#but I will be fully transparent and say a lot of that is fandom bias because

[666silco]

This is something I’ve wanted to do since my first one, I have updated my character tierlist from s1 to s2 now that it’s finished! I always think these are fun so I just wanted to post them. As you can see my opinions on many characters changed quite a bit. Also these are in order, even for very minor characters. The “first” one is accurate to the one I made in 2022 when I first watched the show, I just remade it so the tierlists match.

[a-froger-epic]

About the Interview

Since I posted the interview with J - a woman who has described herself to me as one of Queen’s first “groupies” - there has naturally been a lot of discussion about the veracity of the interview, the source, and my own motivations in posting it. I fully expected that, and I will say once more that nobody (apart from a small handful of anonymous trolls) has behaved inappropriately in these discussions. I have not received any “hate” because of this. There is no “drama”. Nobody is wrong, or a party-pooper, or attacking me by expressing their doubts. I have seen some awful bile spat at people anonymously recently, and that kind of behaviour has got to stop.

Now, if you don't think I am genuine, there is obviously nothing I can do about that. 

However, what I am hoping to do here is add as much transparency as I can in regard to how and why the interview happened, and also share my own full thoughts on it with you. 

First things first. No unverified, anonymous source can be seen as definitive proof of anything, ever. That is my stance. I have myself been criticised for so much as suggesting that other anonymous sources tied in with Freddie’s history are not 100% proof of one thing or another. But for me, an anonymous source can never mean more than at best: this seems very likely, but we can’t be 100% certain.

Perhaps I was naive to think that what I considered to be enough of a disclaimer at the beginning of the interview, was enough. My intention was to express that while I, personally, believe J to be a) the person she says she is and b) genuine about what she remembers, that does not mean I believe everything she has told me is fact or happened in that exact way. I thought this was obvious. Perhaps I was unclear, and I apologise for that. 

So let me be clear. There is nobody in the world who has perfect, factual recollections of what happened to them almost 50 years ago. Not even J herself claims for one moment that this is the case. She mentions several times that these are old memories from when she was very young, that she indulged in recreational drugs at the time, and that her views - of course - carry a personal bias. All this, I thought, would be enough for readers to know not to take everything they read at face value.

All of the above is why I kept my own thoughts and notes to a minimum within the interview, why I didn’t correct or point out obvious mistakes. I simply assumed that everybody would go away and read the interview against all the sources and information they already have, as I have done myself.

But maybe that was somewhat irresponsible of me, and I should have been the first person to dig into how J’s memories fit in (or don’t) with the information which is already out there, and how to put the two together. While I refrained from sharing all my thoughts alongside the interview (although I have fragmentally done so in response to other people since), others like @quirkysubject​ (here), @iwilltrytobereasonable​ (here), @emmaandorlando​ (here), @sarinataylor​ and @talkingismylifewrites​ (here) all had some very good things to say. All of them make excellent points. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES SEND THEM NASTY MESSAGES. I frankly can’t believe I have to say this at all.

I found myself in a difficult position, because as the person who had spoken to J and asked her all these questions, I did not feel as though I could dissect her words as freely as anybody else. She has put a lot of trust in me, and I do not want her to think that I question her honesty and intentions. Because I don’t. If I hadn’t felt as sure as I reasonably can be that she is the person she says she is, and that her story is genuine from her perspective, if I had been in any doubt about that, I would not have made it public.

Here's the thing:

Even if you don't believe J knew the boys, her recollections of the time period alone are still valuable and incredibly interesting, giving us a glimpse of early 1970s London. 

But I do believe J. Why?

Before I answer that, let me just say: I fully realise that of course the fact that it was my story J happened across, and me she decided to speak to because of it, makes me more inclined to want to believe her. However, other authors I'm friends with, as well as myself, have received messages from older people several times before. It does trigger nostalgia when a story is very strongly rooted in a time somebody has lived through. There are older people in the fandom. (I recently ran a poll and all age groups were represented even here on Tumblr.) 

