#based on what marisha said in 4sd

[ria-the-camel]

high level compartmentalization

[utilitycaster]

Is it just me or are some of the more intense Imaudna folk…kind of mirroring Imogen’s over-defensiveness of Liliana? Or at least uncritically accepting Imogen’s assessment of her, without acknowledging her “bias”? (as we are now apparently calling the characters’ family - so K-pop of us)

I’m not saying she’s a terrible mother - she’s literary moving heaven and earth for Imogen [and herself] - but she’s helping bring about what could be an apocalyptic event, on the off-chance that it could relieve them of their powers.

And I get why people wanna ignore that in favor of Imogen reuniting with her Mom and building a relationship with her. But it’s frustrating when you remember that some of the people her Mom has fucked over include Kiki and the Ashari (not just Orym) and that she’s working with a guy that allowed Trent’s abuse of Caleb, who Beau has spent years working to take down, and we still don’t know what’s happened to those two.

Again - shades of gray, and we all love villains and complicated, messy women. But it’s quite the slice of cognitive dissonance to see fandom *really* pile on Fearne’s parents for abandoning her (especially when it was only six years as far as they knew), but even after she’s party to nearly murdering Kiki, we shouldn’t be assuming the worst of Liliana?

(Just read this back and…I don’t think some these Imaudna fans are actually Marisha fans)

I don't think it's mirroring Imogen, per se. Or rather, I think this is all part of the larger trend I've touched upon for some time: there are a segment of shippers with absolutely no empathy for or generosity towards anything that interferes with the ship. Ideally, they'd like to also support Imogen and Laudna as individuals; but even then the ship comes before the characters. As you said, they're not really Marisha - or Laudna - or for that matter Imogen or Laura fans. They're fans of them playing characters who are in a relationship together.

When Imogen was upset with Laudna for breaking the gnarlrock, there was a pretty prevalent attitude of "but it wasn't LAUDNA's fault, so why is Imogen upset, that's unfair" even though the rock is still broken and it happened when it was in Laudna's possession and, frankly, had Imogen not given the rock to Laudna, she'd still have it. In retrospect this has gotten even more wild, because since then, they've leaned very far into the negative effects Imogen experiences as a result of her powers as an argument as to why she's allowed to do whatever she wants, but at the time if you pointed out Imogen found relief from the rock and is justified in having an emotional response, you were met with screams of HOW DARE YOU BE MEAN TO LAUDNA. This hypocrisy is of course tied into the lack of empathy, because said lack of empathy rests on granting infinite grace to those who support or even merely recognize the ship, no matter their other actions (eg: Otohan), and dismissing the feelings of anyone else.

When Laudna died, it was a pretty common attitude among Imogen and Laudna shippers (I would say Laudna fans, but quite honestly almost every post grieving her was just as much about the ship as the character) that Orym would have been happy to have remained dead because he was a widower. This is a horrifying mentality to have - people's partners do die young, and most people choose to continue living - and was also notably untrue based on Liam's statements both in and out of game. You'll notice that "Orym doesn't want to die and felt like this was a massive failure" on 4SD never took off, but "Orym can't be objective" on 4SD has been blown to ludicrous proportions that show a stunning lack of understanding of like...basic human emotions and their role in decision-making. Because there's no consistency except The Ship.

When the party went to Whitestone, and Percy was in fact played as someone with very complicated and layered feelings about death and dying, and who was not going to change his developed principles for a stranger, he was lambasted. The fact that Delilah Briarwood is just as responsible for his trauma - repeatedly so, she was the architect of both his family's murder and the reason why Vecna achieved godhood, she's literally why his brother-in-law is dead, the Briarwoods have been responsible for two of Vex's deaths - was completely ignored. The fact that Vex and Pike were not spiting him in the end, but rather developed a mutually acceptable plan that permitted Laudna's resurrection with a contingency plan to kill her if Delilah returned led to some pretty harsh criticism of them as well.

