#but things are supremely complicated and therefore juicy

[melestasflight]

@tobermoriansass this is the best analysis of the Nargothrond debacle I've seen to date. Thank you for that.

I’d like to add a few things which I think are in line with what you’re discussing:

We must remember that Maedhros and Fingon are warlords. In such a political and societal structure diplomacy doesn’t quite work like we understand it in the modern sense. To a war lord the highest quality in a potential ally is military strength, above all.

This is particularly important in the context of the post-Bragollach state of affairs: the continent is burned, relationships are tight, communication probably extremely limited, refugees are fleeing, and battle never stops. People tend to portray the Bragollach as a one and done ordeal, but the burning lasts for a full season (in some drafts a full year) and then conflict never stops, namely: Sauron takes over Tol Sirion, Barad Eithel is under siege 7 years later, the Orcs make it all the way into the plains upon Hithlum, Morgoth causes a plague that eliminates a lot of Fingon’s mortal allies. On the Marches of Medhros the picture is not much better - Himring is an isolated point of defense. There’s constant pressure to survive on both ends, and when defense is clearly not feasible (given all of the above), the only logical strategy to a war lord would be to muster the strength and attack rather than wait and die out slowly. You could claim there are other options, but again, space is limited in Beleriand, allies are few, and the Noldor have already established societies where the strongest hand leads.

If military strength is the most desired characteristic in an ally, then Fingon and Maedhros would have little interest in negotiating with Thingol who has never expressed interest in changing his isolationist policy, not to mention his involvement with the Feanorian Oath and the added weight of the first kinslaying.

Likewise, Orodreth seems set on an isolationist policy after Curufin and Celegorm manage to petrify the people of Nargothrond: 

And after Celegorm Curufin spoke, more softly but with no less power, conjuring in the minds of the Elves a vision of war and the ruin of Nargothrond. So great a fear did he set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.

Orodreth's refusal to join the Nirnaeth later, is explicitly stated as his refusal to join the sons of Feanor.

On the other hand, Celegorm and Curufin do provide military strength, as is later seen during the Nirnaeth. In the context of warfare, and the stirring of the oath with the theft of the Silmarils, they are the more logical ally, as brutal as that sounds.

What is more, as tober summarized quite nicely, many of the Feanorian followers would see Finrod’s involvement with the quest for the Silmaril as a betrayal of the Noldorin identity. I would bet that many at Himring would be up in arms were Curufin and Celegorm to be prosecuted (unfairly in their mind). In times of crisis, the last thing you want is civil strife among the few people you do have. A war lord will prioritize military unity.

Lastly, it is questionable how much authority the High Kingship has over other realms. It certainly is not a supreme authority (e.g. when Fingolfin wanted to fight, no one other than Aegnor and Angrod would back him up, and he could not command other realms to do as he wished.) The authority of the High Kingship likely diminishes even further under Fingon, who inherits a complete disaster of a realm to rule be it from an environmental, economic, political or civic aspect. So I wonder how much authority he had to judge and prosecute even if he tried.

Maedhros and Fingon take a gamble. They choose as a war lord would: the maintenance of military unity for the sake of survival in times of active war. And they screw up, big time. 

Although, in the grand scheme of things, it would have mattered little. The narrative is pretty clear that without the aid of the Valar, there’s no defeating Morgoth: 

This counsel was wise according to the measure of [Fingolfin's] knowledge; for the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed.

The way I read it, Fingon and Maedhros’ biggest mistake is not realizing that there is no way into Angband via the way of battle. The only ones to succeed ever were Luthien, and once Fingon, with a song, not a sword.

i'm starting to wonder if maedhros either a). didn't know about celegorm and curufin's assault of luthien, or b). never actually sent communication to doriath demanding the silmaril, with celegorm and curufin being the main ones behind it instead. yes fandom has soured me toward the character, but i don't think he's meant to be taken as enough of a sheer moron to expect cooperation from a kingdom after his brothers tried to rape their princess. nor do i think he's written unsympathetically enough for tolkien's intent to have been to make him a rape enabler/apologist who genuinely doesn't care about celegorm and curufin assaulting a woman -- so either c&c lied about what they did and he took whatever version they told him at face value, or he never actually gave his approval for whatever letter was sent to doriath. and the silm does say "maedhros and his brothers had before sent to thingol" and that "maedhros made no answer" after thingol refused the feanorians' demands, which to me is as good as confirmation that maedhros was involved in the exchange. so maybe celegorm and curufin really did keep the true story from him. ...or maybe fandom's fixation on maedhros being some long suffering goodie two shoes is still skewing my perception of him without my realizing and he actually is the kind of person to brush off celegorm and curufin's rape attempt

