#condemns ‘targaryen customs’ only to wed her daughter to her son even younger than she was when otto dangled her before viserys

[watcherintheweyr]

desperately need people to understand that alicent is a victim but she’s also an abuser and a perpetrator

that she actively makes choices to harm other women because of jealousy and envy and the greed deep in her bones because submitting to suffering didn’t get her what those women fight to grasp for themselves.

she is absolutely a victim, in show.

that doesn’t change that she abused rhaenyra and her children, her own son, most likely helaena given how she flinches every time her mother touches her, and is actively weaponizing the patriarchy of westeros against other women- rhaenyra primarily, but also mysaria and dyana.

she isn’t the moral, righteous force of good that even she thinks she is, she’s a wounded woman directing all of the rot, pain, and fury inside her at the wrong people and forces.

[butterflies-dragons]

What do you think about that interview from 2014 (I think) where GRRM said "and nephews and aunts" to point out how incest is not weird for Targs? I did my research and only found Aemon and his half-aunt Jocelyn Baratheon marriage as an example of what he said. Do you think he was thinking about j*nerys when he said that or was it just an expression? Because when I first entered this fandom I saw some people calling it an "irrefutable proof" for aegony and I actually don't know what to think lol

Hello @softvniverse:

This is GRRM’s quote from the 2014 interview you mentioned. The interview was about The World of Ice and Fire:

"Targaryens were interlopers from another culture and they had some unique factors that didn't necessarily fit into the mainstream of the other Westerosi lords such as their traditional incest which was part of keeping the bloodlines pure so that they could better control dragons, brother marrying sister, and nephews and aunts, and so forth."

[Source]

GRRM has covered the subject in The World of Ice and Fire: 

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew; a boy, a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. "The blood of the dragon must remain pure," the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valryia before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.

This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. Incest was denounced as vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable.

It had long been the Valyrian custom to marry within the family, thus preserving the royal bloodlines. Yet this was not a custom native to Westeros, and was viewed as an abomination by the Faith. The Dragon and his sisters had been accepted without comment, and the issue had not arisen when Prince Aenys was wed in 22 AC to Alyssa Velaryon, the daughter of the king's master of ships and lord admiral; though she was a Targaryen upon her mother's side, this made her only a cousin. But when the tradition looked to continue yet again, matters came to a sudden head.

—The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I

And he repeat it almost word by word in Fire & Blood:

The tradition amongst the Targaryens had always been to marry kin to kin. Wedding brother to sister was thought to be ideal. Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew, a boy a cousin, aunt, or niece. This practice went back to Old Valyria, where it was common amongst many of the ancient families, particularly those who bred and rode dragons. The blood of the dragon must remain pure, the wisdom went. Some of the sorcerer princes also took more than one wife when it pleased them, though this was less common than incestuous marriage. In Valyria before the Doom, wise men wrote, a thousand gods were honored, but none were feared, so few dared to speak against these customs.

This was not true in Westeros, where the power of the Faith went unquestioned. The old gods were still worshipped in the North and the Drowned God in the Iron Islands, but in the rest of the realm there was a single god with seven faces, and his voice upon this earth was the High Septon of Oldtown. And the doctrines of the Faith, handed down through centuries from Andalos itself, condemned the Valyrian marriage customs as practiced by the Targaryens. Incest was denounced as a vile sin, whether between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister, and the fruits of such unions were considered abominations in the sight of gods and men. With hindsight, it can be seen that conflict between the Faith and House Targaryen was inevitable. Indeed, many amongst the Most Devout had expected the High Septon to speak out against Aegon and his sisters during the Conquest, and were most displeased when the Father of the Faithful instead counseled Lord Hightower against opposing the Dragon, and even blessed and anointed him at his second coronation.

—Fire & Blood

As you can see, the ideal Valyrian marriage was between brother and sister. Only Failing that, a girl might wed an uncle, a cousin, or a nephew, a boy a cousin, aunt, or niece.

And the reason behind that was to keep the bloodlines pure so that they could better control dragons.

Now, in Westeros, according to the Faith, the incest that was forbbiden was between father and daughter, mother and son, or brother and sister. For example:

Craster and his daughters (father & children)

Jaime and Cersei (brother & sister)

Marriages between cousins, uncle and niece or aunt and nephew are allowed in Westeros. For example:

Jonnel Stark and Sansa Stark (uncle & half niece)

Rickard Stark and Lyarra Stark (cousins)

Tywin Lannister and Joanna Lannister (cousins)

Jon Snow and Arya Stark from the so called “original outline” (cousins)

About Targaryen marriages, it is true that Aemon Targaryen married his half aunt Jocelyn Baratheon. There was also Maegor Targaryen that married her half brother Aenys’ daughter, Rhaena Targaryen, Rhaenyra Targaryen married her father’s younger brother, Daemon Targaryen. Daemon’s second wife was also his niece, Laena Velaryon, granddaughter of Aemon and Jocelyn.    

Do I think GRRM was thinking about j*nerys when he said that or was it just an expression? 

I don’t think he was thinking about Jon and his aunt as a couple.  Daenerys already controls 3 dragons and that’s because she is the daughter of a brother and sister marriage (Aerys II and Rhaella), and Dany’s parents were the children of a brother and sister marriage as well (Jaehaerys II and Shaera).  

So about "irrefutable proof" for aegony... Nope.

The marriage of aunt and nephew was not taboo for Valyrians and it was also allowed in Westeros. Happened between Targaryens, happened between Starks. If Jon and his aunt decided to get married there would be no problem with religion or morals, maybe some opposition for political or historical reasons since Targaryen are not loved in the North, they remember about Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna.

That’s why Jon discovering he banged his aunt and be repulsed about it, had no sense in the Show. Not even that comment about Jon being a religious guy and rejecting his aunt because of that. There was already an uncle/half niece marriage in House Stark. GRRM originally planed a pseudo incest angsty romance between Starks, brother and sister, that later discover they were cousins and free to love each other. While the Show gave us some kind of unwilling incest with a made up angst that lacked chemistry.

I expect something better and that makes sense from the Books.       

Thanks for your message.