#but does visenya mean nothing to them lol

[bbygirl-aemond]

my brain: rhaenyra being too emotionally and physically wounded from the traumatic stillbirth of her only daughter is a central part of her character within the book. additionally, her ability to wield immense power and present a substantial threat despite not actually taking to the battlefield herself represents a unique perspective of girlbossing that does not rely upon forcing a female character into masucline roles in order for them to be strong. there are many members of team black who fit the girlboss fighter trope already (rhaenys, baela, nettles, alysanne blackwood, etc.) but rhaenyra was the only one who broke this mold while being a force of nature in her own right. in turning rhaenyra into a sword-wielding, dragon-riding girlboss and robbing her of the physical and mental scars caused by her miscarriage, the showrunners are therefore fundamentally losing some of the most unique aspects of her character and eliminating the gendered dimensionality of team black

also my brain: pretty sword for a pretty girl 🥰

[beyondmistland]

I read through all your posts about Alysanne Targaryen as Maegor's daughter and am now in a rabbit hole. Thank you. I've been thinking about Maegor's wives and which one of Henry VIII's wives they represent. Ceryse is Cathrine of Aragon and Alys is Anne Boleyn. The others are hard to pin for me since there isn't a lot. What do you think? Would Maegor's reign have been more interesting if his marriages had more similarities to those of Henry VIII?

I think this is where we run into a number of problems regarding the way GRRM wrote Fire & Blood specifically and the way he setup Westeros more generally.

For one, the fairly homogenized nature of southron culture as well as the oversimplification of religious institutions and history means you can't quite get the same dynamism as from real life European history, with its dizzying array of languages, cultures, cuisines, fashions, etc., to mention nothing of the then-ongoing Protestant Reformation. I suppose GRRM could have had Maegor convert to the Old Gods a la Julian (II) the Apostate or the Drowned God (you just know the Ironborn are the one race on the surface of Planetos that would say King Maegor the Good with a completely straight face) or even R'hllor, which would be the best choice in terms of worldbuilding opportunities in my opinion.

Moving on, we run into a handful of problems with Maegor specifically, one of them being the length of his reign. Look, while I can't deny Maegor ruling for 6 years and 66 days is incredibly cheeky, it also isn't anywhere close to Henry VIII's 36 years as king. With so little room timeline-wise, there isn't a lot of flexibility when it comes to telling new stories and fleshing out preexisting ones and all that is before you factor in Maegor himself.

I won't hold back. For all GRRM's talk of moral ambiguity, the human heart in conflict with itself, good men who were bad kings and bad men who were good kings, etc., his Targaryen monarchs are, for the most part, numbingly one-note. Aegon I is a literal enigma, Aenys is weak, Maegor cruel, Viserys I a party animal, Aegon II and Rhaenyra mirror-images of each other in their disqualifying vices, etc. As I've written before with my post reimagining Maegor as more of a Ivan (IV) the Terrible figure there was room to make him a genuinely controversial figure of historiography but instead GRRM doubled down on sensationalism and apathy-inducing slasher porn for lack of a better word. The fact Maegor is also the first and last of Visenya's line just adds more salt to the wound but that's part of GRRM's more general (and for me personally, vexing) habit of keeping family trees incredibly small.

(I do recall another alternative someone once brought up to the late Steven Attewell. Namely, turning Maegor into the Westerosi version of Macbeth by way of Der Untergang.)

This brings me to my semifinal point. GRRM didn't have to write Fire & Blood as Procopius' Secret History on steroids with a dash of Suetonius' Lives of Twelve Caesars and I, Claudius (the entire Saera episode is practically lifted wholesale from the scandal that envelops Augustus' daughter, Julia) but he did, which is doubly disappointing because not only does the final product suck quality-wise as a result but also because there were so many other avenues available to him.

He could have written Fire & Blood as a proper history (with less focus on the sex lives of teenage girls for one) or as a mirror for princes or as a dialogue between two characters or even as a character study. You can even see GRRM struggling with the constraints imposed by his use of Gyldayn in certain sections like the death of Maelor and the entire Hour of the Wolf episode, where you get reams of dialogue and characterization as well as more traditional narrative trappings like build-up, mood setting, etc.

Now, to answer your actual question (lol), I don't think any of Henry VIII's other wives map well onto Maegor's. Tyanna is, more or less, his female counterpart in terms of cruelty and zero redeeming features and entirely a fantasy construct. Elinor and Jeyne are both married to Maegor for only a year (with poor Jeyne dying in childbirth because Jeyne Westerlings, like the Brackens, Peakes, and Florents, cannot catch a break in Westeros) and before said marriage takes place neither appears on the page. As for Rhaena, well, credit where its due, she was a rare (and unexpected) highlight of Fire & Blood.

Thanks for the question, anon

[silver-dragonborn]

ave you thought about writing angst rhaemond??

I have thought about it and just might go through with it. I've been meaning to write a fic about Rhaena, fed up with trying to earn the approval of a distant father, claims Cannibal and goes on a journey of self-discovery. It starts with an incident on Dragonstone in which Cannibal attempts to hunt down and devour Lucery's dragon. In a moment of impulsive bravery, Rhaena tries to stop him but winds up bonded to him.

