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the-conversation-pod · 6 months ago

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Mixed Nuts, Part 2: Thoughts on Yaoi

And we're back! Japan is churning them out almost faster than we can keep up, so we dedicated a whole grab bag episode to give them the attention they're asking for. Ben, NiNi, Ginny, and Shan talk what's working and what's not in Japanese BL as we discuss Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun, One Room Angel, Perfect Propose, Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro Ka, I Want To See Only You and I Became the Star of a BL Drama.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Grab Bag Part 2: J-BL 00:02:22 - Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun 00:11:29 - One Room Angel 00:18:54 - A Note on MBS Tunku Shower 00:26:01 - Perfect Propose 00:49:27 - Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro ka 01:04:44 - I Want To See Only You 01:10:55 - I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama 01:26:16 - Outro

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

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00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Grab Bag Part 2: J-BL

Ben

And we're back. Continuing into Grab Bag episode 2, this time we're going to talk about all the Japanese projects.

We are still with pod team members Ginny and Shan. Say hi, Ginny.

Ginny

Hello.

Ben

Say hi, Shan.

Shan

Hi again.

NiNi

We are here to talk about Japanese BL, Japanese drama, all things Japanese, aka Ben's favorite thing, aka Ginny's starting to become favorite thing, aka Shan's actual favorite thing, aka my I'm gettin’ there thing.

Ben

We will be talking about six shows this week. We're talking about Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun, One Room Angel, Perfect Propose, Although I Love You, and You? aka Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yara ka, I Want to See Only You, and I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama.

NiNi, take us in.

00:02:22 - Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun

NiNi

Let's start with Sahara-sensei, which I did not watch. So, Ben or Shan, who wants to complain about this?

Ben

Well, there's no need for you to watch it, bestie, because it was horrible!

Shan

Horrible!

Ben

Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun is a Japanese BL from MBS through Drama Shower about a juvenile delinquent who falls for a new teacher who seems to pay attention to him, and starts to reform his behaviors as a result of this relationship. But the teacher’s got his own baggage, and then the show makes a goddamn mess of all of this. And we have very many gripes to voice!

[exhales] It was not good. Ginny, did you watch this show?

Ginny

I did.

Ben

I feel like you were less pissed than me and Shan. Is that true?

Ginny

I'm usually less pissed than you and Shan.

Shan

I think it's just a natural state—[NiNi laughs]

NiNi

I don't think anybody could be as pissed as Shan. [Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

Right!

Ginny

Scaling for our norms, I think I was about as pissed. I really did not like the show.

Ben

Oh, yes! Go for it, Ginny! Tell it! Kill ‘em. Kill ‘em, bestie!

Ginny

I don't know anything about the source material, but it felt like it was trying to set up two taboo relationships: one teacher student, and one side ship that was sort of step-siblings. And then it completely whiffed both of those and decided, bizarrely, to deal with the taboo nature, particularly the main relationship, as if it simply isn't a taboo.

No one cared! No one cared that this teacher and student were having a romance. It was simply not addressed, or didn't seem to be a concern to anybody. It made the show baffling to follow because it was like they lived in this alternate universe where that doesn't matter, but other things like homophobia do matter—but only sometimes. It was not coherent.

I really enjoyed Toki, the juvenile delinquent. He was delightful. His actor was really fun, and that's really what kept me watching the show for however many episodes it was—six, eight, ten? Eight. That's what kept me watching the show for eight episodes, even though by about the midpoint, it really felt like it was not doing or saying anything interesting.

Ben

Shan, go in and let have.

Shan

Okay, I will! This show is fucking infuriating. I am still so mad every time I think about it.

Ben

[laughs] I can hear it in her voice.

Shan

Ugh! Here's the thing with the teacher student trope: it can be done well. It has been done well. The way that you do this trope well is that you take that relationship seriously. You have to care in the story that there is a power dynamic here, that a teacher has a role to play and a job to do with regard to their students, that they are an adult who is meant to be trusted to guide their students to good life choices, to their own social/emotional wellbeing, to care about their futures, to care about their education. This show just utterly, utterly failed on that front, and it makes the teacher character here completely irredeemable and unbelievable as an education professional. At no point did this show take its own concept seriously. It wanted us to engage with this romance as if this was just a normal teen love story between a teenage boy and a slightly older boy. There was no reckoning with the fact that this was his teacher.

The biggest sin, among many, was that we were shown through the story that Toki was not actually helped by this relationship with Sahara-sensei. We were shown that Toki—because of his feelings for his teacher, and because of his desire to impress this prospective love interest—that he made choices that were harmful to him. That he did not seek help when he was being bullied. That he did not take his education and his assignment seriously because he was too focused on this crush. We began the show with the notion that he was a juvenile delinquent who needed support and mentorship. He's a good kid, a nice kid, a kind kid, and he just needed some guidance. But he didn't get any fucking guidance from this teacher.

Instead, what he got was a distraction and an extraordinarily self-centered adult who really only cared about what he was getting—the confidence boost that he was getting—out of this relationship with his student. Did not look out for this kid, did not help him focus on his studies, did not help him prepare for his future, and did not help him in any meaningful way with the problems that he was experiencing at school.

This show literally ended with Toki [volume increases] graduating, walking out of the school building, spotting Sahara, and chucking his diploma into the fucking bushes so that he could run and kiss his boyfriend, because school's over now and he doesn't have to care about appearances anymore. I actually could not fucking believe that. And the wildest part of all of this is that the show doesn't seem to have any awareness about it. This is not a narrative about a student getting so obsessed with a teacher that he loses his way. This is just being presented as a straightforward, happy and positive romance that we're supposed to root for. It is one of the most baffling things I have ever fucking seen.

NiNi

Tell ‘em why you mad, son! Tell ‘em why you mad! [laughs]

Ben

Bestie, everything you said was true and correct. I will add further that this show does not get the benefit of the doubt of being BL to cop out about a lot of this because of the backstory they give on Sahara and Nekoto—his junior in high school, now fellow teacher. The failure of their relationship is grounded in the realities of homophobia and taboo, so there's no way to approach the Sahara-Toki relationship under the guise of “any m/m attraction is fine because BL,” because the show draws attention to the social and political realities of queerness.

And it's especially frustrating because Sahara actually gives decent guidance to another student: the Todo character, who is playing injured as a basketball player. Sahara talks him down from going into a match that he shouldn't because he's hurt in a way that I thought was really excellent from an educator, because he doesn't tell the kid, “You shouldn't play.” He asked the kid pointed questions, making the kid self-introspect and recognize for himself that he should not play. Which only exacerbates the issues that Shan eloquently highlighted just now about how fucked up this whole thing is, because he does not bring that same awareness to the relationship he has with Toki. It is such a weird experience with this show and I really hated it.

Ginny

I think that about covers it. It just feels like it didn't know what it was trying to do, and it did everything badly.

NiNi

I think that's an excellent tagline. [Ben laughs] So, those of you who watched it, it's time to rate.

Shan, you first.

Shan

I gave it a 3, and I think reflecting in this moment, I want to lower it to a 2. I'm giving it a 2.

Ben

I agree. Go ahead. Ginny?

Ginny

Oh man, so I give it a 6.5. [Ben hmms] I simply don't finish shows that I'm gonna rate lower than a 4 or a 5. On the surface level, there were moments that I really enjoyed about this. As I said, I did like the performance of the Toki character in particular, so I gave it some credit for that.

Ben

I agree with Shan. I originally gave this show a 4. I'm lowering it to a 3. [Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

Let's talk about it again in a couple of months, see where we land.

Ben

I'm giving the show a 3.5 from The Conversation. That is not how the math works, but that's what I'm giving it.

Shan

Feels right.

00:11:29 - One Room Angel

NiNi

Moving on to our next show, let's talk One Room Angel.

Ben, what is One Room Angel about?

Ben

One Room Angel is a story about a depressed man who ends up hanging out with an angel for a few weeks, it feels like, and starts to maybe come out of his depressive spiral as a result, which ends up with some really sad over- and undertones from what we learn about the angel character.

