we sure do need a target! I wonder if there are any good leads Me: We literally just heard a rumor on the train this morning about a mob boss- PT: Man sure is sad we have no knew leads. u_u Me: I swear to god, I’m this close......I’m THIS close.....

On a non Makoto related BS thing the game does this dungeon: PT: We need to go after bad guys! Me: What about going after the ones the police are going after! PT: No because they’ll take the credit. Me: Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow this says so much about your character, I thought it didn’t matter unless we were helping other’s? Did I just get teleported to the 5th dungeon for a sec? What’s with this BULLSHIT? I get you need popularity for Mementos but first and foremost was helping people right? I’m not just bullshitting myself right???? So you mean to tell me, before it actually even went to your head, you already cared about popularity over helping people in general? Holy shit. You know, I give Junpei a lot of shit, but at least he and Yosuke have the integrity to keep doing what they need to do and not deciding not to do their damn job because people aren’t noticing them. You guys are horrible heroes.

So yeah it’s not just Mako (or because of Mako, but most of it is because of Mako) that messes up the team/writing, even when she’s not related we get lovely pieces like that. It’s inconsistent and contradictory (Futaba is just as bad, it’s just aimed a lore elements that can easily be missed, rather than character/plot writing like Mako’s arc is). Lemme tell you, I’m literally having a shit fit every 2 seconds (btw I can go on about a 2 hour rant with probs each line like that’s how much I get tilted with this dungeon and it’s BS, lying straight to my face they think they can well I’ll just scream into the void! >XO) with both Mako/Futaba, but esp Mako. Oku’s might have a few contradictions or inconsistencies, but nowhere NEAR as many as Mako’s does.

So now it begs the question.....does it make sense? No. Absolutely not. With that many inconsistencies/contradictions......how can it? Hell the premise makes no gd sense even knowing Humpty Dumpty is with the evil organization. Using her would make no sense, hell he has like a few suspects he could EASILY make a list without even asking around school (both Volleyball teams+track team+Ryuji+MC+Anne because he admitted to all that on stage next to the guy!) Hell it makes no sense why he’s part of the conspiracy when like......his position seems to do nothing for them. It’s just there for bullshit reasons, and to make Mako be put into a bullshit situation, it’d make more sense to hire Goro than ask a normal high school student to play detective (even tho Goro is probs the other one who provided a list, the hell are they asking the principal when they already used Goro?????) Hell, Kane targeting Syujin kids makes no sense, esp when their uniform is very recognizable! 1) They are already in the news for controversy (so unneeded attention), and 2) they’re connected to a fellow conspiracy member, why would you knowingly want to screw him over???? It just makes the conspiracy look dumber than they already look.

Then there’s also the fact chars act dumber, either to make Mako look smarter, or to make it so she can join the team later. The whole arc smells of plot contrivance AND plot convenience. Literally bending over backwards to justify her joining when....the game accidentally wrote almost every way she didn’t need to join. 1) Found out about Kane before her, 2) Found his name without her help, 3) could use Personas to fly up to his dungeon if they tried it, 4) if for some stupid reason they couldn’t, they’d just make one of them a customer (hell probs just need to “join a scheme” like the other high school kids with the lackeys rather than run into his den himself, Kane seems to keep track of everyone) The game just doesn’t need her, but it realizes that and has to inconvenience itself and twist itself around to try to justify her.

And this is probably only scratching the surface cause....it’s late.....but this is what I remember off the top of my head at 5 am.

Like Oku’s is bad, but Kane’s is abysmal (oh, and at least with Oku we kinda KNOW why he’s crazy about power, Kane is more vague, which isn’t good for an already underdeveloped char). I don’t know why the fandom signed off on Oku being the worst when Kane’s around. Or even that “the game gets better when Futaba joins” (it doesn’t, the game was on a decline since Kamo’s dungeon, Futaba was just an apparent uptick from Mako, mostly cause it lacks the character/story assassination that Mako’s had) when the freaking way they handle mental illness should be a big red flag for everyone (the lore stuff? def will go over newbies heads, I get not everyone is a lore whore like me but c’mon, some stuff does make you question it tho even when you only look at P5).

But yeah I think Kane’s has more writing issues than Oku’s does. Oku’s writing is bland, with one of the worst dungeons, but Kane has the worst writing and a very bland dungeon when you just....look at it.Kane does get shit, but I don’t know why Oku gets more shit, I get gameplay wise the dungeon can be frustrating, but my god......the writing in Kane is......just horrible all around.

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