#but not the day i'm trying to come up with tolkein characters

[ausefulblogforputtingthingsin]

142

Bonus internet points will be awarded to anyone who actually tries this exercise before voting.

Assume you need to get the spelling at least somewhat close, and if a character has multiple names, only one counts. Also, if a character doesn't have a canonical name, I'm sorry, but "that guy's wife" doesn't count.

For reference, if you can name the 9 members of the Fellowship, the eponymous Hobbit and his 13 dwarf buddies, 3 prominent women, and the guy who runs the Rivendell B&B, that's 27 characters right there. And you probably also know the name of a dragon.

For further reference, Tolkien Gateway has 637 (!!) pages dedicated to Third Age characters. (Don't click that link until you've voted, of course)

Edit: Your humble pollmaker gave this a try, and got as far as 73 before deciding she was too tired to keep trying to remember dwarf and Silm names. If you also want to share (and don't mind people being incredulous at your having forgot ____), pastebin allows you to paste text and share it for free. :)

[something-pithy]

Notes and an Update: What's in a Name?

Chapter 16 of an echo, a stain features Astarion doing what he does best -- feeling terror, spiraling and at the very least contemplating terrible choices as a result. lol.

SPOILERS FOR ACT 2 OF BG3 BELOW

Those of you who are mostly caught up on an echo, a stain know I love me a flashback (and now the rest of y'all know, too lol). There are two in this new chapter, one of which is set in the Shadow-Cursed lands after Astarion has confessed his initial intentions toward and current feelings/desires for Tav to Tav (post-Orthon confession). As a result of that conversation, they've put a pin in the sexual aspects of their relationship, but are still together romantically. Then, the Araj Moment happens (spoiler alert: nobody bit that heifer), Thaniel is reunited with Oliver, Halsin's... admiration of Tav is becoming more apparent, and Astarion is... yes! Spiraling!

I think that flashback speaks for itself, and I'll let y'all get what you will from when / where in the story it appears.

The OTHER flashback, which is much more brief, is about this Tav's name. Now, I'm not trying to make any secret of the fact that the Tav in this story and I have a lot in common in terms of ethnic backgrounds when you remove the high fantasy fake world element from Tav's lol. FIRST I want to say, I don't give a fuck. There is no shame in my game. Nobody comes for George R.R. Martin or Robert Jordan or J.R.R. (the Rs are for REALLY RACIST) Tolkein (don't @ me -- or do, go ahead and send me an ask if you really want to know my feels on that one looool) for writing about characters whose ethnic and cultural backgrounds are Western European / British.

Second of all, maybe I'm being unnecessarily defensive because I'm an old head who came up in a time when writing a self-insert character was like THE VERY WORST POSSIBLE THING YOU COULD DO AS A WRITER, but once again I don't give a fuck.

The lived experiences of ethnic minorities, people of mixed ethnic and cultural heritage (not fucking half-elves who most of the time are just people of the Caucasian persuasion with pointy ears and shorter lifespans than regular elves), first generation children of immigrants, and all manner of permutations of non-white, non-Western "others" are in extremely short supply in all forms of media / popular narratives in the Western world (shit honestly, it ain't just the West but that's another struggle for another day). This is especially true, from what I've experienced as a lifelong nerdalerd, in speculative fiction.

So yeah, I conceived my Tav as a mixed-race (kind of, she's all high elf, but mixed sun, moon, and sea because she's a motherfucking unicorn, come at me bro looool -- no, there are other reasons too but also she's a unicorn lol), mixed-ethnic-and-cultural-heritage person whose life choices are NOT aligned with a lot of the conventions and values of the cultures in which she was raised.

Because that story and perspective is wildly underrepresented in literature, mass media, speculative fiction, and fan fiction.

So here we are. loooool

Having said all that, I got a comment from my fucking delightful beta and queen of my soul, Komo, asking about the naming conventions I reference in this chapter (or their real-world analogues).

So for the notes part of this episode of "Notes and an Update," I'm going to quote part of the comment she left on AO3 about the story and my response, which adheres to my policy of "why say it in five words if you can say it in EIGHT MILLION." Let me know what you think!