This is a kind of difficult show to talk about from a BL perspective, because I don't really think it's a BL. This wasn't really a romance. From my understanding, the angel character is significantly younger in the source material, and I get why they maybe chose not to go that direction. Shan had more complex thoughts, I think, than I did about the genre assignment of this show.

Shan

I like this show. I just want to say that upfront, I think it's a really beautiful show, a really thought-provoking show. I think it has some really interesting things to say about depression and self worth and finding meaning and life and the will to live. I liked all of its themes. I liked the characters.

I do think that it feels incomplete as a narrative, and it feels like there was supposed to be a romance arc here that got removed. I don't know if that's true, I haven't read the source material, but that's kind of how it felt upon watching it. I don't think it's a BL. There's no romance here. There's what feels more like a platonic friendship to me between Koki and the Angel.

This show has some of the most beautiful cinematography that we've seen in Drama Shower. Some of the visual imagery is really striking, and I still think about it off and on. I like the way that they constructed Koki as this character who is kind of downtrodden, but kind at his core. He's just been through some shit, he's had a hard life. And I like that, I like that he was someone who was very easy to sympathize with. The Angel was a good foil for him. He would come at him in ways that would provoke him and give him some spark, make him feel a little bit alive again, which was what was missing and what was so important.

I think the show wasn't that strong on unpacking the mystery of the Angel and who he had been in his life, and connecting that back to Koki. I think there were a few different threads here and they didn't all come together seamlessly, but I did really like the core story of healing.

I do have feelings about this tendency we're seeing recently in the MBS Drama Shower shows of sprinkling in some non-BLs in the lineup. This is a dedicated time slot that is explicitly meant to be for BL shows, and there have been a couple now in the lineup that don't really fit that bill, and so I do kind of regret that we got this show as part of the Drama Shower lineup instead of another BL. But I'm glad we got the show. I like it a lot. I think it has some good things to offer.

Ben

Ginny, were you able to watch this show?

Ginny

I was! In the interest of precision, because we're talking about it not being a romance, which I do kind of agree with. They do have a conversation about being boyfriends, and they have this cute little beach date and stuff, but it feels like something that's sort of tacked on to make it fit in the BL space. It doesn't feel like it's actually part of their story. The connection that grows between them is, but the romance was not really played out. So even though they kind of give it lip service, it doesn't feel like it's there, which is why we're all saying it's not a romance. I think my favorite thing about the show was the Koki character.

Ben

This is Ginny's favorite character type: the hot mess. [Ginny and Shan laugh]

Ginny

I love a hot mess. I do. He's older, which I also like. He's not especially pretty, which is a nice change of pace. And he's just so down in it and can't seem to get himself out. I do like the story of him sort of getting forced roommate Angel therapy, basically. So yeah, I enjoyed it. I didn't deeply love it.

For the themes that it was getting into, it could have gone deeper. It's got some really dark material in both of the characters' backstories, and it didn't feel to me like it really followed through strongly enough on the resolutions to those things. But it also wasn't a total miss.

Ben

I ended up feeling really complicated about this show. I feel like I was very unfairly comparing it to Eternal Yesterday a lot, and because it wasn't BL I was a little bit frustrated that this time slot was going into non-BL content. Like, it feels like the original thing was BL, and they decided in their adaptation not to lean into the potential romance between an adult and a high school student. A totally fine adaptation choice, but it's like, why adapt this work then? It doesn't exactly work for me as a result.

I really liked the Angel character. I liked how sassy he was, and pushy he was about stuff. Nishimura Takuya; loved the way he played the Angel character. I really liked the aesthetic with his all-white outfit the whole time. I really liked the effort that the costuming department put into his wings. That was not easy, particularly on the budget that Drama Shower was clearly working on. I thought they got a lot of good work out of the animatronics of his wings. I really wish we had gotten more about Koki's yakuza based trauma. There's an allusion to this with the brother that feels a bit incomplete for me. Or the stuff with his mom, Arisa.

There's like a weird ambiguity with the end of this too, where some of the viewers thought that Koki also died at the end, tragically.

Ginny

What?

Shan

Wait, what? I don't think—he didn't die.

Ben

I didn't think he died, but apparently that was one of the reads.

Shan

Fascinating.

Ginny

Huh.

Shan

That didn't occur to me, but you can't really argue with it in a show that leaves things this unfinished.

Ben

Exactly, and that's why I was a little unsettled by it towards the end, because I'm like, “Well, I can't refute that, but also damn!” [Shan laughs] “Y'all killed this man so they could fuck? Shit!”

Okay. [Ginny laughs]

Shan

[laughs] Oh boy, we better wrap it up there.

Ben

So let's rate this experience. Ginny?

Ginny

I gave it a 7. Not bad for what it was. Not great.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it an 8. I liked some of what it was trying to do, but I don't think it fully got there on all of its storylines or really on its themes.

Ben

I gave it an 8 originally. I think I'm going to downgrade it to a 7.5, so we'll give it a 7.5 from The Conversation.

00:18:54 - A Note on MBS Tunku Shower

Ben

Let's discuss Drama Shower before we move to the other projects. As of this recording, we are almost at the end of My Strawberry Film, the last outing from Drama Shower Season 2, and currently MBS has not renewed the Drama Shower time slot for additional projects. They may renew this in the future, but let's talk on the podcast how we feel about Drama Shower after almost 11 projects, the role this time slot has fulfilled, and our complex reactions to all of the projects.

Ginny

I like that they did so many different kinds of things. Almost none of the Drama Shower shows are favorites of mine. There are a lot that I quite liked, and a few that I could see rewatching, but I do appreciate the commitment to do and try a bunch of different things. I hope that something like it gets renewed or gets put in place because, as we discussed a little bit last time talking about genre, I want to see experimental BL. I want to see different ideas and frameworks being explored, even ones that we hated like Sahara-sensei and Toki-kun. I would rather they make a bag of shows that includes a terrible one than just crank out the same reliable favorites, so. While I don't love most of the individual shows, I feel positively about the project.

Ben

Shan, how are you feeling?

Shan

I'm sad at the prospect that Drama Shower might not continue. It did produce one of my all time favorite BLs—Eternal Yesterday—and while I don't always love the shows, I love that we can rely on a steady progression of shows being released. When one show ends, we know the next is coming very soon. Japanese media can feel uncertain. We often don't find out about shows until right before they air. We often find out about a show, but then find out that it's not accessible to us, and we can't watch it. It's been nice to have kind of a steady, reliable place where we know we could go to find a Japanese BL, and I like how, you know, like Ginny said, how experimental it's been. They're doing a lot of different types of shows, a lot of different tones and styles.

A lot of them have been not my favorites. Maybe, like, mid to bad, but there have been a few real gems in this lineup. Not only Eternal Yesterday, but also shows like Jack o’ Frost and Tokyo in April is… These are shows that stuck with me, that I really enjoyed the watch experience for, and I hope that even if Drama Shower as a dedicated time slot doesn't come back, that MBS will keep churning out these shows and releasing them at a steady clip because I think that they are pretty solid. I really like this format for Japan, where they do these six- to eight-episode shows. These tight contained stories. Have a pretty clear sense of what they want to do most of the time, with some exceptions. And I'd like to see that continue.

We've had this kind of recent boom of Japanese BL. And I don't want that to go away. I want them to keep producing shows and I want to always have a Japanese BL airing, ideally. So yeah, I'm hopeful that if not this exact project, that something will come back, that we will continue to get shows that are interesting and a fun watch.

Ben

I'm also a bit sad that we might be losing Drama Shower because I really like what Azuma Kaoru has talked about with it from the little bits of translation we've gotten. They have a real commitment to BL as a genre and showcasing what BL can be. I like the Drama Shower has had two original projects both times it's run. Jack o’ Frost was original and My Strawberry Film is original, and whether or not we end up deciding that these projects were especially good or not, I actually think it's really healthy for BL as a genre to not be as tied to the developmental format where we basically just raid the closet and see what indie writers have been up to and then quickly adapt their shows. I'm really curious what knowing that you're developing for television right away enables with the storytelling.

