#cersei fan fiction

[ewanmitchellcrumbs]

And one more 😍😍💗💗

May I please request Cersei x reader with Dacryphilia?

eeee, thank you for this! Always happy to write about our lioness.

Warnings: Dacryphilia, orgasm denial, fingering, spanking. Words: ~900

Author's note: No gods, no masters, no tag lists. Only scabs community label fics. If you find yourself tempted to slap a label on this, please block me instead.

You gasp, a shiver rolling through you, as your body tenses and spasms, falling apart around the Lannister Queen's fingers as she lays between your legs.

She is quick to withdraw them, leaving you to clench around nothing. She rises, sitting back on her haunches and regards you coldly with a tilt of her head.

It's only then in your pleasure drunk haze that you realise you've accidentally reached your peak. She had explicitly instructed you not to do so without her permission.

You draw in a shuddering breath, shame rolling over you like a wave of Dornish heat, and begin to stammer your apologies.

"I-I am sorry...so sorry, Your Grace. I did not mean to, I know I wasn't supposed to, I-"

"You are beginning to irritate me." Cersei cuts you off, her voice smooth as silk.

She is ethereal as she kneels above you. A light sheen of perspiration clings to her smooth skin. Her waves of long, flaxen hair obscure her breasts from your view, and in the glow of the candlelight she looks like the Maiden herself.

It is a stark contrast to the fury that you see burning in her bright green eyes, a predatory hunger that both terrifies and excites you.

You know that the Queen's marriage to King Robert is an unhappy one, and you have heard the ugly rumours that spread around the Red Keep with regard to the nature of her relationship with her brother, Ser Jaime. You have been her lady's maid for more than a year now, it would be impudent not to take notice of the matters that ail her.

You are not quite sure how your relationship with her evolved into something more, it seemed to have happened out of nowhere. One morning, six months ago, you'd entered her quarters to help ready her for the day, and she'd been reclining in the bath in front of the fireplace. Her eyes had sought yours and she'd pointedly stood, watching closely as your gaze drifted over the wet curves of her body. She'd beckoned you over with a crook of her finger, and you'd regularly found yourself in her bed ever since.

Cersei wasn't necessarily cruel to you, but she wasn't a gentle lover either. You suspected she used you as a means to vent her frustrations at the political disputes she often found herself at the centre of.

She is a lioness toying with her prey, seeking release between your thighs. She delights in her ability to make you sob with every torturous touch and playful denial, tracing your tear tracks with dexterous fingers and smiling in satisfaction at the wetness that lines your lashes.

You are well aware that it is folly to allow this to continue, a flagrant abuse of her power, yet you cannot find it in yourself to give her up. You aren't sure she'd let you. The scent of almond oil that clings to her hair and pulse points is intoxicating, the taste of Arbor Gold upon her lips makes you dizzy with every feverish kiss. She brings you to the apex of your pleasure faster and more skilfully than any man you've ever coupled with. So you allow her your tears and your dignity.

You can feel the familiar burn around your waterline threatening to spill over as you lay there now. You know she wants to push you to the point where it does.

"You will not have release until I grant it, is that understood?" She'd commanded earlier that evening, pushing you back onto the bed once you'd discarded your gown.

You'd nodded fervently, eager to obey your Queen, but the way her fingers had worked so expertly inside of you had made it impossible to hold back, and so now you were utterly at her mercy.

You are certain that she'd done this on purpose, set you up to fail so that she had an excuse to punish you, and you find yourself wondering what grievance from her day she'll be taking out on you tonight.

"So pretty when you cry." She coos, stroking your cheek, a gesture that's almost tender.

She withdraws, leaning over the side of the bed and reappears with a black leather paddle in her hands. She smirks as your eyes widen.

"On all fours for me, like a good little bitch." Cersei orders wickedly.

"Your Grace, please, have mercy." You whine.

She huffs softly through her nose, rolling her eyes playfully. "I suggest you pray to the Mother for that. I've none to give you. I shan't ask again."

You do as you're told, rolling over and supporting your weight on shaking arms and legs. Jolting in surprise when her palm smooths softly over the curve of your rear, you inhale sharply, bracing yourself for impact.

"This might hurt a little." She purrs. "But I'm sure you know that."

The crack of the paddle smacking your bare flesh echoes off of the vaulted ceiling, as stinging pain blossoms in its wake. Hot, wet tears trail down your cheeks. This is the price you pay when you allow a lioness to make you her plaything.

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

So I did a thing....

idk I think I’ve cracked the code 🤔💭

[direwolfrules]

The Weirwood Queen Memes Part 4: This is basically just a Lannister hate account at this point

As always, spoilers for The Weirwood Queen by @redwolf17. Really cool fic, go check it out.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Master Post

[musical-chick-13]

...Very wild to me how someone could be following the messy women poll--where I specifically said that literally no fictional crime is too great, where I gave special spotlight in the rules to fictional women who are war criminals--while having “[shippers of x] dni” in their bio.

Like. Why are you here.

[daenerysstormreborn]

“Why is it always Rhaegar that fans talk about when it comes to what happened to Elia and not Tywin or Gregor?”