NAMING CONVENTIONS IN AEAS

(FROM THE COMMENTS SECTION OF AN ECHO, A STAIN CHAPTER 16:)

Komo wrote:

I have so many questions about naming conventions, both from the corner of the world that Tav’s family hails from and BG proper. Like, in American and Japanese culture, women take their husband’s last names when heterosexual couples get married. In the States, there are exceptions to this rule, of course, with some women hyphenating. In China, women do not change their last names, but kids are almost always named after the father’s side (the old one child policy may have affected this, but the top 100 most common surnames make up 85% of the population anyways). If Tav and Astarion do end up together, would names be a thing they’d have to navigate? Astarion is such a possessive little yandere after all.

I wrote:

OK so this Tav's ethnic and cultural background, as we know, is mixed

(I'm not even getting into her racial background I just can't with fucking elvish loool and her families on both sides are far-enough removed from immersion in elven culture where I'm like LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL SEE YOU LATER TOLKEIN).

On her father's side, she's Zakharan / DnD-analogue MENA (Middle Eastern North African, with apologies to Said for the orientalism of the term Middle Eastern).

On her mother's side, Amnian / New Amnian / DnD-analogue Latina but -- oh lordt OK without getting into the complexities of codified colonial Spanish racism and colorism, that identity is complicated. Through a combination of executive decision-making about elves and race and how they interact with culture on the material plane (aka not in the Feywild) AND really leaning into the idea of cultural analogues in Toril / the Forgotten Realms, her Latina-analogue ethnicity comprises a mix of indigenous and colonizer racial/ethnic heritage.

(I also can't with how fucking convoluted figuring this out was, is, has been, will forever be looool.)

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, for the sake of brevity (looooooooooooooooool), we'll say Tav's full name results from the combination of her parents' names using Amnian/New Amnian (Spanish) naming conventions, BUT that means her full name (which is not even as long as it could be but is LONG) incorporates both Arabic naming conventions AND Spanish naming conventions that result in impressively / annoyingly long names loool.

In modern Spain, at least, when women marry, some don't even take their husband's name. But the kids' names are composites of parents' family names.

A Spanish child takes the surnames of both their father and mother. The structure is usually [father's surname] y [mother's surname] (though in modern Spain and Spanish-speaking countries a lot of people no longer use the "y"), but the main surname would be the father's surname. So for example, someone's full last name might be Juana Garcia y Martinez or Juana Garcia Martinez, but she might just go by Juana Garcia.

ALSO, especially for children of families of some kind of note / nobility when the dad's family was not as well-known as the mother's, this would include the composite names of both parents.

So Juana's name might be Juana [Garcia de Manzanilla (dad's composite surname)] y [Martinez de Hierro (mom's composite surname)].

So Juana Garcia de Manzanilla y Martinez de Hierro. And like, when people get real into it this can go back generations. Like, I don't even remember my mom's whole-ass name. looool.

NOW, Arabic names are composites, too, but incorporate the father's first name, the grandfather's first name, then the family name -- back in the day, they'd link these things with words that indicated the relationships. So for example, if Yemina's dad is Yusuf and HIS dad is Muhammad and their family name is Rashid, Yemina's name would then be Yemina bint/bin (daughter of) Yusuf ibn (son of) Muhammad al-(of the family) Rashid.

So Yemina bin Yusuf ibn Muhammad al-Rashid.

OK SO THERE'S ANOTHER COMPLICATION (aren't you glad you asked this question loooooooooooooooooooool): with regard to Spanish naming conventions, apparently this patrilineal thing hasn't always been the case and only came to be the norm around the mid-1700s. Before that, surname transmission was often matrilineal.

(This comes into play here because the year in BG3 is like, idk, 1492-98 or something? I forget whatever who cares it's before the mid-1700s and I'm just making it vaguely and very much not perfectly analogous with the time / calendar of the Western world because I don't have the bandwidth for anything else loooooooooool).

