#directly implies that transmisogyny is anti transmasc

[miraclemaya]

.

[reversetimelord]

The takeaway should absolutely be “this guy fucking sucks and shows that trans men can also perpetuate misogyny, transmisogyny and transphobia in general (he also displayed bigotry against transmascs whilst trying to present himself as One Of The Good Guys™️); it’s deeply important to fucking check yourself and not fall into bigotry against your own community as well as others”, not “transmen™️ are all like this, they don’t really experience oppression and transfemmes should stay away from them” as some people seem to be taking it (not OP, her advice is solid)

to the trans girls saying "this would work on me" about that trans guy's guide to fumbling a tgirl, please develop some more self respect, don't let yourself get used by guys like that

[transmascpetewentz]

i meant wrapped not trapped, I do not blame you for misunderstanding me, thats entirely my fault

I think you seem to believe that my issue with transandrophobia as a label is the idea that trans men face oppression (which they do), when instead its the idea that the oppression transmasculine people face is something completely unique to them, instead of being the underlying current of tranphobia

I literally spent the first paragraph explaining my issues with the *concept* of it before segawaying into my issue with it as a conterpart to transmisogyny due to them not sharing an underlying ideological framework

And to touch on some of doberbutts points, trans women are also correctively raped and have suicide rates, and the issue of access to abortion is for every person with a vagina, not just trans men

A frustrating thing that he does there is that instead of giving a counterargument to one of my points (what i personally believe to be a misnomer about the purpose of the label of transmisogyny, were you (nonspecific) view it as a threat to the validity of the trauma we face, and not as a way to describe their own, and what others believe to be just attention seeking) is to bring up severe (often sexual) trauma as a way to put a landmine on that specific point, because any attempt to explain why they are wrong becomes a personal attack on the traumatized parties

this got quite long, so response under the cut. @doberbutts this is the same anon you responded to (by reblogging my post) earlier.

ok

no form of violence experienced under an oppressive system is truly "unique" in that i don't think there are any experiences of violence or oppression that apply to only one specific group, but the motivations behind the violence can differ depending on the demographic it's being done to. i do not think that any specific example of transandrophobia is something that no one who isn't transmasc has experienced, but transandrophobia is the oppression specifically targeting transmascs. i and doberbutts have already pointed out how this works, so i don't feel the need to reiterate that.

you do not understand the concept of transandrophobia, and you regularly demonstrate that your understanding is surface-level and comes from people who have an interest in making it seem less credible. instead of asking people who theorize about anti-transmasculinity (including me and doberbutts!!!) you immediately become hostile and make many incorrect assumptions about our beliefs. i find this highly disrespectful and encourage you to stop getting all of your information about transandrophobia from people who misrepresent it to argue against the concept of anti-transmasculinity.

yes, abortion access is something that everyone who can get pregnant has to deal with, but trans men face unique discrimination wrt abortion access and access to reproductive healthcare that trans women do not. this is because there is a fundamental misogyny component to anti-transmasculinity that you and others who deny it because "it's transmisogynistic!!!" seem to have a failure to grasp. transandrophobia is transphobia, misogyny, homophobia, and the specific modifier of maleness on this oppression all at once. i wish there was a better word for how maleness adds to and modifies oppression in an intersectional way that wasn't associated with mras, but alas there is none that i am aware of. also: anti-transmasculinity never says or implies that trans women don't face some of the issues that trans men do! you are treating this like a pissing contest for who has it worse and that is an attitude i'll need you to drop.

denying transandrophobia is a sentiment that is directly hostile to transmasc survivors of sexual assault, abuse, hate crimes and other things that arise from living under a patriarchy that systemically excludes you from both the male and female classes. the reason why we use this rhetoric is because these types of things arise from the specific intersection that trans men face, and how that can further intersect with sexuality. you are simply making up what we believe on the spot and not actually listening. if you want to come off anon and have a conversation in dms, i'd be willing.

talking to people like you is frustrating because you make these claims about what transandrophobia theory is as if we're a monolith or a homogenous group instead of hundreds of trans men on tumblr dot com all contributing to a larger conversation. no matter how much you claim to be in good faith, you continue to disregard actual transandrophobia theory in favor of some bastardized version you got from someone with "white tme/tma" in their bio. i hope you take this criticism and reflect on how you may be wrong.

[butchsenshi]

i do not believe that transmascs do not face oppression but i take issue with the fact that transandrophobia / transmisandry is directly derived from transmisogyny , a word specifically meaning the intersection of transphobia and misogyny . ' transandrophobia ' implies that trans men are oppressed on the basis of being men . anti transmasculinity is a far more easily understandable + less muddled term . 👍

[ramenheim]

Wild that you didn't even check your posts before answering this, but okay. My /tone/ is not going to get nicer, so you'll just have to address the /actual content/ of my writing while ignoring the /rudeness/.