So, I'm a little bit bummed that we don't know for sure if Drama Shower is coming back right now, but I've really enjoyed this entire project. My average rating for Drama Shower was just under 8, which feels correct. If you like BL, Drama Shower has been a really fascinating project because it's been so varied. We had some cool stuff that came out of it. I thought Mr. Unlucky had some cool ideas. I loved Eternal Yesterday. Takara-kun and Amagi-kun let me down slightly, but I liked it! Like, I liked almost every single one of these outings—except for fucking Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun.

Shan

They really had to come in and ruin it right at the end, didn't they? [laughs]

Ben

For fuck’s sake. I will miss this if we don't get it back, but I really like what we got from it.

NiNi, any thoughts on Drama Shower from sort of only getting our reactions to it and then being prodded about some of the shows?

NiNi

When you were talking to me about some of the Drama Shower shows, you basically were saying these are Japanese pulps. So I've tried to place them in the BL firmament, for me, according to them being mostly pulps. I've only watched three of the Drama Shower shows. I've watched Jack o’ Frost, I watched Tokyo in April, and I watched My Personal Weatherman. Of those three, Jack o’ Frost is easily my favorite, but the shows that I've watched coming out of Japan that weren’t Drama Shower in the last year or two were actually the ones that I enjoyed overall more. So, while I appreciate the role of Drama Shower, what it has done in giving a dedicated time slot, much like in Thailand GMMTV Frigay was a dedicated time slot to help build some bits of the genre. This is kind of similar.

It's a lab, and I think that the genre needs its labs. I think Drama Shower is a good lab, and I'm sure we're going to get another good lab out of Japan again soon. So, yeah, I think that the project was worthy. I only really watched a little bit of it, but I think I could also see how some of the things that it was working through have already started to percolate a little bit through some of the other stuff that we're getting out of Japan. Specifically out of MBS, but also are some of the other places.

00:26:01 - Perfect Propose

Ben

On to our next show: Perfect Propose.

NiNi

Yes, bring it on! I love this show.

Ben

Shan, would you like to describe Perfect Propose for us?

Shan

Sure. Our protagonist Hiro, who is extremely overworked, exhausted, very stressed out by his soul-sucking corporate job, is found, passed out on the sidewalk, by his childhood friend? Sweetheart? Question mark. I think they see that slightly differently, but a childhood friend named Kai, who has also just come into some personal hardship. Kai decides to move in with Hiro to take care of him and also so he has a place to stay. And the story is primarily about Hiro seeing his way out of this really horrible burnout situation that he finds himself in with Kai’s support.

Ben

Second chance romance is my favorite thing in BL [Shan trills] so I had a great time with this show. One of the things the show really focused on was how fucking horrible Hiro's fucking job was.

Shan

Mmhmm.

NiNi

Listen! Oh my God, it was too real.

Ben

I want to talk about that part first because, while I think we all have mostly positive things to say about Hiro and Kai's relationship, I don't want to downplay that particular portion, because the show cared a lot about. And I know, Ginny, you landed on the uncomfortable to slightly put off side of that presentation. It's rare that I see you repulsed when we're watching something. And it was interesting seeing you have a difficult time with that.

Ginny

My issue really was that, as the second half of the show came into play, it became clear that this wasn’t primarily a romance. This was a story about Hiro escaping his soul-sucking corporate job and also being more attentive to his body in the most fundamental sense of, like, his needs as a human being. I felt like I'd been a little bit bait and switched. The setup of the first couple episodes, tt's very much about Kai offering him this physical nurturance, including sexual attention that he was in need of, and possibly their relationship growing. And then it let that be nothing more than a catalyst for Hiro to leave his situation. There was like an episode and a half that were really just fully dedicated to the misery of his job and how and why he was so stuck in it.

I was just like, they're doing this well, but I didn't sign up for it and I'm not enjoying it. [laughs] So that was my experience.

Ben

I respect that. While we're talking about the job stuff, I want to go to NiNi, because I think of all of us, you had the strongest response to the corporate culture stuff.

NiNi

Oh my God, it was like I was seeing myself. So, if you listen to us, you will know that I'm doing this thing where I've restarted my life in my 40s. And the reason that I'm doing it is because I left a job like this. I left a soul-sucking job where I was being gaslit and basically burnt out and destroyed, and so this was almost like a healing drama for me. I would just settle in like, “oh, I'm gonna stab the boss. Oh, he's making him food. I want somebody to make me food. This is so awesome. I'm so glad. Is he gonna get out? I need him to get out. Hell, I need all of them to get out. Why don't they all quit?”

Like, I was having that running commentary in my head while I was watching the show. It was very cathartic for me. I enjoyed everything about it. It was too real. The gaslighting from their boss, especially, was the part that sort of sent me a little bit into a crouch. I was just like, “oh, I'm having flashbacks,” but I needed it. I needed to see Perfect Propose.

It wasn't just an enjoyment for me. It was something I needed to excise from my life and I was able to do it through Perfect Propose. So, it was great for me. The experience was so cathartic. Can't complain about it at all. Fantastic.

Ben

Shan, I remember you having some thoughts because, I don't know that you lived through this sort of stuff directly, but you know colleagues who did.

Shan

Yeah, I'm, I think more on NiNi’s side of the line with this, in that I experienced it as more cathartic and healing. I have been in some toxic workplaces. I've never been in quite the kind of place that Hiro was in in this story like NiNi has. But, I thought it was just a really authentic presentation of that kind of work experience. I thought it was a really genuine representation of the dynamics that can come up in a workplace like that.

One of my favorite things that happened in the show is that Hiro's supervisor left and Hiro became the supervisor, and then he was put in the position of having to drive his team to do the kind of things that he had been driven to do. And he was realizing how limited his options were for breaking that cycle. And I thought that that was just such an important note to include here. It's not the people within the system that are the problem, it's the system itself and it's all reinforcing.

Ben

I was also Hiro in my last job and my team and I, we quit—on my birthday, no less. What an incredible experience. So I started the age of 32 [laughs] unemployed. Which was fun.

I really liked that the show leaned into the work culture aspect of it, that Hiro's previous supervisor was like. “You need to quit, too. Like, I'm leaving. I got a better offer. You are way better than these people allow you to think of yourself as. You should quit, too.” I loved Hiro staying because he thought he needed to insulate his team from that kind of hell. And I love that he failed, spectacularly. Like, he tried to save a younger dev from that and he couldn't.

I really appreciated that they show that there's no amount of effort that overcomes that sort of nonsense. A lot of the times when they do the adult BL, the work part of being an adult feels kind of missing or nebulous. They're mostly using work to recreate the cliquish dynamics of high school to tell those sort of stories, and I really appreciate it that this show, and the next show we're going to talk about actually, don't do that.

I want to refocus now that we've talked about really fucked up, sad work part of this, on the relationship between Kai and Hiro. Part of what locked me in on this show, right away was Kai literally picks passed out Hiro up off the street, takes him back to his house, feeds him some proper food, and then jerks him off so he can go to sleep. Hiro was more than a little overwhelmed by all of this. But that man's skin cleared up the next day.

NiNi

[laughs] He was looking refreshed, restored, rejuvenated.

Ben

We had some complex reactions in our own circle and online about that particular encounter. Ginny, I want to get your commentary on this part because I think you often have the most nuanced appreciation of sexual moments that carry a level of dubious consent. And I wonder if you have any thoughts about that.

Ginny

One thing that you and I have talked about, Ben, is people often put male-female frameworks onto these shows. Which is not to say that consent isn't a problem between men, ‘cause it for sure is. But the way that these dynamics play out and the way that the core relational dynamics between men work is not always comparable and can't always be mapped onto a male-female dynamic.

How I read this scene and how I think it was intended to be read is Hiro can't say, “Oh yes, do this, please,” because he's not in a headspace to accept that this is something that he could want from another man, or really at all. And again, it's really difficult to talk about this without inviting people to map it on all kinds of other situations where it doesn't belong. So please don't do that. But the way this scene is constructed felt very clearly to me like, this is something that Hiro is willing to let happen to him and maybe needs to let happen to him, but is not able to affirmatively say yes to because of where he is in his head, and especially with the way that intimacy develops between the characters later fulfilled the storyline that they set up in that first scene.