Because Tywin and Gregor are presented unambiguously as villains in the text. Gregor does not have any depth to him at all. He is cruel, violent, and evil. There is not much more to say about him. He did something absolutely horrific without remorse. Tywin is more interesting but still entirely unsympathetic and unambiguously evil. Even Cersei, who idolizes Tywin, thinks he went to hell. Plus we saw both of them alive on page, so there’s less speculation to be done. Meanwhile Rhaegar never appeared alive on page and we only have information from various characters. He’s more of a mystery to the reader, and he’s not presented as an unambiguous villain. Most characters think about him positively. The only one to really speak ill of him is Robert, who is awful. The kind of person Rhaegar was is more up to the readers to decide. There is simply more room for discussion.

Second, Tywin and Gregor are held accountable by characters in the narrative already for the death of Elia and her children. Their culpability is not something to be discussed. It’s obvious. And characters already find it vile. You could make the case that since we don’t get a lot of animosity towards Rhaegar in the Martell POV chapters, that Oberyn’s anger was directed at Gregor, that they don’t assign any blame to Rhaegar. But two things: 1. Rhaegar is dead and gone, whereas Gregor and Tywin were still living and able to be held accountable. For the readers, all three are fictional. And, now, dead. And 2. The characters not blaming Rhaegar isn’t an indication that he’s blameless. The readers are often invited to come to our own conclusions about what is wrong or right, evil or righteous. Jaehaerys is regarded in universe as a good man and great king. But we the readers know that he slaughtered his teenage daughter’s lover while she watched. We get to decide for ourselves if Jaehaerys was a good man regardless of the opinions of the characters.

Gregor and Tywin are undoubtedly the most culpable for the deaths of Elia and her kids. One ordered it and the other did it. This is known and nobody is going to contest it. It does not erase this fact to say that if Rhaegar had not absconded with Lyanna, leaving his wife and kids in King’s Landing, they may have survived. It was short-sighted of him. He didn’t know he would die. He didn’t know that his wife and kids would suffer—but he knew that what he was doing would cause political unrest, and he knew that his father had no love for his wife and kids. Perhaps Rhaegar truly believed that having a child with Lyanna was the key to saving the realm. Even if this is true, he still bears some responsibility for the deaths of Elia and her children. I’m sure he did not think they would be harmed—but therein lies the problem. He should have thought more of them, even if his intentions were noble, because he knew he was going to incite political unrest and he knew his father didn’t care for Elia and her kids.

Saying that Tywin Lannister, Amory Lorch, and Gregor Clegane are evil and culpable in the deaths of Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys is just very “water is wet.” It’s preaching to the choir. We can all see this. The characters in the story see this. Trying to understand the kind of person Rhaegar was, including the BAD, since we’re given mostly positive views of him, is something to actually talk about. The only one really speaking ill of Rhaegar in universe is Robert and it’s most certainly NOT because he cared about Elia and the kids. Elia’s end was tragic and it echoes through the story just like Lyanna’s. Speculating about her relationship with her husband (which GRRM himself has said was complex) and what he could have done to protect her is just a matter of investigating a series of events that is still rather shrouded and thus is actually worthy of discussion

[dwellordream]

"she's patriarchy-pilled" and why it doesn't apply to fictious pseudo-medieval women

a pretty common meta commentary leveled at certain female characters in ASOIAF is that you can divide the women of the setting into two groups.

the first group is full of strong feminist women who resist the patriarchy in all corners, and who refuse to submit to victimhood. the second group is full of placid, smug sheep, who enjoy being weak and condescended to by men.

reasons why this is bullshit:

comparisons between modern day 'trad wives' or 'red pilled women' who advocate for rejecting feminism and returning to lives of happy homemaking and female submission and fictional characters living in a pseudo medieval world just... don't work well.

Westeros has never had a feminist movement. there is no sense of 'getting back to tradition' because they are still living in a feudal patriarchy. while internalized misogyny can still be displayed in the books, and women certainly judge other women, these characters aren't actually 'rejecting their own freedom', because they quite literally have no choice in the matter.

for example, while a woman in 21st century America might willingly quit her job or drop out of school for a relationship with a man, a female character like Catelyn or Alicent or Cersei... isn't actually sacrificing hopes of a career or an education. they are being shunted down a path with little to no alternatives.

sometimes fans go "well, they could have run away! they could have joined the Faith?" how? with what money and resources? who is going to protect them on the road? how are they going to subvert the will of their fathers/brothers/etc?

don't get me wrong. there are absolutely unironic examples of internalized misogyny in ASOIAF. Cersei, for example, spends much of her time sneering at and degrading other women for being victims or weak-willed. HOWEVER, what many fans don't seem to grasp, is that being sexist towards other women doesn't magically make Cersei 'win' at the patriarchy. she herself is still abused, demeaned, and used as a political pawn, well into her tenure as Queen Regent.

in the endless battle of Sansa versus Arya stans, for example, Sansa stans will often claim that Arya is 'not a victim' and 'deserves less sympathy than Sansa', because Arya for a time is treated as a young boy and has training with a sword. yet this ignores the fact that Arya is still constantly threatened with or exposed to sexual violence, even while masquerading as a boy, and while she can defend herself in some instances, is far from this super-powered action chick on a 'fun road trip in the Riverlands'.

