#dantayin theory

[leonawriter]

<Dante is me,> they say, feeling like it’s a little redundant to introduce themself when the person they’re talking to seems to already know who they are. Somehow. <I’m the Manager. It’s… nice to meet you?> “Of course you are,” came the instant response, with a touch of warmth to it that they could only call fondness. “You can all call me Hokma. It is, as you can see, my name.”

I wrote a mini Hokma/Dantayin fic (one-sided because Dante's amnesia)!

Nor Gloom of Night Shall Stay This Sentinel

[typha-latifolia]

coming out of my hole momentarily to post this bc i'm so tired of seeing arguments against the dantayin theory having nothing holding them up except "i don't want ayin to be dante" or "it doesn't fit what i think" like please. sometimes the truth is uncomfortable and we don't like it. i will take the haters seriously once they step up holding some cold hard objective facts in their hands instead of "that's what i want"

[leonawriter]

Assuming Dante really is Ayin, what do you think would happen if Dante regained Ayin's memories, and somehow both groups ended up wanting to exclusively have Dante/Ayin back with them while refusing to share, and now Dante would be forced to choose between staying with the Sinners vs the Sephirahs?

Well, I'm going to have to say that starting with that premise alone would give a foundation of bad faith in the characters of both groups.

What I think would happen (or that I would very much like to have happen) is something I've talked about a little in chat at times, which is that Dante themself is going to have a Canto of their own, which is either the result of or the cause of them remembering their past as Ayin.

This would be after all other Cantos- so, each one of the Sinners will go in knowing and understanding that this person is someone who not only helped them in their darkest moments and pulled them back up to their feet (helping them "stand up straight," har har) but also someone who is Just Like Them. And that they'll see Dante struggling the exact same ways they have.

Talking about the Sinners here, but none of them have a decided place to return to once the journey is done. I think that this is part of what makes them "Sinners" - if they simply went back "home," then they would be hunted down, persecuted, or arrested by any number of various groups.

This includes Dante [Ayin], and is also part of why I think that regardless whether they all try to stick together and make the "found family" idea that some of them (especially Heathcliff) have been putting forward into action, or if they drift apart and all find their own places in the City after the Company has finished having need of them and the journey is over, they'll still be inseparably tied together by their experiences. They're the ones that they can each turn to when shit goes south.

That said... let's focus on the Library, because I think that for one thing, Dante/Ayin would not, on regaining their memories, be certain that they had a place there. The Library has all of its floors. It has a full cohort. Ayin hurt each and every single person living there. Why would they want him to come back?

Which, funnily enough, ties into how none of the Sinners really want to come back to their own homes, either. Sinclair's home is a traumatic event for him. Heathcliff was abused in his. We're just about to see what's in store for Hong Lu, and it doesn't look good.

The Librarians, meanwhile, have had all of this time to gather information and (presumably) heal from both the events of Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina. The tables have turned. It's entirely likely that they'll want Ayin back, and he's going to be the one getting Realisations this time, one way or another. (My friend @strangefellows included something along those lines in one of her PM fics, do go check them out.)

So, at the end of this hypothetical scenario, we have an Ayin who is welcomed by both his old family and his new family.

That gives him TWO whole families... and when you talk about family, if they actually love and care about you they don't try and take you away from people who have helped you become. a better, stronger person, and supported you. They encourage those relationships.

So I can't help but feel that the Library is going to be where Ayin makes his home, but since he - unlike the other Librarians - isn't literally constructed of light now, and can move around the City, he won't just stay there without looking back.

My best end result for them all is that they effectively end up working together, or at least that the Sinners have the support of the Library from the moment they make contact onwards.

It'd be real cute if one of the ways that showed itself would be updated Announcers; the Librarians seeing and cringing at the recordings of their old Sephirot selves, and offering up new ones that are much more helpful.

Also, who doesn't want to see things like the Librarians and the Sinners getting along? Chesed and Hong Lu? Rodya and Netzach? The awkwardness between Hokma (instigator of the Smoke War) and Gregor and Outis? Don Quixote meeting both Roland and Gebura?

[leonawriter]

Y'all will literally say Dante is someone cool and awesome who can fight (which we know they CANNOT, they are a weakling who the others keep saying needs to be taught how to fight, and they could not defend themself even BEFORE losing their memories, with Don Quixote who also lost her memories still keeping her combat abilities) before you'll look at them and go "...that's Ayin, actually."