NiNi

I feel like this is a place we always land up in with Asian media because of the ways that Asian media portrays and puts forward ideas about what is acceptable sexually, what it is acceptable to want and not want, how it is acceptable to relate in a sexual manner. I feel like these always come up when we're dealing with Asian media. People talk about wanting to change the conversation in Asian media around this kind of stuff, and I fully understand that.

But this story read to me pretty old school yaoi and because of that I got where the headspace of the story was coming from. Like you said, Ginny, this can't be mapped on to everything else. But in this specific story I saw where it was coming from.

Ben

For me, I think I would have been more concerned about their dynamic if not for the morning after conversation in the bathroom. The energy in that scene was Kai being very attentive and almost doing, like, aftercare with Hiro, who was clearly into the dynamic with that whole scene with the hair gel and then him giving him the key so he could stay and then the next episode being like, why has nothing happened since that moment? Which also, like NiNi said, is very old school yaoi.

Shan

Sexual encounters with dubious consent happen a lot in life. It's a thing that happens. I don't need every depiction of it in fiction to be accompanied by someone turning to the camera and saying, “That was dubious consent, and it's bad.” Instead of just letting the context of the story and the characters’ reactions let us know what their headspace was and why it happened.

And I think that the show did that. I think that we understood Hiro and Kai's dynamic well as the show progressed. I think that we saw a pattern develop where Hiro would hope for or want something from Kai, but wouldn't ask for it. And Kai could read him and see what he was going for. I like that Kai got to a point of teasing him about that and pushed him to ask for the things he wants or come right out and say or do something to confirm it. I thought it was quite legible what the show was going for here, so I was not troubled by it. They did a good job of building a believable dynamic for them of Hiro coming to rely on Kai for all kinds of different comforts and as his main source of care and pleasure.

Ben

I think they did a great job conveying that Kai was totally down for Hiro the whole time without it feeling, like, possessive. I particularly enjoyed around—was it episode 5 when they had that kiss on the bench where he's like,”Hirokuni-san, have you made your decision yet?” I thought that was great.

Shan

Pairing that with teasing him with the shots of the delicious dinners he was making at home, that Hiro wasn't making it home to eat. I think the message from Kai always, consistently, was this is all here for you. You just gotta take it. And I like that. That felt adult to me.

Ben

I want to talk about Kai a little bit. We know that Hiro is obviously at the end of his rope when we first see him passed out on the street, people walking past him. We learned fairly quickly that Kai is also kind of at the end of his rope. He's been a neglected, lonely child for a long time, and the only other person who ever seemed to give a shit about him was in the midst of a health crisis, and that guy's son was keeping him away from the dad because he didn't understand their relationship.

NiNi

I really liked, actually, that part of the issue that Kai was having with his boss and his son was that Kai couldn't ask for what he wanted out of the boss. He clearly saw the boss as a father figure and the boss saw him as a son figure, but he couldn't talk about it. It's very Japanese. He couldn't presume and he couldn't put himself in a position where he appeared presumptuous. So he had to take a step back. Be polite. He couldn't say certain things. He couldn't behave in certain ways. This is the situation, I'm going to make myself as small as possible in this situation. And then once it got to the point where he felt like maybe he could have presumed a little more, the son started to understand, “Okay, this is actually sort of a father son dynamic here,” the son backed down immediately. He was just like, “I'm sorry. I didn't understand what you guys were to each other.”

I really liked that. I am often the one who complains about the Japanese non-communication or Japanese communication and how it is frustrating for me, but I thought this was a really good use of it, of Japanese cultural expectations around family and not wanting to be presumptuous about certain things. I really think that it played out really well here. I quite enjoyed that.

Ben

I love the relationship between Kai and the restaurant owner. Few things are more important to a boy than bonding with an older, grumpy man and connecting in the same grumpy way. It's extremely important to your development.

Shan

I like what you said NiNi about Kaiju's inability to communicate what Kenji meant to him and what he was seeking from the relationship, and I like that that was mirrored in Kenji, the restaurant owner, also not being able to say out loud what the deal was, like, why this boy mattered to him. He also kept his mouth shut and didn't explain it to his son, I think for similar reasons. They have a very emotional bond that they both found hard to talk about or justify to other people. I did like that.

I will say, though, that I do think that the Kai side of this show is the weaker element, perhaps of the story. Hiro's narrative was the main narrative, but Kai had a story too, and I do think it didn't get the fullness that Hiro's did, and it was one area where I wanted a little bit more from the show than what we got.

Ginny

This is more to my personal preferences than necessarily show doing right or wrong. I was much more interested in Kai and his situation than in Hiro's situation, so I also would have liked to see more of it. There were a lot of layers to the ways that Kai and Hiro each struggled to take care of themselves or see themselves as deserving care. We did get that fully played through with Hiro and we didn't really get to see Kai’s own dovetailing/mirror image issue of that fully realized and I would have liked to see it.

Ben

Getting back to some of the adult things I really liked in this, I really liked the whole missed opportunity around the festival because Hiro is unable to leave his job and tell him to fuck off. And I really liked Kai, just sort of accepting that disappointment, but getting something kind of interesting out of it by growing the strawberries in the tank they were hoping to use for something else.

I really liked the failure of that moment. Hiro getting mad with himself on Kai's behalf and being frustrated that Kai didn't presume more from him and voicing all of the ways that he kind of was a jerk about the whole festival thing. I think that was one of my favorite moments in the show where Hiro gets mad, but doesn't really have a great outlet for it because he knows he's the one who's at fault. And so Kai's telling him, “It doesn't matter, like, you don't owe me anything,” only frustrated him even more.

NiNi

Yeah, because he wants Kai to expect things of him by that point, and he's not even entirely sure why. But he does want Kai to feel like he has responsibilities towards him.

Ginny

You do see Hiro consistently more upset about other people not getting what they deserve than himself [Shan mmhmms] with Kai in that situation and with his new underlying when he becomes the team lead.

Ben

I'm never getting over that man having a couch that matches the aesthetic of the chairs in his office.

Shan

I clocked that in the first episode and I was so depressed. I was like, no!

[Shan and Ben laugh]

Ben

I remember you pointed it out first.

Shan

I was like y'all, are you seeing these colors? I'm not usually a colors person, either. I don't usually notice that shit. But that was so striking to me that the one pop of color in his entire gray, sad home was that green couch that was the same green as the chairs in his office. Depressing as fuck.

Ben

Before we get to ratings, we gotta do a shout out for Hiori, the junior dev who was clearly a fujoshi who was keyed in right away to watch series.

[all laugh]

Shan

I loved her!

NiNi

She was so ready when they went on the work dinner and she was like, “All right, I'm headed out. I'm going home. Y'all are getting drunk. I'm not sticking around for this, I'm gonna catch the last train” and then Hiro’s drunk and somebody's like, “oh, we're gonna call the guy he's living with.” And she sat back down immediately, like, “He's coming here? I need to see this.”

Shan

Sat her ass right back down and ordered another beer. She was like, “Hell no, I'ma miss that train.”

NiNi

“I'm gonna pay for this Uber ride or this taxi and I'm gonna like it.”

Ben

I loved her. She was like, “Oh, shit, Am I gonna get to see him?” And she got everything she wanted. Kai showed up, sweaty.

Shan

Ooo, sweaty from his run. Mmm.

Ben

Glared at Konoko, like, “Don't you ever fucking put your hands on him ever again, I will fucking kill you. And she was, like, “I got everything I needed.”

[Shan laughs]

NiNi

She didn't even go home after that. She's just like, “Well, I need another drink because that was delightful.”

Ben

I do appreciate that we got to see Hiro, quit that job and stop prioritizing it at the end. Like, he woke up, clearly from them having a good session the night before, like “I ain't answering that fucking phone.” And we saw that the other employees have seemingly maybe left their job because they all looked like they were happy in the park. And they ran into Konoko, as well. So, I feel very relieved by the end of this drama.

Shan

I definitely interpret that group picnic at the end as confirmation that they have all left that awful job.

Ben

Particularly because Sakamoto was also there and I'm really glad that he looked okay.