conversely, Arya stans will insinuate that Sansa 'deserves less sympathy than Arya' because 'being at court is what she always wanted' and 'the patriarchy favors her due to her self-serving, submissive ways'. yet this ignores the fact that while Sansa has more material privileges than Arya, being afforded regular meals, a soft place to sleep, and the veneer of civility, she is still regularly viciously abused by Joffrey and his Kingsguard, and ostracized and isolated from the rest of the court. Sansa's not winning any competition here.

to move on to Catelyn, many of Catelyn's proud 'antis' will claim that Catelyn is a woman who willingly and knowingly profits off the patriarchy while condemning women who do not fit that mold. yet while Catelyn and Arya's relationship is complex, we also see Catelyn treat Brienne and the Mormont women, all female warriors, with warmth and kindness, and there is an underlying current of resentment and anger in her chapters towards the men in her life, even though she is in many ways the 'ideal Westeros wife'.

finally, to dabble briefly in HOTD, Rhaenyra and Alicent's different reactions to the prospect of marriage and motherhood are often compared to triumph Rhaenyra's strong will and sense of rebellion. while Rhaenyra's determination to choose her own spouse and her disregard for the ridiculous notion of 'virginity' should be admired, she is also actively groomed by her uncle, a man thrice her age, and she ultimately does agree to an arranged marriage with Laenor.

meanwhile, Alicent is often derided by fans for 'allowing herself to be used as a pawn', yet this ignores the fact that Alicent is a 14/15 year old girl with no incomes or property of her own, who does not even have the threat of a dragon to demand respect. what was Alicent meant to do? kick and scream as she was dragged down the aisle? defy her father and the King, and be, best case scenario, permanently ostracized from court and her family for it? this sort of blatant victim-blaming dominates in the tumblr HOTD fandom.

in conclusion: to claim that women play no role in promulgating patriarchal and misogynistic views is silly.

women do play an active role in shaming and abusing other women, and this is often handed down from mothers to daughters. it allows patriarchs the veneer of genteel nature, in that the 'dirty work' of berating young girls for not conforming is passed off on mothers, sisters, and aunts.

however, in fandom discussions, the the woobification of male characters is so strong that we spend most of our time blaming women alone for patriarchal restrictions and values, as if it were something girls developed in their free time, purely for their own amusement.

to imply that a character in a fictional feudal patriarchy has the same range of choices and autonomy as modern day women do is absurd. the trad-wife movement is defined by its knowing, pseudo-intellectual rejection of second and third wave feminism. the entire point is to turn away from abortion, from birth control, from reproductive and LGBT rights, to leave behind women's suffrage, sex positivity, and criticism of gender roles.

but what do Westerosi women have to 'reject', exactly? they're not playing with the same full deck.

[visenyaism]

Some ASOIAF fans are wild, I’m supposed to give a singular shit about usurpation in the year of our lord 2024 lmao ? Not to be all “everything is a social construct” but legitimacy and kingship are literally social constructs. It’s perceived and there are so many little complexities to it. Unless you’re a monarchist I don’t see why people should be bothered about the logistics ? Especially in a FICTIONAL SERIES ? Who cares if Visenya, Cersei, or Alicent usurped the throne ??

well yes legitimacy IS a social construct and the people who get on the internet and litigate who the rightful king is like “rightful king” is an innate concept and not ALSO a completely made up social construct confuse me too. Usurpation is a made up completely relative crime that you only get charged with if you lose and fail to hold onto power otherwise you ARE the rightful king. I think understanding that legitimacy and usurpation are just constructions of power makes the narrative more interesting and enjoyable because then we understand that right and wrong don’t matter because everyone who wants power is going to try and take it and justify it to themselves.

all that being said i do think that Rhaenyra getting her claim nullified because she is a woman (not that the greens wouldn’t’ve tried anyway even if she was a son they’d just be less successful) is obviously not great and worth noting in a story very much about the interactions between gender and power.

[nulnoildrinker]

Appearently Elia Martell has haters, and I do not understand why. Well except Cersei, but Cersei hating someone is the Westerosi equivalent of getting sick, it happens to everyone at some point or another.

No, I am speaking about real people that for some reason has it out for a dead fictional woman. As far as I remeber there wasn't a single negative thing being written about her in the books. Even Robert seems unable to hate her. Her children maybe, but not Elia herself.

I could see a deluded Rhaegar fan believing that Elia herself stopped the Dornish from supporting Aerys and not her brothers, but that is about it.

I don't understand it, nor do I think I ever will.

[thestory812]

5 years on and people don’t understand why fans are still upset about the ending (yes people can still discuss shows that have long ended their run. Its as though people don’t discuss fictional works from hundreds, thousands of years ago).

No one expected a happy ending and most of us saw him returning to Cersei a mile away. It is that the ending tried to invalidate a relationship that directors, writers and actors explicitly stated was a deep, romantic one. If there had just been one scene, one moment showing Jaime’s regret, a look back as he rode away. The very people who mock Braime fans for not understanding the “complexity” of the show, actually display a misunderstanding of story complexity itself and minimize a group of fans who truly understand what a bittersweet, complex story means.

