#at this point it would have been better if laenor had simply been killed on driftmark

[alicentzwaitinglady]

does anyone have an explanation as to why rhaenyra never told rhaenys the truth about laenor?? i can't find any logical reason for it and it's making me go crazy.

[rhaenin-time]

That sex scene was wasted on Criston Cole and it should have been Harwin Strong like the book suggested.

They even nod to it in the very same episode! Why????

Harwin/Rhaenyra were underdeveloped and it would have added to the tragedy of Rhaenyra then being forced into a match that would not give her heirs — one that she actually fought against in the book partially for that very reason.

Rhaenyra and Cole's fallout would have gone the same way if he'd simply discovered Rhaenyra with Harwin and Rhaenyra had invoked her authority over him for the very first time to order him to keep quiet. Had she put him in a position where he was torn because he is Rhaenyra's protector and he did vow to protect secrets but officially he's sworn to the King, not the Princess.

It still would have knocked Rhaenyra off of Ser Criston's "good woman" pedestal. It would have emasculated a man like Ser Criston for a girl to give him an order like that, for her to then use Ser Harwin or Daemon as a threat to back that order. It would have made him realize he didn't want to answer to a "bad woman" when she ascended the throne. And hey, you could even throw some pining and jealousy in there and make him feel betrayed in that regard.

This scene, and the fallout, would have gone almost the exact same way.

"Oh, no!" you might then ask. "But then what would motivate him to crush Joffrey's skull at a banquet?"

Crazy idea, why don't we consult this handy book full of great recommendations?

What's that? Joffrey dies in a tourney? And not in the middle of a banquet?

Where Rhaenyra gives her favour to Harwin rather than Cole for the first time, and Cole shifts his allegiance to "good woman" Alicent. Where Cole channels his rage through tourney fights and it's left ambiguous both in and out of universe whether he consciously meant to kill Laenor's champion or was just raging at him within 'acceptable confines' with no real goal?

Actually... that would make more sense! And bonus, we wouldn't need to deal with all these willfully uncharitable misinterpretations about Rhaenyra and Cole that attempt to vilify her sexuality. I mean, people would still vilify her sexuality, but at least we wouldn't need to deal with the honestly irresponsible 'coercion' arguments.

Wait... this scene has even more behind it now!

Huh, isn't it strange? That changing plot points to better align with the book doesn't seem to change the story overall? That in fact, it seems to make the bigger story make more sense overall?

Hmm... I wonder why that is?

[goodqueenaly]

Say hypothetically Jaime died or was killed while serving in the kingsguard anytime before Tyrion is convinced as a traitor. Who do you think Tywin would prefer to inherit the rock in that scenario, since he's made both his feelings on women's roles and on Tyrion very clear? Who do you think would actually stand a better chance (since Tywin cannot change the legal succession from beyond the grave)? Does it depend on where they are in the time line regarding Cersei's marriage?

A hypothetical covering the span of Jaime’s service in the Kingsguard “anytime before Tyrion is convinced as a traitor” is a pretty long period indeed; we’re talking about a stretch of time from 15-year-old Jaime’s investiture in 281 AC to Tyrion’s trial in 300 AC. (Let’s not even mention the numerous momentous events in Westerosi history in this period of time, much less the absence of Jaime at any given point would have had on these events.) So, all else aside, I think it would be very dependent on when specifically Jaime died in this scenario as to what Tywin might have done about his own succession.

If Jaime died prior to or during Robert’s Rebellion (again, let’s put aside Jaime’s very significant action at the end of the Rebellion), then I think Tywin would have had to consider whether he wanted to remarry. While Tywin IOTL never considered and would never have considered remarrying himself, he could take this decision secure in (what he believed was) the knowledge that he had his perfect golden heir, Jaime. However, without that perfect heir in his pocket, so to speak, Tywin may have felt more pressured to take a new wife, so that he could have a (male, able-bodied) heir of his own body. Would Tywin have looked to another wife, perhaps in particular another Lannister (like, say, one of Joanna’s younger sisters, or one of the daughters of Joanna’s brother Stafford, or his cousin Damon’s granddaughter Lanna, assuming any were the right age), in order to produce another perfect Lannister male heir? It’s at least possible. (How naming the son of a second wife as his heir would have been affected by the Widow’s Law is of course a completely unanswerable question.) 

Alternatively, Tywin may have looked to Cersei as the producer of his eventual heir. Admittedly, such a plan might have clashed with Tywin’s royal ambitions for Cersei, but between the throne and Casterly Rock, I think Tywin may well have chosen the latter. While I doubt Tywin would have seriously invested in Cersei as a future lady in her own right (any more than he did in Cersei as a queen and future queen mother and regent), I could see Tywin seeing Cersei as an acceptable Lannister broodmare, through which his own precious (to him) bloodline could be preserved and produced in an acceptable (read: male) heir. (Again, it’s far too speculative to determine whom Tywin might have chosen as Cersei’s husband, but I could see a Lannister kinsman like cousin Daven or even uncle Tyrek being selected to reinforce Tywin’s Lannister superiority.)

If Jaime died after Robert’s Rebellion but before the death of Joffrey, then I could see where Tywin would simply have seized Tommen from Cersei and raised him as a Lannister heir. There would have been some historical precedent for this, with Lucerys Velaryon being in his lifetime his “grandfather” Corlys’ heir as (ostensibly) the second son of Corlys’ late son, Laenor. With Joffrey assumed to inherit the Iron Throne, Tywin would have, in a sense, the large-scale Lannister political domination he had attempted to achieve in ASOS (notably expressed through the twin Valyrian steel swords made from Ice): the King on the Iron Throne and the Lord of Casterly Rock as the two heads of the Lannister family, inextricably binding the throne to House Lannister in perpetuity.  