In this Tav's case, her mom ditched her dad and the kids were young enough at the time that she was able to, as a sign of DEEP FUCKING DISRESPECT TO HIM loooool, change their names to MATRILINEAL AMNIAN-STYLE COMPOSITE SURNAMES LOOOOOOOOOOOOL

(So for a while Tav's government name was Zeneida Nqa Tavares de la Torre de López Jimenez y bin Harun ibn Ishaq al-Jazairi loooool)

I mean this was like looooooooooooooool FUCKING PROFOUNDLY SCANDALOUSLY DISRESPECTFUL FOR HER TO DO TO A ZAKHARAN MAN especially one of SOME NOTE WHO WAS SELF-MADE

That shit was mad personal and a level of petty that mere mortals can only aspire to it was so deep

But TAV'S MOM DOES NOT PLAY

(Now, could she have just cut Tav's father's name out entirely? Sure, but 1) THAT MOTHERFUCKER IS NOT GETTING OUT OF CLAIMING THESE KIDS / PAYING CHILD SUPPORT esp if he ever got married again HER KIDS ARE THE FUCKING HEIRS AND HE AIN'T GON FORGET IT and 2) (possibly more importantly) FUCK HIS COUCH, PEOPLE ARE GONNA KNOW HE FUCKED AROUND AND FOUND OUT)

Even though he's deadass like "lol wtfever I don't give a fuck, I know what their real legal names are" and also this resulted in a protracted, multinational legal battle that was never actually resolved until each kid reached the age of majority and decided what their own legal name would be.

Ahem, anyway as a consequence of all this, Tav's full-ass, whole-ass, government name is:

Zeneida (first given name)

Nqa (middle given name)

bin Harun ibn Ishaq al-Jazairi (full Arabic/"Midani" patrilineal surname)

y (conjunction [means 'and'])

Tavares de la Torre de López Jimenez (mother's full surname)

So: Zeneida Nqa bin Harun ibn Ishaq al-Jazairi y Tavares de la Torre de López Jimenez

But as we know, she just goes by Zeneida Tavares, and she wasn't lying when she said on most docs it's just "Zeneida Nqa Jazairi Tavares."

Second...

tl;dr: Tavvy for short. Ms. Tavares if you nasty.

ALSO LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

If Tav and Astarion do end up together, Astarion better adjust them expectations, bc after all the drama that's existed around her name, he gonna have a hard time getting her to change it looool

Not to mention, she has a career based in part on people knowing who she is so... loooool

SOMETHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO IF THE STARS AND PLANETS EVER ALIGN FOR THEM / THEY EVER GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF ASSES

[thewapolls]

this one's a smaller family tree but covers a surprising amount of ground...

CLAY PUPPET and EARTHEN FIGURE are both actually rather enduring figures in the franchise bestiary individually, but I'm bundling them together here because they're not just recolors they're synonyms. They don't have any apparent source material nor any obtuse meaning, they just both describe a humanoid made of clay or dirt/soil. On the one hand these are fairly generic, with maybe a certain archeological tone to them, but they're also pretty obviously some iteration on the Jewish Golem, whether directly or thru a chain of other influences. Also probably some parallel evocation of things like dogu and haniwa in Japanese archeology.

WENDIGO is a kind of evil spirit cited in the lore of several different Native American groups. It is attributed with the possession of human hosts that it drives to violence and cannibalism (among other typified behaviors) most often in the onset or depths of winter and/or far northern regions where and when food scarcity and starvation would threaten a community. There is a... fraught history, to say the least, of the Wendigo being grossly appropriated in western media that really ramped up since the 1980s, probably peaking with the extremely tacky and insensitive use of it in the 2013 Hannibal TV show.

