#divinekangaroo

[deadendtracks]

responding to @divinekangaroo's response to me!

re: the Lizzie scene in s2, I never feel like I can articulate what I see in any kind of coherent way. It's one of those completely *weird* scenes that CM throws in every so often that isn't quite what you'd expect it to be but isn't particularly easily defined, either.

The impending assassination and his emotional shut down over Grace are definitely elements!

The ability to get away from being used to kill, but then being locked back into it against his will.

Yeah, absolutely, this is incredibly important to both season 2 and season 3 (and arguably season 5 in a different way).

I have such a sense he’s almost *forcing* himself to do it.

Yeah absolutely, that's how I look at it too. I don't sense any anger in it, but Tommy does often react to situations he can't escape by 'going away' in a sense (dissociating, detaching, withdrawing emotionally).

I wonder how this fits with what you talk about later regarding him 'acting out' on Lizzie what's being done to him -- would he have to so obviously force himself to do this if that were the case? It seems like it would be more compulsive/irresistible and feel necessary for him if that was the motivating factor? He doesn't seem to be aware enough to have it be the case that he feels this compulsion and knows where it's coming from and is struggling with it by becoming detached, idk.

From Lizzie’s words (and how warm the two of them are in the typewriter scene) I have to assume they’ve had a relatively amicable paid sexual relationship, and Tommy’s definitely acting different in that particular scene.

Yeah definitely. This tends to be misinterpreted by some parts of fandom as how he *always* is with Lizzie, but Lizzie's reaction to him is definitely a little "idk what *that* was about" and she wouldn't behave the way she does if that was how he typically treated her. There's also the fact that despite his demeanor in that scene where he seems to be dismissive of her, in the next scene he shows he'd listened to her and thought about what she said.

It’s not really about pleasure or release before a risky venture that might kill him. It’s not even about Lizzie at all, or a comment on his prior (or upcoming) connection with Lizzie. A reminder to himself about being used, the way certain disadvantaged people are always used no matter what they actually want, the way he feels about being used that way. And a very strong reminder at the end when Lizzie outreaches for connection that you take the money and treat the exchange as a transaction.

Yeah, that could be part of it, though to me it doesn't feel like he's aware enough even of Lizzie's presence for this to be a kind of acting out of that dynamic on another person -- instead it's like she's not even there (and he's not there either). In some ways you wonder why he's doing it at all. One of my theories about Tommy & sex is that he uses it to get out of his own anxiety spirals/out of his head, so maybe that was what he was hoping would happen and he was just too dissociated from the fact of what he was about to do to get anything out of it but taking the edge off.

So he uses Lizzie, not cruelly or unfairly in that desk scene given she is a prostitute then: she’s his only lover that he doesn’t have to perform with. He can have terrible sex, he doesn’t have to think about her pleasure, he doesn’t have to perform or satisfy her or try to influence her.

In some ways she's also the only person he doesn't have to perform for period, he's always performing for his family, he's always performing for his enemies and for the upper classes. He can often be quite 'flat affect' with them but never quite to this extent; with Lizzie he can drop even the pretense that he's present. Which isn't great for her! But his reaction to her wanting *more* from him ('i wish just once you wouldn't pay for it like normal people' or whatever she says) could be all about the fact that what he *wants* in that moment is to not have to be anything or anyone to her or himself, he wants to *not be.*

Tangentially: I also think a lot of his behaviours with Lizzie are actually about what’s going on in himself, not about his feelings for her.

Yeah, absolutely. His first scene with her at Epsom is about this; he's too wrapped up in what he's about to do to even hear what she's saying or how she feels about it; and I don't think it has a lot to do with what he thinks about her as a person, he's just dropped into that headspace where he can't spare anything for anyone.

This Lizzie as a Tommy-distorted-mirror warps and shifts over time, but I think S2 in particular she’s almost this “sexual-tool / extension-of-himself” to be that mirror of him being used as a “killing-tool” where he has no choice, and he actively uses her that way in the sex scene and at Epsom.

That's an interesting point. To riff on it a bit I think it connects to "everyone's a whore, Grace" and to "everyone gets tired, Finn" -- I think in a wider sense Tommy's thinking is nearly always war-time, in that everyone around him is also a combatant and there are no civilians. It's the same with his brothers often, it's the same with how he has disregard for the civilians in the housing project in the season 4 shootout: this is a battlefield for him so he treats everyone else as if they're also in the battlefield situation with him.

