#but ye I think I am good dshfhds

[katyahina]

Bloodborne timeline

I decided to finally organize my variant of Bloodborne timeline, since I kept having ideas, but they'd at times contradict each other. I tried to use as many justifications as I could, basing it on whatever clues I COULD find, including some cut content too for the good measure!

Of course my word is not final in any way! Bloodborne offers a lot of room for interpretation, and this is just how I've pieced things together! If someone finds anything in this timeline variant helpful, just know that it is 1000% allowed to use my findings! In fact, I'd even be happy if my thoughts could help someone else to resolve THEIR timeline questions!

I just need to warn though, some bits are rather elaborate. Characters Rom and Izzy, who don't have personality or much lore in the source material, are given very important roles and thus kinda hefty characterization. I also payed a lot of attention to the segment of Pthumerian's rise and fall, because a lot of it will tie in Yharnam's events. Time is a flat circle and all that. :')

Hope you enjoy the reading! At least, I've enjoyed the writing.

Earliest known history (Pthumerians)

★ The Great One Flora acts as the Moon Presence (status), while Fauna, the Great One Beast, is a GO that was supposed to be another side of the same coin. Flora back then displayed no signs of beasthood unlike when we meet her. Fauna is based off the name mentioned in cut content about "living livers" ( x ), as well as the cut content boss Great One beast ( x )!

★ Flora and Fauna fought over mortals and how to govern them. Flora represended the guiding light (moonlight and arcane), but Fauna suggested granting them the light allowing autonomy and studying the world and evolution how they seen fit (fire and electricity). During this time of disagreement, Loran was amongst the first Pthumerian civilizations to rise to prominence, and a man from it, called Fort, sided with Fauna and helped to overpower Flora and consume her guts, which by effect meant consuming her unborn Oedon. (Fort is a name I took from cut fight of Loran Cleric ( x ))

★ Fort and Fauna became allies, and the Loran Clerics are the result of the ministration Fort started. Beasthood began spreading not only as a result of that Pthumerian blood ministration but also because of Oedon, living and growing up as a formless voice within mortals’ blood, reveling in bloodshed, wrath and the hunt as the only instinctive way to reconnect with their mother.

Rise of Pthumeru Ihyll and Isz

★ Civilisation of Isz has been the one revering the Moon earlier than anyone else, in hopes of safety and recovering the connection with Great Ones that once was. Amongst them, a man has been visited by the blessing of Moon Presence, forging the Holy Moonlight Sword.

★ Meanwhile, the place that would later be Pthumeru Ihyll has been simply building their walls. Idola, a crow-like Great One from Blazing Hell (that becomes Nightmare Frontier) gathers sympathy for them and sacrifices her blood to grant this civilisation pyromancy to be much safer from Beasthood. Pthumerians then would help her to adapt to living like a mortal, wearing their accessories and fighting with their swords, as well as Keepers of the Old Lords would later burn their bodies and souls in reverence. Idola's name would get lost in history later, but- yes, she is the Mergo's Wet Nurse. The name Idola is taken from the voice line from Huntsmen mob, "Idola will be the judge!" ( x ) ( x )

★ The first hero of the Moon and Queen Yharnam become allies to finally murder Fauna, whereas Fort is taken to would-be Pthumeru Ihyll and forced into unholy marriage ritual to conceive Mergo, the first Child of Blood. Their 'birth' would go wrong and they'd instead fuse into being physically a part of Queen Yharnam, essentially becoming that comedic "genius infant" trope xd Hence Mergo's Attendants existing to begin with and being able to follow them everywhere.

★ Loran was gone almost entirely, especially with the curse of Flora that would cause those afflicted by beasthood to have stillborn infants (Bastard of Loran). It is as simple as carrying a "sin" with blood transfusion, since what started it WAS Fauna eating her, and then exchanging with Fort. After many years of practicing beasthood very efficiently, even branching between 'electric' type and 'fire' type like they were "schools", they had to stop under risk of their civilization going completely extinct, brace themselves and pray that enough of them survives and can have children. The ones that could still think, move and had the least beasthood signs fleed very far away, having mingled with the humans and now living in a land called New Loran. (running ahead a bit - Henryk's family are descendants of 'electric' Loranites, and Laurence's family are descendants of 'fire' Loranites!)

★ As for the 'crow from Hell' symbolism, and the fact that Nightmare was domain of Flora by effect of being production of nightmares of people cursed with the "sin", that time effectively Heaven and Hell, or Dream and Nightmare, united against a shared enemy, you know? So the legends (completely palatable) and the sentiment still lives on even at the time of the game events:

(Proof that this is Beltran, not Norbert/Herbert by word of Lance McDonalds ( x ), this guy is a legend of datamining, especially cut + hidden content, that can be trusted!)

★ Isz and Pthumeru Ihyll picked a little different ways to go about Great Ones; whereas Isz was studying Eldrich Truth as is and relying on the blessing and will of the 'Moon', Pthumeru Ihyll, of course, were attempting to deal with Earth and Cosmos on their own terms. So, similarly to Queen Yharnam having Mergo, the chief in Isz had Ebrietas, the very first known Celestial Child! Celestial Children are blessing of the Moon Presence (Flora or Oedon), whereas Children of Blood are conceived artificially when the chosen Queen of Blood gathers enough "power" by consuming Blood Dregs (effectively, souls of the deceased), to eventually have unholy marriage with Ring of Betrothal with the chosen spouse as one last "sacrifice". Since Queen Yharnam was no longer able to have another child, permanently "pregnant", her brother Cain would continue the bloodline that'd mix with humans frequiently to suppress the "gene" of becoming a living dead or a bat-like monster, and eventually becomes Cainhurst royals:

(Internal filenames here on Wiki page: ( x ))

★ Gosum (eng: Kosm), priest back in Isz has been a tier between mortals and the cosmos no less than Ebrietas herself, and effectively used to be what Rom is now - a guardian of the barrier between two worlds. Lake and Sea runes both mention large body of a water serving as a barrier between worlds! However, she was lured by the Deep Sea and parasites living within it that eternally fuel starvation for more knowledge, choosing her own path as opposed to doing the Moon's bidding. The details of her ascension are a blur for me, but two things matter:

★ She would extinguish the Blazing Hell, which I headcanon so because Nightmare Frontier has columnar basalt formation that are known to form around volcanic activity, and Nightmare Realm in general has many formations that look like melted together human faces - easily previously eternally burning souls, now freed. Some Sea runes are also found in Nightmare Frontier. Moreover, I think Kos Parasites look QUITE similar not only to Brainsucker faces, but also to Crawlers that reside in poisonous swamps in the Frontier!

