#but like James Frain is SO GOOD AT BEING CROMWELL

[mihrsuri]

The basic premise of the OT3 verse is ‘a kinder world and how you get there’ ‘self indulgent wish fulfillment for me’ and ‘listen history would be SO COOL if Frain!Cromwell/JRM!Henry/Anne Boleyn got secretly married and had eight kids and that’s that’

(I was reblogging some things from @hanorganaas and was reminded of this)

[cecilyneville]

Mirror & the Light thoughts (final edition):

How did Crom think he could get away with saying that comment about picking up a sword in his hand to defend the Reformation to Bess Darrell of all people? Anyway I now stan Bess forever, a papist spy icon

When that final scene b/w Cromwell & Henry (”God forbid.” / “He does.” ) gets played out in Wolf Hall S2, it’ll win Rylance & Lewis a slew of awards and I for one cannot wait

I get the feeling that if Mantel writes about this period again (not that I’m expecting her to), it’ll be from the perspective of Thomas Wyatt, the other “man of unlimited intellect” of this series

“I am not content with this clerk. He keeps looking at the prisoner.” / “So do you keep looking at me. I am not content with you, Richard Riche.”

Kind of impressed at how Richard Riche outlived just about everyone and never fell from grace but also fuuuuuck hiiiiim

“No trace of Anne Boleyn. He remembers her saying - was it in this very room? - ‘Be good to me.’ He thinks, if I see her again, perhaps I will.”

“The book of his heart is unscrolling, the lines erasing themselves” - there are so many beautiful lines in the “Light” chapter that I wanted to write down but this is one of the more poignant (and shorter) ones

I got Wolf Hall and Bring up the Bodies for Christmas 2012 - after finishing The Tudors I wanted to delve into that part of history from a different fictional perspective (and I was also very excited that a series was being written from the POV of my favourite Tudors character, Cromwell). I remember enjoying Wolf Hall but being absolutely thrilled by Bring up the Bodies, mainly because of its narrowed scope and tighter feel. The Mirror & the Light is the unwieldiest and most ruminative of the three but I think it might be my favourite (also it has the best writing of women of the three - not that the first two had badly-written women by any means but the way Mantel is able to characterise and utilise obscure figures like Bess Darrell, Meg Douglas, Dorothea Clancey, Bess Seymour is such a delight to me). Anyway all this to say that this is all James Frain’s fault I guess

[mermaidsirennikita]

the tudors, twq, twp, tsp and reign rank them from best to worst and explain why

Best: Reign.  

Easily.  I know, it’s a teen soap opera and it’s dumb as hell with all these random fashion house 21st century clothes and magic and THE DARKNESS and Bash out in the woods.... killing people....   And it did have one unforgivable storyline that almost ruined the show for me.  But Reign knew what it was.  It never tried to sell its story as the truth.  It actually had fairly complex female characters in Mary, Catherine, and to an extent towards the end even Elizabeth.  I appreciate that the show went there with them doing shitty things...  But you could tell that the writers loved them and didn’t want to “punish” them, as the PG adaptations always do.  There was a real love behind Reign, lol, and I also think that the fantastic chemistry between Mary and Catherine, as well as Mary and Francis and Catherine and Francis, kept the show so memorable.

2. The Tudors.  

Mainly for the actresses?  Mainly for the actresses.  I will always love Natalie Dormer’s Anne Boleyn and Maria Doyle Kennedy’s Catherine of Aragon.  Despite the inaccuracies of the show, those two got the spirit of the women really well imo, especially in season 2.  Maria’s Catherine had that dignity and self-righteous belief, to the point that she played the game she wanted vs. perhaps the the game that would have given her the best results.  It’s that self-belief that can only be found in a true religious zealot who has a hell of a lot of belief in her own (corrupt) family.  And while Anne Boleyn was a bit of a cipher vamp in the first season...  Ugh, her arc is so good in the second season.  Her highs, her lows, her desperation--it all played so true without making her this overly perfect heroine.  I also really liked Tamzin Merchant’s Katherine Howard (oh poor baby) and the other wives were well-played too, even if I didn’t love the writing.  Can’t forget Sarah Bolger’s Mary either!  So good.  