Which... at least for Lizzie and those civilians in s4, they didn't sign up for this! He blurs the lines between how people use their bodies-as-tools, including, later, himself. I think a lot of this comes from having been a lower level officer ranked over his brothers -- to have mentally survived at some point he'd have had to detach from any personal feelings about who he's 'using' to fight these battles and how, and now he can't turn it off.

He also fully intended for Lizzie not to have to go through with it, which is important; at the same time he'd have to know there'd always be a risk of that going wrong in ways that (at that point) wouldn't be true of himself (he'd end up injured, killed, arrested rather than raped).

asking for Lizzie as a thing/a Tommy substitute -- well, he actually did do that to Lizzie at Epsom, because he couldn’t do it himself. 

And it shows how he changes by s5 where he absolutely would never offer Lizzie to Moseley even if it would be strategically advantageous; instead he'll keep putting himself into the position where it's possible he'll have to do it himself, which terrifies him.

[dogmetaph0r]

WIP Game!

Rules: make a new post with the names of all the files in your WIP folder, regardless of how non-descriptive or ridiculous. let people send you an ask with the title that most intrigues them, and then post a little snippet or tell them something about it! and then tag as many people as you have WIPs.

Ty for the tag @evita-shelby and @capnmachete (who tagged me a long while ago on main but I am terrible at finishing tag games sfjdjejfj)

Sic Em* (*3 documents bc it is a victor hugo length fic)

lover, tell me

stay with me (hold my hand)

if the hackers find this fic I’m fucking screwed (aka feels like gold when you hold it)

bullied child mentality tommy introspection

i owe you a black eye + 2 kisses

bedroom hymns (wip?? abandoned??)

funny honey

operant conditioning (carrot, stick)

whump, Theory style!!!!!

Oh my GOD I don’t even think I know enough ppl to complete this fgjgjfjrkrkgk………..but let’s Do Our Best™️

No pressure tags: @susandsnell @vehiculartheyslaughter @todaysrat @agentidiot @morning-alfie @elskiee @divinekangaroo OH my god I got anxious for no reason this is as long as I can think abt it. anyone can play if u like <33

[sarasa-cat]

Tagged by @divinekangaroo

Tagging: @shadoedseptmbr @stealthnoodle @cassandra-allegra @shadesofmauve @thehungrycity

[noyoucantpinmedown]

List 5 things that make you happy, then put this in the askbox for the last 10 people who reblogged something from you! get to know your mutuals and followers ♡

I love this ask <3

1. My cat

2. Tea with lemon

3. The sound of a thunderstorm outside

4. Seeing my friends

5. Drawing

Tagging: @shi-daisy @ampuru @drylan @bowl-1 @cloudycaffeinatedcryptid @divinekangaroo @ambreiiigns @ghostradiodylan @gwunc4nlover @thephantomrunner

[aneurinallday]

I'm living for @divinekangaroo's tags. This person gets it.

Them: "While kneeling in a puddle of - " Me: GO ON??? 👀 Them: " - his own acrid malice." Me: Oh.

[coffeeatnight23]

@divinekangaroo you make me self-conscious about the structure of my imaginary 1920s master bathroom

[normalbrothers]

rereading the sadeian woman after having rec'd it to @divinekangaroo and i do need to know knight's bibliography

[deadendtracks]

Response to @divinekangaroo's reply to me in this thread:

Reading your comments up above, it also struck me I'm falling into the Myth of Tommy Shelby as that educated self-critical man, too, which he sort of presents - when in fact he's frequently very uncritical / unplanned and just *does the thing* then suffers the consequences after. (Also the kind of: Tommy saying "i'm an extreme example of what a working class man can achieve" - the delusion in this statement. "I have no limitations." again, the delusion. Does he even believe these words he's saying?)

Yeah, that's just it: he's not educated (traditionally) -- he's an autodidact. He's very intelligent but he is *not* an intellectual -- he doesn't have the time or patience for it. For most of the show he doesn't *care* about philosophy of any kind, let alone political philosophy.