Now, on to the reasons why my communication with J has felt nothing but authentic to me.

1. She was never in any rush to get in touch with me or relate information to me. It took her a few days to email me after she first spoke to me in the comment section, where I begged her to please get in touch. She then sent me the same email five times, over two days, because she couldn’t quite work my email address out at first. 

I ended up asking several questions more than once to get an answer because they were overlooked. The conversation went off on tangents, and we chatted about her weekend at her friend’s house (and I was presented with a beautiful snapshot of the beach), the memory box her daughter made for her, her work and other things. There were stretches of days at a time when J simply didn’t find the time to get back to me. And I may have badgered her with a few too many emails asking her to please remember to answer my questions when she has a moment. In short, it was the opposite of somebody rushing to share their story. I was doing all the rushing. (I realise that I am asking you to take my word for this, but this did not all happen in a vacuum. @plainxte​, @quirkysubject​, @fingersfallingupwards​, @onegoldenglance​ and @freddieofhearts​ witnessed the process first-hand, as well as my excitement and some of J’s original emails.)

2. J was very trusting. I know her full name, where she lives and her place of work. She sent me current pictures of herself and her husband unprompted. At no point did she ask me not to reveal her identity, that is a call I made because I did not want to expose her to any possible harassment.

3. There were a few things in her account of what she remembered which were so obviously at odds with what we know to be true - it’s well-known John is a bit taller than Roger, for example, but J remembered him shorter, Queen went to Sydney in ‘85, J remember it as ‘84 - that I couldn’t help but think, if I was somebody who was trying to convince others of a made up story, the first thing I would surely do is make absolutely certain to get the facts which are easily findable right. Instead, J always lead with: this was all a long time ago, I’m sorry, I’m doing my best trying to remember.

I realise that a very clever hoaxer could do all this and convince me. But here the question has to be, to what end? This would be quite an act for someone to arrange, to make it seem quite so naturalistic. Nobody would go through the trouble of doing that for nothing. There’s no monetary gain. Scandal? There is nothing scandalous in the interview. Attention? J is barely an active member of the fandom. She has managed to create a Tumblr though: @since72​. There is one post currently. 

It also took her a couple of days to get back to me after I posted the interview.

In brief, I have no logical explanation for why somebody would go to these lengths and fool me so cleverly, with such attention to detail, when there seems to be nothing in it for them. Why then did J bother to talk to me at all? What was her motivation? Well, after I thanked her profusely for doing this, she simply said that she felt she owed me as reading my story had brought back so many memories for her.

All of the above is why I strongly feel that J is very much real and genuine. But I completely understand that it all hinges on the fact that in order to believe everything I say is true, you would have to trust me. And I know that as I am just another person on the internet, you have no reason to do that. But I’ll get to me in a moment.

Here are a few more doubts which I have seen come up with regard to J.

Why would she be reading fanfiction about people she knew? That’s weird.

To be perfectly honest, exactly that was my first reaction, too. But then I thought about it and talked to friends about it. 

Firstly, J says herself that she was never a close friend. I agree that it would be far weirder to read fanfiction about somebody you knew very well. Having said that, John Deacon’s son has been known to read Queen fanfic about his father (and read it out on his YouTube channel). But I think given that it’s been half a century and J has been watching Queen in the public eye ever since, it isn’t really all that strange to read about fictional versions of them.

Secondly, a friend of mine noticed that it seems as though older people in the fandom find J overall more credible than younger people. I’m 35, and it is true that the older we get, the more we look for the things which remind us of our younger years. There is an urge to remember and re-live. You can trust me on this, or you can ask anyone over the age of 30 or 40. Nostalgia is real, and it only comes to you with age. Why would somebody who had briefly brushed shoulders with people who later became celebrities not take an interest in them later? It seems natural that she would. As J says, she never stopped being a fan of Queen’s music and came across fanfic when she looked up Adam Lambert. Is it really so strange that she would find fanfic about them entertaining? Having given it all this thought, I really don’t think so.