So like...  This show was always fucking inconsistent, sometimes borderline insensitive, but like.  The musical cues were great.  I did love that shot of Henry eating a swan in an episode with a swan motif that represented his intense evil and the fact that he could only get a new mate by killing the old one.  I do like that this show really did make me feel like Henry was an EVIL MOTHERFUCKER after a certain point.  Like.  Yes.  There would still be moments of “lmao Henry” or even “Henry is kinda awesome riiiight” (no).  But the end of season 2 played him up to be so VILE (I remember watching the scene of him acting disgusted by his miscarried fetal child with Anne, like it was some dead bird, with my parents back in the day, and they both were like okay fuck this dude forever he’s a monster).  I appreciate that.  I do think The Tudors was far less sympathetic to its protagonist than, say, The Borgias was with Rodrigo, and I prefer that kind of take.  I also love Cromwell.  I don’t think JRM was particularly well-cast, but he had some funny moments and he tried his best with old Henry.... it wasn’t right for him and his acting choices are always kinda bizarre to me, but they worked better here than they do on most other things I see with him?  It’s a mixed bag, but there are really brilliant moment.

3. The White Queen

Not a good show.  Not good.  But!  There were good performances.  Rebecca Ferguson was good, Amanda Hale brought that fanatical aspect of Maggie B. out while also being kinda hilarious, James Frain (who was also a standout on The Tudors) is always a good medieval villain, and I really really do like Aneurin’s Richard III, even though his edit was confusing.

Also, out of all of the PG adaptations I think that this one at least sorta did the most with the witchcraft shit without just being like “THE CURSE!!!!11″.  Like.  If you’re going to lean into witchcraft, just do it.  And I know this is controversial--I do not think Elizabeth of York had an affair with her uncle.  But I also don’t really care if a show as dumb as the PG series goes for that aspect if it’s well done.  It’s not well done here.  BUT IT IS FUCKING HILARIOUS.  Let us remember that I once had a url referencing Richard’s creepy uncle status on this fucking show.

“ELIZABETH... you’ve changed”.  You saw her like a month ago bro.

“If I bed my niece--IF I MAKE THEM THINK I’M BEDDING MY NIECE” a line on this show.

And I will always fondly remember the outrage when people were like “he’s not really doing it Anne Neville and Richard for life” (never mind that Anne Neville is basically a blank page historically, and was used on this show as a flat character everyone could project everything onto, with a flat romance to boot) but then the Starz edit came out months later and it turned out THEY FUCKED IN A TENT.  Oh how smug I was.  Fond memories.

4. The White Princess.

Pros: Elizabeth of York and Henry VII are so well played!!!  Jasper Tudor swanning about always reliable with the LADIESSSS, Michelle did her best with Maggie B. God bless her.

But this was also where they began the trend of the heroines of previous series being evil in the new series.  And the illogical turn of acting like Elizabeth of York was wrong to take her brother out when he was literally threatening the lives of her husband and her sons.  The Perkin Warbeck thing was Bad.  The rape was Bad and basically has to be ignored in order for you to enjoy the series at all.

5 (the worst) The Spanish Princess.

So.  The previous shows could always, even when the shit hit the fan, rely on Performance.  Adelaide, Toby, and Michelle in Reign; Natalie and Maria on The Tudors, then later Sarah and Tamzin et al.; Rebecca and Amanda, etc in TWQ; Jodie and Michelle, etc in TWP.  Now.  There are good actors in the Spanish Princess.  I do like older Henry and Lizzie.