[ewanmitchellcrumbs]

……cersei corrupting little sister reader mayhaps 🤭

Here you go, Babybel. I hope my lesbian offering pleases you.

Warnings: DEAD DOVE, DO NOT EAT. Incest, corruption kink, dubcon, fingering. Word count: ~1k

Cersei is in her cups again. You can tell by the faintest tint of rouge that stains her lips and the gleam she gets in her green eyes when she’s overindulged in Arbor red. It’s gotten worse since Jaime went away to the Riverlands and there is little you can do to stop it.

Truthfully, you are glad he’s gone. Growing up you’d always envied the closeness he shared with your older sister, the gap in age between you and your siblings made childhood lonely for you. Tyrion didn’t take an interest in you, but you’d always adored Cersei. You idolised the grace with which she carried herself, her effortless beauty and sharp tongue. She never really paid you any mind though, too preoccupied with her twin to notice you.

It was only when Jaime wasn’t around that she deigned to give you any attention, but you basked in being her plaything, even though it was only temporary. You had heard the rumours regarding your siblings’ incestuous relationship, but your father had scoffed derisively when you dared to ask, telling you that was a scandalous practice that had died with the Targaryens. The Lannisters would never debase themselves with such depravity. You’d believed him, you had no reason not to.

That was until you grew older, Cersei married King Robert, and Jaime’s absences became more frequent. Something shifted in the affection that your sister lavished upon you. It evolved into something darker, more intimate and filled you with feelings of burning shame, amidst a deep seated warmth in your lower belly that you could never quite find the words to articulate.

Lingering kisses to the lips, insistence that you share her bed while she kept you cuddled close to her replaced games of make believe and hide and seek. You supposed it was part of her becoming Queen. People change. She had to grow up and so would you.

This feels too grown up though; as she stands, wine goblet in hand, eyeing you closely as you run your hands over the rich, crimson brocade fabric of the gown draped over the folding screen.

“I cannot wear this,” You tell her, shaking your head and snatching your hands back as though you may sully the material with your very touch. “It is too much.”

She smirks at you, taking a slow sip of her wine and letting her eyes travel the length of you. “You are a Lannister. Nothing is too much.” She says with a slight tilt of her head.

“You have worn this gown to hold Court before!” You protest. “I cannot wear the Queen’s clothes.”

She steps closer, taking your jaw between thumb and forefinger. You can smell cloves and berried fruits upon her breath as it fans across your face, her eyes boring into yours. “Do you remember how much fun we had playing dress up when you were a girl?” She whispers.

You swallow thickly, hating the way your lower belly flutters under her attention. “Y-yes.” You peep meekly.

“Will you dress up once more, sweet sister, just for me?” She purrs.

You want to tell her no, you long to wrench from her grasp and flee back to your own chambers, if only to put a stop to the uncomfortable stickiness that gathers between your legs. You hate this, and yet you will not deny her anything. She is your sister, your Queen. 

You nod your head and she releases you with a demure smile. “Good girl.” She praises stepping back.

Your hands move to lift your thin cotton shift over your head, then pause, uncertainty paralysing you. “Aren’t you going to leave while I dress?”

She scoffs, a grin briefly flashes across her pretty features before it’s gone again. “Nothing I haven’t seen before.” She says with a soft shrug.

You hesitate a moment, before pulling off your nightgown, leaving you bare before your sister. It may be nothing she hasn’t seen before, but she has certainly never looked at you like that before.

There is a predatory hunger, dark and urgent, in the way she stares at you. It makes you want to shrink into yourself, cover whatever parts of you she can see with your hands. The silent threat to rob you of your innocence looms heavy and oppressive. It frightens you, but not as much as the urge you have to simply give in to her.

“Here, allow me.” She says, setting her goblet down and stepping forward to take the dress from the screen.

Your breath hitches as her fingertips drag across your skin as she helps you into it, leaving gooseflesh in their wake. You have to bite back a whimper as she grazes your pebbled nipples lightly as she pulls the bodice over your breasts. You are sure it is deliberate.

The room feels too hot, your skin blazes and you grow wetter between your thighs, guilt eating away at you for it.

Lannisters would never debase themselves with such depravity.

What if you are depraved? What if she knows? She’d tell your father and it would bring shame upon your entire house.

You are broken from your thoughts as Cersei’s hand cups your mound beneath your skirts, her lips parting slightly as she feels the arousal gathered there.

You gasp, attempting to pull back, but she follows, keeping her hand exactly where it is. You bump into the wall, backed up against it as she spreads her fingers through your sodden folds, exploring.

“S-stop.” You stammer, unable to comprehend that your own sister would touch you in such a way.

She tuts, but makes no move to halt her ministrations. “Don’t you wish to play, little lion?”

Your eyes widen, your breathing becoming more laboured as the urge to resist her grows weaker. Realisation dawns, horrifying and intriguing all at once. “Is…is this how you and Jaime play?”

She laughs softly, plunging a finger inside of you, the sudden stretch of it making you yelp. “Oh, how Jaime and I play is much more intimate. Would you like me to show you?”