In s5 he's reading Freud and Shakespeare and Greek literature for pragmatic reasons. The Freud because of his own struggles with mental illness (it's implied whatever psychiatrist he'd gone to recommended Freud). The Shakespeare (Richard III I think, on his nightstand) and Greek literature (mentioned in the exchange with Churchill) probably have to do with his paranoia about losing his 'crown' and trying to work on his rhetoric/speech writing skills for Parliament, respectively. Which I don't really see as the same thing as trying to 'pass' as upper class; he's trying to develop his skills to get what he wants in Parliament and be effective. I don't see him going around dropping quotes at people socially in order to look educated, for example.

What I'm trying to say is he's not reading these things to be enlightened or to assimilate to the upper classes and pass as educated; he's reading them for very specific reasons. They're *tools.* Mosley points out that he doesn't have a traditional education, that he's not familiar with Nietszche. Tommy's reaction isn't one of being caught out as uneducated and therefore not 'passing' -- it's wariness about Mosley's reasons for bringing it up (and Mosley's specifically bringing up Freud). It's less Mosley rubbing his nose in his lack of education (though it is that) and more fucking with him psychologically, but that's probably a whole other essay. I've gotten off topic!

But what I mean to emphasize is that yeah, Tommy's *not* educated and he doesn't *try to pass himself off as educated* either. And I don't think you could call him 'self-critical' in the way an upper class educated man would be either.

He's fairly self-aware a lot of the time, but he's definitely not above self deception and rationalizing things. And I'm not sure self-aware is quite the same thing as self-critical. He knows what they do (the crime) is not good. He has no self deception when it comes to how they hurt people -- he says so to Michael, for example. I think he sees this as a means to an end and as you said, one of limited choices, and he *does* want to get out of it. And there's the fact that for a long time he's not fully feeling the impact of any of it, either (which I think is different from deliberately looking away from the impact. I think due to his PTSD he literally cannot feel it in a frozen/numb way, it literally does not impact him even if he looks right at it). It's interesting to contrast him with Arthur, who says he's a good man whose hands 'belong to the devil' -- it's a very different way of looking at himself; I don't think Tommy would be self-deceptive enough to call himself a good man.

But when you're talking about him being aware that going to a prostitute is specifically *sexual* violence (the way we'd understand it, i guess) and that he looks the other way because that would interfere with what he wants, I just don't think that's at all what's going on there.

He doesn't have a thought out coherent political philosophy up through s5, not in the way that might be expected of an 'educated man' (or even a working class Communist like his sister) -- Ada comments on this (if he believed anything he said he'd be dangerous) and this is evident with both Jessie Eden and his 'champagne bubbles' ramble and in that line from s4 about being an extreme example of what a working man can achieve. He sees what Mosely is and the immediate danger of fascism *and the specific threat to he and his family* but he's not a dedicated Socialist despite running as one. His only real political philosophy by s5 is that he's dragged himself up by the bootstraps.

His reasons for getting into politics in the first place aren't about political belief (and would be another essay); but he *does* start to develop beliefs and act on them almost despite himself once he's in office.

What I'm trying to get at in this digression is that despite his (proto?) Communist past, after the war he's about ensuring he and his family and his gang get enough capital to go legit; his circle of caring so to speak is literally that limited and everyone outside it -- including the 'working man' -- is excluded; and he sees even himself and his brothers as tools in reaching that goal for the family in a more military kind of way, where he will put them (and himself) at risk for the 'greater good.'

His limited 'circle' is evident in s4 when he's using factory wages and the possibility of a strike for his own ends in the vendetta. And this is tied in with what you have talked about re: the subaltern, of course, because everyone outside his family and gang have excluded him, including those supposed fellow working men.

What he says to May about laying off people versus the violence of the gun -- i think he's struggling with this point. He *does* see what the upper classes do to workers as violence, but is it any better than the violence he does with the gang? Is it worse? He feels the gang violence is more honest about what it is. They're worse than us. But he doesn't have what I'd call a coherent political stance with all of this, as self-critical as it might be, because he's seeing that ok, if being a gangster is violent and being a capitalist is violent and the alternative is being exploited as a worker, where does that leave you? Might as well keep being a gangster.

So he's gotten that far, but I don't think he'd be able to frame sex work as specifically *sexual* violence. Women just literally got the right to vote, you know?