But Charlotte just cannot fucking do this shit.  The chick who plays Juana cannot do this shit.  The streeeeetches made to make Catherine of Aragon seem like she has it coming later?  The fucking REEEEACHES re: Henry VIII in every sense?  No thanks.  And it isn’t even hot, because Henry looks young EVEN THO HE’S WAY OLDER THAN HE WOULD BE IRL GROSS GROSS GROSS.

A mess.

[theangryhistoriananna]

just like...1) what an interesting dude and also 2) my professor wrote that book "king henry viii's henchman" that u mentioned !!!

Thomas Cromwell and Thomas Cranmer are perhaps what keeps me so interested in the Tudor time period as a whole. Like yeah I love George Boleyn and Jane Parker but George Boleyn’s rise to power and affect on the political atmosphere was so small a period of time (like 8 years tops) and Jane had no effect on the political atmosphere. But Cromwell basically controlled Henry’s court and kingdom for decades and I respect that. Especially considering where he came from and how the world of Henry’s court was set up to be against him (i.e not someone from a noble background) from the start but he didn’t give a shit. Cromwell had a vision for how the country should run, and he wasn’t about to let some snooty rich assholes of the court stop him. He and Thomas Wolsey were alot alike in that regard (I also have respect for Wolsey btw, just not as much as I do for Cromwell). 

The thing that annoys me is that alot of people see Cromwell as being Henry’s toadie, morally ambiguous and loyal only to himself. That he was greedy and obsessed with power and being in complete control for the sake of himself. Cromwell was no worse in my opinion than many in the court of Henry VIII and certainly he was much better than Henry himself or a good many of the nobles of “ancient” bloodlines (Norfolk I’m looking at you). Basically in my experience the name “Thomas Cromwell” pulls to peoples minds the Cromwell of “Anne of a Thousand Days”, manipulative with a bit of a Loki feel to him. 

Was Cromwell a selfless hero? Hell no he wasn’t. The Pilgrimage of Grace proves that, as does his seemingly complacent role in Anne and her supposed “lovers” trials and executions. Cromwell could be ruthless, harsh, and cruel. But he was also a notorious helper of widows and had a very positive (and progressive for the time) view of women. He was apparently a good master to work for who was always willing to assist his men get good positions in court. He was deeply religious, although he didn’t let that stop him from being a good businessman (which in my opinion made him a better Chamberlain than Moore). 

I recently read a book by Neville Williams called “The Cardinal and the Secretary” that puts it in words better than I can why I respect (and to some degree admire) Thomas Cromwell 

“Cromwell. the layman who-unlike Wolsey-had visited Rome, rose sufficiently high in the Cardinal's service for his future to seem jeopardized by his master’s fall from power; but he proved to be the real innovator, directing the complicated moves in the breach with Rome to establish a national state, with an Erastian Church, through legislative authority of the King in Parliament. Domestic affair, the complete overhaul of the medieval administrative machine (which had sufficed for Wolsey) and the furthering of measures designed to remedy defects in the state and society were to be his principal concerns; the very opposite of the Cardinal.....” 

Cromwell was an idealist at heart. He thought he knew how to fix the ailments of English society, and he was going to stop at nothing to make sure he did just that. I remember I once described him in a paper as a “the end justified the means” kind of man.

I also once heard it said that Cromwell made England “face the modern age” and loosened its still iron grip on the old ways of society. 

All in all, the more I read about him the more intrigued I am by him. I think he’s a great deal more complicated than “Henry’s mustache twirling henchman” or Mantell’s “wronged innocent”. The real Cromwell is probably closer to James Frain’s portrayal of him in “The Tudors” (which is one of the reasons I will defend that shit show till my dying day) 

So if your professor wants to meet me in a pit to fight over Cromwell and his actions while in power I will gladly do so. 

[mihrsuri]

I really want to do my end of year sappiness post right now so I am going to do it. This year. This year, this year was the year that the fact that I made it is something I have to talk about it, because honestly I wasn’t sure between everything. And in the trauma (the activated Jewish Trauma Genre), in the hate I have also found love. Am Yisrael Chai. We live. I live.