★ It seems that Chalice Dungeons have been flooded, and I feel like Kos/Kosm, as Great One could've also done that as one effort to bury the beasthood for good. Besides, Chalice Dungeons have a whale-like corpse that is also found in Fishing Hamlet!

Tying to the newer era and Byrgenwerth

★ Pthumerians became a rarer type of mortals due to various forms of decay carrying from their ancient, unholy practices. They were starting to mingle with the humans more, cultures mixing a lot. A lot of ancient legends and religion carried on, some Pthumerians were still around, beasthood remained more-or-less surviving (especially in Loranites, such as Suspicious Beggar), minimal contact with the Great Ones endured (mostly Amygdalas and Oedon).

★ Basically, Pthumerians and humans have been coexisting in the world since forever, but there became much less Pthumerians because of what they did with beasthood, blood and ascension. They inflicted all types of curses on their kind, and most of them have been making families with humans with initial purpose to 'clean' their genes and blood, since humans were not bearing curses. ...yet, lol. There are many people in Yharnam with Pthumerian+human genes. There were other queens later on that would be named Yharnam +number, and Yharnam used to be a monarchy for a long while. My friend @val-of-the-north posted our headcanons and observations on the topic here in more detail ( x ), but the shortest explanation - Hemwick to Cainhurst is what Hintertombs was to Pthumeru Ihyll! Although, eventually Cainhurst became closer to oligarchy than morarchy.

+ I also need to add that Yahar'gul was a more secluded district of almost exclusively Pthumerians that went their separate way from Pthumeru Ihyll and Loran after their "conflict", and lived in secrecy for many years. Their main interest was in connecting with Amygdalas again, which is what kept them connected with Byrgenwerth and later, with Healing Church.

★ Aside of older Yharnamites (mostly Cainhurst) and new Loranites, there was another very distinct group of Pthumerians+humans people - nomads from Isz civilization! They mostly travelled on the ships, unable to find a permanent place to live, but apparently adoped [insert default language of the setting] as their basic one, almost forgetting Pthumerian language, save for few words/spells. One time a particularly strong storm completely wrecked their ships. The ones who survived could've sworn that they saw a blue 'syren', that would create a belief that the long lost Great One that became almost just a legend in their people was real, and favouring them. They've finally settled on the shore for permanent home, being a simple humble Fishing Hamlet. This one is harder to define how many centuries ago happened, but they believed Kos was there, and some fishmen even reported having actually seen her!

★ This one is a long time skip, but when Fishing Hamlet was under serious threat of destruction over natural disasters, diseases and even external enemies that wanted to destroy their humble hamlet, they attempted to summon Kos in their despair (which I believe happened since Fish people speak as though they've failed to protect her from the hunters after having beckoned her…). Kos was there for them, though, and they'd form a symbiosis; they were desperate for protection, and she was desperate for community and the mortal(ish?) things she once defied. They'd mutate into fish people as a side effect, similarly to how Amygdalas' devotees could become spider people (Nightmare Apostles). The word about a village full of strange fish people would spread somewhat as rumours not many believed at the time... Besides, Kos had a habit to crash the ships of people that would bring harm to the hamlet. She could tell who was an enemy!

★ Byrgenwerth was formed as institution of archeology and history when Willem was still young, and used to be rather close and friendly with Cainhurst - both as their main sponsors and as the closest thing to the weird rituals and culture of the past.

★ Before scholars such as Micolash, Laurence, Rom etc rolled in, but when Karel (eng: Caryll) was already helping, they've heard a beast howling. It was one of the surviving ones in the dungeons that was supposed to remain sealed by dungeon rituals after the flooding... The reason it managed to break free was that in this same time, Kos became pregnant, that made her unable to dwell in the waters anymore! So she was beached. That broke HER concealment, letting some previously unseen horrors loose and seen. Caryll was able to decipher his first rune, whereas Willem took Dores and Gatekeeper with him and managed to do quite a huge breakthrough!

★ Gehrman was hired to help with the exploration of the dungeons! At that same time, Cainhurst has been struggling to retract their lost legacy and relics from their cursed undead ancestors, as you could see Cainhurst-esque armour scattered all over the dungeons! It was not helping that ever since concealment dropped, Cainhurst's problems with people becoming Bloodlickers ended up dialed up to 11. They are basically Vileblood equivalent of the beasts- not to mention that when humans with such ancestry turn, they develop Hatefull Maggots (those annoying parasites crawling in the pit at Cainhurst, in the secret cave in the Woods, as well as occupying some Silverbeasts in Nightmare Realm and the headles Blood-letting Beast). Basically, they were in trouble both in the dungeons and within their own castle! Gehrman was able to help Cainhurst warriors fight better against the agile beasts, as heavy armours and shields were not effective. As a result, armours of the Guardians got slightly lighter, some new weapons got commissioned, and new type of a noble warrior, Cainhurst Knights, was developed. Maria was the first to adapt to his tactics, and the first to adapt the new drip! Instead of that heavy armour one.

★ One of the results of delving deeper into dungeons and Pthumerian secrets and seeking 'eyes' led to the og Byrgenwerth idiots creating a ritual of summoning Amygdalas. All that it really did was causing a mini meteorite rain that did not touch Yharnam too much (unlike the city where Simon came from after having survived). But, it did make some meteorites grow within Forbidden Woods. A larger one, though, was used by Gehrman to make his Burial Blade.

★ By the time the scholars we all love (and hate) enrolled in Byrgenwerth, Willem already had a hunch about how important Third Umbilical Cords were. And rumours about Fishing Hamlet and a pregnant Great One in there started spreading, since the place became visible for the travellers. That would include people from "faraway land" that Cainhurst was tight-knit with, too. In the end, Willem sends Byrgenwerth warriors (Gehrman and his idiots) over to search the eyes, and especially the infant Great One. ("Mother killed, her baby stolen"). Almost everyone were content, having murdered "monsters that were no longer people anyway"... Maria, of course, was not. But thus, plenty of "internal eyes" and one (1) cord was obtained for Byrgenwerth's research.