WIGHT in a really neat kind of obtuse reference with a lot of history. So on the one hand the Wight is also a D&D monster, but as a fairly generic undead warrior, which isn't the reference being made in WA2. In lieu of that you might be tempted to look to J.R.R. Tolkein's use of the full word Barrow-Wight and undoubtedly the root of its pop culture presence. But there too they're just undead warriors. No the root of this reference (and a similar line of thought goes into the Wights of Game of Thrones) is that William Morris's 1869 English transaltion of the Nordic Grettis Saga invented the term "Barrow-Wight" as a translation of Haugbúi --haugr refering to a kind of burial cairn or mound +‎ bui meaning “dweller,” both being old norse. But because William Morris was something of a pioneer and eccentric he opted to try and retain the archaic sound of the old norse, and so instead of translating the term literally into contemporary English, he used "Barrow" a type of burial mound native to britain dating back to pre-christian eras, and "Wight" a term that was already archaic by Morris's time, used in the middle ages, to refer to a person but in a derogatory or vilifying manner, all together to give both the literal meaning and an archaic and ancient tone. So it is once again referring to the undead, and specifically characters who were warrior kings, but also this original use carries with it the connotation of Norsemen, and that is where the affiliation with the ice and cold comes from, hence the white furred yeti-like model in WA2, and the soldiers of the long winter in GoT/SoIaF.

WRAITH is another historical English term referring rather vaguely to ghosts or figures of the dead in the underworld. Dating back to the 1500s in a translation of Virgil's Aeneid.

GASNOID 1ST is a fun one as it kind of cleverly recontextualizes the shared model with WIGHT and WRAITH as gaseous rather than spectral. But it's also an obtuse reference to the Japanese 1960 horror/sci-fi movie, GAS Ningen Dai-ichigo[ガス人間第1号]: "Gas Human #No.1." (the English title is The Human Vapor) Although the name in Wild Arms gives the impression of THE FIRST... in a European style lineage of a ...GASNOID family. The actual Japanese used in the game is in fact, GASNOID1st[ガスノイド1st]. (I wasn't actually thinking about it when I compiled the image, but it's possible that the enemy EM BEING is actually a reference to Denso Ningen[電送人間]: "ElectricalTransmission Human" (aka The Secret of the Telegian) a rival movie that came out in the same year as Human Vapor.)

SHAITAN a super late addition to the franchise, but it shares its model with GASNOID in WA5. It's actually just the Arabic borrowing of the Hebrew Satan[שטן]. And as you'd guess it refers to any of a variety of evil spirits and tempters basically hitting all the marks of its Christian and Hebrew predecessors while also adding in a pretty robust array of unique Islamic lore in the Quran. That's a pretty severe over simplification of things but I'm not about to jump down that rabbit hole because there's just no room here, and stupid William Morris already took up so much...

[livlepretre]

So with your hype about the Wot series, I'm seriously thinking about watching 😌 would you say its at least a fair interpretation of the books? Or would it be better to read the books and then watch the series or vice versa? 🤔

YOU MUST, IT'S THE BEST

and I spent the day mulling this over, and:

I think the answer comes down to what your preferred way to experience the story is.

Like, I should put it out there that the first 11 books + prequel in the wot series comprise my absolute favorite written story of all time. I'm extremely biased! The depth of the characters and the psychological journeys they go on, as well as the wacky amazing chilling worldbuilding and adventures and the relationships they have with each other are just mind-bogglingly good. The kind of story that gets your pulse racing and makes you hold your head in your hands and laugh out of sheer disbelief and delight frequently. It will also break your heart. So be forewarned. (I say the first 11 books, because sadly the author Robert Jordan died while writing the final book, which was split into 3 novels and written by another author, Brandon Sanderson, based on the notes RJ left behind. While it was nice to have an ending to the series, I don't really consider it the ending-- more like, pretty good fanfic. But it has its moments.)

Basically, I think that if you are a patient reader that can get into the worldbuilding and slowly drawn out characterizations, then reading is optimum because the books are the story I rave so much about. (I say this as not the most patient reader, haha) But the weird thing is that, at least in my opinion, Eye of the World (Book 1) is written in a very different style from The Great Hunt (Book 2)-- book 2 onward is written in a more modern and accessible style, whereas book 1 tries hard to get into the style of Tolkein, but that makes for dryer reading. I had a few false starts trying to get into the series before finally, finally getting far enough in to get invested on like, my 3rd or 4th attempt. (Literally the prologue makes no sense until finishing the 3rd book. I almost think people who are having trouble jumping in should just be told to skip the prologue because as fascinating as it is in retrospect, it's word salad to someone just starting the books. Unless you've seen season 1 of the tv show? which takes me to...)