Which is why I have to first send my love to my Jewish Mutuals/Friends and to Jumblr - @cephalopodvictorious @captainlordauditor and just, every one of my Jewish Mutuals and people who have sent kind words. Who have made me, a patrilineal mizrahi jewish woman reconnecting with her heritage and faith because of abuse feel Jewish enough to go to Synagogue.

This year was, despite everything the year I reconnected with old friends (shout to my friends in physical space - E, R, C and C), I took an art class, I swam more, I wrote a bunch of words, I found my love of art again and discovered that I might, might be good at it, I even asked for things like gifts even though it’s Terrifying.

To my saatis. My sisters. My chosen family. Thank you for everything - the phone calls you let me schedule, the chats and the wise words and the blorbos and from some of you the in person hugs (there will be more I will offer hugs to and I will also hug again). @shes-a-voodoo-child @bibliothekara @wheresonichedgehogwnt @pearlsthatwereeyes @star-anise @notabuddhist @kawuli lemonsharks @maevedarlings @ruffboijuliaburnsides @taibhsearachd @blackeyedgirl-writes @armyofthedaegiloth @strangeetudes @findingfeather

@bessemerprocess @sarking @jesidres @kshandra @amadistuff FRIENDS. FRIENDS. Love you to the moon and back - and we are here. We are here.

And @geeoharee - The Sherlock Content <3.

To the Pocket Friends Who Have/Are Becoming(If It’s okay obviously!) Become Friends: @rahabs whose kindness I will never ever forget. To @theladyelizabeth who patiently answers my questions about all kinds of Tudors Things and who is like, The Best. To @nocompromise-noregrets for Ellie, for answering archives questions and just in general. To @gen-is-gone - a saati in the making, holder of correct Doctor Who Opinions forever. To @herawell - the bravest when scared, indulges my OT3 verse. To @miabicicletta - one of the best fic writers, so generous and kind and whose comments make my entire day. @eidetictelekinetic - my favourite Tudors Fic Writer is my Friend Now and is awesome.

@jkthinkythoughts <333333.

@lorata - whose worldbuilding leaves me in awe and who is just, frankly absolutely great.

@isagrimorie because CORRECT DOCTOR WHO AND BEST META

@feuillesmortes for never failing to make me think, to post beautiful poetry and for the best H7/EOY sources and for always, above all being kind.

@hoursofreading @becauseforoncethisisme (special shout out to you <3) @disredspectful (oh my gosh your words)

@anhaga @goshawke @beatrice-otter @alexseanchai <333333

Also @nurselaney for indulging my Thomas/Mihrimah Content and also the women of the SOE.

@sherwoodknights for Scarlet Pimpernel and also Patrick Gibson feels.

@quillington - for correct Anne Boleyn and Scarlet Pimpernel thoughts and also being The Sweetest.

@lordlykisses - kindness and Taylor Swift. And @cleoselene for Taylor Swift and kind words I will also never forget.

To The Cromwell/James Frain Appreciation Brigade - @uncheckedaggression @reallyginnyf (also a fellow hurt/comfort enjoyer) @cinemaocd - thank you <3.

To all the West Wing Discord People - I adore you. Thank you for being so kind and welcoming and wonderful.

And to all my mutuals. Thank you for bearing with me this year, with so much kindness. I know it’s been A Lot but I have, despite everything felt so so loved.

[mihrsuri]

We sat down with Rupert Graves post Season Three of The Tudors (warning - this discussion will contain huge spoilers for the entire season, particularly the finale).

(Or an in universe Tudors OT3 verse version of The Tudors TV show actor interview. Ellie belongs to @nocompromise-noregrets <3)

So, Norwich is really gone?

Couldn’t have happened to a more deserving person!