NiNi

Listen, I was so worried about that kid. I was so worried that I stopped in the middle of my binge to ask. “Listen, you'll need to tell me if this kid is okay, because the last time I saw him, he was having a meltdown. And then they sent him home. And then I have not seen him. So y’all need to tell me that he's fine.” And they were like, “Yeah, he's fine” and then I was able to continue the show.

Ben

So, ratings! NiNi.

NiNi

I gave the show a 9.5. I agree with Shan and Ginny that I wanted to see a little bit more of Kai’s side of the story because I think it was actually quite intriguing. I understand that they didn't have a ton of time and they didn't use their time well, but I would have liked to see a bit more of the Kai side of things.

Ben

Ginny?

Ginny

I gave it an 8.5. I think execution-wise it probably merits a 9, but I did dock it for my own personal enjoyment because it's my rating and I'm allowed.

Ben

Absolutely. Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 9. I agree with basically what NiNi said. I think if they had managed to drive home Kai’s side of the story a little firmer, it would have been a higher score for me. But it's a good show, I really liked it.

Ben

It's not an obvious recommend right away, because then they have to get involved in the discourse and so it’s hard for me to just go, “It's a 10. Go watch it right now!” But I like the show a lot, so I gave it a 9 because there are reasonable knocks on some threads not being fully completed and yaoi considerations around male sex that made me a little bit grumpy to deal with while we were watching this.

It gets a 9 from The Conversation. I liked it a lot, I think it's worth your time.

NiNi

I have to add, whenever I saw Kai’s hands, I kept thinking about the discussion I had with Ben about yaoi hands.

[all laugh]

Ben

He did have yaoi hands.

NiNi

He had massive hands!

Ben

I have started following that actor. His real smile is so fu,n he is worth following on IG.

NiNi

Bestie you know I don't do the socials, but for those of you who do.

Ben

I do. That's what I'm here for.

00:49:27 - Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro Ka

NiNi

Moving on to Although I Love You, And You?—Japanese title Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yara ka. Oh my God I can't believe I got that right the first time around.

Ben

Yeah, good job, bestie.

Shan

Good job, NiNi.

NiNi

I'm not gonna get it right again. So, Ben, what is Sukidoya about?

Ben

Sukidoya is a story about a burgeoning romance between a restaurant owner and a corporate salary man who has recently moved to Osaka from Tokyo. Both of these guys are coming out of failed relationships and find friendship and connection in each other. The restaurant owner already is very aware of his own queerness. Meets this guy and has an instant attraction to him and is determined to follow up on it, but decides that he should probably be a bit more cautious this time, particularly because of some of the cultural differences between Osaka and Tokyo. We get to see them try to sort through what their new potential relationship will look like with the complications that ensue.

This was another show that we had a lot of complicated discussions about while we were watching it. Because you have more consternation than others, Shan, we'll let you go first, and then we'll follow up.

Shan

This is a show that I wanted to like more than I ended up liking. I really loved the main characters in this show. I liked that there was what felt like a very adult setup for the romance. These were two adult men with pasts, with romantic histories who had exes that were present in the story and actually had roles to play. They were coming together across differences, both cultural differences and differences in how they had experienced romance in the past, differences in how they relate, differences in their hobbies and personalities. I was very interested in all of that and I was really excited to get what I thought was going to be a pretty adult narrative about figuring out how to be in a relationship together across those differences.

That's not really what the show ended up being about. There was a lot going on in the narrative here and some of it in the end didn't feel like it justified the amount of story time that it got. Some of it felt like it really derailed the story. There I'm speaking primarily about the insertion of a love triangle into the plot that I don't think ultimately served the story or the characters very well. Sakae’s ex, Mizuki, came into the story around the midpoint and I liked his inclusion initially, ‘cause I liked seeing this mature ex that was in the mix. It's very common for people to still have exes in their lives and we don't see it depicted very often in drama, and so I liked that he was around, that he was coming back into Sakae's orbit, that he was bringing up some issues for him that were maybe throwing a little bit of a wrench in this burgeoning romance that he had with Soga. But then the show really took that much further, turned it into a full blown love triangle, had Mizuki pursuing Sakae again, had him intervening in the romance, getting in the way, dating Sakae again briefly. It was a lot, ultimately, I think too much. It took up a lot of story time. It threw off the trajectory of Sakae and Soga’s relationship development. The pacing of the story felt pretty rushed. It felt like we hadn't really gotten to settle into any kind of relationship with them. Candidly, I am not generally a fan of love triangles. They can be done well and they have been, but this is a romance narrative in which a love triangle was kind of awkwardly inserted to create drama, and that's the kind I really don't like. That was a big negative for me on this show and threw off my investment in the romance.

But it's not a show that I wanna be too negative about. I like a lot of what it did. I did like these characters, this smaller town restaurant owner who's really genuine and straightforward, but maybe not the most socially graceful guy. Being into this nerdy, quiet guy who has nothing in common with him, trying to figure out how to relate to each other, trying to figure out how to communicate across their differences. I really liked those aspects of it. I left the drama wishing that we had gotten a story more focused on that and less on all this random stuff that they were throwing in to create conflict. In the end I was a bit frustrated with the show, but I like a lot of what it was doing and I hope that we'll get more shows like this that focus on adult characters.

Ben

I just learned some fun trivia while doing some research.

Shan

Oh?

Ben

NiNi, the screenwriter of Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yara ka is also the screenwriter on Three Star Bar in Nishi Ogikubo.

NiNi

The DNA is there. I could see it.

Ben

This is also one of the same directors who was on Sahara-sensei to Toki-kun.

NiNi

We shall not speak of it, bestie.

Shan

Don't bring them back into this. [laughs]

Ben

Ginny, of all the shows we're going to talk about tonight, you had, I think, the strongest connection to these particular characters, and I really want to hear your thoughts on them.

Ginny

While I agree that narratively the show did not hold together as strongly as it could, in every scene they were written well, they were acted well, they were consistent, they were who they were. And that, I think, was why I loved the show so much, as it played so well on a scene by scene level. Both of these are, in almost completely opposite superficial ways, men who struggle to advocate for what they want in life. Sakae is extremely a pushover. You see, as soon as his ex walks back into the scene, how difficult it is for him to say no and even earlier, as he and Soga are getting to know each other, it's very easy for him to fall into a rhythm of just doing whatever Sogo wants and enjoys and simply not advocating for himself or his interests at all. So he's this very kind of impulsively outspoken character. He keeps saying things that he doesn't mean to say, but when it comes to actually saying what he wants, he's slow to do that.

On Soga’s side, he's very reserved, and kind of doesn't feel confident enough, I think, in his own desires to advocate for them. Even though he clearly likes and feels very drawn to Sakae, he takes so much of the show trying to figure out exactly what that means and waffling on what to do with that. I really like seeing two characters with the same fundamental issue that expresses itself in such different ways come together and try to build a relationship.

My favorite part in the whole show is after they've started dating, they try to work out this conflict resolution system in such a characteristic way. Sakae knows Soga has been married before, so he says, “What was your ex-wife like? What was your relationship like?” Thinking in his head, “I'm going to become exactly like her, because clearly Soga liked her, so that will work out great and I foresee no problems with this.” And so Soga tells him about their conflict resolution style, which is not Sakae’s style at all, but they try it. They both kind of yes, and each other into doing something that's not gonna work for either of them and they try it for a while and then it falls apart and then they talk it out.

It all felt so real to me as a person who struggles to express and sometimes even to know what I want. I've been in relationships on both sides where that's a major factor and they played it out so beautifully realistically, while still feeling very fun. The show always felt light, even when it was headed into kind of a difficult moment between them. It never let the mood sink too much. I loved seeing that dynamic play out between them and the ways that they tried to work towards each other and often worked harder at making the other person happy than making themselves happy and had to kind of figure out how to do both at the same time.

NiNi

I liked you describing it as them yes, and-ing each other, because that's exactly what that felt like. It felt very improv. I really enjoyed that scene a lot.

Ben

I really liked that we got to see a homo jock trying to date a culture person. That was so fuckin’ funny to me. We don't get to see fitness gays that often, and I had such a great time as a result.