It would be completely anachronistic to look at it that way, as far as I can tell? I haven't done a ton of research here; but going within the 'world' of the show, *nobody* looks at prostitution as sexual violence *unless the John is actually physically violent* -- someone like Tommy, who's most likely pretty straightforward, nonviolent, and pays decently (given the way Lizzie likes him, I think it's fair to say that's probably the case) wouldn't be seen as sexually violent for using a prostitute and neither would he think of himself that way. It's just not remotely on anyone's radar.

Anyway this is an example of me not being remotely concise.

What I'm trying to say is Tommy most likely looks at it as something most women would rather not do, and when he has the chance he helps Lizzie get out of it the same way he thinks of his own criminal enterprises as something he'd rather not do (and there's stigma to being a gangster -- not the same! Kind! at all! the power dynamic is completely different obviously, but it's also something he wouldn't have gotten into if *he* felt he had any other choice, either). He sees *himself* in Lizzie -- sees someone doing something to get ahead they'd rather not be doing, with ambitions to be something else. I really don't think he has any conception of *himself* as *sexually* violent towards Lizzie, even in a way that he has to squash down. It's definitely not something he's deliberately looking away from to get what he wants, you know?

It's possible I'm being really pedantic here in focusing on the 'sexual' part of the 'violence' but I think it's an important line. I do think it's closer to what you said about the way he treats himself. I'm just not convinced he'd be able to remotely articulate that any of this is specifically *sexual* violence. I don't think he can articulate for himself that what he did with Diana (what Diana did to him) was a kind of sexual violence. He'd be aware he didn't want to do it and did it anyway, and that it's impacting him in ways he thought it wouldn't and doesn't fully understand.

I think the way he equates sex work/his own trading of sex with *working* is important. If he was seeing this as *sexual* violence that he looks away from or won't engage with -- idk, to me it's much more unconscious than that? I really don't think he sees it as different from the exploitation of factory work. It's not just a rationalization he gives Finn in s4 -- it's what he says about himself, to Polly, about sleeping with Tatiana -- that he was *working.* And he gets upset at all of them for thinking he did it because he couldn't keep his dick in his pants.

It's fully possible we're talking in parallel about this? Maybe because by then the whole world is violence to him. It's probably not even a conscious repression, it's just happens, he squashes stuff down rather than examine it closely. He isn't actually that self-critical or meta-thinking a guy at all despite occasionally sounding like it?

Yeah this is closer to how I think it is for him. He's self aware of doing things that are 'wrong' to get ahead. He's aware that people get hurt. I have a whole theory about him getting into owning factories only to find out if you want to actually make a profit you *have to* exploit your workers and the impact of that on him -- I don't actually think he'd thought about it very deeply before that, when he was on the other side of it. His disgust about the whole thing to May feels kind of newly discovered, the way his "they're worse than us, they will never let us into their palaces" rant felt newly discovered, rather than something he believed all along? If that makes any sense.

The way he *doesn't have the words* about the war, I don't think he has the words for what we'd call sexual violence that isn't outright rape, and I don't think he'd have any conception that prostitution is sexual violence unless someone is literally violent. Otherwise it's just sex for money, and a job people would probably rather not do, but there's a lot of jobs people would rather not do where they're exploited by people with more money and don't have a lot of choices.

By s6 he's trying to actually change things politically to the point where people might not be forced into these kinds of choices -- the housing projects, for example. My guess is if we saw him post-s6 he'd be much farther along on his political 'development' so to speak.

Christ, sorry this was so meandering. I have no idea if I've made a coherent point or not. There's a whole thread about the impact of PTSD on all of this I haven't really even touched on but glancingly.

[deadendtracks]

oh absolutely re: grace's performativeness. and a lot of that has to do with the fact that she is feeling guilty about cheating on her husband, who by all available evidence is actually sweet and kind to her and loves her. i'd even argue grace doesn't fully give herself to the sex the way tommy ends up doing, because she's constantly asking him if he has someone else during it (her jealousy towards May in their brief interaction at the end of the season). there's a lot going on there for her and i do think her guilty conscience about cheating doesn't allow her to surrender to the moment quite in the way Tommy seems to.