I was particularly taken by the way the show uses the historical reports that a range of emotions apparently played across his face as the axe fell to say that he realised exactly how much the monarchs valued Thomas Cromwell?

It was such a bloody good way to frame it as a narrative - so much of his [Norwich’s] self image is tied up in being the smartest person in the room and to have his utter unravelling end with that realisation that he’d never understood at all - it’s fantastic to play as an actor, because you get to just utterly take apart the character. It was also personally just fantastic to see this odious fucker getting what he deserved, to understand just how disgusting and small he is.

I was going to ask you about that, about how it was playing someone who is a monster with a handsome face and charm?

So not just as a father, though that was a huge part of it, but as a human being? It was horrifying - as an actor I don’t feel like I need to justify a characters actions - and here especially, because ultimately my Norwich is a fictionalised version of a real historical person or even to understand it but I did have to ‘get him’ to make it work - I made a lot of visits to Welles Hall - they were fantastic.

A lot of guidance?

Absolutely! Ellie (Dr Eleanor Richardson, Chief Archivist and the discoverer of the Norwich Papers) and Ahmed (Dr Ahmed Rushton-Bridges, historian and author of ‘John Norwich: A Biography’) gave me a tour and an understanding of his diaries - it wasn’t a pleasant subject but they did an incredible job. And it gave me more of a sense of him, especially as a younger man with that sense of entitlement.

Did you visit his town house?

I did. I will say it’s a beautiful space now in theory but the atmosphere in the actual rooms makes your blood run cold, that’s the best way I can put it - they’ve been blessed and cleansed and a thousand and one things but something haunts that place. But it did give me something to draw on, both James and I.

[James Frain who plays Thomas Cromwell, Duke of Essex in the Show] He visited as well?

Yeah actually. We both found it very hard going honestly but we both felt it was very important that we went - for different reasons for playing these people. Afterwards we went and had a cry together - did that a few times throughout the season and then tried to keep it light. My method was that to play this we actually needed to have that trust with each other - to both be able to be safe.

Also shout out to that scene with Norwich and King Henry - though I don’t suppose you could tell us what Henry whispered in his ear?

Johnny (Jonathan Rhys Meyers) and I have agreed to take that one to the grave [laughs]. No, it was done in silence and so you only see Henry’s back for a reason - it was actually specifically Jon’s suggestion that the absence of words and faces actually works better for the menace and for this being a ‘historical rumour’ we use in the show [historical note: King Henry VIII did indeed visit The Tower shortly before the Earl was executed but the rumour that he did so to meet with Norwich is simply a rumour] - it also adds to the mystery!

Did you know there were people swooning over your character and the chemistry you and James Frain had?

I know a lot of people don’t know the history - I don’t blame them for that, it’s not something you’re going to cover in school in detail and it’s pretty recent but, no to answer this once and for all - it’s not meant to be sexy. Or if it is it’s meant to make you think about, well, the discomfort of how predators don’t look like predators - they are charismatic, they can be good looking and smart and present themselves like an ex lover - which Norwich genuinely believes and doesn’t make it any more wrong or repulsive.

It is meant to make you look back and see just how uncomfortable Cromwell is, how predatory it is - I know there were people who got it and I’m glad we didn’t…we didn’t present it through Norwich’s narrative. His narrative is there, but it’s not the one the show actually has, I don’t think.

And of course in lots of ways it makes sense that people swooned over Norwich - it’s how he was seen in the world before everything came out! The people who try to defend him after that though, that disgusts me.

I have to say you and Jeremy Irons Norfolk do have a fascinating something going on…

We joked that it was very much a ‘worst recognises worst’ situation but yes, there’s something there - a mutual respect and ‘only one I’m fond of in this world’ which I don’t think either of them expected. So yes, that was absolutely deliberate!

[mihrsuri]

Some more multimedia snippets from the Rewrite The Stars OT3 verse version of The Tudors. 