FCG was pretty popular among the shippers for quite some time because he wanted everyone to get along and wanted Imogen and Laudna to make up after the gnarlrock fight (note: this is also true of Ashton and Orym, both of whom as discussed have since fallen from grace because they continued to exist as characters with their own thoughts and motivation) and had a lot in common with Imogen. However, a series of things occurred that led to their fall from grace among the shippers. The first was that FCG's coin is why Orym was resurrected instead of Laudna. The second is that Shared Dream was not, in fact, intended only to let Laudna go into Imogen's dreams, but rather allowed anyone in the party to go. The third is that FCG started to find a purpose beyond "help others no matter what," particularly after realizing they had a soul and were in fact a person, and specifically began exploring religion. Religion is unpopular with Imodna shippers particularly after 3x49 and Imogen's consideration of the Vanguard, but there's also definitely a mix of obvious ex-fundamentalists who never unpacked their feelings and instead just want all their fiction to validate their new beliefs. The fourth is that FCG/FRIDA "stole" the first canon relationship spot (which also confirmed that FCG was, in fact, shippable rather than some kind of robot eunuch with nothing better to do than push Imogen and Laudna together). And so you get some really fucked statements. Like, when I say I've seen "I hope someone makes that robot eat their stupid coin" that's not exaggeration; it's pretty much verbatim. That's not a post that a person who makes any attempt to understand experiences other than their own can make in earnest, but it does make sense from the perspective of someone who has decided Imogen and Laudna's relationship is the heart of the show and is angered that five other main PCs exist and have their own interests.

Ashton occupies a truly fascinating space, in that they're oddly popular, in part because their scenes with Laudna are genuinely unmissably fantastic scenes for Laudna. It's one of the only places where Laudna takes off the mask (though she's started to with Orym too). He also overlaps with a lot of what makes Imogen popular, except it's canon where Imogen's is subtext, or it's obviously more severe (Imogen's mom left? Ashton's an orphan. Imogen's had a few headaches? Ashton has chronic pain). So they hated when he pointed out he'd been abandoned by his friends in a way Laudna hadn't (also because Ashton and Laudna's conversation in 3x49 was just far more honest than Imogen and Laudna's, and because Laudna sought them out), but they like him when he's supportive of Laudna. They're constantly on the thinnest of ice because of this and because they're a genuinely compelling character, but because of that, might get in the way of what said shippers want, namely, a hundred episodes of Imogen and Laudna sipping tea at Zhudanna's and having a lovely time.

Following Imogen considering joining the Vanguard, Orym fell out of vogue despite his previous interactions with Imogen, because he very justifiably pointed out, as I've said, that the Ruby Vanguard killed his husband and his father-in-law (whom he saw as a father figure himself), and used a toxin that ensured they couldn't be brought back. I've talked about this a ton and so I'm not going to rehash every aspect, but the fact remains that while I like Imogen's choice to do this - conflict is fun! It makes sense for her character! - it's an incredibly insensitive thing to say. (It blows Ashton's statement about loneliness out of the water, for sure; incidentally, Ashton pointing out the more general hey girl they murder everyone who disagrees did NOT sit well with the hey let's harass everyone who disagrees crowd.) And when you mix it in with the god stuff discussed regarding FCG, Orym has become the periannath non grata of choice to the point of a similar response to the gnarlrock fight - if you sympathize with him, they see it as an attack not just on Imogen but on Laudna, for...not talking about Laudna as well. This has only gotten worse with Orym firmly committing to destroying the Vanguard, to the point that there are, generously speaking, misunderstandings or misrememberings of the text, and less generously speaking, outright lies. A notable one is that Laudna begins to tap into Delilah before Orym nods (Marisha's mention of the purplish hue is at 2:52:02 in episode 3x63; Orym's nod is at 3:01:42, a solid 9+ minutes later); he supports her decision, but he is not responsible for it.