No is precisely what you should say, if you were to listen to the way your mind screams at you to run. However, driven by the fluttering in your cunt and the excitement that flurries in your belly, you answer in the affirmative. “Show me.”

[assblastergaster]

types of hotd watchers:

• book reader 1: furious, probably hate watching. does not understand why nothing is happening like the book or what an unreliable narrator is

• book reader 2: has a much better understanding of the books and their theme, but still has huge complaints about characters they cut out (daeron, maegor, etc.)

• the racist: casual GoT fan back during its heyday, is still incredibly uncomfortable at non white people being included in the show and constantly brings up how "stupid it is to make the velaryons black"

• casual enjoyer: very into team black versus team green, likes the show a lot :) probably a former got fan that is just keeping their expectations low (this is most people, keep that in mind)

• team players: people who have gotten incredibly worked up over a fictional civil war and, like book reader 1, doesn't understand what nuanced storytelling is. probably haven't read the books but do remember the ending from joffrey spoilers

• ship centric: really weirdly into incest most of the time (but don't accuse them of thinking jaime and cersei was cool) or overanalyzing gay subtext

• character centric: incredibly horny. kind of make going through posts after an episode unbearable, will only post about Their Guy and will find a way to make them the victim in every situation (not true for any character except probably helaena)

• reverse character centric: these are the worst of the worst. opposite of character centric because they don't love Their Guy, they DESPISE them. everything is Their fault (commonly: alicent (misogyny), alicent again (narrative reasons), viserys, cole, etc.)

[anastaaaaaaasia]

I really hate HBO

I am writing this and understand perfectly well that this post can cause a lot of discontent and hate, but I feel that I can no longer remain silent.

It's about HBO and the character of Aegon, and more specifically about the incident with Dyana.

Many of the green team and even Tom Glynn-Carney himself are hated and called rape apologists. *Deep breath*

Honestly, I will never understand this, especially when real people are bullied for fictional characters. But today I would like to talk about HBO.

I absolutely love the character of Aegon, I love the books on which the series was based, but HBO is hitting another rock bottom with their masterpieces.

All the scenes with Dyana look terribly awkward, because the serial Aegon is so pitiful that sometimes you think that he himself is being straponed by all the servants in turn. As my mother says, you can only hug him and cry. Diana as a character is a simple cardboard figurine for HBO's convenience.

All modern values, agendas and education on these topics are, of course, good, but not when they cover their asses with it for their own convenience. Unfortunately, in the modern world, where the topic of violence is very acute, it also turns out to be a very profitable topic. Profitable for increasing coverage, convenient for creating a clichéd image of a villain. I wouldn't even be surprised if HBO released Dyana T-shirts later.

But the most deplorable thing is that a large corporation does not remember about rape, when they could have donated to a fund to help victims and talked about it at events. Just perform an educational function!

Sorry, but HBO essentially monetized violence.

Chapter 2. Fans and double standards.

I can understand why the TV series Aegon is hated. Yes, he’s no good! Despite the fact that he still remains my favorite character. The first scene with the adult Aegon, right where Alicent scolds him for Dyana. This act is essentially presented to us as the main one, as the main feature of Aegon. How else should those who were not familiar with the books before react?

But I have another question, many of the fans of the House of the Dragon watched Game of Thrones, where there is much more violence. Why then were only new characters included in the distribution?

We had Ramsay raping Sansa on her wedding night. We believed this because we saw the sadistic tendencies and understood that Sansa was not a Mary Sue who would be able to escape from Ramsay at the last moment.

We had JAIME raping Cersei over the corpse of their own son. but his character had been revealed before from the best sides, so many did not even understand what happened.

I will never get tired of saying that the writers and producers, frankly, did a terrible job. We were supposed to have a series where the fight is between two types of shit, all of them gray. But we ended up with characters without motivation, with unnecessary clichés and, frankly speaking, boring in many places.

We got a real feud between the fans. This is good for business, but bad for humanity. It turns out that many actors receive hate.

Yes, I’m on the green team, but first of all, I’m on the team of those who condemn the shitty work of screenwriters and producers.

[esther-dot]

The debate about the appropriateness of Jonsa overshadows the political/feudal argument. Unless you can make a convincing case Sansa is going to run away and become a peasant with Sandor (didn't GRRM literally mock that...), or that she can singlehandedly Elizabeth the first it, then you need to be thinking about marriage. Marriage is just as important as war in GRRM's books, if not moreso, and it's a symbolic struggle at that.

Of course Stumpy has searched for Sansa's husband and applied this thinking, but it's one that's otherwise severely lacking. GRRM would go there. We know he'd go there, cousins or not. The question is, why?

Stumpy's Find Sansa's Husband is one of my favs!

No worries! Each of us has a fandom pet peeve we need to rant about. And you're right about Martin's criticism of the "running off with a stable boy trope," in fact, it sounds like the idea really annoys him (his quote below the cut)

And then there are some things that are just don’t square with history. In some sense I’m trying to respond to that. [For example] the arranged marriage, which you see constantly in the historical fiction and television show, almost always when there’s an arranged marriage, the girl doesn’t want it and rejects it and she runs off with the stable boy instead. This never fucking happened. It just didn’t. There were thousands, tens of thousand, perhaps hundreds of thousands of arranged marriages in the nobility through the thousand years of Middle Ages and people went through with them. That’s how you did it. It wasn’t questioned. Yeah, occasionally you would want someone else, but you wouldn’t run off with the stable boy. And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

I think the issue is, S*nsans and people who shipped Sansa with LF were some of the first to write real meta on her (from what I've heard), so certain fans/perceptions got pretty firmly established, and then a new generation of Sansa fan came along who rejected the Sansa x adult man/molester ships, but it was pretty easy for them to assume that due to Sansa's age, Martin would leave her marriage to the future.

