#condemned for their actions they also can't help but still love them so deeply in the roots of their soul that they could never imagine

[artimesaxx]

The "find me at the end of days" trope. The villain in love with the hero, who had just conquered the world yet showed mercy on their nemesis out of the wicked love they hold for them trope. The hero who had failed to save the world, to kill their enemy, to doom their lover, to murder their soulmate trope. The villain, who cups the hero's cheeks, gazes into their eyes and breathes for them to turn away, to flee, to not look back... Yet promises to find and return to them trope. The hero, who runs away from their lover, hopeless, hurt, yet not any less enamoured by them trope. The untouched, ever shining light, engulfed by the darkness surrounding it, resistant to it's call, yet forced to give in while longing deep down to never be freed from it's grasp ever again trope. The love which existence is forbidden, deemed unnatural, yet could not be avoided, could not be anymore true trope. The toxic, painful, star crossed lovers trope.

[r--kt]

Good boy Tobi. Why is he acting this way?

"oh yeah, it was just Zetsu" a-ha, not even close. here I'll talk specifically why Obito resorts to roleplay, and why he is comfortable with the images of Madara and Tobi. (obviously because it's not being himself but let's dig deeper)

contents | responsibility · regrets · a sense of control · conclusions

Vol. 31 CH. 280. Tobi's first appearance.

sure this looks like another defense mechanism that allows Obito to avoid reality, especially when interacting with people. full coverage, imitation of someone else's voice, name change, personality change etc. his clothes literally look like armor, and I'd like to think that hiding and protecting himself "just because it feels right" is exactly the point (no need in armor, he's intangible, so that's a psyche). the very way he completely depersonalizes himself shows that on a subconscious level he is not comfortable being in the conditions he finds himself. this alone may indicate that he is not very happy with his position of a faceless world saviour. and this is his first damn appearance.

Tobi is another manifestation of Obito's escapism, which is the central theme of his story. I have identified three advantages of using Tobi's image for Obito, and all of them will be described below. maybe you'll find some more, feel free to reblog and add your thoughts!

Responsibility

escapism is just stress-relieving. for him, the roleplay was a way to relieve tension from the responsibility that he had imposed on himself. "no one in the whole world can do it except me" must be really exhausting. so what if I just don't be myself for a while? what if I be the one who can make a mistake? it's important to be frivolous and let things go sometimes, otherwise the psyche will be disturbed even more. so, that's the first advantage, that allowed Obito not to go completely crazy.

Regrets

CH. 652

as I said, Obito is not very happy with his position. even though he believes that tsukuyomi plan is correct, this doesn't negate that he is unhappy to fulfill it and suffer the hardships because of it.

during the war, we can see that Obito really regrets that he hadn't live his life the way he could, with his friends and dear ones. he began to ask questions: "could I have a better life?" "who have I become?" "who does my friend see me as?" these feelings burst out only at the culmination, before that they were deeply suppressed, with the help of detachment from reality, which Obito achieved mostly thanks to the image of Tobi. a ridiculous stupid guy who talks nonsense and does not pretend to be any role other than a comic relief. another personality allows Obito to distract himself from the real problems, which he can't reconcile.

CH. 281 idk what an idiot. love him.

in order to avoid all these dangerous thoughts for as long as possible, he came to this escapist behavior. it is not only a convenient tool for manipulation (I'm not really touching on that in this post, though it's important too), but it also distracted him from all his regrets. though, it's funny that he still chose orange and purple colors that probably reminded him of the past.

A Sense of Control

it seems to me that this is the most important reason to pretend to be either an inept, complaisant fool or a legend of the Shinobi world. why these two extremes?

many events in Obito's life showed him that no matter how he acts, he will still be punished, which means he personally has no control over anything. during the exposition, he is late helping the old ladies, but Kakashi condemns him no matter what. during the first turning points, he commits morally correct actions in order to end up first being mutilated and isolated, and then lose the most precious (and only) thing he really had: friendship with Rin and Kakashi. in the end, he does not even have control over his own body until he learns to control the mokuton and gets used to the constantly breaking off or deforming limbs. Madara and Tobi appear as other personalities who are able to achieve control under certain conditions and give Obito the necessary mental stability.