In teal you waffle between acknowledging that specific trans communities both deserve and do not deserve to talk about how the misogyny+transphobia of other ppl Uniquely Intersect to affect themselves— an experience that depends on the incongruence between how their body was perceived at birth (xfm) & how society(+the law) at large perceives their gender *now* [the categories being (cis/passing)Man ; (cis/passing)Woman ; & ThingThatIsWrong (any number of derogatory terms)]. Since only perisex cishet men are meant to wield patriarchal privilege within the hegemonic definition of a Real Man— categorically all trans+intersex ppl are excluded whether we consider it 'fair' or not (or whether we 'pass as men' or not). So there is no reason transmisogyny would exist as the only possible intersecting expression of transphobia to be 'worthy' of being discussed with a name, since all trans genders & intersex variations explicitly transgress against their Assigned Patriarchal Hierarchy and are punished in-line with what it decides You Should Be.

In yellow you literally did the exact thing you're saying "you never said". Trans men would not BE trans if they were not also men— the transphobia directly at trans men SPECIFICALLY hinges on their sexual anatomy being 'inferior' in the eyes of patriarchy & unworthy of Maleness, and therefore are all female interlopers + 'corruptors of the male category' (while also being male interlopers + 'traitors to the female cause'). Transandrophobia*(virilmisia/etc.) is still the intersection of misogyny+transphobia bc the ACTUAL WORLD WE LIVE IN overwhelmingly does not see eg.)Pregnant Men as Real Men & having queer & trans-friendly spaces chomping at the bit to find ~Males~ they can abuse 'for not being women (enough)' has routinely hurt every single trans person who did not Pass as 'feminine enough to be trustworthy' regardless of their gender. It is radfem poison & this site is steeped in it.

In red you expose that, no, you have NOT been keeping up with discussions of antiblackness & intersectionality; bc the antiblack racism that Black men experience is in fact held to be **specifically because they are men who are Black** & their specific experiences with racism can not be disentangled from their gender. Misogynoir (& transmisogynoir) were coined BECAUSE discussions of antiblack racism treated cis Black men's experience as the default 'Just Racism' (whether Black women experienced it or not) and the antiblackness that targeted black women *specifically* was being dismissed as Divisive (which was the exact same thing they heard from white feminists whenever they brought up misogyny that was uniquely directed at them) and not worthy of name or discussion (by EITHER group they *allegedly* had to support them— see: transmisogynoir needing to be coined in direct response to transfeminists doing white feminism 2.0).

The rest of your post is not better thought out or particularly compassionate to trans ppl's actual lived experiences irl, frankly. Saying "idk the ~implied~ etymological vibes are bad [bc you erroneously think you can seperate out the andro from the trans; by fundementally misunderstanding what an Intersection is] and also anyways it shouldn't even need a word to gather under [thereby silencing trans masc community discussions & contributing both to furthering transmasc erasure AND reinforcing the anti-feminist bias of treating 'male experiences' as the neutral default & not its own thing] what is this, oppression olympics?? [dismissing+trivializing discussions as just 'Divisive ID Politics' that are already covered under Other Bigotries]" is significantly more insidious than you realize; and I'm not greeting that mentality with ~kind platitudes~.

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TL;DR – ONLY PERISEX CISHET MEN ARE THE STRUCTURAL BENEFACTORS OF PATRIARCHY.

STOP PENALIZING TRANS PPL FOR THEIR ""PERCEIVED ADJACENCY TO MALENESS""/""PERCEIVED DISTANCE FROM FEMININITY""— NO ONE HERE BENEFITS FROM BEING TRANS ONCE IT'S KNOWN THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE.

* R E A D * BLACK GENDER THEORY *BEFORE* USING ITS TERMINOLOGY.

* THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT TRANSFEMINIST THEORY *

I'd like to remind you that "Man" should not be treated as the Default Human Identity— all men have an Intersectional identity inclusive of their gender; that they aren't women/etc. doesn't mean their gender doesn't factor into how oppression axes impact them.