Also, a lot of people don't expect Sansa to be QitN, so the succession issue isn't putting pressure on the marriage timeline, and if you're someone who thinks Bran will actually be king over all Westeros or Rickon will be KitN etc etc, you can imagine Sansa's endgame is safety in Winterfell, not a romance or marriage.

Personally, I think Sansa's interactions with Cersei and LF indicate that she wants to be the right kind of queen (in defiance of Cersei's advice) and is being equipped with tools to achieve her own ends / play the game, for the right reasons, to good ends, but being handed tools nonetheless. She is so unfocused on her birthright and power, it seemed like she was meant to be contrasted with Cersei and Dany. The natural endpoint of that imo would be her becoming queen. And, if she is queen, I've argued that based on other queen's experiences, we must see her married as being a queen is a whole new set of risks, not a happy ending in and of itself.

Of course, some have speculated that the endgame will be indicated, not actually chronicled on the page, as in, Jon and Sansa fall in love, but Jon does get sent to the wall or goes into exile for a callback of what Sansa imagined she could do to save Ned, and we end kinda knowing, eventually they'll get back together, but the actual happy ending isn't on the page. Or the alternative scenario is that Jon is named KitN because of Robb's Will and marries Sansa to resolve all the chaos after parentage reveal. That's where your thoughts on the political aspect of marriage comes in because that would be very tidy. Actually, whoever is recognized by the Northern Lords, whether it’s my preference of Sansa or Jon, the heir issue was a big deal for Robb, so marriage / heirs will certainly come up and impact the plot.

As for Jonsa itself and it being icky to some, I've said before, I think Martin must have something he wants to do with incest beyond showcasing how toxic it is. As in, that is not a way to challenge the reader, by saying something we all know, and his whole shtick is to write complexity into every relationship, every hero, even many villains, so I don't for a minute believe that's he's introduced this topic without planning to ask the audience to think a little more deeply on it. To force us to look at it from a different angle. The way he does that is to give us heroes who are tempted and make us squirm until we get parentage reveal.

[horizon-verizon]

The truth is out of the bag: I hate Jon Snow, it seems.

I remember distinctly saying that I didn't hate hate the guy, but I guess I was unconvincing when I expressed I didn't think Jonerys (the ship) was lasting and/or possible in canon and beceause of what Dany would have to go through to keep Jon versus Jon endangering her possible hold on power for being Rhaegar's bastard son.

What exaclty do you think makes Jon exactly like Rhaegar in personality, experience, psychological development, values, purpose, etc.? Dany like Lyanna? Because they are leaders for the "people", ful stop? Without stipulating that their similarity comes with different conditions, goals, philosophies, etc., that's almost like saying that bec Dany and Cersei are both queens, they can be near perfectly made out to be very similar people! Even the exact same sort! Could not be farther from the case.

I also never argued that Lyanna was "a means to Rhaegar's end". Espe because I call bullshit on the idea that he sought her out merely for the prophecy and needed a third child! I am not one of those who agrees with that theory. Not sure where you got that impression if you actually read anything I wrote about Rhaegar and Lyanna!

The argument above is an ad hominem, a logical fallacy where the person attacks the arguer's perceived or real identity and/or actions not havign to do with the argument topic or the arguemnts at hand, but meant to discredit the person and/or distract them and the possible audience to derail the conversation. Attacking character. Within it is also a strawman argument as the person has tried to make make as if I was ever judging Jon through his parents...very strange. The purpose is to transpose their own feelings about Rhaegar, transmute it as the topic, and use the "objectivity" of Rhaegar's deplorability to argue that my favor towards Rhaelays says somethign about me. Funny enough, this commentator did not bring up my arguments for why I argue Rhaegar was not the devil incarnate, but they do not care because that would mess up their aim--to discredit my rationality and throww some possile doubt on their own. If this was in an ask or a oublic thred, but thei was a DM, so I think they wanted to stir some doubt in me & shame silence into me.

but let's get back to this section:

You want the last legacy of a girl who risks her son's life to disappear. It's misogyny. What you're so excited about for Daenerys? Why do you do it with the son of a woman? What they did to Daenerys with Rhaego? Please stop belittling Lyanna and Jon because you're not a fan of Lyanna.

There's so many assumptions being made here.

First - The principal assumption here is that I am "belittling" Lyanna when I say that Jon is not politically safe enough a possible royal consort for Dany, one of the very few and only Queen regnants that have ever existed as she is capable of becoming and is currently being!

You want the last legacy of a girl who risks her son's life to disappear.