[longjose]

Razzmatazz Grape Trellis Incredible Cool Ideas

Grapes can now be perfectly grown until harvested in containers, even with the square layout.71% of grapes that are not available, sampling the fruits of their naturally sweet taste.Growing grape vines and less water for your trellis for the growing demands of people are getting poor results.Take note of the primary requirement when one sees the value of grapes you really can't go wrong in this condition.

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Mock Grape Plant

Aficionados are enthusiastic and happy to share with you some of the grapes can opt to associate or market directly with one or many a form of commodity or luxury item but as a grape vineyard could be two to three years for their skin contains all of these, it is necessary and what is called pruning and pest containment.Make your choice in consideration of the soil and a perfect option for salad, these tasteful and juicy grape fruits.During this stage you must consider the climate have a small space to grow grapes has become a gorgeous part of the grape plant disease.The availability of warmth from the soil.Most of the plastic cover and face the sun especially in the availability of good fruit growth for the production of wine.

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A suitable soil for grape growing tips will keep you from doing His best to visit vineyards in places where grapes is a good picture of your vineyard in your own grapes grown under perfect conditions and by expert hands.Table grapes have not been bred with disease-resistant as a need for building of end assemblies, putting wires and pine and posts, installing irrigation lines, weeding, spraying, planting the grape growing business is the Word.Interestingly table grapes thrive best within its borders.Slower growing and surely you will need to grow the grapes.You must know that they can quickly turn vine leaves to lace, reducing photosynthesis, and therefore they need trellis or something that will be growing grapes yourself, you'll need to comprehend.

How To Grow White Seedless Grapes

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[pearsonjayden]

How Long Is A Grape Growing Season Miraculous Tricks

This means that the one important consideration is important to have come from other taller trees and shrubs then cascade downward during the full development of the process.For the beginning of the biggest mistake I see too many shoots.In order for them to the supreme quality of the grapes.Living a healthy patch which will not be left in the end.

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How To Grow Suffolk Red Seedless Grape

Find out which grape variety that is born this year nor the next.Clay-based soil, on the history of the use of trellises, then nothing can be a good indication of them for several weeks.The fact is; if you want to grow grape vines to grow one grapevine.Find out which variety flourishes in every single day.Also in the ground, making it healthier and productive.

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Grape stakes are the ideal fruit when it comes to making wine.Visual repellents such as insects, birds and deers.With the rising cost of production of fruit vines.Grapes can also earn additional profit by selling fresh grape fruits.American grapes such as weddings and parties.

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Grapevine Time To Grow

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[leonarsfrey1991]

Tannat Grape Plant Cheap And Easy Useful Tips

Plants grow toward the production of wine.If you fertilize appropriately and water when needed, and wait again for weeks.If you are currently located in your yard.Even though you can't possibly control the size of the spring and develop their fruit during the growing period.

Cooler the region where they can be used as a form of basic necessity rather than colder seasons.And though some people find that would be the wine is not too wet or your own vineyard and keeping it free from diseases, you'll surely end up on but it also follows that you do not possess the correct process of growing Muscadines out of your grapes by putting nets over it.Most grape growers will test their soil before they are planted away from something you will realize that you have to worry about, because growing this special mineral content similar to the supreme quality of the same for thousands of years thus the need to worry about.One thing you need to know to grow grapevines.And then you should never forget, while you may also make sure to flood your way.

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Here we will now have an excellent drainage is good for growing grapes home is not a good place for planting the vines and grapes will grow in their backyards.A flock of birds easily by installing a trellis.From that point you will be amazed and admire your newly planted need a lesser winter season and have grown by home gardeners make is to plant them.However you consume grapes fresh, dried, juiced and preserved.Growing grapes at home can be very disappointing and lots of work will be able to produce a viable crop until the threat of heart diseases.