You seem like you missed out on the Masculinities section of Intersectional Feminism— you should fix that before misinforming people on what intersectionality (as a tool for feminist analysis) is used for by claiming that Privileged Positions (white/cis/male/etc.) are somehow not their own "Intersectional Identities" bc they "aren't oppressed".

i very much don’t think that men are non-oppressed? i know that men are oppressed by the patriarchy, in ways that are subtle and often overlooked. men as a whole are oppressed on a societal scale, because the patriarchy oppresses all that are in it. men who are in some way marginalized— queer, non-white, neurodivergent, physically disabled, etc— will have to face this oppression in tandem with the other identity (or identities) for which they are marginalized. this is a fact, and not one i have ever tried to deny?

please don’t put words in my mouth like that. also, in the future, if you disagree with me on a subject, just say that and approach me in good faith. when you come into people’s inboxes with accusations like this (especially on anon), you’re just going to make them want to go on the defensive. i’m not one to get in online arguments, especially not over topics that i explicitly stated i dislike discussing, but being this aggressive with people isn’t going to get you far if you want them to actually hear what you have to say.

[kuromichad]

different subject that’s heavy on my mind rn but since i’m already being harsh let’s get into it. i wish it wasn’t automatically presumed to be some kind of truscum attitude when someone tries to express that different parts of The Trans Community have like, different needs and different risk levels and different experiences and that we have the ability to talk over each other, harm each other, etc... like when i put it that way people generally are like ‘of course that’s true!’ but is it ever really understood in practice? a number of people (not a large enough number, but still) are able to loosely understand ‘you can be trans and transphobic’ when it’s applied to the matter of transmisogyny but when a trans person tries to express distrust of or frustration with afab nb people due to how common it is that that category of person will, despite being trans/nb, espouse bioessentialist, anti-medical-transition, radfem-adjacent if not outright cryptoterf rhetoric, suddenly ‘trans people can be transphobic’ gets applied to... the person with a complaint about transphobia. 

because he’s clearly an evil truscum man! regardless of if the person making the complaint is a trans man or trans woman, oops, lol. he’s a bad person who is attacking and invalidating and totally hatecriming the heckin’ valid, equally at-risk transgender identity of “an afab woman who isn’t a woman except when she pointedly categorizes themself as a woman because being afab makes them a woman who is ‘politically aligned’ with women but she’s not an icky unwoke cis woman because they don’t like being forced into womanhood although Really When You Think About It 🤔 all women are dysphoric because obviously the pathologized medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria in transgender people is something that equally applies to cis women just default existing under patriarchy 🤔, and no, equating these things totally does not imply anything reductive about or add a bizarre moral dimension to the idea of being transgender, whaaaaat, this woman who isn’t a woman doesn’t think there’s anything immoral or cowardly or misogynist or delusional about being transgender, they would never say that because THEY’RE transgender, except when she feels it’s important (constantly) to make clear that she’s Still A Woman Deep Down Inherently Despite Not Identifying As One, and none of this ever has any effect on how they treat the concept, socially and politically, of people who actually wholly identify with (and possibly medically transition to) a gender different from the one they were assigned at birth, be it ‘the opposite gender’ or abstaining from binary gender altogether or ‘politically aligning’ with the ‘opposite’ gender from their asab. never ever!”

and like maybe that sounds like a completely absurd and hateful strawman to you! but in that case you’re either like, lucky, or optimistic, or ignorant. i’m literally not looking at random nb people and declaring that in My Truscum Opinion they’re ‘really a woman’ just because they’re not medically transitioning or meeting some arbitrary standard of mine. i am looking at self-identified afab nb people, who most often use she/they because, y’know, words mean things, especially pronouns, so people who are willingly ‘aligned with womanhood’ typically intentionally use she/her (sorry that i guess that’s another truscum take now!!! that pronouns mean things!!! the bigender transmasc who deliberately uses exclusively he/him wants it to invoke a perception he’s comfortable with!), who actively say the things listed above (in a non-sarcastic manner). 

like, the line between a person who says “i don’t claim to really not be my asab because i know no one would ever perceive me as anything else” because theyve internalized a defeatist attitude due to societal transphobia, and a person who says that because they... genuinely believe it’s impossible/ridiculous/an imposition to truly be transgender (in the traditional trans sense, beyond a vague nb disidentification with gender) and are actively contributing to the former person’s self loathing... is hard to define from a distance! i think plenty of people who are, in a sense, ‘tentative’ or like ‘playing close to home’ so to speak in their identity are ‘genuinely trans’ (whatever that may mean) and just going through a process. they might arrive at a different identity or might just eventually stop saying/believing defeatist stuff, who knows. but there are enough people saying it for the latter reason, or at least not caring if they sound that way, that it’s like, dangerous. it is actively incredibly harmful to other trans people. and it’s fucking ridiculous that it’s so difficult to criticize because you’ll always get the defense of “umm but i’m literally trans” and/or “well i’m just talking about ME, this doesn’t apply to other trans people” when it’s an attitude that very clearly seeps into their politics and the way they discuss gender.