It’s unrealistic that she was so young.

This is something I have to disagree with. Times were different. Pete Townshend entered Ealing Art School at age 16, according to Wikipedia. My mother (currently 62) moved 600km away from home at the age of 15 to study piano at music college. I myself moved out from home at 17 (no tragic reasons whatsoever), but that’s beside the point. I have seen it framed in a way where it was said that “It isn’t realistic that a 16-year-old was hanging out with Queen who were all in their 20s”. I agree, it would be a little strange if the story was that one 16-year-old girl was hanging out with Queen by herself as their good buddy. But that is not the story. (Even though it is well-known that during the 60s and 70s, young teenaged groupies did in fact hang out with rock groups very frequently. Of course, J was not that kind of groupie.) She was simply part of a large circle of friends, by her own admission not a close friend of the band. Personally, I struggle to see how this is unrealistic in any way. 

It seems super suspicious that she lost her photos in a flood.

Yes, it does. I agree. J realises that, too. 

Like @quirkysubject​ said in her post, I don’t blame anyone who is too sceptical at this point. But there actually was a pretty bad flood in Australia in 1988.

There are mistakes in J’s story!

Yes, there are! Let me point them out to you. I already mentioned John’s height and Queen being in Australia in ‘85, not ‘84. I also think that her perception that Freddie was taller than Roger in ‘72, but no longer in the 80s, had everything to do with platform shoes. I have to say that I did ask J some questions which I knew were things which are almost impossible to remember about people you weren’t particularly close to. I knew there was no way she would be able to accurately recall their heights, but I still wanted to know what the impression was which she had come away with. I don’t for one moment think she could possibly know why and if Freddie’s nickname was really ‘Freddie Baby’ at EAS well before she went there. But I still wanted to hear what she thought of that. This is why I stated specifically that this entire interview consists of one woman’s subjective opinions and memories. That alone means you can absolutely not take any of it as definitive fact. That just isn’t how memory works.

Kensington Market and the stall:

J’s answers on this one thoroughly confused me. Not only did she say that while she saw Freddie at the market a lot, Roger was hardly ever there, but there was also some Indian man working at the stall during the week (who I don’t think could have been Freddie’s father). She saw Freddie at multiple stalls, a girl named Jill also worked at the stall… and J was under the impression that Roger and Freddie hadn’t even started the stall. None of this made a whole lot of sense to me, until somebody pointed out that the original stall owned by Roger and Freddie must have closed in the second half of 1971. (Sources: Queen in Cornwall & Queen: As it Began)

It is confirmed (same sources as above) that Freddie worked at the market until as late as 1974. I think it is therefore entirely possible that J would have seen him working at Alan’s stall, or helping out at other stalls, and the likelihood that Roger would have come to hang out with him on a weekend is fairly high, in my opinion. Later, reading about Freddie and Roger running a stall, J would have had no reason to think that this wasn’t the same stall she had seen them at. And yes, this is of course only a theory.

The gay pride march:

@rushingheadlong​, who has recently done a lot of fantastic research about Tim, confirms that there’s no chance (as far as we know) that Tim could have been at the march. Did any of them really go? Is J misremembering entirely? Could it be that one of them or two of them went, and looking back, J remembers it as all of them (minus John, however) because she was used to mostly seeing them all together? Does she remember them from another protest march and got it mixed up with the gay rights march? I can’t say. The march and who exactly went is a big question mark. Even J herself is only “pretty sure” that they were all there, and I have to say, I can’t tell you who was where exactly when I think back to when I was 16. Certainly not when there was a big group of people around. And that was only 20 years ago for me.

Lastly, I’m going to try and use the guide our awesome local historian @emmaandorlando​ provided on how to analyse new sources. Of course, I’m not a historian (and I’m also partly the source by being the interviewer, so I can perhaps only do this impertectly), but let’s give it a go.