Then there's the guests. Deanna was obviously made to ask Imogen about Laudna. She's here to ask them if they're married. She's here to encourage Imogen to follow her heart. She's definitely not here to have her own active and interesting love life and personal feelings about the gods (that conflict with Imogen's) and history and perspective. Oh she's...she's calling out Imogen's nonstop use of psychic powers? She's having a three-way with Chetney and Fearne? FRIDA is hooking up with FCG and admitted their anger about the gods was mostly due to projecting their personal anger about feeling powerless and having been awoken without their consent? Uhhhhhh Deni$e was obviously made to to ask Laudna about Imogen. She's definitely not here to be a connection to Dariax and have her own active and interesting love life and personal feelings about the gods. Wait, no, maybe Bor'Dor will ask about it? Uhhhhhh *flips coin but not in an FCG way* Laudna will *rolls dice* mentor Prism and this will...make this ship happen? Oh, won't these people with their own distinct personalities and motivations who keep having conversations with Orym and Ashton and each other stop doing that and just presume that a specific one of the four other people in Bells Hells they've never met and probably don't remember the names of is married to Laudna? Won't someone stop playing their character as a fully fleshed out person whose life is entirely unaffected by Laudna and Imogen's respective love lives? Oh and then Bor'Dor did ask about the relationship, and it was because it was a weakness and he was trying to infiltrate.

Quite literally? It goes as far as the gods! Why didn't they save Laudna? To which I'd say sure, let's explore what happens if they did! Let's follow this thread! Do they just save Laudna and maybe her family and no one else? Why Laudna? Does she get saved at the expense of some other dark-haired girl in Whitestone? Or perhaps they save everyone. Perhaps the De Rolos remain in power, and Campaign 1 doesn't fucking happen I guess, and Laudna grows up, and she lives out the rest of her life in Whitestone, and she's a woman in her 50s now - maybe even married, perhaps with children - and has never been to Marquet and wouldn't know or care about some random 20-something with purple hair. Like, what are you driving at here? Maybe the gods let Laudna die because that was the only way to bring her to Imogen. Ever think of that? (alternately: how do you know they didn't? What if Laudna's undead state has to do with Vecna? You didn't specify if it was the Primes or the Betrayers, or how she gets saved; she's still living after a hanging, which some might consider a miraculous gift. What if it was the Dawnfather acting through the Sun Tree? Can you describe what you want the gods to have done and where that puts us in 843 PD or do you just say shit hoping no one will ever poke at it?) When do the gods intervene? Do they make sure nothing bad ever happens to anyone? Are mortals just dolls the gods move around with no free will?

So anyway. I don't think these feelings about Liliana are based on mirroring Imogen's thought process. I do not think there is a level of consideration that Imogen and Laudna have motivations (motivations mean they can be something other than perfect flawless victims who found each other). It is simply "Imogen wants this, Laudna will validate anything she does, and so it's correct." The party line for anything else "fuck your trauma, fuck your dead family and dead loves, fuck your own hopes and dreams and goals: you exist only to fawn over two random-ass women. It doesn't matter if they are strangers to you. It doesn't matter if you've only met one of them. It doesn't matter how they act towards you. It doesn't matter if you're one of them, if you step out of line. This is your sole purpose, and if you fail, you're not a person to me." There's absolutely no thought put into the implications of anything they say beyond "it supports the ship, or, if not, it perpetuates the blameless, perfect and thus boring frozen state of the characters."

[utilitycaster]

You nailed why I'm having trouble with Laudna. Another moment for me is her shortness with Orym when pleading to FCG, some of it potentially explained by Marisha in 4SD: how fucked up the lack of intervention + nod were, Laudna's feelings on it all, potential conflict down the road, etc. But when you see the episode itself, Marisha is pretty clear Laudna isn't really aware of her friends at all, that nothing was going to stop her from killing Bor'Dor. 1/2

I usually don't mind inconsistencies at all, because as people we are never realistically consistent 100% of the time, we aren't always in character, so to speak. But some of this feels inconsistent with what has actually happened and is happening, with the text itself, so it feels so jarring. Anyway, I understand if you don't want to post this, just happy you can put to words what I have trouble articulating myself. 2/2

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Hi anon, thanks! Yeah...I don't actually mind Laudna having conflicting feelings about Bor'Dor, but she doesn't know Orym's underlying motivations (I don't actually find the lack of intervention to be remotely fucked up. Nod kind of is, but I think that's the other thing. We're just guessing at who she's lashing out at, if anyone in particular.)