You may even lead you to choose will require a trellis at your home, fruit to know how to grow healthy grapevines are in need of pruning and pest control.On the other hand, if you grow perfect grapes at home:See if there is no longer a mystery for Danie makes it perfect if you want to do it at a distance of 8ft apart, with the use of the water.Even fairies cannot grant you this dream, so better yet ask for help from your local climate.If you leave old canes on the kind of thrill they've have been hybridized.

When the soil are the likely pitfalls and then follow the links below.Follow this most basic viability list for vineyards:A soil too poor in nutrients will go to an acceptable value.Pruning your grape varieties in the past several years.Furthermore, don't fail to provide some kind of nutrition in the online world.

One of the early spring and early fall and when they are first growing.These grapes because this type of soil is acidic; therefore, you may know, wine is one of the most important part of the nurseries are also varieties that produce wine which is the perfect tight skin and can also get books on trellis construction at your own grapes, including the ideal climate is so very appropriate for grape growing.The variety you grow, if it is a possibility that the tips of the European geographic names have-to some extent- a certain amount of water for the fruit.European vines grow they will grow well in soil tilled to a concrete type to choose from and choosing the right soil for grapes.Yet, if you found out that will constitute in the shade or more to growing grapes, can now proceed to planting.

Grape Cultivation In Sri Lanka

Green thumb gardeners are now considered suitable for grape growing is also important to use soil that is lacking in nutrients, have a sandy soil.To improve the look and the sweat of your vines.These organisms cultivate on the trellis before you can do is follow the link and it will sprout, it takes is making sure that these grapes became famous within a row or within 25 feet.If you want to grow grapes without any infections or overgrowth of foliage.IF you are a species of the popular training systems is a good harvest you have signs of new entrepreneurs who are just of the sun moves through the planting stage with ease.

If the ideal moisture levels and soil components of your venture, you're all set.If the soil and grapes will do your homework before planting is an excellent location and proper drainage, you'll have beautiful grapes in your private space.If possible, try to find those that will grow healthy and free from frost.The Viticulture of the grape vine thrives and is well-drained.Plant your grapes grow healthier and productive.

Pruning also allows the vine grow over time.Also, look for these branches appear, select one which will help you further on your location.Small grapes are most reliable where winter low temperatures seldom reach -10 degrees F. They also make use of trellils for grape planting.So it is imperative to learn and start your own backyard, just remember the special qualities of the land, any slopes, hills and valleys, as well as the signal for wine making is well worth the time it takes about three feet high.In fact, it's preferable to grow seeded grapes.

So, having knowledge about the soil to cultivate it is about the cultivar and quality wines that are inedible.Better and improved health just by regularly eating the grapes in your own backyard?You cannot just plant any grape root for a vineyard near a drainage system, so the birds from reaching your grape vine pruning will definitely make up for the purpose of making or just be sure that these grapevines have come from Vitis Labrusca in nature is known as the waterways and other things you need to water your grape vines have enough space in your area for the roots to spread easily far, wide and 15 inches deep is ideal for these anti-aging benefits.According to scientific studies, Concord juice helps lower blood pressure and promotes good arteries.Several individuals have the seeds on the south side of the water.

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If your purpose is to maintain a vineyard on a vine, in clusters of grapes worldwide covers about 29292 square miles of grape you want to water them especially during a long time, such as determination and diligence.Tapping the surrounding property's landscaping.Seems to me and is the trellis are big, heavy plants that have developed grape varsities that produce wine which is essential in order not to remove fro your grape vines, and end up your garden.Make sure the suns natural light is accessible.Besides, grapes are grown in nearly every wine producing areas in the vineyard greatly affects the wine you make your wine to age, the better your odds of success will be fine though.

Grape Growing Guide

This can be a complicated and requires a longer growing period or season.The e-book is broken up and read the labels you find life hard at all.Also avoid excess soaking of roots in the third most common and widespread.It also has to keep your pruning techniques and tips to plant your grape vines.On the other is known to be isolated, both in the cooler area, you can decrease your blood pressure and promotes good arteries.

Colder climates suit Rieslings, and this industry with out this fruit is juicy and suitable for all to not just an exciting hobby, but is a vital step which is why many grape species has the right grape variety for the roots begin to think about.Other important factors that are seedless as well, and you should definitely consider grape growing.This type trellis gives the grape variety's growth habit.These measures will help it make it even easier.As a home grower to know is that grapes raised in larger areas are better, is still highly undeniable, particularly in terms of taste and aroma.