#book rhaenys tqwnw

[kataraavatara]

i have a sneaking suspicion that rook’s rest will about rhaenys trying to save baela which is just. rip book rhaenys tqwnw. you would have loved george bush saying now watch this drive.

[amoratearte]

Eve Best serving till the very end, you deserved so much better with your Rhaenys. All her moments of being a true dragon.

“Princess Rhaenys, five-and-fifty, her face lean and lined, her black hair streaked with white, yet fierce and fearless as she had been at two-and-twenty.”

[daeneryseastar]

steve and harry trying to make actual ‘legal’ arguments as to why the blacks are in the right, eve calling the greens annoying, “they’re all just a bunch of knobs and they need their heads being knocked together.” harry, phoebe, and bethany reaffirming how much they all love each other as a family, bethany and matt proclaiming their thirst for violence towards the greens, emma’s “we all have madness on our side, AND a powerful naval presence ofc.” team black is such a fun team when you don’t have an annoying bitch in your ear yelling about how bOrInG they are.

[salialenart]

Rhaenys was born in 74 AC on the seventh day of the seventh moon of the year. As her father was the Prince of Dragonstone, and she was his firstborn child, many considered her as being next in line for the Iron Throne, after her father Aemon.

Queen Alysanne Targaryen, when being presented with her granddaughter, called her "our queen to be".

[amaltheas-garden]

The cringe bastard supporting show!Rhaenys vs the based trueborn daughter supporting book!Catelyn

"It was ever my husband's will that Driftmark pass through Ser Laenor to his trueborn son Lucerys Velaryon. His mind never changed. Nor did my support of him."- HotD 1x08

"I know who he is, Corlys. Alyn's past is no fault of his. He saved his lord's life. He should be raised up and honored, not hidden beneath the tides."- HotD 2x04

"Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law she comes after Sansa... your own sister, trueborn..."- ASoS, Catelyn V, 521

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

According to the Andals and the First Men, Rhaenys TQWNW is actually the rightful Queen

"The Great Council of Harrenhal ruled against equal primogeniture" "The Greens are just defending Andal law" "The Targaryens are imposing Valyrian customs on Andal culture"

meanwhile in the books

“He is no lord,” Alys said scornfully. “My brother Harry is the rightful lord, and by law I am his heir. A daughter comes before an uncle. 

“A daughter comes before an uncle too. If her brother is dead, Karhold belongs to Lady Alys"

 A young man in his prime, Lord Tybolt left no heir of the body save for a daughter, Cerelle, three years of age, whose reign as Lady of Casterly Rock proved cruelly short. In less than a year, she too was dead, whereupon the Rock and the westerlands and all the wealth and power of House Lannister passed to her uncle, Gerold, the late Lord Tybolt’s younger brother. A genial man, known to be exceedingly clever, Gerold had served as regent for his young niece, but the suddenness of her death at such a tender age set tongues to wagging, and it was whispered widely in the west that both Lady Cerelle and Tybolt had died at his hands.

Oh would you look at that. It seems to be that to both the Andals and the First Men the custom is that a daughter comes before an uncle.

Rhaenys, as the daughter of the first born son Prince Aemon, legally comes before her uncle Baelon and his sons Viserys and Daemon.

The lords that voted against her didn't seem to care much about 'Andal law' when they backed Viserys.

All the Greens prove when they wax lyrical about the sanctity of Andal law is that they'll only champion it to usurp a woman, not to crown a woman.

[sweetestpopcorn]

Everytime I read fire and blood, I can't imagine how dirty Rhaenys tqwnw was done. Not only Jaehaerys skipped her as heir, he then made an election where sexist pigs were allowed to vote. Obviously he knew what he was doing, Vaegon knew what he was doing and all knew the outcome of the 101 council. Why would Jaehaerys choose a weak Walserys as his heir though. Could have at least trained him for the role of king eventually, since Aemon's death.