NiNi

It was delightful, and it was more of that city mouse, country mouse thing that they were trying to do, it was so fun. I wish that they had leaned more into the differences between them, more than the external factors.

Of the external factors, I really enjoyed the job one coming up and when it came up in the relationship, and the conflict that that posed. But I think that the ex-boyfriend thing was a bridge too far. I think it was important that we saw the ex-boyfriend to understand certain things about Sakae, but I don't think that they needed to drag that out into him trying to get Sakae back kind of thing.

Ben

I liked Mizuki as a character a lot and I liked them showing Sakae having an intimate, intense relationship with another person. I think on the pragmatic side, from talking about this as a drama, I'm more with Shan in that I don't know that this show set us up for the right expectations and that could be a cultural competency part on our part, because of the thing they were playing with, with the Osaka, Tokyo thing. But I was also hoping to spend more time with these guys as a functional couple perhaps than I think we got? I think it's fine for the show to do what they chose to do with their time, but I think I wanted something from the show it couldn't give us. I also got a little bit frustrated that there was way less food in the back half than there was in the front half because I signed up for a food show.

But, they did give me a great baseball moment, so maybe it’s okay.

Shan

[laughs] They did have a really good baseball scene. I was just gonna yes, and you Ben about the food. The food was a strong presence in the first half of the show. And then it did just kind of disappeared. I wouldn’t really call this a food drama, in the end.

I think one other piece that we kind of discussed live while we were watching that I do think is worth mentioning—not to single this show out, but to talk a little bit about a trend that exists, I think, across dramas—there was a quite a spicy sex scene between Sakae and Mizuki in this show. Far spicier than any scene we ended up getting for Sakae and Soga. Feels like a strange choice that they went to that heat level in a scene with his ex and then kept the heat so low on the current relationship.

One of the reasons I don't like it when dramas do that is because it kind of sends a message that only toxic relationships have hot sex in them, and that when you find your right person when you're truly in love, sex is not that important, or it's not part of the dynamic. And I don't think that's a good message. It's not a sex positive message, certainly—and I don't know or think necessarily that the show intended to do that here—but, it is kind of the effect of that choice that a lot of dramas make to only show hot sex in the context of toxic or old relationships and keep the main couple of a show kind of quote unquote pure. That stuck out to me in this show and nothing that came after that scene hit anywhere close to that heat level. So it did kind of stand out as a weird choice to me.

Ginny

In terms of the general trend, I certainly agree. It is worth noting that that scene was specifically happening in Soga’s imagination, so it wasn't like, “This was how it was.” It's like, “This is how Soga is thinking about Sakae and his ex.” Which in the context of the story gives it a very different meaning. But I do certainly agree with what you're saying about the overall trend in media.

Shan

That's a good point, Ginny. It's a fair one to bring up. I do think, though, if the show is willing to go to that heat level, why are they not willing to go there with the main couple?

NiNi

And we do know that they are having a hot time, because at the end when they make back up Soga’s like, “Look, we know we gotta fuck, okay? So let's just get this relationship shit wrapped up before we do.” And I thought that was delightful.

Ginny

So good!

Shan

It was a very funny line, but it also kinda came out of nowhere, ‘cause we hadn't seen any sexual relationship for them. [laughs]

Ginny

We saw some.

Ben

I get where Shan’s coming from, like, they confirmed that the guys are having sex and they deliver some of the prelude and the aftermath. But it stands out with what they showed with Mizuki. I think minus the Mizuki stuff, we probably don't feel that way.

NiNi

In general, I agree with Shan, yes, but I do agree with Ginny as well that this is really Soga’s imagination. Like really pushing up his fears and anxieties and all that stuff.

Ben

I at least got to make a joke about the need for a robust public transport system [Shan and Ginny laugh], because it's what allows them to be compromised in the end of this. I’m like, “You see that? Robust, fast, frequent high speed rail is the only reason that these gays made it.”

NiNi

Public transport is for the gays, that's the new slogan.

So, ratings, how are we rating this one? Ginny, how about you? What do you think?

Ginny

I gave this one also an 8.5 from the opposite direction of Perfect Propose. I think execution wise it deserves a bit lower, but I enjoyed it so much that I bumped us up to 8.5.

Ben

Shandler?

Shan

I gave it a 7.5 because the execution issues really really bothered me. I think ultimately I really wanted to love it and I was disappointed that I didn't.

Ben

NiNi?

NiNi

I liked all the Osaka stuff. I liked how homey they made Osaka feel. I liked the female coworker who, having been pushed back, decided to become a full on supporter and get these two guys together. I gave it an 8. I had a good time with it. I think it was well done. I could have done without most of the Mizuki arc, but, I enjoyed it.

Ben

I did like Kanda a lot too, and his friend Kanada [Kaname]? Oh man, I really like the friend support group, but this show didn't come together fully for me. I struggle to really talk about it and give a clear recommendation for it, so it's a 7.5 for me.

Which averages out to a 7.89ish. We'll give it an 8. I think that's fair.

NiNi

I think it's fine for it to get an 8 from The Conversation.

Ben

We liked it. Even though it was not exactly what I think any of us was wanting.

01:04:44 - I Want To See Only You

NiNi

Next up, we're gonna talk the latest entry, actually: I Want to See Only You.

Ben, what is I Want to See Only You about?

Ben

It is about how we all really, really loved Kura Yuki in [laughs] His: I Didn't Mean to Fall in Love, and we needed another show with him.

Shan

Oh, man, you're struggling. You can't even deliver the joke, sir, [laughs] ‘cause it's so ridiculous.

[Ben laughs]

Ben’s just trying to score a point off me right now, but it's not working. [laughs]

Ben

Kimi no Koto Dake Mite Itai, aka I Want to See Only You, is a four episode Japanese BL, partially funded by Hulu—that was kind of interesting—in which two boys in high school go through a friends-to-lovers arc. One of them has been nursing a crush for a long time on his friend, and confesses to his friend, and they deal with the complications that ensue from that in a way that I thought was really gentle and wholesome. This was a very short story, but I enjoyed it a lot.

Because it's not that complicated! They've been childhood friends. One of them reveals that he has stronger feelings than just friendship, and the other guy just begins to process that, and we get this really interesting dynamic where they're figuring out what the changes to their relationship are going to be. There's not any real complicating drama here. It's really just about these guys sorting their shit out.

Shan

Yeah, I mean, this show is just uncomplicated. It is heartwarming. It is cute as fuck. It is two nice boys being kind to each other while they navigate a change in their relationship. It's really as simple as that. Sakura confesses to Yuma. Yuma processes the confession. They have a lovely kiss around the fire pit. It's so straightforward and I loved it. It was just nice to watch something that is gentle and kind and lovely, and that's what it is.

I really like this show. I think it's a great serotonin hit—a quick one. And definitely recommend folks watch it.

Ben

Ginny and Nini, did you have time to watch this show?

Ginny

I did not even know it existed until I saw it on the show notes and I was like, “What's that? Oh, well, I'm already doing another show as my homework.”

NiNi

I watched it. It was very short, very sweet. I came away just with the feeling of having really enjoyed watching something, like being wrapped in a nice warm blanket. Watching these two soft boys have a soft time and then all the kooky characters around them. This is one of the things about this kind of Japanese drama that I enjoy, which is all the kooky side characters.

So you've got the two teachers, you've got the girl who has the crush on—I can't remember which boy she has a crush on—and then the boy who has the crush on her. It's so fun. It's so delightful. The teachers are the second best part of the show. I love the teachers so much.

It's just fun. It's sweet. It doesn't require a lot of you. It's very wholesome. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Ben

I was being really goofy at the beginning of this, but I like Kura Yuki a lot and I'm really glad we got to see him in BL again. I thought he was really good in the His prequel, and I really enjoy getting to see him again.

NiNi

He has really sad eyes, which I actually really enjoyed.

Shan

Yeah, he has a really emotive face, I think. I'm excited to see him keep doing more shows.

Ben

There's really not that much more to say. This is a really quick, really gentle show. If you need a really good mood boost, I recommend it.

Ratings! Shan?

Shan

I gave this a 9. It is straightforward. It is sweet. It's an easy watch. Highly recommended.

