#disagree with her if you want - but respect that her pov is philosophically sound and insightful

[mswyrr]

lucy gray baird's philosophy

I want to "yes, and" this great meta post by @burst-of-iridescent​. Specifically this part:

by the end of the book, coriolanus gives in fully to dr gaul’s way of thinking simply because it excuses him from accepting blame for his actions. if he killed sejanus, it’s because he had no choice. if he betrayed lucy gray, it’s because she would’ve betrayed him first. coriolanus refuses to believe in the goodness of humanity because that would have meant accepting the goodness that existed within him, and with that came the potential for making a different, better choice - potential that he knew, deep down, he had wasted. attributing his crimes to an innate evil that no one can overcome means that he can’t be held accountable, because it’s out of his control.

This got me thinking about how much Lucy Gray's worldview rejects of this way of thinking (and of a Calvinist*/ableist "some people are just born evil" pov people try to impose on the text, which people think is condemning him but actually... accidentally agrees with him that he was born evil and therefore can't help it??????). The book begins with several quotes chosen by the author, but I believe the one that represents Lucy Gray's worldview is Rousseau, who believed people were born with fundamental goodness.

Here's a source on him:

(Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

And here's the quote Collins opens with:

“Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains.” — Jean-Jacques Rousseau, The Social Contract, 1762

That's Lucy Gray's pov she's come to through living and reflecting as an artist; someone can disagree with it (of course, all of these questions are open for endless debate; they have been debated endlessly!) however, it's important to respect that is where she's coming from, not being foolish or naive. It is a worthy pov that should be respected, even if you disagree. And that she came to this pov through a hard life and from much thinking and she expresses it beautifully in her art.

Here's the key exchange from the book, after Coriolanus has taken on the idea that people are just awful and her articulating her philosophy in response:

(Ballad, 495)

She's not naive. She recognizes the nuance that Rousseau does, that society shapes us. And Panem is pretty clearly a society led by people applying all the pressures they can think of on people toward evil. (And, after his heel turn, Coriolanus' is going to innovate some new pressures...) Clearly there are situations and circumstances that form us before we have much say in it, but that's not the same as being born evil.

The difference between inherent goodness and a corrupt society is, for Lucy Gray, a lot of hard work. It's a struggle. This repudiates both the version of "born evil" Coriolanus himself takes on, which relieves him of responsibility, and the self-righteous, Calvinist and/or ableist pov people keep arguing for, which makes "normal" people feel like they can be sure they're good (and ignore how we are all complicit in evil to some degree or another) because they have a "good" normal brain or they were just born so pure as a soul predestined for heaven. No, for her, everyone has to do the work. To her it's everyone's "life's challenge to try and stay on the right side of that line."

Even more pointedly, the love song she wrote him before his betrayal, "Pure as the Driven Snow," articulates her philosophy in the opening lines:

(Ballad, 481)

Again, we have her personal focus on the work of "staying on the right side" of good and evil after being born good into evil circumstances. She knows it hurts; she's led a hard life herself. "It's rough as a bair" to do that work, it's "like walkin' through fire." But it is doable.

Lucy Gray meant it as a love song but IMO "Pure as the Driven Snow" ends up a lament for the boy Coriolanus was and her love that he betrayed when he betrayed himself. And it is a direct rejection of his excuses, it is inadvertently reading him for filth for the lies he tells himself that all the world is the Games arena, all people are selfish and bad, and he isn't to blame for what he's done because he just wants to come out on top/be the victor of this "natural" "war of all against all" that is Gaul's philosophy (related to the Hobbes quote Collins begins with; I wrote a meta on that here) that he adopts.

I see her demeaned as a foolish girl who just "like bad boys" and I get so frustrated. I also get frustrated by the view that she must not have ever been sincere in loving or trusting him because IF SHE WAS then she would be a fool and his betrayal would somehow be her fault. And she'd reject the idea that she's "good" just because she's so pure or that anyone can claim we're good without doing a lot of hard work.

(Ballad, 482)

She is so thoughtful and interesting as a character. And she didn't just "like bad boys" - Coriolanus showed only his good side to her until the very end, once he'd decided to kill that part of himself. She had no way of knowing. Sometimes you trust someone and they betray you, it doesn't make you wrong, the shame is all theirs.

*Strict Calvinist predestination is some people are just predetermined to be bound for heaven and some for hell, some people are just born good and others are born bad. A lot of people in fandom seem to love Calvinism idk why. The ableism bit of this should be self-evident: there is no such thing as a "bad" brain type completely incapable of morality or a "good" brain and neurodivergence is not the source of all evil!

[louiseblue1]

Gail Simone doesn't even watch Arrow and I am genuinely so confused as to why Arrow fans hate her so much. Arrow fans send her hate mail and spread weird lies (like she called them nazis) and it just seems so inexplicable. You seem to be in the Arrow fandom, can you maybe explain this? People being hateful trolls on the internet isn't unusual, but again this seems so inexplicable. It's almost surreal. Thanks in advance if you have any answers.

You’re possibly asking the wrong person, Nonnie. I have no idea as to who GS is, other than what the couple of comments about her has told me. I haven’t read any of her work to make up my own mind and am completely unaware of any feud between some Olicity people and her. I intentionally avoid that kind of thing because it’s hurtful, depressing and achieves exactly nothing other than more negativity. 