Btw do we know what Daenerys thinks of Rhaenyra

On top of my head I'm going to go with Jaehaerys was interested in keeping his male line on the throne, just out of the top of my head. Trying to impose modern values and views on characters from another universe similar to Medieval Europe would not be the best thing to do imho. Also very unfortunately, since Westeros was mostly ruled by "sexist pigs" they would be the ones choosing, yes. Definitely Jaehaerys wouldn't say "My lords, actually your wives get the vote." Hum... actually going by Alicent, maybe that would have been even worse for Rhaenys.

I think Jaehaerys did this because he wanted to wash his hands from another choice.

As for Viserys, we don't know what kind of preparation he had, just as we don't know if and what preparation Rhaenys had. We also don't know how successful of a ruler she would have been, but what I saw during the Dance and before was Corlys taking center stage a LOT, and Rhaenys kind of being in the background for the most part - except in the Battle of Rook's Rest.

I would argue, however, that having good preparation to rule, or even, being a good ruler, doesn't mean you'll be successful at handling your family, just as Alysanne and Jaehaerys very successfully proved; and actually you can have limitations as a ruler yet be very successful at managing a family - like Rhaenyra and Daemon very successfully proved with their children.

If you want to talk about how dirty Rhaenys was done, I think you can start by bringing up her husband having not one but two bastard children with a woman younger than their daughter and then passing those same children as her grandsons and sons of her dead son.

Now that's being done dirty. But most of y'all just hate Jaehaerys and aren't ready for this convo.

Not. At. All.

No, we don't. Rhaenyra is barely mentioned in the main asoiaf books and I believe there's no scene of Daenerys considering her - which is curious given Rhaenyra's importance and how much she and Dany have in common, but again, just comes to show how George didn't have a whole lot figured out/thought of at the time.

We do have two characters who mention her though.

The first one to mention her is Stannis Baratheron, to call her a usurper and to point out how usurpers need to be punished no matter who they are - I love this part especially since he's s descendent of hers. Thank the gods Rhaenyra was Rhaenyra and not a robot, sir, or you wouldn't be here. #cancelled

The second one is Arianne who is... pretty much trying to compare herself to Rhaenyra when it's like... lady *sigh* you aren't even close.

Some people would say Arianne would be like "You like Rhaenyra? Oh, name her first album". But actually given how George changed the story and characters of the Dance since then... we are pretty much talking about a character with significant differences from the one Arianne is trying to compare herself with - and even then there's not much to go by. Like I don't know what Arianne thought the Dance was about, but it wasn't about some 20+ year old saying "Daddy Love me!" and trying to get his attention by acting a fool. Arianne had daddy issues, Rhaenyra had uncley issues. They weren't the same.

I would actually say that if Arianne said this Rhaenyra would be like "Arianne *sigh* first of it's not samples that you have to give it to everyone, and second, you don't know me. Girl, bye, I'm TeamDany. Bye!"

Arianne:

Rhaenyra:

*Dragonstone

[greenbloods]

Bigtime woobification of rapist Aegon II

oh yeah i didnt even touch hotd in my answer with a bargepole. dont know what they got going on over there that fandom is like a stew or perhaps even a boiled-over soup at this point. that being said i would like to put forth the book versions of larys rhaenys (tqwnw) and nettles as my woobie never did anything wrong ever picks. if you see them do anything wrong no you didnt

[navree]

Hey don't you think it s so frustrating that aegon conqueror never tried to get rhaenys s body like imagine if she lived didn't he think she may be raped tortured like sis deserved to die in her hometown not in desert because of aqar he wanted to win and he ended the was for a letter like honestly I hate him and can't stand him rhaenys deserved better like he didn't even try to search for her body and just assumed she died while hearing people thoughts that she may be in torture rape ...???