★ Byrgenwerth, in fact, has had a compromise between importance of Holy Blood and Eyes Inside. Isz people having transcended the human plane was a knowledge right there, and Eye, a rune that is a voice of Ebrietas, became the symbol of Willem's research! However Sedative, a blood-based medicine made specifically to deal with Eldrich truth causing Frenzy, was made AT Byrgenwerth, too! Not to mention what Alfred says. Basically, blood HAVING been relevant in Byrgenwerth too is important for the next part!

Early Healing Church

★ I have already talked about why I am not using "Laurence founded Healing Church after he abandoned Byrgenwerth" and instead think Byrgenwerth and Healing Church used to be one at first in this ( x ) post! So I won't dwell too much on this, but yeah. Willem was the Pope (the first and the last) of the Healing Church, but mostly remained within Byrgenwerth. He was both a headmaster of the Byrgenwerth and the leader of (new) religion! Just like that, the "healing" had to do with both the Blood and the Eyes, as both were ties to the Great Ones. Holy Blood DID originate from the Great One, at least from what Willem and Caryll learned, together with some help from best minds of Hemwick and Cainhurst.

★ The ways to deal with the Eye Cord though, remained a mystery. Sure-way to ascend would be to eat three of them, so what would they do? Summon a Great One, so the resulting Bloodmoon would make women spawn divine infants that they would murder and eat them? It was.. drastically inefficient AT LEAST. At some point, Micolash and his younger sister Rom deviced a plan to steal the Eye Cord from Willem, swim on the boat at the big lake on the full moon night and attempt summoning Kos, hoping for a favour in return of OoK's cord; so, return of her child's restless spirit. Kos blessed the siblings with the knowledge of obtaining internal eyes with the water and brain flud, whereas Micolash became her "emissary", with the magic and the skill to spread this upon others. Rom was still as human as she could be, it was not true Kos' belssing yet, but rather a direction to the next step for humanitu. A guidance, if you will. After that event, their brown eyes also became pale blue. Thus, Rom would become Patient Zero, and samples from her altered body would be further used for Research Hall experiments.

★ That being said, Grand Cathedral and the Research Lab in the Clocktower were built at the same time! Laurence became the Vicar of Willem. Not "actually should not be be a Bishop?", not "founder/head of the Church". Specifically the guy that REPLACES the actual head of the Church while they are absent! However, he's been way more busy with the blood ministration on the main floor than the experiments. And Willem was very busy at Byrgenwerth. Research Hall as a result was not supervised by the two leaders enough, overseen almost entirely by Maria. And that white church lady we meet in the Hunter's Nightmare praying at the altar. Yet, that still left loopholes for some doctors to do questionable experiments... Micolash, for example. We will get to it soon!

★ Ludwig became the first Church Hunter, having had weird business with Laurence "and his nameless Moon Presence". I have explained slight convolutions with his clothes and sword in this ( x ) post, so to be short: Ludwig was wearing what is now Executioner Set since all Church's clothes (including Tomb Prospector's garb) were BASED on Executioner's set, and Laurence used his own knowdledge of rituals, blood, eyes and Great Ones to blindfold Ludwig and plan his "enlightenment". Ludwig was able to envision the Holy Moonlight Sword and Guidance, becoming very useful. (Laurence would've done that himself, but just in case things would've gone wrong, why not try with someone else first......?)

+ So, Ludwig would start the production of silver blades (Ludwig's Holy Blade) in the image of the legendary sword he's envisioned and could recreate in exact detail! We will get to the actual HMS soon!

+ @bimbomcgee Had a headcanon recently that Healing Church needed their own hunters because Old Hunters started to seriously get out of control (except for maybe Gehrman and Maria, ol' reliable) and Church needed ones easier to control, and I honestly believe it! During this time, more and more Gehrman's hunters would become "heretical" - Oto Workshop doing their own thing (and do not forget the person that drops their badge is Bestial Hunter!), Izzy and Archibald turning to literally using beasthood for their ADVANTAGE, some like Henryk simply being too independent (and too nosy about what was not their business), Old Hunters in general being way more vulnerable to beasthood with their aggressive, ruthless ways lacking "chilvarly"... Both being able to carry on ways of 'holiness' and being more easy to control became needed.

+ Gehrman lost his right leg around this time too, having thus created a superstition amongst Old Hunters to wear double-wrapped belt around this leg, or even wear special metals. Healing Church hunters never started doing that, though, believing that whatever caused "beasthood to creep up from the right leg" did not threaten them as they were "too holy" for that!

★ Pressure on "holiness" would eventually lead the hermit Rogeriusz (eng: Logarius) to the Healing Church - a Pthumerian especially resentful of having accursed ancestry and especially antsy about the "baaaaad" and "eeeevil" bloody magic. Cainhurst + Vilebloods seem to have special attitude towards 'Moon', and characters like Fauxsefka and Maria are the more apparent indications of Vilebloods + relatives that resent their "ancestry sins" and instead want to turn for "salvation" (Stars and Moon). ( x ) In any case, a secret Executioners workshop formed!

★ Around this time, Laurence would either do that himself or allow someone else do that, but Cainhurst would get on track with the ancient "child of blood" heir antics, as Annalise would now be sending Guards to seek Blood Dregs for her. Something that would be later blamed on "a traitor from Byrgenwerth brought the blood in Cainhurst and created unholy covenant".

★ The rumours of what was going in Cainhurst only further made Maria feel disconnected from her vampire-ish family... But at the same time, she could no longer feel her place amongst hunters. At the very least, Research Hall promised some eventual evolution past bloodthirst (literal and figural).

★ Blood Saints would aid the Hunters under rule of one blood vial per person. "Grooming" was a mistake on localization part and original speaks about "being treated / (physically) altered", so I assume they would undergo a surgery altering bone marrow, thus giving them a unique blood type. Meanwhile, most people would come for blood ministration in Grand Cathedral, as we can see the beds in its Nightmare version. Rarer - to Blood Ministers (type of Old Hunters, same as one at the intro cutscene). But the demand would grow too big as Yharnam itself was not doing very well... It was a Victorian era! A lot of illnesses would strike. For example, from Eileen's mask we learn she arrived from a plague-ridden place herself. So, Laurence would've had a (bad) idea of mass-healing people at Old Yharnam, using a blood of a beast. It was a poisoned Blood-Starved Beast of all things, too, and it'd spread the illness of Ashen Blood that once undone Loran's population. ( x )

★ Meanwhile in Research Hall, more and more patients would start to get too scared of the horrors of the Deep Sea no matter how much Micolash yelled at them and seek the 'Stars' for salvation instead. It was starting to look more and more (for Healing Church) that the 'Sea' was a dead end, and they needed to go back to Isz' roots. So, Tomb Prospectors would slowly get redirected to explore Isz dungeons instead, with the Loch Shields previously used in rituals conducted in Research Hall now distributed to them.