Natalie Dormer: I think the first time we all really met we were shooting promos and it was just ‘straight into rolling around on a bed’ We just cracked each other up though. 

James Frain: It was the least sexy thing you can think of, honestly! [laughter] Trying to get all your limbs in the right place!

Natalie Dormer: You have to make it funny because honestly, it’s hilarious when it’s a good set and everyone is nice but it’s still a bunch of people standing round saying things like ‘can you move your hand to make it look more sensual’ with cameras everywhere. though hopefully it looks sexy! 

Jonathan Rhys Meyers: And you are just there, freezing your arse off! 

Natalie Dormer: Honestly even with heaters it’s always freezing

James Frain: I don’t know what it is about sets and being freezing at the worst possible moment but yes - it’s just three blocks of ice talking about their commute! 

JRM: I think we talked about the weather!

ND: It was such a cliche, wasn’t it! By the end we’d just try to make each other laugh the whole time. Or make ridiculous faces. 

JF: I think at one point Nat was teaching me how to sing dirty lyrics in French 

(From an Entertainment Weekly Panel Interview)

Jasmine Martinez (Executive Producer): I had a lot of fights, I have to admit. I had some amazing supporters as well, especially Ella (Eleanor Casey, Showtime Head Of Drama) but I also had people who wanted to make it, how can I put this? Male gaze...

V: awful objectification?

JM: Yes! Especially with Mary Boleyn and Jane Seymour, it was very much ‘No I’m not doing it like that! That isn’t interesting to me in the slightest and it’s not at all true to the story’ And then there was the fact that the Henry/Cromwell leg of the triad was one that some people at Showtime wanted to downplay or cut out altogether. 

V: which you can’t do, can you - I mean it takes out so much of the story and the history and the whole...

JM: so much of the narrative! You can’t leave that out or make it a ridiculous love triangle because aside from everything else, it doesn’t work out at all. And that’s how I sold it - also the fact that Maya had been extremely firm about the terms that she would sell the rights to her book because well, we’d all seen the...[she searches for a word]

V: that terrible movie

JM: [laughs] Your words not mine! We’d seen some other adaptations that didn’t entirely work or validate the non straight experience shall we say and both Maya and I were adamant that we didn’t want that. 

(From a Vogue Magazine interview)

[mihrsuri]

So some of my obscure tiny ships. It’s A List (some of these I have roped friends into but I think at least one of them is just me - questions welcome. 

The Richard E Grant Scarlet Pimpernel OT4: (It’s Percy, his wife, his best friend and his best friends wife who is the best friend of his wife and honestly, I adore it even though it’s based on like a two second canon scene. Also my love for people in love playing a role and absolutely trusting each other and their love and Doing Good Things With It) 

The LOUK (Matt/James/Aleesha) OT3: I have an extremely elaborate OT3 AU head canon about these three that I developed with @bibliothekara that involves a happy ending and kids. I never said I am not predictable. 

The P.O.W. (2003) Pairing: look I...this mini series gives a a lot of complicated feelings and is comforting for a lot of complicated reasons that I can’t really go into in a public forum but I absolutely ship Caddon/Attercombe Really Really A Lot (also Attercombe/Caddon/Attercombes awesome OC wife). From being absolutely and completely At Odds to respect and trust and Protecting Their Men I just...it’s a lot. It’s really a lot. Also Patrick Baladi and James D’Arcy are Really Really Good. 

I was going to say Horatio/Archie/William but actually I think that one is a pairing that has shippers in Hornblower fandom. 

Norrington/Will/Ellizabeth is another one like this. 

I think everyone knows my Obscure Tudors Ships I Talk About Over Enthusiastically (I am sorry, it is terrible) but just in case: Anne/Henry/Frain!Cromwell is the main one. I have written ninety nine percent of the fic on AO3. Despite myself I regret nothing. Oh and also Mary Boleyn/Jane Seymour. I love that one.