@deadendtracks

S2 and the Grace scene:

I do think maybe he thought it would be for *her* and that was part of the performative lead up as well. But watch his face and physicality during that scene! It's incredibly sensual and lacks that sense of him holding back present in most of his sex scenes after.

Oh yes, I agree with this take. Starting out thinking he was giving her something and in the end he really gave himself up to it.

Funnily enough, in watching again I now get a huge sense of the performative from Grace in both scenes as well XD so maybe that was some of my first impression too. She's not surrendered/given over to the physicality initially either there's a definite sense of needing to try to navigate across their various issues to reach a certain point. Navigating from different ends to meet in the middle.

[sarasa-cat]

@divinekangaroo re that poll and your tags, I found da2’s friend-or-rival vs neutrality/meh/whatever far more dynamic of a mechanic than just “say/do the right thing and give gifts” that is normative in other games. That said, the minimization of mechanics for DAI’s advisors romances also had something going for them and the Cullen romance only blocks for plot reasons which felt more realistic than give lots of gifts to bed them.

[normalbrothers]

@divinekangaroo

there's this statue in tommy's office that caught my eye right away, and i couldn't figure out who or what it depicts exactly, though i always guessed it could be a hunting scene; it might just be actaeon and hounds (pre-devourment?*)

[deadendtracks]

final response to this post by @divinekangaroo!

“some of these might be considered trauma responses but my preference is to think he is/was always going to be this way *somewhat*#because he is this way.the particular traumas he went through were able to be framed in ways that allowed him to continue…for a while Also curious about this -- what do you think are the characteristics he has that were "always going to be this way" The key ones:  - That he struggles with actually connecting deeply with people, reading sexual cues/flirtation, because he actually connects too deeply – he holds back to avoid embarrassment if he’s misread something. Some of this leads to an inclination to prefer sex that is openly a transaction (prostitutes) because it relieves any dialogue around intimacy or connection. He can treat sex as a physical need without having to think about the other.

I can see him possibly struggling to read sexual cues/flirtation as a young man though I don't actually think he has that problem at all as an adult, post-war. I think he's just very blunt about bringing things out in the open -- and can be awkward about it in his bluntness (or doesn't care if he's being awkward/borderline rude). His reasons for doing so (with May, for example) are interesting to dig into. He does not misread the cues that Mosley is giving him; but in this case he does *not* bring it into the open bluntly.

In May's case he absolutely knows she wants to fuck him, it's not in question. He's more about putting it out there on the table as something he doesn't want to dance around (since they're alone and there's no worry about propriety). There's a lot of class stuff going on there, I think; all the talk about working class cock from his brothers and from Ada. What he isn't sure about is *why* she wants to fuck him and what she wants to get out of it. Which is why he asks if he represents something to her.

I'm not sure about him struggling to deeply connect with other people as a young person pre-war. One of the ongoing themes of the series (especially in s1) is how drastically he's changed by the war, how unrecognizable he is to his family and the people who knew him before -- it suggests this inability to connect is a result of the war and not something that was present before. At the same time I can see him being more shy around people outside his family and friend circle as a kid/young man, so I don't fully disagree I guess! Maybe it's that whatever struggle he had before the war it became terribly compounded after when he couldn't really feel anything period, which puts up a barrier when trying to connect to people. The idea Knight and CM talk about Tommy "thawing" throughout the series comes to mind. He's so emotionally frozen (and the strength of this isn't consistent; he thaws a bit and refreezes in reaction to circumstances).

Part of his aversion to connecting to people this way has to do with this 'traumatic freezing' I think -- by s5-6 when he seems unable to prevent himself from thawing, the result is increasing instability, anxiety he can't control, moral injury he can't ignore, and spiralling mental illness. So the 'freezing' of the earlier seasons served as protection even as it kept him more isolated from connecting to people. He's not really able to connect well even after he starts 'thawing' because by then he's feeling totally out of control.

Sorry that was a digression, I think.

Either way I don't think he holds back out of fear of misreading something; I think he's quite good at reading people and situations and that doesn't seem like something that wouldn't have been present pre-war.

I do think the way he treats sex as a transaction was most likely not the case before the war.

- Deep connection is unrelated to sex, and that he’ll always look for deep connection with someone over the sex. If both, ok wonderful, but if the sex makes the connection complicated he’ll ditch the sex and find that elsewhere. (I really think of Alfie in this space.)