★ Healing Church was also starting to get more and more enemies, often because of the "precautionary" Black Church Doctors murdering anyone who'd as much as be SUSPECTED of developing beasthood. And their family too, just in case. Since Yharnamites learned that if they see a Black Doctor - they should fucking RUN, Harrowed Hunters like Simon were employed, to look like unassuming beggars nobody would pay attention to, to assasinate "suspected to be sick with beasthood" in more secretive fashion. Yet Research Hall was running low on amount of patients - simply volunteers and imprisoned "enemies of the Church" were no longer enough, so at some point Simon and others were instructed to instead bring people suspected to be afflicted in Research Hall! "You help us with experiments and we help you by potentially curing your beasthood!" (second floor of Research Hall has patients running on their four like beasts, as well as Blood Ministers and a Beast Blood Pellet). That was the start of Simon's suspicions.

★ Some people started to illegally (?) transport the "miraculous holy blood" abroad to sell it. Valtr's group was sent to investigate one of such bands, only to find the last one of them turning into a beast before their eyes, having downed all the supply himself! His group would chase the beast, with his three buddies being killed and Valtr murdering and eating the beast. While he was still shocked and exhausted, he was taken into Research Hall. To be "helped", because who knows what EATING a beast did... There, he got the weird inhuman noise he started hearing after eating a beast deciphered into a Rune (a big mistake) and helped to run by one of the patients. Valtr would find his place amongst Old Hunters, and especially Djura, whose hatred towards beasts was unfathomable back then after his mentor from (now gone) Oto Workshop became a beast too.

★ Exchange with the foreign cities was more active than ever, especially a country where Brador and our playable hunter are from. Like 80% of the staff in Healing Church would be foreigners, which I believe is suggested by clothes design choices! Especially those who were trying to leave bad past behind, or whose job/institution/home place crumbled. Gascoigne arrived and joined in too.

★ One of the foreigners happened to come from the country that honoured Sky Burial traditions, and thus covenant of Hunters of Hunters started!

Hunter's Dream creation

★ Adeline died in the end in Maria's arms, after which Maria gave Laurence an Eye Pendant that was Adeline's eye (Eye Pendants ARE patients' eyes, I think!), saying it is what Adeline would have wanted since she believed thanks to Laurence she was able to "mean" something and it was like... the last thing she talked about. Maria did add that she did not agree with it, of course.

★ Somewhere around Research Hall's last days, Maria was able to figure something was very wrong about what Micolash has been doing and convinced Brador to get the word out for her seeing that he tormented patients either in vain or for evil purposes. Healing Church / Laurence would not listen to her, but would to one of two closest people. (She was right on the money with that one; Micolash has been deliberately turning patients towards the Sea and tormenting them, as their horror and pain would be the needed catalyst for Hunter's Nightmare to exist. Only rage and blood-hunger of the hunters would not be enough... because they were not hurt, nor they were sorry. But, he has been crafting their future Hell, following will of Kos' wrath all along. (Besides, he just really wanted to see her again).)

★ Maria killed herself shortly, still choosing to be buried near Old Workshop and not in Cainhurst. She left that in her dying will, specifying it was not because of fond feelings for her times as a Hunter, but because "Old Hunters workshop was where she truly died" (implying her ruined innocence and stepping on the path of a killer). As heart-wrecking as it was for Gehrman, he respected that, but became very aloof and absorbed in his grief, creating the Doll.

★ With Gehrman completely losing the spirit and quitting the hunt himself, becoming just a grandpa in a wheelchair offering advice, Djura became an Old Hunter around which other ones of that type flocked. Henryk, Valtr.... most of them.

★ Maria's words were not lost in vain though! Micolash got discovered and demoted. Well, they never learned that he has been devicing a Nightmare, but they did learn that his experiments were pointless and malicious in some way, it was enough. Micolash took his frustration out on Rom and "disowning" her as his sister. Rom, being very innocent, emotional and naive person, that also has been growing as an orphan separated from Micolash since birth before, felt the most intense pain of "no longer having family" and downed a bit too much 'water' a bit too much brain fluid to attempt ending her own life... Yet, that triggered the vision of Kos "adopting" her, and became a TRUE blessing with eyes for her. This is important! After what Kos did with Rom, she would become the most effective translator between Ebrietas and humans, in a way so light that Runes would not even do that. And so, Micolash won his position back in Healing Church's staff. Moreover, what happened to Rom made it a staple to use children, especially orphans, for communication with Great Ones! The scientists concluded that clearly Great Ones will gravitate towards a child yearning for a family more likely... So, this is why orphans specifically. It is unique combination of emotions that Rom was very close to.

★ Tomb Prospectors of Isz did a breakthrough by returning Isz Chalice back on the surface. Soon, real Holy Moonlight Sword was found and Ludwig could finally have it, though it aided both him and Laurence as sort of a 'phone' with Moon Presence! (lol) And eventually, they were able to meet Ebrietas. Only... they still had no idea how to even communicate with her.

★ HERE Rom became an important person, and Conductor of the Choir, with Willem becoming STRONGLY more leaning towards the 'Eyes' side of the Healing Church. Had he not been busy with Byrgenwerth, he'd lead the Choir himself now, especially as one who managed to memorize Eye rune the first. But more or less, Choir was their side. Healing Church started to seriously split into 'Eyes' and 'Blood' sides, with Laurence being more busy with 'Blood'.

★ Remember Annalise's Child of Blood? After Maria's death, it became especially convenient time to finally let all the resentment against "unholy" clan break and strike Cainhurst! They did so to both remove the next strongest political power... and to abort Annalise's newborn, and take its Third Umbilical Cord! The bit about the cord in Workshop being aborted by Executioners was patched out ( x ), there is still a visual evidence with bloody trial reaching under Annalise's skirt, as well as her hair having lost color. We can see Annalise is a redhead from the portrait of her and from concept art, yet we meet her with colorless hair! Similarly, Arianna's hair loses color after she gives her birth!