1. Who wrote this document? 

‘Written historical records were created by individuals in a specific historical setting for a particular purpose. Until you know who created the document you have read, you cannot know why it was created or what meanings its author intended to impart by creating it’.

In this case, the answer is two-fold because essentially I wrote the interview, in as far as that I asked the questions, I gave it shape and presented it in the form in which it came, but the answers are J’s. I completely understand that this is already a big stumbling block for many, because not only am I presenting her as an anonymous source, but many of you don’t know anything about me. If you follow me on Tumblr, you will know that I have shared more with the internet than is probably wise. But still, I am somebody you know little about, presenting to you a person you know even less about. Whether you trust me or not is entirely down to your own judgement and instinct, and that will be different for everybody.

(I’ve seen it said that I’m plugging my own work through this interview. If that was my plan, I’m afraid it’s failed miserably. I looked, and DoA has gained a whopping 2 or 3 kudos.)

2. Who is the intended audience?

‘The relationship between author and audience is one of the most basic elements of communication and one that will tell you much about the purpose of the document. Think of the difference between the audience for a novel and that for a diary, or for a law and for a secret treaty. Knowing the audience allows you to begin to ask important questions, such as; “Should I believe what I am being told?”’

The intended audience is the Queen fandom on Tumblr and AO3. I have no interest in sharing this anywhere else because I’m not familiar with the other fan communities (Facebook? Instagram?) and wouldn’t know how to go about it. For J, the intended audience was mostly me, an author she likes who was very interested in her memories.

3. Why was this document written?

‘Everything is written for a reason. Understanding the purpose of a historical document is critical to analysing the strategies that the author employs within it. A document intended to convince will employ logic; a document intended to entertain will employ fancy; a document attempting to motivate will employ emotional appeals. In order to find these strategies, you must know what purpose the document was intended to serve.’

I got really, really excited. That is the reason. When J got in touch with me, I had a decision to make. I could ask her all the questions I wanted privately and share her answers only with my "inner circle” of fandom friends, or I could share everything with the fandom spaces where I’ve been very active in the last two years. I wanted to share the excitement and decided to do the latter.

I also wanted to present the interview in a way where it would be an engaging, well-structured read and not simply all of her emails to me dumped here with a quick ‘there you go’. So I tried to wrap it in a beautiful “package”, which is why I asked her for her art, for example.

4. What type of document is this?

‘The form of a document is vital to its purpose. The form or genre in which a document appears is always carefully chosen. Genre contains its own conventions, which fulfil the expectations of author and audience.’

An interview, written by somebody who has never interviewed anyone before.

5. Can I believe this document?

‘To be successful, a document designed to persuade, to recount events, or to motivate people to action must be believable to its audience. For the critical historical reader, it is that very believability that must be examined. Every author has a point of view, and exposing the assumptions of the document is an essential task for the reader. 

You must treat all claims sceptically (even while admiring audacity, rhetorical tricks, and clever comparisons). One question you certainly want to ask is, “is this a likely story?” Testing the credibility of a document means looking at it from the other side.’

This is for all of you to decide for yourselves, and that was always the case. Far be it from me to be upset with anyone who straight up doesn’t believe a word I say, doesn’t believe J is real or any other scepticism. I’ll say it again, DO NOT harass anyone for expressing their opinions on this! It is NOT WRONG to discuss a new source! It’s wonderful that people are doing it!

And so, we come to that last question: Is this a likely story? 

Personally, I can firmly answer that with: Yes. In my personal opinion, it is. I find J’s story very likely and there is close to nothing that makes me question that these are indeed her real memories. But given the nature of human memory, they are just as imperfect as anybody else’s and do not, and should not, supersede any factual, verified information we already have.

With that, I hope to have provided a bit more clarity and transparency, and leave you - as before - to make up your own minds.