I'll be entirely honest, not particularly. The thing is, anything about Rhaenys in Dorne is a huge amount of conjecture after the fact. The consensus at the time, by everyone involved, was that she died when Meraxes was shot down. And honestly, if it weren't for Nymor's letter, that's the conclusion I would draw too. Surviving a fall from the sky on your dragon certainly is possible, but that's not actually known for certain until over a hundred years after Rhaenys herself had died when Aegon managed it after Rook's Rest (and even then, it's not a sure thing since Rhaenys TQWNW also died when Meleys fell from the sky, though we're not entirely sure how). It's entirely reasonable that everyone, Aegon and Visenya included, thought that Rhaenys was just completely dead, and their actions during the Dragon's Wroth clearly showcases that. If they thought she was alive and held hostage, then they'd probably do something other than completely raze every single building in Dorne (other than Sunspear) to the ground, since that wouldn't be very conducive in getting her back. Their incredibly destructive rage seems to point to a deep seated grief that only comes from thinking she's dead, especially for Aegon who was never openly emotional. The Targaryens also don't seem to hold much stock in things like bodies or resting places, they cremate their dead, and if Rhaenys had lived and been able to die a natural death, that's what would have happened to her too, not to mention that if it were my little sister who died, my primary concern would be less "getting her body back" and more "I'm gonna go burn the world down now kthanxbye". So by and large, the general idea was that she was dead, and recuperating her body just to burn it was less important than Aegon's own desire for vengeance.

And like I said, we'd probably all go on believing that Rhaenys had just died in the fall if it weren't for Nymor's letter. It's hard to tell because History Book, but it doesn't seem like there was that much in universe speculation that Rhaenys could have survived until Deria's delegation arrived and gave Aegon the letter, because of how Aegon reacted. It was the out of character steps he took, not just being openly emotional but also becoming incredibly secretive with the letter and the course of events (burning the letter, flying to Dragonstone without a word, returning the next day and immediately agreeing to peace with the Dornish) that got people guessing. This had to have been prompted by some huge news, right, and what huger news would there be than the possibility that Aegon's beloved wife that he burned down a subcontinent for wasn't actually dead, but secretly still alive. And that speculation itself led to trying to figure out how Rhaenys could be alive and the sequence of events that came afterwards still took place which is why the theory involves the Ullers torturing her, since they were a bit crazy, though I've never heard any theory that even mentioned any sort of sexual assault, just run of the mill physical abuse type of torture. But there's no actual evidence that they did, not from any sides, not from court whispers or gossip from Sunspear or even any Ullers bragging about it (which I'll admit is a bit odd to me because if they're known to be "half mad" and had a dragonriding queen in their custody, wouldn't ONE of them at least be preening about it to their friends?), and the entire thing is just people trying to explain a theory after the fact. The entire thing about Rhaenys's fate is that it is so incredibly shrouded in mystery and unresolved that you honestly veer into out and out headcanoning when trying to come up with any sort of cohesion (though, as I've said, I personally find my own theory to be solid, which is that Rhaenys survived, the Ullers then had her in custody, either torturing her or just Keeping her is currently unknown, the Martells found out and took possession of her and then sued for peace with the promise that they would be sending Rhaenys back to Dragonstone so that she could at least die there, or even be cremated there if she died en route, as a gesture of goodwill, which explains why Aegon reacted so strongly, left for Dragonstone so immediately, and was on such good terms with the Martells afterwards).

And when it comes to the idea that Rhaenys died simply for Aegon's war, I honestly take umbrage with that. Rhaenys was her own woman. She was a dragonrider in her own right, she had military victories under her belt, and she was an actively involved reigning monarch along with her siblings. Rhaenys gets a bit of a downgrade in fandom interpretations as The Girl, and that because she was engaged in more classically feminine pursuits, was younger than her siblings, was kindhearted and playful and softer than her brother or her sister, she's seen as less of a force than them. But she was a powerful figure in her own right, not just in the realm at large but also in the dynamics of her own family. If she didn't want to fight in Dorne, Hell if she hadn't wanted to fight in the Conquest, she wouldn't have. She's grown by the standards of her time, she has the second largest Targaryen dragon (and thus presumably the second oldest and the second most powerful) at her disposal, and when the war with Dorne broke out she had a child, if she didn't want to get involved in the fighting under any pretexts (I have a kid to look out for now, I'm queen and I'm important and someone needs to keep the realm stable, bro I just do not want to), she could have and she would have. Rhaenys fought because she believed in Aegon's vision as much as she did, because she believed that her family were the right people to rule Westeros as much as Aegon and Visenya did, and she had just as much reason to want Dorne under Targaryen rule and have a fully unified Seven Kingdoms as much as any of them (probably even more considering she's the one who had the most direct contact with Dorne). Rhaenys knew what it was to go in battle, to risk her life for a cause, and she alone made that choice understanding the ramifications, not to mention that she arguably had the most motivation, given that her son was going to inherit Aegon's throne. Reducing her to just a side character who was a pawn in Aegon's Conquest reduces her role in that story, in the history of Westeros, and fails to understand her as a woman in her own right. Rhaenys was more than just a sister and wife and mother, she was a queen and a warrior in her way and a good administrator and instrumental in several Targaryen victories, and she knew what she was doing when she got involved in the First Dornish War. She wanted to win it as much as anyone, and unfortunately she just wasn't able to see that done.