★ Cainhurst got exterminated and Logarius inherited curse of the King after slaying him, along with the crown. He kind of ended up facing his worst nightmare, but considered it worth "protecting" the rest of the humanity from. Laurence took the cord.

+ Arianna's mother ran away from the massacre while still being pregnant, hence why her noble dress is burgundy and not grey (wrote this theory here: ( x )). Bloody Crow did not want to run, but Annalise ordered him to.

★ It is said that Yharnam was burnt "on that moonlit night", whereas Powder Kegs were the ones burning it. From that I concluded that Laurence did the bait-and-switch to give Flora Gehrman instead of a GO baby on the night when Old Yharnam was being burnt! Additionally, Djura was the first Dreaming Hunter immortal for a whole night, but also the only one that hunted alongside the Dream for more than one night.

★ That Bloodmoon was not concealed as Rom was not doing that yet. As a result, a lot of mess happened, but the most important one was Amygdalas appearing. The smallest one was murdered by the hunters, yet events around Amygdalas allowed detection of hidden Yahar'gul and gave Micolash some ideas.

★ Djura eventually quit the hunt, with Djura's Apprentice leaving Old Yharnam but closing the door on his way out and slapping that note on it x) He went on his own way. Other hunters that used to flock around Djura (Valtr, Henryk, that one-eyed patient that once helped Valtr to run and afterwards ran herself, etc) also left him. Some were more bitter about it than the others.

★ Valtr finally revealed his vision of human dregs to Henryk and Madaras twins, banking on the fact that they would have simpler time accepting what "should be done" than others. And he did need to keep remaining friends close. He already made some enemies over it before, but Henryk had his own gripes with human dregs as his family was afflicted, and the twins were very... simple? being raised by an ancient snake? Younger twin killed the older twin and his snake, as they were FULL of Vermin, but the three became closer than ever.

★ In order to leave all possible accusations towards the Healing Church out of the way, Laurence shifts the public blame to Byrgenwerth. Blood ministration was Healing Church's thing, so how came Cainhurst started doing that too, albeit in a "wrong" way? Right, it was a "traitor from Byrgenwerth"! This is when he prohibits going to Byrgenwerth, and Willem accepts that too. He did kind of want to "gatekeep from the plebs" by then anyways, seeing what both blood and Eldrich Truth did to people who were not ready. However, the secret passageway through the cave has been used to still secretly communicate with Byrgenwerth. Laurence himself maybe didn't, but some high ranking Church members would.

★ Sustaining the hunt through the Dream would make researching on how TO undo beasthood easier, so, Healing Church started focusing on researching much more than on healing. Like... Not just weird experiments in the Clocktower, but they would commit to it. All that hassle to treat as many people as they could was gone, Grand Cathedral became just a place of meeting (no more beds for the patients etc). Choir needed to work faster, and Laurence was doing what he could with what he was able to find - Choir's findings, Tomb Prospectors' lore drops and relics, weird creatures he could cut open on his own, all that. He used to pass letters to Gehrman through Dreaming Hunters if he met one, too.

★ Laurence and Ludwig came to an agreement to start training commoners to hunt and defend themselves (Yharnam Hunter set). Laurence because he really wanted Church hunters to instead explore the dungeons and pursue all sorts of "heretics", enemies of the Church, and the numbers were only so big... Ludwig because he is an actually decent person and cared for people's safety if hunters could not help everyone. But yeah, you could see why it is complicated and Laurence needed all resources he could have on research...

School of Mensis and other "heretics"

★ Micolash and Rom start scheming behind everyone's backs yet again. (okay, this sentence should have been the title of this section xD) They both could tell that something was 'wrong' behind Stars and Moon, that the Choir has been walking towards the dead end without any real hope for humanity. They needed to look beyond the veil, even if that was "blasphemious" and risky. Byrgenwerth had barely the link with Amygdalas; Gardens of Eyes were rare Research Hall patients that would accept the help from Amygdalas to not "drown", becoming their Kin, but not much could be gained from them. Byrgenwerth simply took them in, since unlike Living Failures, these lived. But by now the siblings had enough clues that this 'branch' of Kin was the key.

★ Micolash would depart with a dozen of men, including Damian, as well as (real) Iosefka and a single celestial larvae. He figured to feed it human blood and flesh to the point it'd become "fallen" and turn into a baby Amygdala instead, as he was able to discover Amygdalas and Celestial Children had shared origins. Since it got attached to him as its dad, it would not harm him, but would become a bridge between mortals and other, 'hostile' Amygdalas. That allowed communication between the Choir detractors, Amygdalas and Yahar'gul. Denizens of Yahar'gul agreed to take Micolash and his idiots in upon a very great favour of returning their long lost "evil gods" to them, and cooperation with Amygdalas for more knowledge in exchange for human sacrifices was formed.

★ Micolash also ended up gathering whatever "heretics" he could to build his new place. Archibald, Izzy, Caryll... He was basically 'picking what Healing Church had dropped', being able to get along with anyone who had open mind. After what Micolash did with Yahar'gul, Patches also "wanted to know his location" xd He was cranky about the church boy having helped so much, as he also used to be a Byrgenwerth scholar but disappeared as soon as they decided to start a religion institution. But he certainly was on the same page as Micolash and Rom, and could see the corrupt institutions being a thing not only within mortals, but even within aliens. Everyone who was shunned for their different beliefs found help in Yahar'gul, being allowed to research anything without restrictions, in exchange for THEIR help.

★ Rom was one of the first people to connect her soul with Amygdalas, becoming a Nightmare Apostle (this is what 'Spider' is). She became affiliated not only with the Sea, but also with the Nightmare, being able to see even more things than before. In a way, Micolash used her similarly to how Laurence once used Ludwig - the "trial run" to peer into something. Rom was sharing with Micolash in secrecy, choosing to still stay within the Choir to help them. She knew they'd destroy her if they knew what she did, and what Micolash's crimes she was aware of and covered, but she believed that maybe she could gradually "help" them to stand on a more efficient way than Stars and Moon. The sneaky way. As far as Choir was concerned, she was their Conductor.

★ Laurence likewise knew of School of Mensis and even helps them with kidnapping, as well as now giving the prisoners to them. He would not restrict the research of Arcane as "ends justify the means", but as far as the public was concerned, Healing Church had no involvement. If Micolash got caught by the public, he would not sacrifice anything to defend him, not even the purity of his public image.