If you would prefer to dive right into the world, and see if you like it and want to spend time with the characters, then the show is in many ways faithful. There are certain elements that feel a little off to me, and they had to condense a number of things to adapt the sprawling story to 8 episodes, but I do think it's quite good. It gets at the heart of the characters and their journeys even while remixing narrative and plot elements. I think watching season 1 at least would be a great way to jump in, and if you like it, OH MY GOD DO I RECOMMEND PICKING UP EYE OF THE WORLD. (I wouldn't skip book 1 even if you've seen season 1 because there is enough difference that I think it would make starting with book 2 a little confusing)

[urmomsstuntdouble]

Ok so I may be doing a thing so... which songs do you think have the general vibes of "we're semi-immortal nations who have lived longer than any human"? Sorry if this is kind of hard but I like your concepts of nation lore and I'm wondering if you were ever inspired by any songs

i love this ask anon! and thank you! i do want to mention that there will be a heavy bias towards english speaking and american artists on this list, and getting other perspectives on this is probably also a good idea. but anyway! list! (which since its kind of long i shall also put on an spotify link)

Hand in My Pocket- Alanis Morissette

this song feels like acceptance to me, and i think it’s important to put on this list because imagine you’re born and you know there’s something different about you, and then when you’re like 8 years old someone’s like oh by the way. you’re the human representation of the country we’re currently living in, or smth like that. i would cry. i think it’d take a while to accept, and that a lot of them don’t really like themselves, but this just feels hopeful and ok and i think its very good. 

Into the West- Annie Lennox

my lotr brainrot is showing again lmao. this is half bc of elves also being semi immortal beings who live for thousands of years in tolkein’s work, and also because the nature of the song is that we’re saying goodbye to all these characters and especially goodbye to frodo and bilbo. i think that goodbyes are something that’s sort of central to life as an immortal, at least in a place where immortals are rare. 

Vienna- Billy Joel

it’s always been my interpretation of this song that vienna was supposed to represent heaven and a peaceful death. a piece of nation lore that i like is that they can be killed, but they’ll come back as long as there’s a nation still existing, and that a lot of them might want to die but they can’t, and are therefore dreaming of a ‘vienna’ of their own. 

Lost- Amanda Palmer

this song fits into the theme of death again, cause the message is that you never really lose anyone as long as they’re still with you emotionally. i like that vibe and i think it fits again with being an immortal in a world of humans. 

Wild Heart- Bleachers

this feels very much young and free, which is how i think the nations must look from the outside. 

Strangers Like Me- Phil Collins

once again it’s all about that ostracisation! wanting to know what it’s like to be a person, when you’re representing people, and it’s just..yea

Like Real People Do- Hozier

dont u ever wish u were a real boy 

What’s Up?- 4 Non Blondes

this is sense8 propaganda. i really like the way this song is used to emphasize the way the sensates are both lonely but also that literally always they have each other, and i think the bonds between nations are sort of similar. 

God’s Away On Business- Tom Waits

this is mostly bc of the title tbh. i like the vibe of them being abominations too though, like 

Don’t Let This Feeling Fade- Lindsey Stirling, Rivers Cuomo

this song is super inspirational to me, and i think it’s because of this bit: 

“What really matters in life? Is it a sprint or a marathon? And what if finish lines make us happy? Or are we glad we can run at all? I never do it to lose, but losing occurs And when I do it for the love, lose never hurts Loose, loose grip on what I can't hold Who you fooling with a handful of fool's gold? Lose, lose, when you do it for the wins only Love gave you meaning, it never was a trophy It never was a trophy Yeah, enjoy the race, homie”

i think the idea of life being a marathon is especially aplicable to the nations, bc they have no idea when their marathon is going to end. at least you and i know we’re going to die someday, and some of the probable causes. the being glad to run at is also a bit strengthening to me because yeah life is such a wonderful thing, even if you’re cursed with so much of it. finally, the line about love giving you meaning, rather than a trophy, is something that’s just so. good line. but it also has another layer of meaning where the nations are concerned, because love for the nation literally gives them existence (imo) so. yeah. and then trying to enjoy it, because that’s all you really can do. idk its powerful to me

Where Do We Go- Lindsey Stirling, Carah Faye

i really like this song, specifically bc of the idea of where do we go from here, and just. the desolation. chef’s kiss. 