I don’t require everyone to be aboard with my shipping of Arrow. People having differing opinions to me - whether they’re based in fact or not - doesn’t invalidate my enjoyment of Arrow. I don’t seek out people with differing opinions to me and argue my point. I’ll give my POV if asked, but foisting my opinion upon others when it’s not solicited achieves exactly nothing, so why bother?

As for your question, you’re kind of making it sound like this focusing on a person by a fandom in a seemingly unreasonable and irrational/hateful manner is somehow specific to Arrow fans while admitting there are always hateful trolls on the internet. I wish I could tell you that this behaviour was only limited to certain elements of the Arrow fandom, that nowhere else on the internet that groups of people don’t latch onto someone else on the internet and amass there, being hateful and hurtful. But we both know it’s happening thousands of times in every minute of every day, be it centered around a TV show, politics, religion, sexuality, sport et al.

Why do people do that? 

It’s a complex question that doesn’t have a pat answer. Let me just qualify the next things that I’m going to say. These don’t apply to out and out violations of people’s rights. As in, if you see someone promoting pedophilia as a valid alternate life style, then you shouldn’t remain silent. Arguing with them online would seem to be a pointless endeavour, but it should be railed against and worked to be shut down. I’m more focusing on opinions about things no society will ever agree upon - like what constitutes a good story and yes, even politics, sexuality and religion. 

Trying to force your opinions of what you think the ‘right’ way is for any of those things onto others will never work. History has shown us that. With the explosion of social media, we suddenly have this forum to give our opinion and give it freely, often where it is not required. How many times have you read through YouTube comments after having watched a cute puppy video and seen it dissolve into name calling and hate on politics/religion/sexual preferences. 

Why do people do that? 

Why is there this burning need to give your opinion of every single thing, and then expect everyone to agree with you and rage against them if they don’t? If you’re a Republican and you go to a Democratic convention, it’s pretty much a given you’re going to hear things you don’t agree with. You must have been cognizant of that fact before buying a ticket. If you seek out others who are diametrically opposed to your way of thinking, then yes, you’re going to get upset, but you had to know that going in, so it’s not like you’re anyone’s victim here.

That’s how I look at this whole GS thing, whatever it is/was. GS has her opinions about Arrow. I haven’t read them, and I don’t care enough to google it and find out what they are for myself. All I know is she’s entitled to them. And people are entitled to disagree with her, but I see no point in people arguing with her. It’s her opinion, she owns it and that’s enough. Those people reading her articles have their opinions and they own it and that should be enough. For some people it isn’t though. And this is on both sides of the fence I’m talking about. Some people can’t accept that other people have different opinions to you and the world isn’t going to end. Yes, sometimes you might feel that those other opinions aren’t valid because it’s based on false information, or poor comprehension, but you being combative isn’t going to make anyone reconsider their position. It’s more likely to make them double down. So, knowing that, what’s your endgame in trying to enforce the validity of your opinion on others by being horrible? 

Again, this isn’t me taking sides in whatever the thing with GS was. Wasn’t there. Don’t have a horse in that race. I just know that people as a whole have a tendency to gang up on other people who don’t share their opinions and try and enforce them on others. Since the dawn of time. This isn’t a new thing. It’s just that social media documents it in real time for all to see. People don’t like being disagreed with because it makes them feel afraid or anxious or invalidated or frustrated or insecure or dismissed… and a lot of other emotions. It’s why the struggle for true diversity is still so real today. I’m not talking about who is right or wrong, I’m talking about the human response when presented with someone with a different POV about things. People are naturally threatened by other people who think/see things differently to them. And people, some people, sometimes, can react in negative ways. We’ve all done it. No one in this life gets out of this life without having negative reactions to someone we don’t agree with. 

I like to believe that as you mature, you become more accepting of the differences between people and choose to focus on the ways we’re the same, rather than how we’re different. That’s why I can’t hate on people who give their opinion on the internet if they disagree with me. Yes, we might disagree about this one thing, but there are so many other things we share - a desire to feel loved and safe, to be understood, to be appreciated and accepted for who we are, with no masks. Our fear of the unknown, of loss, of death. We all share these huge commonalities, and in the light of that, someone thinking that a TV show I like sucks seems like nothing to get worked up about. Certainly not enough to set out to cause distress to another human being over. To get combative over a TV show, over fictional characters and to intentionally try to inflict pain and anxiety on real people… well, that is never going to be something I will agree with or be involved with. It means you’ve lost perspective on what life is all about to me. 

Now, I’m sure I’ll get people responding to this and getting specific about ‘but they said this’ and ‘they accused us of that and it was all lies’, and I have no doubt that kind of stuff happened. I’m not being specific to one scenario of fandom life or just life in general. We can feel justified in our opinions and feel free to express them, but I always try and remember there is a real person on the other side of the conversation who deserves to be treated as such… and that has nothing to do with how they treat me. I don’t subscribe to the ‘he/she was mean to me, so I get to be mean to them’ way of thinking to excuse bad behaviour. That wasn’t how I was raised. Someone else’s poor behaviour doesn’t excuse my own. If I want respect and civility, then I should give it out, regardless of how I’m being treated. Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you. You can’t lose then. If you’re always respectful and polite, your opinion will always have more weight then someone being abusive and disrespectful. And you’re done the right thing, even if the other person never acknowledges it. Goodness is it’s own reward. 

Well, that got all big and philosophical, didn’t it, Nonnie? Sorry about that. lol 

Basically I protect my bubble. There will always be people out there in all walks of life who behave in ways I don’t want to be associated with, so I don’t. It’s that simple. I can’t control their behaviour, only my own. :)