I think. if I may, the reason all this discussion of Laudna's weaknesses as a character is coming up now is because it was always an issue, but between how much stronger her concept seemed during the Team Issylra arc, the return of Delilah (always a weak point) and the fact that the story itself has hit its stride and a number of other characters have sharpened their focus while she's in many ways taken a step back, conceptually.

I think as others have pointed out, it's 65 episodes in and Marisha's answer in 4SD to any questions about the character concept is still "nightmare about creepy girl." Like, that's fine as a starting point, but what is Laudna trying to achieve? What are you exploring with this? What is she going to do about Delilah now? Will we get any sustained payoff of her grappling with the fact that not everything is fine, or will proximity to Imogen continue to act like a rapid dose of sedative?

What did she do in 30 years, because all we have is "made Pate", "got kicked out of a bunch of villages but also this hasn't been consistently backed up by people's responses to her during the campaign so it feels off", "and got to Marquet" (NO understanding of how she got here, which is pretty egregious). Again, the comparisons that keep being drawn in a matter intended to bolster her relationship with Imogen constantly keep detracting from it - Fjord and Jester had known each other for a few weeks or so prior to the campaign and it felt like it, as did Caleb and Veth's several-month friendship, as does even FCG and Ashton's vague cohabitation of convenience. There is simply no sense of knowing each other for two years. I talked about players who are masterful with negative space recently, and this is the opposite - the missing pieces do not suggest a shape we cannot fully discern. They just fall unused onto the floor.

Even the mechanical build feels mostly designed around a directionless aesthetic. Like, genuinely, why is her base level warlock if she showed signs of magical talent prior to Delilah possessing her? It's not even particularly mechanically superior for her to have done this! Warlock/Sorcerer isn't a strong multiclass anyway, and leaning into sorcerer in a party with a different sorcerer whose engaging with that thematically far more, and not really doing any other work into her opposition of Delilah makes it worse. When you add in that Pate is both one of the more recognizable aspects of the character but Marisha at one point said she had no original intentions of taking that third level in warlock (the one that granted him existence), it all becomes more baffling. And to be clear, characters can take unexpected turns; but there wasn't work done within the story that indicated a level of warlock would make sense (and in fact it would have made more sense to have fought it harder!) There's such a passivity to her warlock side - it's not even an open embrace of darker power, despite what she's said, it's just losing control, which to be honest destroys everything interesting about it, while simultaneously making the stakes of her breaking that pact low. Like, oh, you lose 3 levels and you still have 7 levels of sorcerer? Why haven't you done it then. You were level 7 like a month ago. You'll get better.

I know this all sounds harsh but I think the most recent episode just showed that, pun unintended, there is a hollowness to the characterization and when significant changes to the status quo or thorny philosophical conversations occur, there isn't a solid enough foundation to support the improvisation. There's no sign of intentionality beyond the initial "be spooky." Like, why bring in Whitestone and never consistently explore what it was like living under the Briarwood occupation as a commoner, or what it means to have Delilah in your head? Every piece of the arc feels like it's dropped and picked up when convenient and stops existing when it's not. Like...I don't dislike Laudna, and she has good scenes with characters other than Imogen, and there have been characters I have disliked either for a stretch of episodes early on, or for their entire run, but it just feels like an unprecedented lack of thought into how this character will actually exist and do things for a full campaign. I can't dislike her for her personality or ideology because there's not enough of it to dislike.