CH. 460

Madara is the epitome of control. the ghost of the Uchiha clan, the fear of which is alive many years after his death. by taking on a character who has more control than Obito did in real life he might feel quite cathartic and empowering, and it offered him a sense of emotional security (the mask helps with it physically, the personality and famous name — mentally).

while Tobi, besides an attempt to make up for lost childhood, is a demonstration of "the lowest standards" so that for once in his life, he did feel that he always met expectations, that more was not required of him. he's incompetent, he messes up, he's irritating, and therefore others don't expect anything else from him. yes, Tobi is judged and punished, but Tobi is not trying to be praised, so his own expectations are not broken.

CH. 359

Madara's personality is convenient because it's dominant, it controls others, inspires them with a certain fear and submission. Tobi's personality is convenient because with its help Obito choose to show fear and submission himself whenever he wants, that is, it does not become an unexpected blow for him. I would add that similar mental mechanisms work in many types of traumatic experience (not talking about his sexual deviations like moderate sadomasochism yet, the man is clearly traumatized).

does it all work? obviously, yes. there's no point in explaining that this whole Madara thing worked perfectly. Tobi, although condemned by Deidara, is at the same time accepted and encouraged by him a bit, simply because it is pointless to expect anything from him. however, this works as long as the fictional personalities do not overlap, as long as others believe in the reality of both.

CH. 396

another interesting topic is that Obito himself began to mix these personalities and demonstrate the falsity of one, which deprived him of the very opportunity to avoid reality (Madara clearly reminds him more of the responsibility on his shoulders than Tobi) and relieve the constantly increasing stress. therefore, starting from the moment when "Madara" shows that "Tobi" was just a cover, Obito loses the advantages of Tobi's image, suppressed regrets gradually surface, stress accumulates, the sense of control disappears for lack of any new personality other than his own (which has problems with control). and all these consequences falls on him during the war.

Conclusions

the reasons for this defense strategy appeared in Obito due to his low self-esteem, which was facilitated by the following. the early death of Obito's parents was most likely at the age when he was too young, and therefore psychologically this loss was fixed as "I was left because something was wrong with me. I can't be loved naturally, I need to deserve it first". because of that there was a constant attempt to be better, to reach the level of a genius opponent, who not only shows with all his appearance that you are not enough, but also constantly pokes you in your own shit like a puppy. and that's not the only situation where you're not that good. there's a lot, actually.

such an environment forms an attitude "to get recognition, I need to try harder than anyone else, because something is wrong with me". subsequently, this attitude is transformed into a new one: "I cannot get recognition in any case, which means I will achieve recognition, respect, attention through pretending and forming other personalities". and that's how Tobi appeared.

I don't even know what to add at the end. it's just great that you can see the depth in Obito, even when he's acting like a moron. here's some admiration for this silly guy

[zeciex]

Everyone's begging you not to kill baby Rhaegar; meanwhile I'm sitting here perfectly fine and kind of looking forward to a (fictional) baby's death. I get it. It's a way to move the characters forward in their development. Aemond will finally see war for what it really is and no longer idealize it, and Daenara will finally really examine her and Daemon's relationship and the way he treated her vs the other kids. There are moments when she's asked herself if Daemon would have asked this much of the other Black kids, but it's brief and then she snaps back to what she's currently doing. The murder of her son on Daemon's orders will not allow her to just gloss over it anymore; she'll be forced to confront it.

So, for those reasons, I'm looking forward to your version of B&C. I would like it noted here and now that I do not condemn real life children murder. This is a fictional world, not reality.

Also, unless its another accidental pregnancy, I can't believe they would risk having more children with what happened to their first with Daemon still out there. Will he be dead by the time they try again? That's the only way I'd feel safe bringing another kid into the world.

I know that the reason why people are already up in their feels about the baby dying is because they don't want Aemond and Daenera to suffer, and it's a great compliment as a writer to get that sort of reaction.

But alas, the baby was doomed from the beginning. And you're totally right; Aemond will be faced with the consequences of his actions and feel just how terrible war can be, however, the idealization of war is really tightly ingrained in him and we'll see where some of that rage we see in the show come from. He will be so angry at everything and everyone--but beneath that there's this guilt. And I think he'd seek out the war more vehemently simply because of that rage and guilt.