Those Days- Lindsey Stirling, Dan + Shay

nostalgia!

I Am A Man Of Constant Sorrow- The Soggy Bottom Boys (from O Brother Where Art Thou)

idk this is more about the instrumentals. i think its a good vibe though

I’ll Fly Away- Gillian Welch (from O Brother Where Art Thou)

i want to break free! but make it country and old fashioned. it also puts an emphasis on weariness i think and thats something that i think the nations also struggle with

Sleep Now In The Fire- Rage Against The Machine

this song is a bit anti colonialism

The Chain- Fleetwood Mac

i think this fits into like. lost chances and opportunities and the struggle to go on

Left Alone- Fiona Apple

i like the idea that the nations beg to be left alone and while they’re loveable in some senses, their people find it hard to love them on a personal level. like everybody loved american but alfred is just some dude and most people don’t really care about him

Relay- Fiona Apple

i love the imagery in this song, about evil and hatred and all that. its very song

If I Could Turn Back Time- Cher

turning back time while also having a positive outlook! 

that's all I have off the top of my head, but if you'd like more music or for a more specific vibe, feel free to send an ask! i hope this is helpful for your project :P

[dancing-in-the-void]

So sorry to keep adding on to this post but I realized there was more.

tldr: I missed the most obvious bit during my initial analysis and Mae’s name in Old English makes Fingon's "utúlie’n aurë!’ speech during Nirnaeth Arnoediad even more tragic. In other news, ‘The Dawn Will Come’ from the Dragon Age soundtrack belongs on every Russingon playlist.

So I was out on a run today and realized that during my initial exploration of Maedhros’s OE name like a month and a half ago I missed the most obvious and excruciatingly heartbreaking part. 

Fingon’s makes his ‘The day has come! / utúlie’n aurë!’ speech during Nirnaeth Arnoediad as this hopeful rallying cry, meant to inspire his people that they will win this battle and have peace. In the published Silmarillion he cries this when trumpets of Turgon’s host sound, just at the point where his forces in the west are struggling and Maedhros’s forces have shown no sign of appearing. The events of this battle that made it into the final version highlight how Turgon’s forces came “unsummoned and unlooked for” and Fingon only "heard afar” the trumpets of the Gondolindrim. They are welcome allies, but not the ones Fingon is expecting.

The forces Fingon is expecting are Maedhros’s. 

While I am absolutely not an expert, especially since it has been a year since I’ve taken any Old English, I did try and have a go at what the translation of that line of Fingon’s speech would be. OE would create the perfect tense for "has come” with the verb habban in the present singular and the past particle (ġe). What a literal translation thus ends up as is:

Þæt dæg hæbbe ġecuman!

But since day coming is, ya know, like sun rising, the line could just as easily by “the dawn has come” which would, in OE, be:

Þæt dægred hæbbe ġecuman! And yep, I'm sure you all saw the buildup to this from several miles away but alas for Fingon, Dægred—Maedhros—is not the one who has come, and Turgon’s unlooked for ten thousand will not be anywhere near enough. 

Also wow I spent several hours surrounded by books for this and have majorly rabbit holed. I may make this and the initial throughs into a separate post, and possible also ones for my thoughts into Tolkein’s OE names for other characters.

“Maedhros’s Old English name is Doegred Winsterhand (Ang. Doegred=dawn, daybreak, Winsterhand=left-handed). Christopher Tolkien thinks that Doegred refers to the colour of Maedhros’s hair.”

Thats a really beautiful name😢 Imagining his redhair like dawn clouds…