#but i also DON'T support any of her hateful bigoted viewpoints

[deadlylittlemiho]

So I'm genuinely concerned

Are we really all gonna just pretend not to like Harry Potter anymore? Because of one terf with a million bad ideas and a superiority complex?

When the fandom has long since denounced her and started making their own fan works and headcanons? The existence of Harriet Porber makes me feel like ???? We don't need to destroy the series just because the creator is a bigoted moron???? Stop me where I'm wrong but I thought the point was to separate art from the artist, and as long as we're not supporting HER, where is the harm?

[bisluthq]

Hey! I'm fairly new here and I have a pretty uncommon take on Kaylor. But I just wanna start off by saying I try my best to be as supportive of LGBT people as possible and if they're both bisexual, then I would be 100% okay with that! I'm not trying to "defend their heterosexuality" or anything, I think that's really weird

Okay, so my personal theory is that Kaylor did happen, but that Taylor and Karlie are both straight. I know that might sound contradictory, but I say this based on my own personal experiences based on how I am with my best friend. I think Karlie and Taylor's relationship might have been similar in some ways to ours

Right, so I'm straight and I'm not into women in the gay kind of way (but it's completely cool that some girls are), and I have this roommate who's gorgeous. Really gorgeous, she's like a 10/10 "I would sell my kidney to look like you" kind of girl. She's very attractive, she has like tan skin and long legs and gorgeous brown hair and pretty eyes and nice lips and just like… she's just very good looking. I'm definitely jealous of her body, I won't even pretend I'm not 😪 I lowkey hate her because of it (jk)

We've been living together since not long before COVID started, and we're very good friends. There were three of us before, but our other roommate went back home to stay with her parents until in person classes are back on and we agreed to it and worked something out because she has really bad anxiety so we understood her reasoning for it

Anyway so it's just been us two and because we've been at home a lot during this time instead of out for most of the day like before, we've gotten to know each other a lot better and have become a lot closer. We were already friends from before, but now we're like super close besties, we've been hanging out a lot together and playing board games, watching movies, helping each other with essays, just having long conversations about anything and everything, etc

Like it's been so nice having a best friend that I can be this close to now because I haven't had a best friend since I was a kid

So my friend and I were having like a conversation last year about how hard it's been in quarantine not being able to go on dates and how we miss kissing people, and so we decided to just like, make out for fun you know. I mean, there's not really anything that's inherently romantic or sexual about making out, that's just society that says that. But tbh I think making out with your friends if you want to should be normalized, it's fun and it can even be emotional sometimes. It's not that different from hugging people

After a couple of weeks or so, I think we got bored of just making out with each other and decided to like, fully hook up. It started off because we were modelling lingerie for each other for banter and were pretending we were each other's runway judges and then I think we just decided to hook up with each other as like part of the whole "game". I can't remember who initiated it now, I think it might have been me as a joke lol

Like just in a platonic way for fun, as a kind of substitute until we can go back into society

And tbh I always expected hooking up with a woman to be like mediocre and boring and awkward, but although it was a bit hard to get the hang of at first and there was a learning curve, it's actually very enjoyable. Like I was very surprised actually at how hot it can be, I think I can maybe see why bisexual women and lesbians like doing it

Anyway we both liked it and we just carried on hooking up on the regular and it's been like 8 months now and tbh I just think it's very sweet and heartwarming, like it actually makes me feel a little emotional how we're close enough and care about each other enough that we can even help each other out with the physical intimacy side of things so that we don't get sexually frustrated while we're stuck in lockdown

I just think it's really cool and we even sleep in the same bed most of the time now because tbh what's the point in sleeping alone when you can sleep in the same bed as someone else? It's nicer, like you can cuddle and stuff

Anyway, I think that maybe Kaylor's relationship might have been similar. I think they're both straight but they became really close friends in a short space of time, and that their friendship was so intense that it became physical but in a platonic way

I think lesbians and bisexual women are amazing and I have so much respect for you guys for accepting yourselves in a society that tries to erase you, and I think there definitely needs to be more wlw representation on TV and in movies

But at the same time, I would also like there to be more close female friendships like the one that me and my friend have where you can just talk about everything together and do things that society usually reserves for romantic partners, but in a platonic way. Because female friendship is really important and beautiful, whether that's between straight women like me and my friend who I think is probably straight too, or between queer women because one thing I've learnt during my short time on this blog is how queer women can have very close platonic friendships with other queer women too

I think society just has overly strict ideas of "straight" and "gay". Like for some people, they would hear about two women sleeping together and think "Oh that's gay", but not necessarily because straight women can enjoy sleeping with other women too, like it's normal 🤷‍♀️