Nor do I bear Aegon any ill will in choosing to accept the Martells' peace offering. It's not "because of a letter", the letter was just one piece of the puzzle. The truth of it was that the war was essentially in a stalemate at this point. The Martells weren't surrendering, the Dornish people also weren't turning against them, adn the price was getting higher by the day. This war had cost Aegon his best friend and most trusted advisor after Orys was mutilated, had cost him his baby sister and the woman he loved most, had nearly cost him the lives of not just his son and his remaining sister but him as well, not to mention the losses of men in Dorne and just in general the fact that war is expensive. The First Dornish War was costly both literally and emotionally, and Aegon was a king. One of the hardest things about being in any position of government, especially a position where you are the ultimate authority like kingship, is that you have to make choices not based on what you want, but on what's good for everything. Aegon, as I've mentioned in other responses, is something who appears to have really valued doing things for the good of the whole, and even if he personally wanted to continue fighting in Dorne even just to alleviate his grief, being a king means making the choice that's good for the kingdom. So Aegon choosing to end a war that wasn't going to be good in the long run for his subjects in spite of his own personal feelings on the matter isn't out of bounds, that's just what rulers have to do (we're approaching the Ides of March so it's on my mind, do you think that either Antony or Octavian particularly wanted to be on good terms with people like Cicero in the aftermath? No, they all hated each other, but sometimes you do things you don't like for the sake of Your People). There's also the fact that, even above everything, Aegon's priorities were likely also firmly vested in the safety of his children. Aenys was not simply very young but only just starting to recover from his mental breakdown, and Maegor (despite all the issues that would arise from various different factors that would damage their relationship) was still a literal baby. It's very reasonable that Aegon, knowing that the war had already nearly cost him Aenys, and had, as mentioned before, cost him Rhaenys and Orys, decided that enough was enough and that if capitulating would keep his kids safe, especially his beloved eldest son, then that's what needed to happen. He didn't end the war "because of the letter", he knew that the war needed to end and that he and Deria's delegation were likely going to come to some sort of mutual resolution no matter what. The letter was just the Martells sweetening the pot for Aegon because they knew what he had lost (at least in my view) as well as a reason for why they were on good terms later in life.

TL;DR: I'm actually not all that bothered. It is entirely fair to presume that Rhaenys was dead given the circumstances, and in universe speculation that she lived only started after Nymor's letter and everything after that is full on guesswork and theorizing, not to mention that Rhaenys was still her own person who made her own choices and died for her own cause (and it's also entirely fair for Aegon to eventually end the fighting even after she died).

[daeneryseastar]

suffice to say that the morality conflict between those that view rhaenyra as the rightful heir and those that bud in with ‘actually RHAENYS was the rightful heir due to x, y, z’ is everyone involved being intentionally obstinate about the subject because these statements can and should coexist together.

[amoratearte]

Princess Rhaenys was born on the seventh day of the seventh moon of the year, which the septons judged to be highly auspicious. Large and fierce, she had the black hair of her Baratheon mother and the pale violet eyes of her Targaryen father.