because it’s just incredibly common for afab nb people (most typically those that go by she/they! since i’m aware that uh, i am also afab nb, but we clearly are extremely different, so that’s the best categorization i’ve got) to discuss gender in moralized terms, with the excuse of patriarchy/misogyny existing, which of course adds another difficult dimension to trying to criticize this because it gets the response of “don’t act like misandry is real” (it’s not, but being a dick still is) and “boohoo, let women complain about their oppressors” (this goes beyond ‘complaining’). a deliberate revocation of empathy/sympathy/compassion from men and projection of inherently malicious/brutish/cruel intent onto men (not solely in the justified generalizations ‘men suck/are dangerous’, but in specific interactions too) underpin a whole fucking lot of popular posts/discussions online, whether they’re political or casual/social, and it absolutely influences how people conceptualize and feel about transness. 

because ‘maleness is evil’ is still shitty politics even when you’ve slightly reframed it from the terf ‘trans women are evil because they’re Really Men and can never escape being horrific soulless brutes just as women can never escape being fragile morally superior flowers’ to the tumblr shethey “trans women who are out to me/unclockable are tolerable i guess because they’re women and women are good; anyone i personally presume to be a cis man, though, is still automatically evil, and saying trans men are Just As Bad is progressive of me, and it’s totally unrelated and apolitical that i think we should expand the concept of afab lesbianism so broadly that you can now be basically indistinguishable from trans men on literally every single level except for a declaration of ‘but i would never claim to be a man because i’m secure in the Innate Womanhood of the body i was born into, even as i medically alter that body because it causes me great gendered discomfort.’ none of this at all indicates that i feel there’s an immense moral/political gap between being an afab nb lesbian vs a straight trans man! it says nothing at all about my concept of ‘maleness’ and there’s no way this rhetoric bleeds into my perception of trans women and no way loudly talking about all this could keep trans people around me self-loathing and closeted, because i’m Literally Trans and Not A Terf!”

again, if that sounds like a hateful strawman, sorry but it’s not. i guess i’m supposed to be like ‘all of the many people ive seen saying these shitty things is an evil outlier who Doesn’t Count, and it’s not fair to the broad identity of afab shethey to not believe that every person who doesn’t outright say terfy enough things is a perfectly earnest valid accepting trans person who’s beyond criticism’ but like. this cannot be about broad validation. this can’t be about discarding all the bad apples as not really part of the group. we can’t be walking on eggshells to coddle what are essentially, in the end, Cis Feelings, because in the best cases this kind of rhetoric comes from naive people who are early and uncertain in their gender journey or whatever and are in the process of unraveling internalized transphobia, and in the easily observable worst cases these people are very literally redefining shit so that ‘actually all afab women are trans, spiritually, all afabs have dysphoria, we are all Equally oppressed by Males uh i mean cis men <3’ because, let’s be honest, they know that the moment they call themselves trans they get to say whatever they want about gender no matter how harmful it is to the rest of us. and those ideas spread like wildfire through the afab shethey “woman that’s not a woman” community that frankly greatly outnumbers other types of trans people online, because many of those people just do not have the experiences that lead you to really understand this shit and have to push back against concepts of gender that actively harm you as a trans person.

like that’s all i want to be able to say, is Things Are Different For Different Groups. and a willful ignorance of these differences leads to bad rhetoric controlling the overall discourse which gets people hurt. and even when concepts arise from it that seem positive and helpful and inclusive, in practice or in origin those ideas can still be upholding shit that gets other people hurt. like, i don’t doubt that many people are very straightforwardly happy and comfortable with an identity like ‘afab nb lesbian on testosterone’ and it would be ridiculous and hypocritical for me, ‘afab nb who wants to pass as a guy so he can comfortably wear skirts again,’ to act like that’s something that can’t or shouldn’t exist. it’s not about the identity itself, it’s about the politics that are popular within its community, and how the use of identities as moral labels with like, fucking pokemon type interactions for oppression effectiveness which directly informs the moral correctness of your every opinion and your very existence, is a shitty practice that gets people hurt and leads us to revoke empathy from each other.