I think it's just a result of women being a lot more physically beautiful than men are, like straight women really got the short end of the stick tbh compared to straight men

I also think it's because women are so oversexualized in the media, and obviously straight girls see that too and so we sort of internalize that attraction to women because we're so used to seeing women being presented in a sexual way? Except it's not real attraction with us like how it is for queer girls

Like I'm very much "attracted" to my friend, she's genuinely stunning and just very hot tbh. But I still identify as straight because it's just a case of what I mentioned above, it's a "fake" attraction. And also because men are afraid to compliment other men because it's seen as "gay", but women can be fully confident in their sexuality and still recognize other women's beauty and sex appeal. You see it all the time in instagram comments, and I really love how we're all so supportive of each other like that

Like I can be fully confident in my sexuality and yet still say that some women like my friend are gorgeous as hell and also 100 times better looking than most men I've seen. I'm very much obsessed with some women's appearances but in a platonic way

And I just love the concept of "girl crushes" and I think that from a feminism viewpoint, it's beautiful that we're focusing on other girls and showing love towards other girls too, instead of just to men who, let's be real, don't even fully appreciate it half of the time

I am going to be sad when we all have to return to life as usual and my friend and I won't be able to spend as much time together anymore. I'm dreading it tbh, I don't want it to end yet. And it really sucks that the physical side of our friendship will probably have to stop too once our other roommate comes back because I think she'd definitely misunderstand the situation and think it's something different than it actually is if she ever saw us kissing or something. I really am going to miss it a lot though, I really like how things currently are and it's just really really nice and I don't want it to change :/

Btw I'm sorry if I sounded fetishistic or offensive with any of this, I just get a bit jealous sometimes that you guys get to date girls and we're just stuck with men. Honestly if it wasn't for all of the homophobia and the struggles that you all have to face and the fact that it would feel disrespectful to the LGBT community, I would probably really wish I could change my sexuality to be bisexual or gay instead because I just think women are better. Sometimes I really do wish I was into women in that way because dating girls just sounds so much more appealing to me (in a non fetishizing weird way) but unfortunately I'm stuck with dating men 🤦‍♀️ But I also know I'm lucky and privileged to be straight even though most men are mediocre and kinda gross and I don't mean to be disrespectful because I know you all have to face homophobia and other LGBT difficulties and it really sucks, people are awful. There's nothing wrong with women dating women or men dating men at all, society is just ugly and bigoted

Anyway, does anybody else have a similar sort of take on Kaylor where they think they could have both been straight and just had a very close friendship with a physical side to it? I think it would explain a lot. But like I said, this is just a theory of mine based on my own situation, and I'm also open to the idea that it was an actual relationship and that they're both into women for real, not just fake "into women" like I am.

Also pls feel free to call me out if I accidentally said anything offensive towards LGBT people, I tried my best but if I made a mistake anywhere pls let me know and I'll avoid it next time!

You’re not offensive. Please stop apologizing. And we’re gonna come back to the Kaylor stuff another time because... Honey. You and I need to have a conversation for a bit.

So firstly, I’m not trying to like “diagnose” you and at the end of the day it’s your choice what you want to call yourself but... tbh you might not be straight. Sexuality is fluid not static and exists on a spectrum not in absolutes. It’s not like it’s straight, 50/50 bi, gay and you’re born knowing and there’s no room for anything else. That’s not true. There’s a lot of room in between all of these and labels can change over time. We’re people, not cereal brands, and sometimes we don’t even KNOW the word for what we might be. I’m tagging a tag for you from when we asked people to share their label journeys for you to see. It’s not simple or easy and it’s not just because of external stuff - it’s because figuring this out internally is HARD. If you found yourself having such an intense friendship it became physical, repeatedly, you liked it a lot, you still sleep in the same bed and continue to share all your thoughts and you don’t want any of that to end... I’m not sure you’re Kinsey 0. And I think you might lowkey have a girlfriend dude. 

You can obviously prefer men but like... hun I reaaallly don’t think you’re completely straight.

Also: it’s okay to say “I see myself winding up with a man and this is a situationship for right now!” but that doesn’t make you straight because again, sexuality is a spectrum and you can manifest a particular kind of endgame while experiencing other things along the way.

