#certainly doesn't make dealing with the reality of misogyny any EASIER

[musical-chick-13]

Well...it's been a good run for...every ship left involving a woman in this poll. o7

[olenoidedserratuspilled]

That's a neat wall of text I guess. Doesn't actually relate to anything I actually said, though. I never said that calling men demons matters in and of itself, neither did I say that men are marginalized for being men.

What I did say is that TERFs like to use man-hating as a rhetorical trojan horse to push their own genuinely bigoted views, and that as such spreading man-hating rhetoric makes it easier for them to do just that. You're not going to read it, and I'm expecting you to block me after this, but I'll explain my point under the cut:

TERFs want you to believe they're defined by hating men, but in reality they are defined by hating women: trans women.

What TERFs want you to believe or not has nothing to do with what I said. What I did say is that the claim that "TERFs love men", cis or otherwise, is absurd to anyone who's actually seen TERF rhetoric in action.

I think a lot of people see TERFs calling trans women men and using their bioessentialist rhetoric about "males" and assume that TERFs hate trans women for the (in their eyes) crime of being men. The problem with that is that it's too rational.

Is it, though? Even if you agree that "All men are bad" is rational, the stance of "Trans women are men" isn't, and TERFs do very much believe trans women are men. That's where their irrationality begins, even if it isn't where it ends.

Bigotry is not logical. TERFs don't aggressively misgender trans women because they think being a man is the worst possible thing to be, they do it because they know how hurtful it is to trans women. The cruelty is the point.

The point is that they believe trans women are men, and they view aggressively misgendering trans women as correcting a slight against themselves personally and/or womankind at large. The cruelty may be the point, but they do very much justify that cruelty to themselves by rationalizing that trans women are both A) men and B) an especially evil, insidious and sexually deviant kind of man.

Despite their rhetoric, TERFs often pal around with cis men.

Cis white wealthy men, yes. I.E. the ones that help them gain political capital. They certainly don't pal around with any cis men that don't provide them with any political gain.

They'll post men are demons, but how often do they harass and threaten cis men the way they do to trans women? Men are powerful and threatening, trans women are a vulnerable minority and (as a class) powerless in society.

Notice how I never said TERFs harass and threaten cis men the way they do to trans women, or that trans women weren't especially targeted by TERFs. Again, what I said is that the notion that TERFs somehow "like" men is absurd, and that TERFs use man-hating to either justify their actual bigotry or make it look more palatable.

You've provided several examples of TERFs being racist and Islamophobic.

Yes, they are also examples of TERFs using man-hating rhetoric to justify why their racism and islamophobia are acceptable. The very thing that I am pointing out is happening.

It has nothing to do with hating men and everything to do with racism.

The specific examples I provided do have somethign to do with hating men because it's being used as a cover for why the racism is justified. The TERFs I showed are very deliberately going "Well I don't hate them because they're black/muslim, I hate them because they're men! (Just ignore the part where I say white men aren't as bad". Why did I provide these screenshots? Two reasons: 1) to show how the statement that TERFs "like" men is nonsense and 2) to showcase how TERFs like to use men-hating to make their actual bigotry look justified.

When you qualify every statement about misogyny with white men, how do you think that feels to women of color who are dealing with misogyny in their own communities? Marginalized men uphold misogyny, because they are men.

Cool, show me where I said you should qualify every statement about misogyny with white men. Show me where I said marginalized men don't uphold misogyny. What I did say is that TERFs have a habit of singling out POC/marginalized men (because again, the man-hating is a cover for their legitimate bigotry) and have no issue with making scathingly bigoted statements as long as they attach the word "men" to it.

The more popular view among progressives these days, however, and particularly on Tumblr, is that hating your oppressor is justified and should not be policed. Except when it comes to men.

In the US and the rest of the anglosphere, maybe. Where I live? The man-hating is very much still part and parcel of it, even if we don't have as much of a TERF problem. I also still see plenty of man-haing on Tumblr, too. None of that is to say that man-hating is an important issue of some sort, merely to say that the popular view among progresssives in my experience is still that man-hating is okay. If your experience is different then good for you I guess.

Talking about trans men the way you talk about cis men is perfectly fine, because they are both men.

Is the "Bomb that kills all Transmascs" post perfectly fine? Are the people receiving anon hate (up to and including rape threats - oh, I'm sorry, "forcefem jokes") perfectly fine? Is harassing transmen and calling them slurs perfectly fine? None of these are hypothetical. They're all actually happening right now as we speak.

Yes, trans men are men, and I am not opposed to the notion that trans men can participate in misogyny. But I'm certain you can understand how believing they're deserving of the same hatred that cis men deserve isn't just wrong, it's dangerous to trans men.

"Talking about men of color the way you talk about white men" is a rhetorical trap."

Yes it is. A rhetorical trap that TERFs use to make their racism look justified. The thing that I said they do and showed evidence of them doing.

If, however, you simply say "men are the devil" and don't specify race, you are "talking about men of color the way you talk about white men" because you are talking about all men the same way and only their gender (and, really, their role in the patriarchy) is relevant.

Except that is'nt what TERFs are doing. That's what they say they are doing, but they are very blatantly and obviously singling men of color out while making excuses for white men. This is what they mean when they say "talking about men of color the way you talk about white men". This is the kind of behavior they use man-hating rhetoric to excuse.

Additionally, it's a mistake to assume all women complaining about men of color are white.

Show me where I said that. Go ahead, show me. What I did say was that women who single out men of color for things that men of every ethnicity do are being racist (because they are), and that statements like "I want to burn muslims (male)", "I don't give a fuck how these ugly brown men are treated in the west" and most bafflingly "white women tears is a term black and brown men came up with to silence white women"(!!!) are racist, because they are.

Trans mascs are dealing with transphobia. There is a serious transphobic backlash in a lot of countries right now and while tumblr may feel like it's in a bubble sometimes, it is affected by the outside world.

Yes it is. There is no shortage of TERFs and garden variety transphobes on Tumblr. There is also no shortage of people who are using man-hating rhetoric to excuse harassing trans men at the moment. That is the phenomenon I am describing.

It's a serious problem and we need to protect our trans community members.

Yes we do. There is however an undercurrent of people who don't believe all of our trans community members deserve protection. They are a vocal minority that are going out of their way to harass trans men and people who wish to protect them.

A lot of transmascs need access to both HRT and contraception and have the potential to need access to abortion. American transmascs are getting hit twice, with anti-trans bigotry and restriction of reproductive freedom both being major projects of the incoming (and in many states established) right wing government.

Yes that's very much happening. Nothing to do with what I'm saying but yeah I do suppose you're right about that.

Women saying "I hate men" on the internet does not threaten trans men's lives the way the right--TERFs included--does.

Show me where I said it does. Go ahead, show me.

What I did say is that there are people using the sentiment of "I hate men" to harass and threaten trans men (if you want me to provide examples, I can, even if I know you aren't reading this), and that as such there are trans men who feel othered within their own community by this kind of sentiment.

Anyway, if you're done putting words in my mouth, I think it might be best if we stop talking here

Something I want this website specifically to reflect on! Are you mad at women for talking about men the same way you talk about cishets or neurotypicals? Why?