★ Edgar joins the Choir. He used to be a teacher in one of the schools under Healing Church, but became nosy seeing that Choir members kept taking his pupils that'd lose parents after nights of the hunt. Being very smart, capable and open-minded (in the worst sense of the concept), he was able to negotiate joining them instead of being sent to prison for learning too much.

+ Henryk was another person suspicious of the Choir taking orphans to "protect" them only for them to never be seen again. He started to adopt those of them he could find after the nights, so they could not be taken since he'd be their father, and Viola was one of such kids.

★ Valtr took the helmet from the one-eyed patient that kept trying to treat "impurity" instead of destroying it and became a monster. It only further proven him that he was right, and he founded a proper 'League' to exterminate it. Izzy, friend of Djura ever since he started to protect the beasts, has been observing him closely and pretended to want to join the League so he could share the vision of Vermin with her. It was a big mistake, as Izzy has been secretly using found Vermin to research 'nature of humanity' further. Which in her case meant "How to normalize beasthood as new way of living and severe the ties of mortals with the corrupt Moon Presence?"

★ Archibald kept failing at placing Darkbeast's scattered bones together, as they'd electrocute if too many of them got combined. But Micolash could tell that Izzy was the key, seeing that what she discovered in Loran dungeons was a bond with Fauna similar to what he had with Kos. He was able to invoke Izzy's wrath and unleash that power by pretending to have murdered Archibald, in which she pulled the Darkbeast together. It was named Paarl, and Archibald got more resources for research than ever. Yahar'gul had plenty of weapons against Choir's Kin.

★ These events led to Izzy eventually becoming emissary of Fauna and turning into a large electric flying beast (not birdlike!). She flew into Yamamura's "faraway country" in frantic search of a distant place to spread beasthood to, so it could never disappear, but spent so much power by cursing his entire village that all she could really do anymore is to run away from him. About a month or two later, the circle would lock where Izzy returned in Yharnam. Yamamura kept trying to murder her with his sword with no success, stabbing and stabbing her in near-madness, until Valtr approached him and offered his Whirligig Saw instead. As Izzy was dead, Valtr picked a damaged hat that was attached to her horn and placed it on Yamamura's head like a trophy. Afterwards, Yamamura would fix this hat a bit and accept it, as well as invitation to the League.

★ At this point, many old hunters start leaving to never be seen again, mostly those who'd want to find the same epiphany as Izzy once did (NPCs literally labelled "Izzy's Successor"). Vitus also left.

Deaths of Laurence and Ludwig

★ Yamamura has been restless, wanting to find where the monster that cursed his village came from, but his only clue were 'sparks'. All while League's "mission" kept proving being too much for him. Valtr sent him off to mingle within Healing Church hunters under guise of wanting him to spy on them, but he hoped that Yamamura would not want to come back to the League (seen what happens with people that are not qualified for the "mission" from previous helmet owner). Yamamura got his Chikage from a pile of things Executioners retracted from Cainhurst, loving it as it reminded him of home. He loved being by Ludwig's side, trusting that whatever shady things Healing Church has been doing was none of his fault. He also became friends with Simon that had suspicions of the Healing Church too, as well as with Gratia that failed to fit within Church hunters after Old Hunters disbanded. In fact, they all were outcasts within the Holy Blades, but funny enough Ludwig was the only one nice to them xd Best boss ever.

★ Yamamura's curiousity, following the 'bolts', eventually would lead him to get kidnapped by Yahar'gul. He managed to escape thanks to Antal and another Yahar'gul Hunter, that guy we find in Church's cell, though! When he and this hunter reunited with Gratia and Simon, they were on the way to seek Ludwig's help. They wanted to tell him what Healing Church was secretly guilty of! Unfortunately, whereas Ludwig feigned concern and fear, he did rat them out to Laurence and they were dealt with shortly, only Simon escaping. They never learned Ludwig betrayed them, though, but also Ludwig's guilt made him even more paranoid and dependent on his 'Guidance' than he's already been. His willpower gave a true crack after that situation, and becoming a beast himself was just a matter of time.

★ Seeing what has been happening with Ludwig, Laurence started to lose faith in cosmos and evolution through that way. It occured to him that Insight addicts could be no better than beasts, after all. He succumbed to holy blood completely, thinking it'd be the only way to evolve while still remaining human enough, eventually abandoning his goals, his research and Gehrman. When he became a beast, Brador mercy-killed him.

★ Explaining how came the most holy person in the city became a beast was a tricky situation, but Ashton, who'd become the next Vicar (Amelia was just a child in that time) had a great idea. He instantly blamed foreigners for the bad influence, especially Brador who both was a foreigner and always way too close to Laurence, and somehow... it worked? People actually bought that the holy blood itself was fine, but the illness and beasthood was something brought by foreigners. It was when the stigma against foreigners truly began, to the point of Healing Church repressing even their own staff. Many very-obviously-not-white Church hunters got shunned and instead picked by School of Mensis, having nowhere else to go to and work. Brador was very thankful for this, though! He locked himself in the underground cell, taking the bell that'd resonate with the curses (anyone who got a curse of tormented Fish peopel spirits, in his case, so, anyone who'd know of Fishing Hamlet). Ashton is also not a made-up name; this character was mentioned in cut content, as Laurence's underling ( x )! I talked about him and Herbert (Eng: Norbert) in this ( x ) post a bit more!

★ Ludwig freaked out even stronger after Laurence's death, panicking over beasthood even more than before. It was not long after he'd just kill uncontrollably, hoping to see his guidance once more because before it did appear during the hunt.. And he NEEDED it, as the only way to be safe from the same fate as Laurence... That didn't end well, obviously. Valtr was the one to murder Ludwig during searching for where'd Yamamura go.

★ Eileen happened to arrive in Yharnam around this time from plague-devoured city in which she used to be a plague doctor. It was very poorly timed, indeed, but she caught rumours about miraculous healing blood and wanted to seek it to heal her people. As a foreigner, she had to be secretive. Somewhere here, Djura's Apprentice / Simon's twin brother lost his mind completely, attacking just any human for as much as (reasonably) questioning his actions or being (reasonably) scared of the beasts around him. Eileen was the one he wanted to attack, but Brandon, a Hunter of Hunters, murdered him before he could. I took this name from cut content, since in early version Crowfeather set was called "Brandon's Set" ( x ). That's how Eileen got introduced to the concept of blood-drunkness, as well as the practice to murder such people before they become beasts.