Ben

NiNi?

NiNi

I also give it a 9. It's incredibly straightforward and cute. I enjoyed it. I like that they couldn't quite figure out how to shift their relationship from friends to boyfriends. They were dating and they're like, “Should we be doing, like, other stuff?” But they were just doing the same stuff that they had always done. I found that delightful.

Ben

I gave it a 9.5 for the terrible pasta they made. [Shan and NiNi laugh]

Shan

We forgot to talk about the pasta!

NiNi

The pasta was so bad.

Shan

[still laughing] Those boys really went outside and picked some tomatoes and just tossed them fully, without any chopping, into a pan and stirred them around a lil bit and put them on top of some fucking limp noodles and called that spaghetti.

Ben

Zero notes. [laughs]

NiNi

The pasta was still semi-crunchy. It was delightful. It was so high school. It was the most high school thing I've ever seen.

Shan

[still laughing] Raw tomatoes and, like, unseasoned noodles? Amazing.

Ben

I really loved it. For your context Ginny, this is when the boys are trying to figure out the shift in their relationship and they make a list of things they wanna do together. Making pasta with the tomatoes they were growing in the school garden was one of those things. And I thought that was a really lovely idea and super romantic. And then because they're a bunch of high school boys who barely know how to cook, they fucked it up badly. But they had a good time together. It was great.

Shan

It was so good.

Ginny

Incredible.

NiNi

Seriously, Ginny, it's a short watch. It's an easy watch. If you're ever in the mood for something to just lift your mood, I suggest watching it.

Ben

So it gets a 9 from The Conversation. It's worth your time. Please go watch it.

01:10:55 - I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama

NiNi

On to the main event, which Ben has literally been waiting to talk about since we recorded the winter series. We're finally going to talk about I Became the Main Role [of] a BL Drama. Ben, you've been basically building up to this moment. Go right ahead.

Ben

I Became the Main Role of a BL Drama is about how these two boys will drown the audience in the BL goodness. [Shan laughs]

NiNi

Oh God.

Ben

It is a BL about making a BL, which is a lot of fun. No shade against Thailand in this, but when they do self-critical BL it's not always the most fun experience because there's a lot of real grievances the people making it need to air—and I completely respect that. But it also can be kind of a downer. When Japan makes fun of BL, they end up seeming to have more fun poking at the nature of the genre and delivering on the comedic beats without it just feeling like a bitch session.

So, in this particular show, we have Aoyanagi Hajime, who is a former child actor who was struggling a bit with his career and trying to figure out how to move forward, and he gets an opportunity to be one of the leads in a BL production against a up-and-coming idol, Akafuji Yuichiro. They are working on a workplace BL and we're mostly on the set of them filming this show. We don't get to see the show itself. I really wish we would get to see the show they made, it looks great.

They're starting to work on the show, and the two guys do not seem to have much chemistry. The reason we learn is because Yuichiro is actually an Aoyanagi Hajime stan, who is internally freaking out the whole time because he's this close to his idol. And they suggest the two guys live together to build up their chemistry. Their relationship gets complicated as they start to develop something between each other, and this complicates their relationship on set as well. But we mostly spend that time unpacking Aoyanagi’s confidence issues.

This was my favorite show. Before I just start gushing about how beautiful I find Akutsu Nichika, Ginny, thoughts on the show?

Ginny

I love this show so much. Just hearing you talk about it, I was feeling little bubbles of delight remembering all of the different scenes and moments and setups. It was just exquisite. It was so fun and so funny. Very comic, but also felt true to these people as people. Love seeing the cheeky BL commentary. Love seeing Abe Alan play this cool, up-and-coming popular idol, who is just smitten with this kind of no-name, famous-for-one-ad guy and just is flailing around, having to try to act BL.

One of the best moments any BL drama will ever give us is him asking Hajime to record that one kinda bitchy line he says for fap material. [Ben and Shan laugh] God, that's the funniest thing that's ever happened to me personally.

Ben

We will not do that scene justice describing it because it's not just about the dialogue of the scenario. It is staged really well. The blocking is a huge part of the joke in that one, because of what other people know or don't know in the background. It's really a great sequence of the show.

NiNi

I loved all of the blocking in that show, all of the stage direction, all the stuff that's happening in the background of all the scenes when they're on set is hilarious. Japanese shows will always reward you for paying attention to what's happening in the background of a scene. And this show, in particular, the background of every scene, is just phenomenal. It is delightful.

Ben

We cruised into the new year watching this show.

Shan

It was both the last show of 2023 and the first show of 2024 for us.

Ben

This show ended, I was like, “We've already decided the winner [laughs] for ‘24. Everybody, pack it up.”

Shan

I love this show. It's a great example of a super high velocity comedy where it's just joke, joke, joke, joke, joke coming at you from all sides in every moment of the show, not just through the dialogue, but through the scenery, through the blocking, through the things that other characters are doing just out of the frame. This thing is just packed, packed, packed with jokes, and so every time you watch it, you will see new stuff that you missed last time. There are so many gags in this, it's just so well done. The command you have to have to deliver comedy in that way with this extremely zippy pacing, in that super-packed content to shove it all into this three hour package. It's just so impressive. It's the kind of precision that most productions can only aspire to.

There was such good visual jokes in this. The reveal that Akafuji had been wearing a fan T-shirt [laughs] underneath his clothes in scenes. There was a fantastic scene with a leg kabedon.

Ben

Hold on, this is fun. Let's go around the group with a gag that we remember until we run out. Shan gave two. NiNi?

NiNi

I mean, I feel like the leg kabedon was a moment, because when I finally watched the show, I literally said, “Did he just do a kabedon with his leg?” and I was instructed [Ginny and Shan laugh] in the ways of Japanese media in that moment.

Shan

Sure did!

Ben

Ginny?

Ginny

Him running after Hajime carrying his Hajime standee.

Ben

After he had previously used it as a shield. [laughs]

Ginny

Yeah.

Ben

One of the gags I enjoyed was all Aoyangi mentioning he was called a bad kisser by his ex, and Akafuji just checks out for that moment, like he's not even listening to the rest of the conversation. He just keeps repeating “moto kono,” referring to the ex-girlfriend over and over again because he's spiraling over it. I enjoyed that one a lot.

[all laugh]

NiNi

Speaking of spiraling! Him fighting with the showerhead.

Shan

[Ginny and NiNi laugh] Oh my God! The showerhead! I still don’t understand what he was doing in that scene, but it was so funny.

Ben

It represents his sexual desire almost being out of control.

Shan

Oh, I got that part. [laughs] I just don't understand what the character was doing.

[Ginny laughs]

Ben

Struggling.

NiNi

When he nearly kissed Aoyanagi, then he went outside and basically hung over the balcony railing [laughs]. Just had a meltdown just from being close enough to almost kiss him.

Ben

The spinning scene on the steps where I was like, “He's gonna kill that boy.” [Ginny laughs]

Shan

Yes! When they were like, twirling each other around on a concrete stairway. [Ben laughs]

There were so many good supporting characters in this, too. I really liked the initial pitch scene with the producers who are describing the vision for the show.

Ben

That was fucking fantastic.

NiNi

Oh my God!

Shan

The level of intensity that they were bringing to their description of this super fucking basic office BL. [laughs]

Ben

Our follow[ers] did not understand the way I lost my shit over this show after the first episode. From the “I will drown the audience in the BL goodness” scene, I was like, “This is it, y'all. This is the show.”

Shan

This is the one.

Ben

“Everyone else can go. I'm done. I found what I needed.”

NiNi

So funny, and literally every time she was on screen, whether it was foreground or background, she was killin’ it. I loved her.

Shan

Every performer in this show was so dialed in at all times, whether they were the focus of a scene or not, they were always doing something important and funny in the background. There was also, of course, the great runner with the managers—

Ginny

The managers!

Shan

—who were carrying on a secret romance.

Ben

We saw them interacting like, “Are they exes? Are they together? What's goin’ on?”

Shan

It was clear somethin’ was going on there from the start.

Ben

They know each other, that's for sure.

Ginny

Mmhmm.