But here’s where you really got me: “most men are mediocre and kinda gross” and “women being a lot more physically beautiful than men are, like straight women really got the short end of the stick tbh compared to straight men” because that’s the kind of thing I used to say in my Bi 1.0 era before I ID’d as a lesbian for a bit and before Harry Styles (KING 🥺) made me bi for real. Hun, no. Straight women like men. Tbh BI women like men. I genuinely, unironically, find Harry and Timmy and Matt Smith to be sexy beasts and I would do dirty things to the former two but maybe not the latter irl in 2021 but yes also him if I could be on that Spain trip with him and Karen where they got sloshed and which I think of often. These men are genuinely fucking beautiful to me in the same way Taylor is and Di Silvers is (okay she’s prettier than all of them but like same ~vibe) and like Megan Thee Stallion is and Indira Varma in everything but especially GOT and Gillian Anderson and Keira Knightley. Like those women are HOT to me and SO. ARE. THE. MEN. 

Straight women find SO MANY DUDES hot. So many. Starting from objectively pretty options I just cannot personally understand like Chris Evans all the way through to bitches who are outchea simping for wrestlers and Cole Sprouse. Do I understand? No. But like... that’s straight girl culture and ours is not to judge. 

If you’re struggling to find men hot then... you might be gay.

Also, I’m not sure what you mean by “fake attraction”. Like queer women - especially femme women which I assume you very much are - experience the same kinds of feelings straight girls do. We have women we want to be like and look like and find enviable (me and Oenone Forbat) and women we find aesthetically gorgeous (me and Anya Taylor Joy) and we have extremely close female friends who we can spend hours on end spilling our guts to - as you say female friendships are truly special - and without going into personal people that you don’t know, that’s me and Cam and Sim right? I literally talk to them for hours. Like those are not gay feelings. And yes we can chat about those kinds of feelings with straight girls and call them “girl crushes” and not immediately get “caught out” because they experience this exact shit too.

But here’s the thing. They never do and I don’t want in the cases above to fuck these women. It’s not sexual.

The moment I can actually imagine fucking the women in question that’s... gay. 

Like it’s not “fake attraction” it’s literally just gay. That’s how we desire women. We want to fuck them. Not all women. Not always. But sometimes we want to get under or on top of one and just really truly fucking make each other moan with pleasure.

I have no idea if Karlie or Taylor are into women. They could both literally be straight. I have no idea.

But I have a better idea about you.

Hun, you’re fucking your roommate/best friend and don’t want to stop.

You’re not “into women”.

You’re into this woman.

And possibly into women more generally.

So I know it’s weird to have to be the one to tell you this, and if you want to keep chatting via anon or in my DMs or if you want me to try collate resources for you from around the web but...

Like.

Dude.

You’re a whole ass part of the rainbow.

Welcome to the community you thought you weren’t a part of earlier today 🌈 ❤️

It’s nice here, sure there’s homophobia, but at least we get to fuck girls and man is it good.

[lemuel-apologist]

Writing Server Homophobia, cont.

After we brought up our concerns and talked it over in the queer channel, and essentially came to the conclusion that religion is not an excuse for bigotry, we ended up getting this message from a mod/staff member:

I would like to remind everyone that this chat is not made to be hateful towards those who are religious. And yes, claiming someone hateful and a bigot when their religion doesn't uplift how your live your life is being hateful toward said religions. You are free to disagree with their views, but slandering them and putting them down will stop, because that is being hateful to those of faith. Just because someone does not agree with one part of your identity does not give your the right to demean them.

This is an open chat, and part of that means coming across people that do not agree with your exact point of view, and that is ok. Discussion (especially if someone is looking to properly describe someone in a literary sense) is ok. Planting yourself firmly in the idea that your way of life is being attacked and shaming that person is not ok. If someone comes in willing to discuss and talk and learn, they should be treated with at least some semblance of human decency and politeness regardless of their viewpoints. If things become derogatory towards anyone, remember to step away, take a breath and contact a mod of you cannot carry on the conversation in a calm manner.

This is not a statement pointed at anyone, just some remarks and behaviors we have noticed as of late.

(All typos are in the way this was sent to us. I didn't change anything.)

I'm just... I'm just going to break this down, because it's making me so goddamn angry.

It's not "being hateful toward" a religion when you're pointing out THE BIGOTRY INHERENT IN THE THINGS THEY'RE SAYING. It's not being demeaning, either.

That's not what slander is. For it to be slander, it has to be untrue. Also, these are all written statements. Slander doesn't apply.

It's worth pointing out that a lot of people in this chat are either religious or members of religious communities. It's not just Christians. We have a fair number of Hindus (I'm using that as an example because one of them is very active and very vocal and I adore her).

If you're a bigot, you deserve to get shamed for it. Hands down.

There's a difference between disagreeing with my opinions (like my thoughts on em-dashes and semicolons) and my literal right to exist.

OK, great, yeah, we should help people who are willing to learn. Guess what, though? The girl in question isn't. She's a homophobe who is self-admittedly "against LGBT." We've had people in chat who have asked questions and tried to learn more. We've had that. This isn't that kind of situation, so stop making it seem like it is.