And then we have Daenera; She'll for sure have to confront the relationship she has with Daemon. I think a part of her will always hold that... idolization of Daemon; that search for his approval--but she'll also have to face the disillusionment of that idolization, face what is beneath it. Because Daemon did this, he killed her son and how could she ever forgive him? How could she ever see him as anything but her son's murderer? She'll hate him, she'll be angry and she will finally break way from that need to sacrifice herself for his ambition. And to some extent, the loss of her son will also sully any relationship she has with her mother and siblings--she'll still love them, deeply, I don't think she'll ever lose that, but the relationships will forever strain under the weight of that loss. And it doesn't help that she loves Aemond, the man who murdered her brother. That will also strain her relationships.

Yes! I did not actually think you did not condemn real life child murder lol Like, if this was real life we'd condemn Aemond more for what he did and we'd condemn Daenera for the adultery because there's never a good reason to cheat. But this is fiction and we're allowed to have fun with it.

I haven't decided WHEN exactly she gets pregnant again, but it's likely around the time of the god's eye battle. I've been thinking of having her pregnant when the gods eye happen.

[watcherintheweyr]

Lucien couldve been a moral check but instead the author decided to have feyre and Rhys demean, belittle, and mock him, his abuse and trauma, completely ignore everything he's ever done to help them, and the author... glorifies them doing it. They are never ever held accountable or face repercussions for how they abuse the people around them and its exhausting to read.

Hell, Eris could be the moral check because he is **everything Rhysand thinks that he is.** he's the heir to a massively powerful court who has to play act as a villain to protect the ones he loves, and even those he doesn't from the monster that is his sire. But beneath that he is constantly scheming and acting and plotting to help those around him- subjects and family both, and genuinely cares for the fate of Prythian. But the IC is literally obsessed with hating him. They LIKE hating him, so they'll ignore all the truths of his nature- even the ones they're slapped in the face with- because it doesn't fit their self righteous superiority complexes.

NESTA should have been a major moral reality check. Despite her prickly nature, she cares deeply- so, so deeply, and not only for herself and not even only for her family. But instead they literally battered and exhausted and isolated her until she broke down and became compliant to what they wanted, which the narrative then praises.

Rhys 'plays' as the villain- and has in fact committed monstrous acts as the 'mask'- but he's eternally defended and given a pass because of his trauma. Any time someone tries to hold him accountable for his actions he either has a panic attack, belittles them, threatens them, or flat ignores them, and everyone around him trips over themselves to defend him and his ego. He exhibits sexism, he exhibits major controlling and egocentric traits and they're all excused. He literally commits several of the exact same acts Tamlin is demonized for- and he's praised for them by the narrative.

Sjmess preens so proudly that he's morally grey, an antihero with a heart of gold- but that isn't the case. And any character who sees through that, like Nesta, like Lucien- is broken down and gaslit into seeing themselves as a problem, and then basically just letting themselves be used as tools for him and his inner circle.

He cares SO MUCH about Velaris, but he and Feyre are building a fifth home while there's slums in Velaris. He cares SO MUCH about equality for the Illyrian women and better conditions for the mistreated children but makes a million excuses for why he can't enforce his own laws or act to prevent atrocities he is fully aware are happening. He knows that Keir is a monster but lets him live and have control over the Hewn City- punishing everyone trapped there for the actions of those in power. Night Court citizens who have lived and died all without ever seeing the night sky.

His entire inner circle is actively horrible, immature, petty people who only care for sex and drinking and appearances (but then judge and condemn others for doing the same things) and yet they're 'the most powerful' they're 'the dreamers'. The narrative does nothing but stroke and prime and praise their choices and their egos and excuse the horrors they commit. Ever since Feyre truly became one of them, she's spiraled down a worse and worse path, becoming a person that ACOTAR Feyre would be disgusted by- and even despite all of that and the truth of it, despite being the fucking 'High Lady' she only truly has power if Rhys decides she does, if Rhys agrees with her. And with all of that, she is also still and ever a victim of the inner circle and their control, manipulations, and disrespect.

It's so disappointing. The whole world and series had so much fucking potential. So many of the characters have **so much potential.** but it's squandered.