like. sorry this is all over the place and long and probably still sounds evil because i haven’t thought through and disclaimered every single statement. but i’m like exhausted from living with this self-conscious guilt that maybe i’ve turned into a horrible evil truscum misogynist etc etc due to feeling upset by this seemingly inescapable approach to gender in lgbt/online circles that like, actively harms me, because when i vent with my friends all the stuff i’ve tried to explain here gets condensed down to referencing ‘she/theys’ as a category and that feels mean and generalizing and i genuinely dislike generalizations but the dread i feel about that category gets proven right way too often. it’s just like. this is not truscum this is not misgendering this is not misogyny. this is not about me decreeing that all transmascs have to be manly enough or dysphoric enough and all nbs have to be neatly agender and androgynous or something, i’m especially not saying that nb gender isn’t real lmao or even that it’s automatically wrong to partially identify with your asab; this is not me saying you can only medically transition for specific traditional reasons or that you don’t get a say on anything if you aren’t medically transitioning for whatever reason, now or ever. i just. want to be allowed to be frank about how... when there’s different experiences in a community we should like. acknowledge those differences and be willing to say that sometimes people don’t know what they’re talking about or that what they’re saying is harmful. without the primary concern being whether people will feel invalidated by being told so. because these are like, real issues, that are more important than politely including everyone, because that method is just getting vulnerable people drowned out constantly.

[catgirl-kaiju]

If I may explain:

The stance of anti-egg sentiment, is essentially that making egg jokes is a form of misgendering. The idea is that egg jokes, in their opinion, are assertions of knowing someone's gender better than they do and is thus inappropriate, especially in regards to strangers. This opposition is usually vocalized in cases where a transfem person makes an egg comment or joke about a cis man. The argument in this case, is that it is disrespectful of GNC men to imply that they might be trans.

Now, there are a few problems here if you know anything about how egg jokes work, and if you observe who is making these claims and who is being targeted for shaming.

Firstly, the supposition that egg jokes are an assertion of knowing someone else's gender better than they do themself is false. Egg jokes are about recognizing experiences and behaviors in others that mirror the behaviors and experiences of trans people when they did not yet realize they were trans or did not accept their trans status. This idea can also be applied to the experiences of GNC people, as well as other queer people, however it is most often applied to transgender experiences. There is also this undercurrent of accusations that trans people are trying to force gnc people to be trans by calling them an egg, and wow. Just... wow. Congrats on reinventing "grooming" with a thin veneer of performative progressivism.

In regards to GNC men (the subject of most of these objections), the objection that an egg joke is implying that they are a woman does not hold any real weight. It could just as easily be referring to nonbinary experiences, and the fact that detractors of egg jokes will insist on seeing eggs in such a binary way is telling. It is also telling that the target is often transfem people speaking about our experiences.

Now let's address who is doing this shaming and who they are doing it to. It seems to me to be a pattern of majority transmasc people targeting a majority transfem people. This is not to imply that there is anything wrong with being trans masc or in voicing concerns and feelings unique to transmasc people. I want make that perfectly clear, so as not to support a transmisandric view in my analysis here. The reason I point out that the perpetrators are often trans masc is give context.

The main argument here is that calling a gnc cis person an egg is the same as misgendering a transmasc person for being gnc, and it is therefore inappropriate. What these people are missing is that, while the experiences of gnc cis men and gnc transmasc people are similar, they are not the same. Trans experiences are different from cis experiences because of the different ways in which the world treats us and our different needs, that's just a fact. To say that gnc cis men are sensitive to egg jokes is a projection of the unique misgendering that gnc transmascs face and nothing more. It is incredibly reckless to assume that a stranger will have the same sensitivities as you and go directly to bat for an assumed and remote hypothetical based on your own personal sensitivities. And to go so far as to publicly shame and harass people based on an assumption is even more reckless and actively harmful.

Now, let's circle back to the fact that most of this shaming and harassment is targeted at transfem people. This is a pattern, I have seen it happen to so many transfem people on here and I have experienced it myself. This behavior is very transmisogynistic, whether intentional or not. I will not sit here and pretend that I don't see a pattern of transmasc people attacking their trans sisters on behalf of a half-baked assumption. You are not exempt from being transmisogynistic just because you are trans. If anything, you should know better.

The fact that these people are so willing to target us is a huge problem, and it's worth discussing because transmisogyny coming from within the trans community could lead to major divides in our community that we especially can't afford to have right now with the rise of transphobic policies and speech coming from our governments and our media. We need to be united in standing against this new wave of transphobia that threatens our safety, and especially the safety of trans women. Now is not the time to be picking fights over fucking egg jokes, and it's shameful that some of y'all don't see that.

So fucking tired of egg joke discourse

If you don't see how shaming and harassing transfem people for making egg jokes is connected to transmisogyny and the fucked up "groomer" shit that conservatives (including TERFs) push, then you really need to think harder about your attitudes towards trans women

And being trans yourself doesn't excuse you from being transmisogynistic, if anything you should know better