Here's a small excerpt from the fic

Rhaena saw the malignant intelligence in Cannibal's eyes and knew that the monster planned to revenge itself on the tiny dragon that had dared to challenge him. He opened his mouth. The fires of the seven hells burned within his jaws. Rhaena thought the creature looked almost as if it were smiling, savoring the moment it would consume Arrax in flame and fangs.

Some strange impulse compelled her to throw herself between Arrax and Cannibal just as he breathed. She fought back the desire to cower as he regarded her balefully, slowly cocking his head to the side as he regarded her like a rabbit prepped for slaughter. And yet, he made no move to attack or spit flame. Instead, slowly, deliberately, Cannibal lowered his mighty head, eye level to hers, and something achingly familiar clicked into place.

I'm not going to lie... Cannibal is a very dangerous dragon and would be a challenge for even the most experienced dragon rider. But, Rhaena will have her hands full with him because Cannibal has known nothing but freedom for so long, and now he's bonded to this slip of a woman? Yeah, it's not going to be easy for them both, but he does adore his human. Cannibal could represent a darker part of Rhaena that she's tried to keep under wraps, and now that the two are bonded, there's a good chance that Rhaena might become a second Visenya.

Anyways, Aemond is going to spot her riding the Cannibal and fall in love instantly. Anyone who can claim the most dangerous dragon is worthy of his respect and attention lol.

[rantingdinguslady]

Seen some crack theories that alaric stark and queen alysanne have an affair, that alyssa was alaric's. Idk if it's plausible but it would be funny that the targaryen line prosper because of a .... bastard. That jaehaerys choose a bastard's son as heir rather than rhaenys, the trueborn 😂.

AND THIS WOULD MAKE THE DANCE AND BLACKFYRE REBELLIONS EVEN FUNNIER.

Even funnier, that makes the starks in the asoiaf main series be related to the baratheons, martells, tyrells, and more.

It would be hilarious for sure. In fact it would make Alyssane interesting that the woman who let her daughters be abused by her husband for having sex, loosing another daughter to death because of stillbirth of a bastard child and having another girl run from them because she saw the writing on the wall, has herself committed infidelity in the past with another man and its the self denial hypocrisy which drives her and her husband abuse every child which shows any signs of sexual or disobedient , headstrong personality that doesn't align with their own narcissistic self image.

However I also think its unlikely because at that point the marriage between Alyssane and Jaehaerys was in a good spot and she was still that girl who ran away from home to pledge her romantic devotion to a guy who thought he was the wisest guy of them all at 14! so I do not see a woman who is enamored with that kind of a man and happy with it for a good while to fall for the gruff charms of a Northern man who was acting like a "disobedient" horse. Not least because I see Alyssane as a Mean Girl(TM)

Mean Girl(TM) Alyssane is your typical society bee who does charity, wants to use poor people's plight as their project to boost their own image. They have OODLES of charm and charisma which can make the most wary of people turn into puddle in their feet if they direct it at you. However its all a front. Behind close doors they can be vicious to those they think don't do what they say. The fact she was so nice to Alaric and his customs but at the same time took the territory under him to give away to the Wall to cull his power, raising one of her daughters against extremist Septas who would eventually reject a great match for her just because he is a "heathen" Old God worshipper??

I see a mean girl hypocrite a MILE AWAY.

We even have a serial character satirizing that type of a person ( in mild way, she is not as MEAN as Alyssane) aka Maya Sarabhai LOL

I don't see any sincerity in Alyssane's personality, nothing deeply likable. Alaric sounds like an honest if bad temperamental guy who just fell for a very strategically charismatic woman 's diplomatic charms and didn't anticipate the blow she and her husband are about to deal to his hard power.

Starks thanks to the Lyanna Rhaegar match ( if not legal one) do have a relation to every major house now and it would only combine further when Jon becomes King (consort) or something with Dany( people are arguing over whether Dany will be Queen or Jon when the simple answer was right front of our face aka Dany as Queen and Jon as King consort ala Visenya and Rhaenys . His obvious parallels to Daemon as more and more time passes [ a man with dubious character confidence of being a bastard and now known as "half wildling" "traitor" etc makes him sound suspiciously like a certain "half hero half villain" "equal parts light and darkness" "rogue" prince don't you think?] makes it clear that is where this is heading)

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

The wealth of House Clegane

@thefeatherofhope had a question about the wealth of House Clegane and particularly Sandor’s access to it. So, let me see if I can clear this up at all...

The founder of House Clegane, the Casterly Rock kennelmaster who saved Tytos Lannister from a lioness (at the expense of his leg and three dogs), was granted knighthood, “lands and a towerhouse”. (Southeast of Lannisport, per GRRM.) A towerhouse is not a particularly big castle -- you can see one example of an ASOIAF towerhouse here, and this site has some great photos and plans of towerhouses especially in its Scotland section.