I don’t think people get it. There is nothing wrong with liking something in fiction that you would normally despise in real life. That is not my problem with Rhysand and the Inner Circle. My problem is when an author writes a story in a way that clearly shows they agree with these characters. I love a little freak as much as the next person, but not when you’re trying to convince me every two seconds they’re the good guy while they’re simultaneously doing bad shit. And yes it’s first person POV, so of course Feyre will think she’s right. This is why there needs to be a moral check. Suzanne Collins did this really well with The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes. Even without the existence of the OG series, you can tell the author/narrative does not agree with Coryo even though he thinks he’s right because Sejanus acted as a moral check, someone to challenge the MC’s view. Lucien could’ve been a moral check for Feyre. He so damn nearly was when he said “The girl I knew died under the Mountain.” BUT SJM DIDN’T COMMIT TO IT. Feylin could’ve been the tragic romance, Feysand the villain story. BUT SJM DIDN’T COMMIT TO IT. So instead, we have a half-baked hero who SJM clearly believes is in the right and not only is that poor writing but it reflects her irl beliefs. The way you think is reflected in the way you write. This series is targeted at impressionable teens when it’s clearly dark romance and I see people defending Rhysand and shitting on Tamlin and calling Rhys the hero. It’s ridiculous.

[technitango]

saw some interesting thoughts in the tag recently about yohan's driving force for revenge and had to write this up because it's the devil judge and i cant not think about it non stop. spoilers below. (also personal opinions. i respect others takes and love to read them. i also can't resist word dumping about the devil judge so alas).

i think something crucial to understand about yohan as a character is that he does have a sense of justice, but his sense of justice is far removed from a standard definition. he also strays from what society would typically consider an upright, just character. he is a morally grey character but this doesn't mean that he feels apathetic toward what could be considered more typical injustice. multiple times throughout the show we are shown that yohan feels a certain level of righteous anger toward injustices others face. this is especially strong when it comes to those he holds closest.

ive seen questioned wether yohan really had enough reason to exact revenge upon those he did in the drama, considering the reveal that elijah was the one who accidentally caused the fire that killed her parents. deeply and truly, for yohan's character, he had every reason.

based on the events that went down during and after the fire yohan holds the people in power accountable and condemns them. this has nothing to do with them starting the fire (since they did not) and everything to do with their selfish actions during the fire and even after the fire.

yohan holds particular contempt for people in power who are selfish and greedy. while the church is on fire he sees firsthand how all these powerful people, claiming to be compassionate, are nothing more than two faced cowards out to save their own skin. they push and shove each other. minister cha literally climbs over elijah and crushes her legs. not once did someone think to turn around, to try to help any who were perhaps struggling.

to really put the nail in the coffin, so to speak, not too long after the fire they visit yohan in the hospital with the very obvious attempt to make sure they still are getting the donation money. they act like they empathize with yohans pain, however their actions are full of hypocrisy. at this point it is painfully obvious to yohan that these people were always going to use the donation money for selfish reasons, and never to help those in need like they so claimed.

they show a perfect example of "the self pity of the powerful." yohan obviously feels strongly about this. he is filled with hatred and grief, burdened by a traumatic event where he lost the literal light of his life, his world, isaac. he channels this hatred and trauma toward those his individual sense of justice deems most guilty.

i don't think yohan particularly cares if these people wouldn't be considered directly guilty for the fire based on societies standards. yohan has passed judgement on them. and maybe this judgment doesn't even have anything to do with justice, necessarily, in his mind, but everything to do with taking from them as much as yohan has lost. and what better way to go about that than to dismantle and destroy the corrupt system itself that these people have helped create and perpetuate?

yohan could never direct guilt onto elijah. she and isaac are at the center of everything for him. he would rather have all that guilt and anger directed at himself. unlike minister cha, the president, and those like them, who would gladly sacrifice others to save themselves, yohan would willingly be the sacrifice for the ones he loves.

(something something yohan as a symbolic jesus figure. the caucus comparative to the pharisees and they representatives of a corrupt system of power etc. religious symbolism my beloved).

[arisha]

To some extent, I agree that Grace was Tommy's dream. A dream of the bright, the best, a dream that he never achieved, although they were close, and later even married.

Tommy is a ruthless gangster, He can be a complete scoundrel and he is capable of terrible violence. But Tommy is too complicated to be unambiguously characterized by labeling him a "scoundrel." He can really be selfless, he can take care of another person who is not his family. And he is also capable of loving, and loving deeply and unconditionally.