★ Ashton appointed new Hunter Chief as Ludwig was gone too. Brandon was very suspicious of what was going to happen within the Healing Church from that point on, so he passed the mantle to Eileen, but warned her that she would not last without holy blood to herself.

★ Simon discovered traces of Byrgenwerth's crimes and Fishing Hamlet, following the detective work he used to have with his gone friends. Brador was able to murder him thanks to his bell, but because of Hunter's Nightmare including not just blood-drunk hunters and the guilty, but people who seen too much too (patients), Simon got trapped here as well.

★ Rom almost entirely lost control over Choir when during all these events, her secrets started to slip through. Realizing she knew a whole bunch about School of Mensis and said nothing they felt betrayed and considered themselves no longer needing her, except for Julie (Eng: Yurie). Not to mention her affiliation with the forces and knowledge "heretical" to the Stars and Moon... They simply let her stay there, but from that point on were using all they've learned to do their own thing, different from even Willem's teachings. Rom's point still stayed - if people are dumped all the harsh truth on without being 'prepared', it won't be comprehended.

Mensis Ritual and further decay

★ The last rune Caryll discovered was Moon. Witnessing it himself was a trigger for Micolash to think that "the time" has came and understand he had to do what Laurence did, only without switch-and-bait.

★ Vision of the Moon made Caryll lose his mind. He travelled to the Clocktower / Choir's base, in order to carve the vicious cycle on the Clocktower dial ( x ). He would make it spin in an attempt to destroy the boundary between Nightmare and reality to end everything, but was killed by Yurie just in time. However, something did happen; past this point, there were two Yharnams - the "real" one and the one halfway submerged in a dream. Think of parallel realities! This is why our Paleblood Hunter arrives in one Yharnam, but wakes up in a different one, yet they are both 'real'. After this point, nobody would be able to normally encounter this, "parallel" Yharnam. If our Hunter did not get snatched by Messengers, they'd be in a different Yharnam - without Iosefka and any of the cast, where Blood Minister is, etc. Eileen was the last one to arrive normally, before this rift. The vicious cycle, however, is now seen in Hunter's Nightmare too.

★ Since Choir's base is around Clocktower and Orphanage is in the former Research Hall (more specifically the balcony with the Lumenflowers), that event shoke it especially. Their base was half-ruined. Orphans became Celestial Emissaries, together with their overseer Laura.

★ Seeing what happened, Rom formed a bond with Ebrietas similar to what Hunter's Dream is, but it instead was creation of infinite arcane 'lake inside of lake' and concealment. It felt especially crucial after what Caryll has done. Her real body fully mutated into a Spider, and then got instantly petrified. Thus, Rom became a perfect life form, combining all three cosmic affiliations (marine, celestial and nightmare/cursed). Her barrier remained penetrable only for those who are "ready" (remember that we can still hear Mergo cry even through her concealment if we have enough Insight!). From this point on, most mortals were 'safe': Rom protected them from cosmic horrors whereas Gehrman's immortal Paleblood Hunters were protecting people from beasts every fullmoon night.

★ Micolash designed hexagonal cages that would allow Mensis scholars (or anyone wearing one, really) to see through Rom's concealment without their brain exploding into slugs, and Archibald built them.

★ Remember how if flesh of murdered Annalise is offered on Altar of Grief, she gets resurrected? This property of Rom is the result of combining marine and cursed Arcane knowledge; Sea offers death and rebirth, whereas Nightmare Apostles can't die (no, seriously, Patches is back even after you kill him, he just doesn't interact now). Micolash knew of this property. As long as someone's soul is still alive, Rom can make them raise again! With the help of Queen Killer, a rare veteran that survived Cainhurst massacre, School of Mensis went to search retract the remains of ancient Queen Yharnam.

★ Brandon's true intentions were discovered and he got executed. All in all, Ashton adapted to new position very quickly, being a bit more oppressive than Laurence if that was even possible. The idea was that Laurence's successors would continue studying properties of the holy blood and find how to keep humans safe and healthy but avoid beasthood, yet the bastard gave into corruption just like *snaps fingers* that. He also normalized cannibalism within the Church's walls, now eating imprisoned enemies of the Church more often than giving them away for research (mostly Mensis'). Or feeding them to others. In a way, though, Ashton was correct - the best way to not lose oneself to beasthood was being a beast "a little bit, as a treat". By eating people sometimes. :/ Depending on the timeline, Micolash deeply resented Ashton for either tarnishing Laurence's intentions and quest (if he loved Laurence) or for complicating his research (if they were not really close). In either case, kidnappings of innocent people became new main resource for Mensis, since prisoners were no longer an option.

★ Archibald went to murder Ashton at some point, but sacrificed his own life for that. Norbert became the new Vicar, since his daughter Laura became an alien.

★ Gehrman's sanity in the Dream started to slip, and he could no longer trust himself to be genuine with the hunters. The temptation of provoking a fight and get killed by one so he could be free became too strong. As much as he hated himself for that, but he performed a ritual to animate the Doll, so he and her could take turns. For example, during game's events, it was Doll's turn to channel Blood Echoes.

★ After School of Mensis had blood/flesh/whatever of Yharnam, Micolash sent a kidnapped Choir member that he's been torturing for a while over to Choir, so they'd lay the sample on the altair. That person was completely under his control by then, so there was no problem; they are found in the cell that was locked from the inside, and were not even tied to the chair, for an indication!

(compare it with the corpse in Hemwick having very obvious ropes modelled around their arms)

So yeah, somewhere deep down in the dungeons, Queen Yharnam was resurrected, and her Mergo too. Remember that they are part of her body physically! School of Mensis "aborted" Mergo, which only required removing the cord, so they had the tool for their own ritual. (Naturally, Micolash left Queen Killer to die after his use was expired).

★ Mensis Ritual happened, summoning Wet Nurse and letting Mergo "live" yet again! But Micolash and others were taken into Nightmare themselves, since crows in lore deliver people into other planes. Because of Rom's concealment, nobody knew what happened except for Damian and Iosefka that ran away, but both were too terrified of Micolash even after his "death" to do anything, or tell anyone.

★ Choir developed the 'why do you weep fair maiden' schtick since Ebrietas became depressed upon Rom's fate. At least, everyone got cool Rosmarinus now. With the orphans completing their transformation abruptly, Choir was able to make a progress in research way faster than they anticipated, mostly much to Fauxsefka's delight.