"Planting yourself firmly in the idea that your way of life is being attacked and shaming that person is not ok." SHE LITERALLY IS ATTACKING OUR "WAY OF LIFE," THOUGH. YOU GET HOW SHE'S DOING THAT, RIGHT? YOU GET THAT?

I want to paste in some things that other people in the chat said, because I think they put it better than I ever could.

"there's a difference between people who are against the idea of "religious" people using religion as their excuse to hate the members of the lgbtq+ community (or hate in general), and those who go ahead and attack someone for being religious. just like there's a difference between people who follow any religion that "doesn't support" lgbtq+ community, but simply let them live their life and/or steer clear from them, and those who are blatantly homophobic and spew hate everywhere. and i think everyone needs to remember that."

"no God or religion teaches you to hate people for their identity and if you use that as an excuse for your bigotry, you deserve to get called out for it. Even if it seems "rude" or an "attack". Holding someone accountable for their actions is not an attack. It's calling them out on something they did which hurt people"

I just... I don't know if I can take this. I like being here, I like being a part of this community, but I just... I can't. I can't. Maybe I have to take a break or something. It would suck, though, because I've been there for like a year or more. I don't want to leave, is the thing. But I also don't want to be around homophobes and people who excuse their actions and sanction said homophobia.

[where-our-stories-start]

Okay so since this is going on in the notes:

First and foremost, defending Rowling's transphobia is not okay, full stop. She's intentionally doing real and active harm to trans people in the UK, and she's using her fame and money to do it.

I hadn't hear about Coltrane defending her until it started coming up in the notes. According to all the articles I can find, here's what he said:

I don't think what she said was offensive really. I don't know why, but there's a whole Twitter generation of people who hang around waiting to be offended. They wouldn't have won the war, would they? That's me talking like a grumpy old man, but you just think: 'Oh, get over yourself. Wise up, stand up straight, and carry on.'

Obviously this is incredibly dismissive of trans people's very legitimate criticisms of Rowling, and the very real issues trans people face every day. However, this also feels different from what Rowling does in some significant ways. Coltrane's quote reads to me like the opinion of many older, non-queer people who think that because they're just now hearing about an issue, either it didn't exist before or older generations were better at dealing with it. It's also worth noting that the specific statements he was responding to are very dogwhistly. We know what Rowling's saying, and so does she, but it's deliberately couched in a "what's wrong with saying sex is real?" rhetoric that seems reasonable to those uneducated on trans issues. Coltrane's response is ignorant and transphobic, but the key thing is that it's ignorant.

To me, there is a big difference between someone who expresses prejudice because their privilege has allowed them not to think about certain things, and someone who is actively bigoted despite being educated on a subject. Both are harmful and both are wrong, but how we view the person is different. I think it has to be different. If we want to live in a society where people are encouraged to learn, grow, and become better, we have to be able to condemn behavior without irreparably condemning the individual engaging in it.

One of our biggest issues with parasocial relationships lately is that we put our celebrities on pedestals. We expect them to be flawless, when in fact, I'd argue that fame makes them more likely to be flawed than the rest of us, not less. We can admire people and their work while condemning some of their behavior, just the same way we can have people in our personal lives who we know and love, but who do things we don't approve of.

Jo Rowling uses her fame and money to harm trans people, and she does it on purpose. Many, many people have tried to educate her, and she refuses to change. I feel 100% comfortable condemning her as transphobic and bad, and I do not want to support her. I do not want to give her any money with which to do harm, and I do not want to be ammo for her arguments that people agree with her and are too intimidated to say so. I do not agree with her.

Robbie Coltrane, on the other hand, said things that are undoubtedly transphobic and bad, but appears to have done so out of ignorance rather than a desire to do harm. I can condemn his statements and viewpoints without writing him off as a bad person unworthy of life or of being mourned. I think to do so would be playing into an ideology that is every bit as cruel as bigotry. Purity culture is bullshit. We are not perfect. We do not know everything from birth. We have all had thoughts and views that are wrong or harmful or even hateful. It is not having them that makes us bad, it is holding onto them when we know they're bad. We have to see the inherent value in other people and the inherent possibility in them doing better in the future.

I'm going to mourn Robbie Coltrane, a brilliant actor who helped create one of the most important characters of my childhood. That doesn't mean he didn't have flaws, some of them big flaws. It doesn't mean I support everything he said or believed. I can imagine him complexly enough to thank him for the good he did without believing everything he did was good, and without believing his flaws erased his worth as a human being.

Rest in peace, Robbie Coltrane 30 March 1950 – 14 October 2022