Yeah I think this could work both pre- and post- war.

- Connection comes before physical/sexual attraction. People are physically neutral to him until he feels something for them first. For example, he couldn’t be seduced by a hot woman into a vulnerability in the way, say, Arthur or John probably could?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think of both Grace and Tatiana here. With Tatiana and no or limited connection, he pretty much flips her attempted seduction on its head and notwithstanding the essentially of them having ‘sex for the cause’, his sexual participation instead forges that double (is it triple by this point?) cross with her instead for their mutual benefit, rather than her sexual seduction exposing vulnerabilities in him for her people to exploit. With Grace, the connection comes well before the sex and it’s connection which exposes him/makes him vulnerable, not the sex.

Yeah. Any potential subtext about sexual trauma aside, I do think it can be difficult to untangle how he may have been prior to the war from how he was after -- it's such a profound impact on him, including on his sexuality and his ability to connect to people.

[coffeeatnight23]

@divinekangaroo it's Lizzie and Tommy!

It’s a het ship to YOU. To ME, they are both incredibly bisexual.

[divinekangaroo]

Was Tommy upset Lizzie left him? He tells Diana he is not.

Actually kind of fascinated by the thought of viewing PB believing that everything the characters say is true. They’re a bunch of situational liars as well as coming from positions of not everyone in-series having all the information.

So, Tommy telling Diana he’s not upset his wife left him. Here’s a few readings:

1) Tommy is outright lying.  As if he’d EVER tell the fascist upper class woman who cornered him into unwanted performative sex (remember immediately after he fell into a traumatic flashback?) whose partner also made him perform a Nazi salute (and please be aware that the Romani people across Europe experienced a holocaust too - this can be found easily on Wiki and various holocaust websites - this act cut him so deeply, remember the submachine gun scene following?) -- AND THEN broke up his marriage in a mirroring of the Nazi salute scene within (at most) one day after him having sex with Diana, as if he'd ever tell this woman who he KNOWS is mentally and morally and deliberately FUCKING with him: ‘yeah actually I’m super upset and sad.  Hope you won’t find a way to pour salt on that wound too.’

2) Tommy is telling a version of truth.  He’s not upset because he’s relieved that Lizzie will no longer have the burden of his death and the rest of this clusterfuck of what’s going on.  It’s over and done now, the pain’s as bad as it can get, and at least Lizzie doesn’t have to suffer the remaining painful things he’s going to have to do, like force himself to fuck Diana again, or kill himself, or be murdered, or declare himself publicly a fascist, or be publically discredited, or any one of a hundred compromising things that he believes he needs to do to stop Mosley, but that would hurt Lizzie more.

3) Tommy is telling both a truth (per the above) and a lie.  Tommy is upset Lizzie left him, notwithstanding any relief as well; Tommy never gave any indication he wanted her to leave him.  I’ve written about this before (https://www.tumblr.com/divinekangaroo/730179748259627008/tommy-says-sorry-to-lizzie-a-phenomenal-amount-of?source=share) In addition to everything at that post, the lameness of his attempt to talk to Lizzie after Diana’s dropped her bomb is telling in itself: this man had a whole crowd eating out of his hand during his speech at the start of S6.  This man speaks beautifully in parliament.  He is a master of oratory.  And yet, he can’t speak convincingly to his wife?  He couldn’t come up with some compelling position statement for her?  That’s because we see this repeated motif that he can speak when it’s not personal – it's policy, there’s distance, the Sergeant Major speaking to his men – but when it’s personal (Lizzie here, Michael in S5, Ruby’s death etc), he gets *so* upset he can’t speak, or when he does it's this faltering, broken sort of thing.

But – and I have seen this bouncing around tumblr - a reading that he wasn’t upset Lizzie left him because he thought Lizzie was a huge drag and now he could be free to fuck Diana because he enjoyed fucking Diana because it got one up over Mosley – I just.  *blinks, bewildered*

[sarasa-cat]

@divinekangaroo

Please tell me this is a real response in that quiz. If so, I need to bookmark it as a future time waster for treasure hunting little nuggets of gold within.

[coffeeatnight23]

@divinekangaroo

The “oh I could definitely write this fanfic in under 5000 words and it really wouldn’t take me that long” voice in your head is actually the devil speaking