★ Orphanage became redundant, though. At the same time, it meant that Choir would no longer take orphans in, so instead, Norbert started to adopt every other orphaned child/teen within the Church's walls. Adella, Emilia (Eng: Amelia), Henriett, (future) Cleric Beast of the Bridge and Alfred were such people. So, 'blood' faction of the Healing Church had abundance of members, whereas Choir kept losing the scientists without any new ones coming and Mensis has been strangely quiet..

★ Eileen suddenly gotten sick, as the only person in the 'new', 'parallel' Yharnam that never had blood ministration. This Yharnam started to reject her until she figured to take the holy blood. It happened on the night of the hunt, which automatically made her part of the dream that time.

More things coming to knowledge

★ Oedon Chapel becomes very unpopular at this point, rumoured to be a place full of lunatics, as a way to bury Old Hunters and let the former glory of Holy Blades to rest. Not to mention Healing Church not wanting for curious people to snoop at abandoned Choir's base for now. Gascoigne ditches Healing Church, frustrated with how little they care about the hunt anymore. It was a very 'idle' period for the Healing Church as they almost completely abandoned Yharnam and did not even bother to find a new Hunter Chief yet. Yharnamites were basically left to fend for themselves more and more so, only with the help of rare Old Hunters that still cared. It was where Henryk finally opened up to Gascoigne about the League, and also introduced him to Viola.

★ Viola and Gascoigne got married, and they had their first daughter. The second daughter would be born six years later.

★ This time period is also where Cleric Beast of the Bridge, Henriett, Amelia, Alfred and Adella grew up already. Henriett was never willing to be a Blood Saint, instead wanting to be a hunter and to actually help. Alfred was very eager too. Again, a rare sight in a sorry state of things. Alfred and Henriett became good friends, being very interested in the hunters of old times - Alfred in Executioners and Holy Blades, and Henriett in Gehrman's Old Hunters.

★ Choir members and White Doctors (scientists, basically) became less and less, more of them would dive into Chalice Dungeons for an outlet and never return (like Forgotten Madman), Ebrietas was too absent to he of help, celestial larvae kept petrifying upon some point of growing up. (notice how the statues in Upper Cathedral actually look like very eldrich creatures leaning on walk sticks and covered by a fabric in grieving manner?)

★ Edgar, Yurie and Fauxsefka, with maybe some White Doctors decided to depart into Byrgenwerth. For Yurie and Fauxsefka it was returning to their past, as they're way older than they look in my headcanons, but Edgar was a new one. (can change) They kept travelling through that secret cave. League could and would make life harder for them, though (there is a white doctor corpse in the woods). In any case, Upper Cathedral was no longer a great base for research, and they hoped to base in Byrgenwerth, or to at least get some of the remaining scholars by their side.

★ For a while, Norbert's corruption type has been eating people and taking their orphaned children with him, not letting them discover why their parents died. At last, he turned into a Cleric Beast himself, but only Amelia could put him down. He was unusually feral, unusually strong, the most vendigo-like, but he could not hurt his most beloved adopted daughter that replaced Laura to him even in that state. Amelia became a new Vicar, with the future Cleric Beast of the Bridge becoming hew Hunter Chief.

★ Alfred and Henriett have a falling out, instead becoming enemies, since Henriett finds a whole bunch about Healing Church's old crimes, as well as growing disillusioned about how "helpful" they could be. She instead fashions herself after Old Hunters, hence why this set is so similar to them, and some more younger hunters follow.

★ Brador dies somewhere around this time. Remember that his body in the cell is much older than his phantom!

★ Bloody Crow relapses after a very long time of trying to adapt to the new life and returns to killing the hunters, but consuming Blood Dregs found within them himself since he could not give any to Annalise. Compare it with becoming a drug addict sort of, as it was his only remaining way to 'connect' to what he had lost. Eileen spots him at some point, yet unaware of the real motivation with which he murders the blood-drunk hunters himself, but he is able to play along with her assumption that they wished the same thing - mercy-killing. She knew that she was becoming too old, so he becomes her apprentice, to become a successor later.

★ Speaking of successors, Amelia deliberately left none for herself! Like Henriett, she was disillusioned, only she felt too caught up in her status and too conflicted to really do anything revolutionary. She accepted her inevitable fate, hoping that the corrupt history of the Healing Church will end on her. Yharnam became basically an anarchy with her refusing to be any real authority. She did murder and eat her elders, though, so nobody could take any decisive measures. (and also because she was still mad for getting roped into Healing Church's trap since childhood) From this point on, she was just waiting for her demise and the end of everything, performing her role simply on autopilot.

★ Oho boy... Another theory link, about how the Choir discovered Nightmare of Mensis existed, and how Edgar was sent to be a spy after Micolash and then betrayed them! ( x ) To be short, I think the three discovered that something was wrong thanks to the connection of Byrgenwerth's Lecture Hall to the Nightmare Realm. Mensis Ritual was discovered, but so were true intentions of Edgar and the Choir as he betrayed the girls in the end. Micolash used his powers to permanently lock Lecture Hall away from the rest of the Byrgenwerth, leaving scholars trapped. He also sent four Shadows of Yharnam to guard the area. Dores attempts to fight them, but dies after only managing to kill one (based on the cut content where initially there were four shadows, not three).

★ Later, the tension between Fauxsefka and Yurie finally breaks. Yurie agrees with keeping Mensis Ritual concealed but ongoing, so the impact "influences" people even if they do not realize it - the weak will become beasts and die, the strong will gain Insight sooner or later. Fauxsefka curses both Yurie and Willem for being idle fence-sitters and runs away, able to pass through Shadows of Yharnam thanks to her Cainhurst roots. For Yurie though, they prove to be a bit too strong, nor she was motivated enough to chase that woman. It is not an instant transition to game's events, though! Fauxsefka still goes back and forth sometimes, mostly stopping at Iosefka's clinic, battling with Valtr whenever they meet, and experimenting on some Forbidden Woods people. Including this obscure NPC:

^ This is a door NPC in the Forbidden Woods, and her dialogue was lost in translation! In Japanese original, what she is saying makes it sound more like she hears Mergo's cries through the concealment, and I think this is pretty cool if true!

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Alright, I think this is all I needed to piece together! It was a little hard because I kept forgetting some details and characters, whereas some other things needed an extra loop of explanation. Some parts demanded so much context as though I've been writing a fanfic.. :/ Again, thanks anyone who managed to read to this point!