[bluerosesburnblue]

You don't have to reply, but I just want you to know that this line ("because the easiest way to legitimize those as 'canon' is to attach them to something that you think you can prove is canon.") sums up my thoughts on SRT so concisely. I'm glad someone else noticed how disconnected so much of it is, and I think you're right in your assumption about why.

Hey, I always want to make time to acknowledge people who take the time to let me know how much they appreciate what I do. I really appreciate the feedback from all of you, too! Don’t ever feel bad for coming into my inbox to chat, anon. It may take me a bit, but I’ll always find the time to answer. And thank you

I’m glad you don’t think I’m crazy for thinking that, because the way some people worship the creators and the theory and insist that there’s no bias there (and then come into my inbox and start calling me names for it…) makes me question it, but…

[Incoming discussion about stuff the theory creators have said that’s going under a cut because a lot of it can be seen as anti-Ka*ri/S*Kai and a lot of my followers don’t want to see that]

Look, I started this project intending to take the creators seriously. And I still intend to take the arguments they make in the document seriously.

But are you really telling me that a group of people who post things like “I can’t wait for the dudebros to realize that K/H is extremely gay to leave the fandom and if they don’t accept that it’s gay that they’re lesser people,” “Nomura’s interviews about how in K/H1 Ka*ri was afraid of her and her friends changing and stating in a K/H3 interview that the game would show how relationships changed confirms that S*ra and R*ku are drifting apart from Ka*ri and are going to drop her for each other,” “Peter Pan is an allegory for S*ra and Ka*ri’s relationship because she projects her fear of things changing onto him and eventually she’ll have to learn how to grow up and leave,” “The official translations of the games are bad and intentionally trying to obscure how S*ra and R*ku’s love is developing into a romance,” vehemently declare that SoR*ku is endgame and is the real relationship the games are leading up to, reblog an 80 page essay on how ONE LINE in Toy Box was “mistranslated” and confirms that S*ra is in love with R*ku, and literally have “sor*ku endgame actually” in their Twitter names

…that not even a single bit of bias got into the theory? That none of the things they say publicly on social media is reflected at all in the theory?

I’m not even saying that they’re doing it intentionally. I don’t know them as people, so I can’t make that judgement call! I still fully believe it’s possible that they convinced themselves so much that the series was going to deliver on some big climax for their ship that confirmation bias is making them only see things that support it and reinterpret things to fit that without even realizing they’re doing it. But when they state so clearly that they believe and have believed for a long time that SoR*ku is the intended “canon” ship, that the best course of action for Ka*ri is to get the hell away from their ship even as friends, and that the English translation team has an agenda and is trying to cover up their ship, and then all of this shows up in the contents of the theory, it’s really hard for me to say that there was absolutely no ulterior motive

So I’m going to be very transparent with my own biases here. I have absolutely no respect for the theory writers. I lost it the second I looked on their accounts because it was brought to my attention that people might use the links included in my debunk to send them hate and I wanted to check to make sure it wasn’t happening. These people are among the worst of the worst this fandom has to offer and I’m aware that some of this might leak into the debunk. I’m gonna do my best to make sure it doesn’t, because at the very least I refuse to sell myself short and half-ass my own arguments because I just don’t like the writers. And I still believe that we should look at works for their own merits (while not also ignoring authorial intent, to be clear, but not judging the work solely on it)

But if anyone tells me that this theory isn’t trying to push SoR*ku as canon or remove Ka*ri’s agency and force her away from the SoR*ku ship, they can get lost. Because I am certain that it is

(But also please, please don’t hunt the theory creators down and send them hate on social media. Let’s not stoop to the level of some of their supporters and send the negativity right back at them. This isn’t intended to be a callout post for them, it’s just to show why I’ve read certain things into the theory and how their own well-documented biases have shaped its writing while also keeping me accountable for my own)

[yingyingblurbs]

五  09-26-17

OP-ED!!!