NiNi

They definitely know each other.

Ginny

They know each other.

Shan

They know each other. I was very surprised by the spicy reveal we got [laughs] about their relationship.

NiNi

It was kind of spicy, wasn't it? There was choking involved.

Shan

And then also Ryoga, who was brought in to be a co-star in the show. He was, like, a very well known actor/influencer, I think?

Ben

He was a member of a boy band and they were bringing him in for additional crossover appeal. ‘Cause his strong point was his arrogance. [Ginny and Ben laugh] He walks in the room and they're like throwing fucking feathers for him. And then he starts helping them pick it up. “Thanks for throwing the feathers, guys.” [all laugh]

Shan

This drama! Three episodes, it had a small cast, but it did so much with what it had.

Ben

We were only with this show for two hours, but boy was that a great time.

NiNi

It was so much fun. The producer, the look on her face in the background when the two of them were flirting on set and she caught them? [Shan laughs] Her face was slowly lighting up. [laughs]

Ben

She's like—

Shan

So happy.

Ben

—”Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know.” [all laugh]

I love the manager glaring at his own fucking ward. He's like, “Can you read that line again for me?” and he glares at him. [Ben and Ginny laugh]

Shan

Oh man.

Ben

In terms of the BL commentary, that was fun. There's the whole ramp up of you get selected for a role, you don't really know your costar, there's the reading of the material.

One of the things I really enjoyed with this is that they delved into Aoyanagi really struggling with the fact that he was unable to build rapport with his co-star right away. I like actors getting to play actors and stuff. When Aoyanagi was acting as his character, he was actually really good and was really dialed in. It was really cool how quickly he could go in and out of character. I really liked them showing that he's actually good, but he's in his own head about it because he's really sensitive to commentary from fans, and they reinforce how fan behavior has really potentially negative impacts on actors and entertainers with Kuromiya. He gets cornered by a really aggressive fan, and has to be saved by Aoyanagi in that moment.

I actually liked the moment with Tendo, the female supporting character on their cast, when Aoyanagi’s trying to talk to her about what's going on with Akafuji and he's speaking about it hypothetically, and she's like, “If your co-star is trying to make out with you off set, that's not good.”

Shan

Mmhmm.

Ben

“That's extremely bad.” And he's like, “Wait, but this is a BL story, we're gonna just ride it out for this.” But she's like, “Mmm, no.”

Shan

Aside from how very fucking funny this is, it had some really good messages. The most important thing this show did for me was make it super clear that, in order for the two of them to have a real relationship and have a romance, Akafuji had to let go of being Aoyanagi’s fan. You can't idolize and worship a person if you want a relationship with them. You have to process them as a human being, a full human being, and see them fully for who they are, and not keep them on this fannish pedestal. I really like that the show was clear about that. Being a fan, being a stan of somebody, is not the same thing as loving them.

Ben

It was really surprising as well that the show allowed there to be the commentary about the network, late in production, interfering—getting cold feet about something. The guys had a lot of consternation about whether or not they'd be able to deliver a proper kiss for the intimacy, and then the powers that be pulled the kiss, and you get the sense immediately from the producers that that wasn't their choice, that people with money above them made that decision and they had to just deliver the party line and just accept it.

Shan

That probably brings us to our one real criticism of this show, yeah?

Ben

The reason why the show did not get a 10. [laughs]

Shan

Damn it, we wanted it to get a 10!

Ben

I get what they were going for. They reserved that moment for them. But I'm looking at you TV Asahi.

Shan

Because, they did not deliver a kiss.

Ben

They didn't.

Shan

They did not deliver a kiss in this show. [laughs]

Ben

It’s the only knock.

Shan

They teased a kiss continuously. They showed them about to kiss multiple times before cutting the camera away.

Ben

We got sad kissing in episode 2.

Shan

They implied that they might have been kissing as practice off camera, that we didn't see. And then they ended the show—similarly to Cherry Magic—with the camera zooming in on them, about to kiss, and then a cut to black. It was unsatisfying all around.

It's the one real ding on the show. The first time they did the fake out, we were like, “Oh no, show. Please don't do this. We want to love you unreservedly. Please just deliver the kiss.”

Ben

That's the real sadness of our two grab bags. We did not get a NiNi “I love this unreservedly” and we talked about like 10 shows. [Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi

Everything's got a little ding to it right now, but we'll get that again, I believe.

Ben

[laughs] But genuinely I love this. I really like that for the little time we spent with them, all the characters felt really human to me in a way that was really accessible. And even though they were mostly broad strokes in all of these characters, I got a lot out of it. It was really, truly one of my favorite BL experiences I've had in a long time.

NiNi

I'm gonna give it a 9.75.

Ben

Oh, my God, here she goes.

Shan

[laughs] She’s cheating! That’s just cheating—

Ginny

Cheating!

Shan

—so you can be the most generous.

NiNi

It's not cheating. It is producer privilege. Get it right. [Ginny and Shan laugh]

Ben

Ginny?

Ginny

I gave it a 9.5. Would have been a 10 if they'd given us the kiss, but a truly delightful and worthwhile show.

Shan

Same. 9.5 for same reason.

Ben

I gave it a 9.5 for the same thing. It's a 9.5 from The Conversation.

Shan

But let the record state that NiNi is the most generous. [laughs]

Ben

Truly, we love this. This is one of our favorites. Go watch it right now.

Ginny

I have to rewatch it ‘cause I don't even remember my favorite gags.

Ben

Exactly. You gotta go watch again and get your gags back.

01:26:16 - Outro

NiNi

And with that, we have come to the end of our Japanese Grab Bag. So, what are we thinking about Japanese BL having just run down six of them in a row? Ginny, you go first.

Ginny

Last time I answered this question I was kind of feeling like Japanese BL can do no wrong, and now I feel like, well it can, and has. There have been several less than perfect shows. Still feeling very positive overall. Loving so far—knock wood—some of what's currently airing.

The beautiful density of storytelling that Japanese BL tends to deliver in such a short time, it almost never feels hollow or incomplete. It feels very rich and detailed, and I continue to love and appreciate that.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I am just living right now. What a time to be alive. Japanese BL coming at us, all the time, consistently. It didn't used to be like this. We used to go long stretches with nothing coming out from Japan. No clue what was gonna come next. And now it’s like, we've got these consistently airing shows, we've got shows that are showing up as a surprise alongside that. I think at one point we had six different Japanese QLs airing simultaneously. That's just an unheard of bounty of Japanese QL content, and I am so happy about it. I hope it continues.

With volume, of course, comes some shows that are not gonna hit as well as the cream of the crop, but I still love the experience of watching all of them, I love getting to dig into this much Japanese content. I'm just so happy and I hope it continues.

Ben

I can't believe we got to talk about nine Japanese projects in a single season of this show. That's ridiculous.

Shan

Wow, right?

Ben

I am having a great time, and I'm actually glad some of these shows were flops or duds. As much as I really like Japanese BL, I'm glad that there was a show that I got to genuinely hate in this run [laughs] so that NiNi could see that I'm capable of hating a Japanese project with my whole heart.

NiNi

I did actually need to see that. That is true.

Ben

I'm havin’ a great time. It's really refreshing that so many different networks were involved. We had shows from about five or six different networks, and even if it feels like we're getting a slowdown in spring, I am very glad that we have more projects on the way. There's at least two more Japanese projects on the horizon, so. I'm in a really good place.

NiNi

There's some stuff in there, I think, that we're going to talk about in the Lagniappe about where things seem to be going next season, but for now, that's going to be it from us.

We out. Say bye to the people, everybody, this time in actual chorus: 1, 2, 3.

Ben

Peace.

Shan

Bye.

Ginny

Bye!

NiNi

Oh my God. Y'all are terrible at this.

[Ginny and Shan laugh]

#ben and nini's conversations #lgbtq #podcast #the conversation #on art #bl series #spring series #japanese bl #sahara sensei to toki kun #sukiyanen kedo do yaro ka #although i love you and you #perfect propose #i became the main role of a bl drama #bl drama no shuen ni narimashita: crank up hen #one room angel #i want to see only you #kimi no koto dake mite itai #Spotify

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