[leonawriter]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THNK YOU FOR THE HOKMA AND DANTE FANFIC! THE TWO ARE FINALLY REUNITED EVEN IF DANTE DOESN'T KNOW IT! DANTE FINALLY HAS A FELLOW PROSTHETIC USER ON THE BUS AND FINALLY HAS SOMEONE WHO THEY CAN BOND WITH OVER CLOCKS, THE SAPLING OF LIGHT ABILITY AND HOKMA'S SYMBOL, AND BEING UNABLE TO EAT! SO MANY THOUGHTS AND IDEAS OF THE TWO BONDING TOGETHER IN WAYS ONLY DANTE AND HOKMA CAN AAAHHHHHHHH! THANK YOUUUUUUUU!

!!!

First off NO THANK YOU FOR BEING EXCITED! This was a delight to wake up to :D!

Secondly you bring up so many points that I hadn't even thought of. The number of times I've read Limbus fics that point out that Dante can't eat, or heck, even in the game itself lines that point out the difference between them and the other Sinners because of the prosthetic meaning they're detached from things that the others can do.

I wanted to put some sort of reference to Dante recognising that Hokma is the same Hokma from their Sapling of Light ability, but couldn't find a place to put it - which is fine, because it's a short fic. Maybe it just happens later. Maybe the next time Dante needs to use it, and then they're like <Hang about....!> [cash register noise]

Hokma watching over their fights and being their in-person announcer who is very concerned about the Sinners not taking damage, because if they take damage then Dante is the one who gets to feel it.

This is Hokma having to go from "death means nothing in this place - I can bring someone back as though it's their first day and remove them just as easily" even though the employee still feels the pain, to "death is something that these people no longer truly fear because of it being temporary, and all of the pain gets felt by the person I never wanted to see suffer like that."

So the Sinners would get to see Hokma fussing over Dante, and Dante would get the strange feeling of someone fussing over them, and asking if they are all right.

[leonawriter]

How do you think Dante would react if they found out that they were Ayin, the CEO of Lobotomy Corporation, original owner of the Golden Boughs, writer of the Seed of Light Script, member of the Outskirts Research Team, and committer of many many war crimes?

And how do you think Ayin and his other selves would react if they the found out they lost their memories again, ended up gaining a clockhead prosthetic, gaining the power to bring somone back from tbe dead, and working under a company owned by Dias to collect the golden boughs and replace the now fallen Lobotomy Corporation?

Honestly? That's something I look forward to seeing played out, but... personally?

I think they won't react well. We've already seen that their impressions of Ayin (through the Walpurgis Nights) aren't good, and I see no reason to believe that they came away from meeting Hubert (owner of a Wing) with any trust or faith that he meant well, and Hong Lu's family own a Corporation...

But this is, as I've seen in a previous ask response, part of why I want Dante to have their own Fathoms of Ego. One that possibly exists either in the District 12 of fallen L Corp, or in the raided Outskirts lab itself. Where they and the Sinners are forcibly faced with the things that happened - and Dante can't look away.

As for Ayin's reaction to all of this?

Well, for one thing, I've headcanon'd that the clock head was Ayin's in the first place. Either something that Ayin made himself, or maybe even Ayin's own EGO, since the functions it has match up with what he would have been capable of in Lobotomy Corporation, and there are aspects that are reminiscent of YuRia's "Psychoment" which are (I think I'm getting this right), "EGO that can be used as tools."

For the rest... I honestly don't know yet. There's a theory I'm fond of that Dias could even be Outis, which would be fascinating if true, and would add more depth to their interactions. And if they are different people, then that's also a fascinating dynamic of "I [and Benjamin] once used you in order to get us what we needed, and now you are using me to get what you want."

There's also the fact that in spite of what we do know about Dias, we don't know her motivations, or what she's truly like outside of a few people who have been impacted negatively by her (Moses, Ezra, etc), so I'm keeping an open mind for whether she's better than she comes off as (which would be a good Outis angle) or worse.

Oh, and on the amnesia, if you look back at Selva Oscura, you'll see Dante stating that they "didn't expect it to happen this fast." So, they clearly were expecting it. I do think that they'll be rather frustrated about it all once they're able to remember everything, though XD

[leonawriter]

Saw some of Dante's near-distortion lines again. Y'know the ones, with the redacted parts and the full knowledge of EGO and how Peccatula are formed?

And got reminded of how very, very few people Dante could possibly be, if we factor in the way they know all this stuff.

Literally all things that we're shown that Lobotomy Corporation is the originator of, and told repeatedly through the lore that the lead researchers in the Corporation are the only ones who should know the details of their own Singularity.

The way that several people have said outright that Dante is someone important, which means they can't just be a minor unnamed character who was either never brought up before, or deemed unimportant by others in the past.

That literally ALL of the other researchers who would know this information about EGO and Peccatula (otherwise known as Ordeals) are currently stuck in place in the Library, in the Outskirts of the City.

All roads lead to Ayin. Everything starts with Ayin, and it will return to Ayin.