This is VERY old news but I am finally starting to get a bit more into Exo. I enjoy a lot of their music and they always have the best fan fiction to read online. However, with everything good there is bad. I know that every kpop group has their ups and downs. 2pm (my first bias group) went through the turmoil of Jay Park leaving; Big Bang has had multiple drug and dating scandals; T-ara and their huge bullying incident. Anyways, basically what I am saying is that every kpop group has some dirt, nobody’s perfect, but with Exo, I feel like all of it may not have been completely transparent. 

I understand that I have just entered danger territory. Exo-L is one of the largest and strongest fandom in the kpop world and anyone would be stupid to try and go against them. But see here, I am not going against them. What I am about to talk about is part of the past. Something that is irrelevant today and won’t affect me enjoying their music and other activities. Now, let me be clear. This is my opinion only. There are no facts in my observations and most of my assumptions are based on fictional stories with no proof. There. Okay, now to start:

First of all Kris, Luhan, and Tao left Exo for a reason. Some believe it was personal reasons or a management reason. I believe that it is a combination of both. Professional statements to the public, interviews with members, or messages from the company are all reviewed, edited, and tainted. Therefore, not completely correct. Bending the truth is common world of media, entertainment, and kpop. 

The reasons for Kris and Luhan’s departure are not the topic for today. Instead, I am going to focus on Tao. Tao was one of the two Exo maknaes, along with Sehun. Bringing in some philosophy/ darwin talk, every species shuns those that are different. And with this shunning a ladder system is created. (This is why we have racism today: different skin colors + a hierarchy for those colors.)  It is no doubt that Tao looks different from the Korean standard of beauty. This makes sense because he is not Korean, but I will also say, that he isn’t the picture portrait of China’s ideal man either. While looks aren’t the source of Tao’s exclusion, it may be an underlying addition to the equation. 

What surprises me is that when reading Exo fanfiction, fans seem to portray Tao as a little kid. Often the comedic character who has flecks of “dumb” thrown in there. The reason why I brought up Sehun earlier is because these two are/ were both Exo’s maknaes. However, the treatment towards the two seem to differ. Of course their personalities have a lot to do with this. Sehun is more introverted and less likely to make others openly annoyed. I have yet to read a popular Tao fan fiction where he gets the girl and all of exo are there supporting him. (There are a multitude of these stories for Sehun, Baekhyun, and others.) Due to how Tao is treated in shows and in public by Exo and SM ent, even fans have picked up on how to treat Tao in a 100% fictional world. 

I was re-watching the youko interview from a few years back, with Tao was still in Exo and Kris and Luhan had already left. In the interview every member is very happy, playing with each other(...’s junk 😅...). All except Tao. Tao is at the far end right next to Baekhyun. Within the first 30 seconds of the video he is pushed to the side by Baekhyun. He tries to hold Baekhyun’s hand but Baekhyun rejects this attempt and rubs off the “germs” Tao may have touched him with. While it is true that they may have been fighting before this and then they made up, I don’t believe this completely.  It was quite obvious from how the other Exo members were acting that no one was 100% sober as such. Self control over actions and thoughts are reduced to being controlled by the subconscious. Thus, in a normal interview Baekhyun would not have brushed off Tao because in front of a camera you shouldn’t do such rude things, but in this interview Baekhyun’s subconscious was more in control and he was able to act without fully thinking of consequences. [Wow. This is a really long rant... I have homework 😭]

My conclusion isn’t that Tao was being bullied and thus he left Exo. This would mean that I am 100% sure my assumptions are correct, but I am not. Therefore, I am only making a guess that Tao’s fellow Exo members made it easier for him to leave. 

Once Again. This is my opinion only. Nothing is factual. This event is from the far past and it doesn’t affect Z.Tao or Exo anymore. I just wanted to put thought somewhere and this was the place to do it. 

However, if you are also perusing Exo’s past and have a differing opinion. Please enlighten me with information I may not know. As I mentioned at the beginning, I am only just starting to learn more about Exo. I want to learn more so I can fully understand the group and how they have come to be who they are today. 

Thanks, Ying Ying