"Last legacy" implies the only one that gives any strong and valuable meaning to the woman/girl. IF you are talking about Lyanna, [3rd point below], she didn't do that. Doesn't work for Dany either. So who? If Lyanna, Jon is supposedly her only legacy (that matters or that you could detect and speculate), and I think that this is rather a sexist reading on your part as it assumes Lyanna only has Jon as an "accomplishment". Why? Because Jon is that badass so it stands to reason that Lyanna's "sacrifice" was necessary for his rise? Does this sound like it's in close proximity to another possible instance of the trope of a woman used--and worse killed off--for a male character's development in fiction? Same for Dany, except feministly, she lives and her son dies (without her desire but it happens) is accidentally used in part of a process that leads to her "birthing" dragons back to the world. In your schema of badass-Jon, a woman is narratively sacrificed for the man to be badass. This is not the case for Dany whatsoever!!! You should rather be the one NOT throwing a woman's importance to the bin! Truly, what was the connection here? Either way, any "legacy" that Jon would inherit from Lyanna would be tainted by his bastardry sociopolitically/in-world. It only matters differently to fans, as in-world, it'd be more a revisiitng of a scandal that led to a war if there had been no Long Night to face, which then would really be all about Jon's efforts and legacy, not Lyanna's! As of now in the books, Jon has more "legacy" or an inheritanc eof such from Ned, not Lyanna...bc of the whole thing being a secret still!

Feminism is not "a womans' son will give meaning to a woman's death & being". Feminism says "I spit on the whole thing, and maybe, in fact, I will reverse it and let the woman thrive."

There's a another sub-assumption about the world needing Jon more than they need Dany even thought you mention Dany as somehow disrepected by me precisely because you talk more about your dislike of me "hating" Jon, when I say what I say for Dany's interests alone. You don't seem to like that Dany could and should be separated in one's considerations of characterization and roles and development or narrative importance. To you, I think that Dany only matters bc Jon exists to give her meaning and a role and to make her actions in Essos have purpose instead of Dany's journey being a potential solo saga in itself about questioning rulers and subverting gender and sexuality! If you took Jon out, Dany's story--as it already has--would enthrall enough people to be a cultural phenomenon and she already is the most popular character of this series if you see the stats or had eyes. For goodness, sakes, her story ALONE won GRRM his Hugo award! I am not biased--look it up, these are the facts.

What does Dany's queenship have anything to do with Lyanna and Lyanna's death other than "granting" her a bastard nephew who shouldn't be a real political threat but is bc of this sexist world and the Dance's precedent and the Blackfyre Rebellion's example (sexism and xenophobia/racism-ableism)?

Why does it seem that the validity and very existence of Dany's queenship is narratively, socially, etc dependent on Jon's political success? As if she must needs be subservient to Jon to have any success in Westeros or to maintain any shred of power and credibility elsewhere? that we should look to her looking to Jon for an endured reign for herself when the text has given time and time again Dany is more than capable of ruling by herself and needs no "co ruler"...that a male "co ruler" is actually dangerous (Hizdhar) bc of how muc societies (that Dany will rule but still have to deal with local authorities there with their own rules, histories, etc. that she'd navigate as she does in Meereen) allow/credit men over any female relative or partner?! Whether the man is "nice" or not--was never about that and it's inconsequential to how the SYSTEM set against Dany anyway.

Second - How the hell do Dany's and Lyanna's "legacies" match"?! Lyanna is already dead while Dany is actively and currently doing stuff that only adds to what her leagcy would be after she dies!

Even if you manage to argue well for anything abt Lyanna's death to bring Jon into the world being Rhaegar just using her for her womb then informing the audience about Dany...Rhaego is DEAD, Dany is the one who lived! Nothing that happens to your version of Lyanna is going to happen to Dany and vice versa of Jon-Rhaego!

What in the world makes you believe that what we can relate and equate noble-privileged-even-she-is-a-teen-girl-Lyanna's decision to run off with Rhaegar to what Dany being sold (thus against her will) to Drogo and becoming a bridal slave?! Was Lyanna sold into sexual slavery by her own brother for an army in threat of mass r*pe if she didn't "comply"? Is Lyanna a queen now? How does what happens to Rhaego relate in anyway to HOW Dany's child was murdered for you to be comparing Rhaego to jon Snow, a bastard more privileged than most who, unlike Rhaego, got to grow into an "adult" (quotes bc he is one in his society and most of the world and that matters bc he gets to acquire a certain sort of authority because of it, esp as a man)?!

Obviously the assumption being made is that Rhaegar raped Lyanna and/or stole her away from her family or people against her will. The text gives SO MANY clues as to how this is just false. i already argued why and how in my earlier posts and reblogs of others sayign the same under "rhaeyla" or "lyanna and rhaegar"--tags in my blog. Since I reject this assumption and until you or others bring something that actually addresses what I argued, there's really no point in me addressing this assumption from you that is the foundation of your accusations other than:

Rhaegar and Lyanna were not tragic bc Rhaegar raped her or kidnapped her; they are tragic literally Romeo and Juliet styl;e where the love was impossible for their families' AND their individual sociopolitcal positions and they had no time/space afforded to them to be able to be totally fulfilled even if they had never met each other--critiques of whether a man and a girl could AND should be written as a love story to "teach" readers that such relationships are okay in real life is a different matter altogether [see bullet 3], and you don't have to like it, but you should not be denyign facts of story like how many green stans do with the whole Jaehaera v Daenaera bullcrap

you seem to like to waste my and others' time to feel smart

don't like this? Take it up w/GRRM. There is such thing as Watsonian readings of canon and Doylist readings of why the writer wrote what they wrote. I speak of what the story is telling its readers

Third- When did Lyanna "risk" Jon's life? Lyanna laid in the Tower of Joy for almost the entire war, pregnant with Jon, what "risk" is she putting fetus-Jon through? We can't even say Dany does that w/Rhaego bc SHE DIDN'T KNOW THAT MIRRI WAS GOING TO USE RHAEGO'S LIFE FOR DROGO'S!!! You make as if there's a possibility that this is true. So who are you talking about?!

Fourth - Somehow, I don't like Lyanna.

Person, this is the only girl of the Dead Ladies Club I care about and adore, partly bec she doesn't really fit even though she's definitely dead and her death fosters Jon's character (Knight of the Laughing Tree). Yeah, she and Rhaegar are a package deal narratively....Elia does not stand as a character without being Rhaegar's wife, though? And I don't like characters simply bc they are victims and happen to not be able to do nothing for themselves wehether they are partially to blame for that or not at all. And Lyanna, unlike Elia, is a packaged deal w/Rhaega bc from them comes. It's not fair to Elia that she is married to Rhaegar bc Aerys essentially wanted to make his own son less popular (Westerosi xenophobia against Dornishmen) and she grew sicker and bd bound in her gendered "duty" to provide him heirs...or that their marriage was not one Rhaegar would have chosen for himself. But sexism. Part of the point and something that negatively impacts Lyanna as well, NOT fans' insistence of "hating" or truly hating Jon!

Perhaps there is a racial bias against Elia on GRRM's part that makes him put a horrible fate on a darker skinned woman, even though Elia is NOT PoC in the way we think of PoC or what we are familiar with. In fact, she's a "white" woman who is not "white" like Italians and Irish people were at one point in the U.S. But all that would be on GRRM and a Doylist reading, NOT a Watsonian/in-text/story one!

And side note & jic, no Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship was not one that made Jon legitimate or socially recognized as one bc Rhaegar did not contest polygamy against the Faith of Westeros after the Targs implicitly gave that up for the sake of peaceably marrying themselves in the Doctrine of Exceptionalism. Maegor may not have either, but he managed to dispel of his opposers to the marriages and thus they are "real". rhaegar, if he had married Lyanna, could not do anything like other the doctrine or killing off his foes, so Jon IS a bastard regardless.

[sophiemariepl]

I know I’m gonna sound like a boomer again, but I really miss the times when we could appreciate a fictional character without having to morally excuse their actions. And yes, this is again about Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon.

(I know that someone already wrote it here, but I feel like we need to stress it out more.)

Like, one of the main reasons why I find the HotD fandom so annoying and unbearable is that way too many individuals active in it conflate how well a particular character is written with how moral they are as a person.

But here it does not even seem to stem from any good deeds that they do, as it was in the case of Daenerys fandom (or at least, most of the time it does not seem to stem from it). Here, basically, all that matters is personal liking towards the character - if someone likes a particular character, they immediately jump to idealize them. Almost as if people were ashamed to admit that they like a character that is morally flawed or imperfect??

I already wrote in one of my previous posts about the Rhaenyra-Alicent dichotomy which is a great example of this phenomenon in the HotD fandom. I’m not gonna repeat myself here, so if you wanna know about which dichotomy I’m talking, go check out this post.

Coming back to my main point that is complaining, I miss the times when people could freely admit that they loved the Lannisters specifically because they are toxic, cruel and cunning (maybe except for Jeoffrey, I think that Jeoffrey was less appreciated and more universally hated 😜). Because they still appreciated the way the Lannisters were written. The political mind of Tywin, Tyrion’s wit, Cersei’s and Jamie’s toxicity, and the complexity of their characters.

Did they commit awful things, either to advance their family politically or for their personal gain? Yes.

Does that deny that they were extremely well written, as three-dimensional, multi-layered people? No.

Of course, I’m using the Lannisters only as an example, because I cannot list every single character of that sorts in here.

Having given this example tho, it makes me wonder why people cannot adopt the same approach to HotD. What’s the problem with using it in one was or another towards Otto Hightower, Alicent, Rhaenyra, Corlys Velaryon and Rhaenys Targaryen, or perhaps even most importantly, to Daemon?

Does this approach make you feel bad about yourselves, HotD fans? Are you ashamed to think that you like a character that is actually an awful person? Or is it that you just assume that every character that you like has to be a morally good person?

I’m genuinely asking.

[overhatedcharacterspoll]

OVERHATED CHARACTERS POLL: Cersei Lannister (Game of Thrones)

Feel free to explain your position in the comments or tags, but any harassment, over-the-top fighting, or personal attacks will result in you being blocked. Do not attack real people, be they fans or creators, over fictional characters.

Mod note: I don't know enough about this series to know whether Cersei's book counterpart is different enough to warrant her own poll. People who have read the books, sound off?