Notably, the Clegane towerhouse (called Clegane’s Keep, semi-canonically), has a village below it, prosperous enough to have skilled laborers such as woodcarvers. It’s unknown if there’s any other villages on the Clegane lands, nor the exact size of their lands. Southeast of Lannisport is a hilly area, per the maps, and not very far from the known silver mines at Silverhill, but it’s unknown if there’s any mines (silver or gold) within the Clegane lands. But the Westerlands are generally fertile (if not as abundant as the Reach), and the Keep’s location not far from a major city should lead to moderately wealthy estates and incomes. Definitely not great lord level or even great landed knight level, but more likely to be similar to House Webber than House Osgrey (see The Sworn Sword), even if they have a Standfast-sized castle. (I also headcanon that one source of income for House Clegane was the breeding of hunting hounds, which has fallen off a bit since Gregor became the master of the house, but you can take or leave that as you like.)

At any rate, House Clegane was likely wealthy enough from the start to afford the services of a maester (the Citadel requires payment), which the first Ser Clegane would have certainly needed as he was no doubt illiterate. (The second Ser Clegane, Sandor and Gregor’s father, may or may not have been literate, as he was taken as a Tytos’s squire probably around the age of 12, but I doubt he had much more than necessary literacy.) We definitely know they had a maester during Sandor’s childhood, and almost certainly Gregor had one on staff to help prepare the milk of the poppy that he drinks “as lesser men quaff ale” for his headaches.

Regarding tourneys -- the prize for the winner of the joust at the Hand’s Tourney was forty thousand gold dragons. At the time Sandor was captured by the Brotherhood, he had only 9000 gold dragons. While it’s technically possible that Sandor might have spent 30K in a year (Anguy managed to piss away his archery prize of 10K in a few months, spending it on fancy food and fancy girls at Chataya’s), that’s still a lot of money. @racefortheironthrone estimates a gold dragon as equal to today’s $1000, and what in the hell a man like Sandor could spend $3 million on, I don’t even know. (Like, even if he did go to Chataya's a few times, he certainly wasn't bathing in Arbor wine like Anguy did.) I headcanon that Sandor spent some of the money on buying Stranger, but it’s also possible he didn’t take all of whatever he had left with him when he left King’s Landing, as gold is really heavy. (40K dragons could weigh about 800 pounds; heck, 9000 dragons weighs 180 pounds. Sigh, GRRM cannot math.) I very much doubt Sandor is the sort to work with banks at all (though I know some people have headcanoned it: note that besides the Iron Bank of Braavos, there may be the Bank of Oldtown, if it still exists), but it’s possible he buried it somewhere secret. Though if he did, it wasn’t anywhere he had any chance of accessing once he was in the Riverlands.

As for Sandor’s access to House Clegane’s incomes now that Gregor is dead (more or less)... well, there’s a number of problems before we even get to that part. Number one, Ned (as Hand of the King) attainted Gregor for his crimes in the Riverlands. Attainder takes away someone’s lands and titles, and often their right to pass them onto their heirs. However, Littlefinger tells Ned that Sandor will inherit and Ned doesn’t dispute that, so that part doesn’t seem to apply. However however, Ned’s decree was most definitely reversed by Tywin after he was executed, so in fact that attainder is not relevant after all. (But mentioned in case anyone was wondering.) Second problem: when Sandor became a Kingsguard, he gave up all inheritance rights. (He swore no knight’s vows, but he never says he won’t swear the Kingsguard oaths.) However, he abandoned his post, and while there’s nothing exactly that says what happens when a KG does that, it’s definitely not “oh you get your lands back and everything’s fine again”. If it’s like the Night’s Watch, who Visenya modeled the KG vows on, what happens when you abandon your post is execution. (See also what happened to the KG Lucamore Strong when he broke his vows of celibacy.) Either way, what Sandor is now is an outlaw. (For his desertion, and for the Sack of Saltpans, which he didn’t actually do but is believed by the crown to have done, so it counts, alas.) Outlaws are, per their name, outside the law, which includes the laws of inheritance. Legally, if Sandor were to try to claim the Clegane lands right now, he absolutely could not. (Also, from whom? Cersei, the Lady of the Westerlands? (lol omg.) Cersei’s castellan Damion Lannister in Casterly Rock? It gets very difficult.)

So. As Gregor is legally dead, and has no legal heirs, the Clegane lands have reverted to Casterly Rock. If Sandor were to show himself alive, and IF he were somehow to be pardoned for his actual crimes and the nominal ones (how is a very good question, by some grateful king or queen perhaps for services rendered), and if the whole Kingsguard thing was made invalid (again, some royal declaring all of Joffrey’s decrees illegitimate since he was)... then, yes, Sandor might be able to claim House Clegane’s lands and incomes. (And the title too, see this post for details.) But there’s a bunch of great big ifs in there. Really really huge ones. Until they’re straightened out, if they ever are, Sandor’s got whatever’s in his pockets (zilch) and maybe whatever remains of his tourney winnings if he buried them anywhere or otherwise saved them somehow. (Note he gave away the Brotherhood’s IOU, as if they’d ever pay it back, as if especially Stoneheart’s version would.) You’ve got wiggle room with headcanons and hopeful futurefics (and author fiat in fic in general), but in practice? Sandor’s got nothin’.

Hope that helps!