#don’t even get me started on how becoming soulless and committing atrocities made him feel that he could never be good again

[soullessjack]

I truly cannot stress enough that jack hated himself for Kelly’s death and blamed it on himself and his own existence and his inherently evil nature and that in Byzantium when he got to meet her he was looking into her eyes with so much love and sorrow and she cradled his face and he buried it in her shoulder to hug her and this was the woman he thought he had murdered by simply existing and being what he was. And she loved him and she always made sure he knew it and because he knew she loved him he wanted so badly to be worth that love. He wanted his life to be worth her death. I cannot stress it. He wanted his life to be worth her death and to amend for destroying her. I really can’t.

[veronicamars]

I'm curious about your feelings for Angel? Because Angel was horrible without a soul as well. Sorry if you have been asked this thousands of times, I am a newer follower!

Welcome, newer follower! You seem to have left an essay prompt in my inbox haha

I love Angel! I always liked Angel but he definitely becomes much more endearing on his own series. While there are a couple of exceptions (Logan Echolls) I tend to not really care for/dislike the Bad Boy character – obviously without a soul he is horrible and bad, no one would argue that, but there’s never an attempt to humanize him or redeem him because he’s ultimately nothing more than a villain – but anyway: with a soul, I do not see Angel to fit the Bad Bad character at all and is actually a good person at his core.

A lot of people hate that he’s ~so broody~ and it makes him boring and I can understand why people may not find that… entertaining? but it endears me to the character so much more and makes me like Angel because he has good reason to be broody! I mean, he has 100+ years worth of very vivid memories of committing atrocities and seeing people in agony. Having such images deeply ingrained in your memory makes them impossible to just forget and move on from and it will certainly affect your outlook on things. Immediately after he is cursed with his soul (the first time), he is told that he is a monster before he even gets his memories back, then he’s rejected from his ~vampire family. Angel says to Buffy that “Loneliness is about the scariest thing there is.” which I think is notable because he knows loneliness because he’s lived it. After getting his soul, he spends another 100+ years of being alone and having zero ties to the world; he’s a menace to both vampires and humans so he fits no where. Honestly, I teeter-totter on whether Angel should feel guilty over this because it’s like being stuck in the back seat while someone else is driving and you have no control; but then I’m like??? he should feel guilty, though. Perhaps not necessarily in the sense that he had control but just because of having all those memories and seeing so much pain. Also, if he doesn’t take responsibility for those soulless crimes, who will? The answer is no one and even if the victims and their families have been dead for a long time, they still deserve their justice and recognition. I don’t think it’s ever made explicit but it could also make a person think, “What does this say about who I am?” All that being said, I think that his broodiness is very overblown ‘cause he does plenty more than that, especially on his own series.

This goes with me thinking that Angel is just a good person: his treatment of Holtz during Angel season 3, which I can’t help but compare to Spike’s treatment of Robin Wood in Buffy season 7. Angel is never an asshole to Holtz; he realises the pain that Holtz has been put through. Even when Holtz kidnaps his son and raises him in a hell dimension to hate Angel(!), he still treats Holtz pretty respectfully. Spike on the other hand is a complete asshole to Wood and lacks any sort of sympathy and it is unbelievably disrespectful.

I think he’s a very interesting character with pretty solid character development and a clearly defined arc. To quote @faithlehne​ who also contributed to this long answer to the question you’ve posed me, “There is no end point where he is truly redeemed, redemption is Angel’s hero’s story.” Season 2 of Angel shows a complexity to the character, which is interesting. He really messes up but I especially like that he is not readily accepted back into his group of friends and everything is quickly resolved. And then his development/arc is interesting because he starts off from as a complete disaster and then regains some faith in humanity and the world when he connects with Buffy. Even then he still starts off as kind of a coward but he develops into someone who can lead and do good. Between the end of season 3 of Buffy and season 1 of Angel, he’s trying to distance himself again from humanity but his experiences have changed him greatly. He comes to understand why he should fight:

“I wanna help because I don’t think people should suffer as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.”

Not for reward but because it’s right. And, hey, as an immortal you can fight the good fight for, like, a really long time! Also, that quote sums up a good part of why I like Angel and think he is genuinely a good person.

Quoting @faithlehne here again in saying that Angel isn’t inherently good because he has soul, it’s the choices he makes that define him. The “as well” in your question sounds in reference to Spike for me [maybe I’m just on high alert for these things, idk], which leads me to this discussion. It matters how these characters are presented within the show: Angel with a soul is good and part of the gang. Angel without a soul is the big bad. No one is downplaying Angel’s soulless acts. During seasons 5&6 and part of 4, Spike without a soul is basically part of the gang, part of the opening credits, a love interest of Buffy’s, and certainly presented as more of an ally than a villain; because of all this, he should not at all be absolved from criticism just because he doesn’t have a soul, especially when the behaviours and attitudes he portrays are very present issues in our society. Soulless vampire or not, depicting these harmful messages as anything other than harmful is damaging. (Which they do by keeping his character as some valued ally and not reprimanding his behaviour)

I like how philosophical Angel is and he has some wonderful and inspiring speeches: “If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.” / “We live as though the world were as it should be, to show it what it can be.” I like that Angel is a dorky fanilow. I like that Angel is funny without ever being mean or gross. IDK I guess I just like Angel!