It all depends on the woman next to him. A woman in whom he saw someone equal to himself, whom he chose himself. The one who awakened the best in him, and for whom he was ready to change himself. And that woman for him was Grace.

To some extent, Grace was an alluring star for Tommy, a motivator to move on. They may be from completely different worlds, but for all the possible difference, they are very similar. Unlike any other woman, she is able to help him with advice and action, and at the same time, fight back.

Grace knew perfectly well who Tommy was, knew who was in front of her. At the same time, she is not afraid to talk to him, or look at him in a way that is not necessary. She was in no hurry to follow his orders, because she likes to be asked correctly. And she did not try to remake him, did not drag him to the conventional light. Grace accepted both the good and the bad in Tommy simply because she herself is far from a "good girl."

Therefore, Grace was and remains the woman he always chose. Thanks to the meeting with Grace, Tommy begins to thaw. He understands that he can be loved too, even if he considers himself broken. The only time Tommy had any semblance of happiness and hope that he could have a normal life was when Grace was with him. And with whom he finally found a sense of peace.

But, according to the creators of the series, Tommy cannot have a "happily ever after". And this is logical. Anyway, Tommy is a gangster, with all the consequences that follow. And for all the terrible things, sooner or later, still have to answer. That's why Thomas Shelby "can't be happy."

And the fact that Tommy was eventually left with Lizzie carried, in fact, the same idea. Not because Lizzie was bad in her own right. Just because Lizzie was never the right woman for Tommy. In fact, Tommy and Lizzie were just incompatible, and all they have in common is a child.

How else can you make a man's life as uncomfortable as possible, so that even in his own home he does not feel comfortable? To pair him with a completely unsuitable woman for him.

They have nothing in common, except for the place they grew up in and the fact that they are both on the “wrong” side of the law. Although the common thing may be that they are both very negative and very toxic people.

It was a very toxic relationship on both sides. They treat each other equally badly. They bring out the worst in each other, do not hear and do not understand each other. Lizzie had never really understood Tommy or his war trauma. She condemned him and blamed him for everything. In fact, the only time Lizzie gets close to Tommy is when they have sex. But even the sex between them is very fast and rough.

As a result, we can say that Lizzie really became Tommy's reality. But, the harsh reality. Lizzie is not the woman he really wanted to be with, his heart did not choose her.

Tommy dreamed of something else, he planned and wished for a life with Grace, but what does he have? The realization that there is no other choice but to be married to someone else, because it is "right". For the sake of the child. To live with someone with whom he has no emotional connection, with someone whom deep down he sees as a prostitute.

Looking at his complete and gradual destruction, and Tommy's line was conducted in such a way that his mental, physical and emotional state became worse and worse with each passing year, it was so sad that he moved from happiness to great sadness and loneliness.

I saw a comment from a Lizzie fan saying that Grace represents a fantasy to Tommy and Lizzie is his reality and what he needs. And I think the show shows something similar to that, and very clearly.

Grace is not fantasy, but hope and happiness for Tommy, hope that maybe he can have the life he wants so much and be happy. But he doesn't deserve to be happy, so life took it out of him and gave him reality, the reality that Tommy deserves, unhappiness, and it is represented by Lizzie. Not for her herself, but for the life he has with her. He has a life with a woman who does not give him peace or happiness, he cannot sleep with her, and his life feels empty. He needs to be with other women, he prefers to go to another country, and when he feels most alone, the only thing that helps him is taking opium so he can see Grace, see her, hear her voice, that's the only thing that really gives him peace.

And they represent it very well, life with Grace, he couldn't stop laughing, he always wanted to be in the house, it was his safe place, his paradise, he took time to be able to be with Grace and Charlie,.spent time together .They had conversations together, they joked, they were affectionate.

Life with Lizzie, he never smiled, he was always working, outside the house, when he returned home it was all darkness and sadness, he didn't spend time with her, they didn't have conversations, they were never affectionate, it was always dramas, complaints, crying, screaming, he was drunk and depressed, in S6, simply depressed.

And the show itself represented them well, Grace is represented by the white swan and Lizzie is represented by the black swan, clearer than that impossible..

Grace is light here.

Lizzie is dark and black swan in her jacket.

Thoughts? @camewiththeframe @tommyxgrace-always @peakyv @lady-of-the-english @mary-fantg @daisybrekker