If Jaime died in the short window between the Purple Wedding and Tyrion losing his trial by combat, then I think Tywin would have had to choose (or at least believed he had to choose) between versions of the above. Given that Tywin IOTL was ready to taking the new King Tommen back to the Rock to “learn to be a Lannister”, I could see Tywin perhaps simply naming Tommen his heir and installing him at an official or de facto new royal court at the Rock (something along what he had done during Aerys II's reign), fully merging the identities of the royal dynasty and House Lannister as he had begun to ahead of Joffrey’s wedding. Tywin may also have pushed the idea of Cersei’s remarriage even harder in this scenario, which he was already beginning to do IOTL (though whether he would have been so eager to wed her to Oberyn Martell, his preferred choice in ASOS, with Oberyn now poised to father the next generation of Lannister heirs is a more speculative question). Tywin may even have decided that when Tommen had sons of his own, the second son would inherit Casterly Rock - though this succession idea may have been too uncertain for Tywin’s taste, given that Tommen was probably the better part of a decade away from fathering multiple sons of his own (let’s put aside Cregan Stark’s apparent willingness to bet on a similar potential through the Pact of Ice and Fire).

About the only certain takeaway I think we can have in any version of this scenario is that Tywin would have done everything in his power to keep Casterly Rock out of Tyrion’s hands. While Tywin may not have gone quite so far as forcing Tyrion into the Faith, Citadel, or Night’s Watch - Tywin’s obsessive focus on Lannister exceptionalism (and the primacy of his own line within that) meaning that even the lowest and least of the main-line Lannisters, as he saw Tyrion, was superior in rank to every other aristocrat, and so unfit for a life of servitude - I very much believe Tywin would never admit that Tyrion had any right to Casterly Rock (much less the best claim as the most senior eligible legitimate male descendant of Tywin even IOTL). 

[horizon-verizon]

Personally I take a show! Rhaenys as an affront against me.

The first time I read about dance, I was about 17? (and if I'm not mistaken I had only read until feast and I met her through world of ice and fire) And I thought she was the most impressive character in the entire book despite having such a small mention.It was incredibly important to me to have this woman who was overlooked simply for being a woman and supported the next woman who found herself in that situation faithfully, to the point that he died fighting for her and her claim.

There is an underlying idea that women of past generations who had been hurt, offended and overlooked said "no, you. You will succeed and I will help you." I found it incredibly beautiful, it was powerful, it was something I wanted in my life.

So when the show tries to eliminate this sonority *hurts* and I find it unforgivable.

Show!Rhaenys is mean to Rhaenyra, she failed and considers herself morally and intellectually superior to the rest of the women around her, but since she was never successful no other woman ever did.She sees the traps, she lived the traps and instead of telling the women who come after "just because it's hard and it's going to be bloody doesn't mean you should give up" tells them "you better not try it, give up because the cost is not worth it (although I didn't even try)"

Rhaenys' death in the show will lose all its meaning, because whatever the reason she dies, she will not be dying for the cause and archetypically that mattered.

Her death may be painful for those who like the character, but it will lack true weight, which is what matters when you tell a story, especially a story with a *message*.

I would dare say that in the original story Rhaenyra represents the symbol, the piece to be crowned or sacrificed.Alicent and Rhaenys are contrasts at two extremes.Alicent the woman at the service of the patriarchy who will sacrifice other women if it gives her some indirect power, Rhaenys, the woman who will fight against The Status Quo even if she is not the one who will embody the power she fights for.

I'm just saying that they took a simple story, with a theme and a message and characters that embody and build archetypes and transformed it into a 6 o'clock soap opera and I can't forgive them for that.I especially can't forgive them for what they did to Rhaenys.

Maybe responding to this post.

Rhaenys' death in the show will lose all its meaning, because whatever the reason she dies, she will not be dying for the cause and archetypically that mattered.

As you say, it will be those who always rooted for her or those who haven't really prioritized/clocked what Rhaenyra's story's significance as a anti-misogyny piece it was or want to be ignorant about how the unreliable narrators of F&B actually operate (I mean, this is the same woman who wanted to join her dad to battle the Myrish while she was trill pregnant with either Laena or Laenor...why can't she be the women who argued for them to burn down the Red Keep?!). What's infuriating, anon, is that some people will probabaly argue that you built up a false or very flawed and trussed up image of Rhaenys in your head once they learn abt you having been 17 when you read this...as if 17 year olds don't read far more complex literary work, and those with unreliable narrators all the time!!!

Ever since show!Rhaenys didn't kill the greens when she had the chance, the overall enthusiasm around her character has dropped and stayed steady, at least from what I've seen. Yeah it makes sense for her to not want to perform first blood and truely ensure a war...but then what was the whole point of her standing there for a few minutes on Meleys as if she were contemplating it? Does it really take that long to get to that logical point when you already have shown and acted to keep yourself and Baela out of the "g v b" business?! This is me taking the show's writing at face value/Watsonianly, btw. Yeah she doesn't want to possibly get herself accused of kinslaying...however, if Rhaenrya truly wishes to protect Baela and Rhaena's hold over Driftmark without the greens breathing down their neck and therefore undermining that rule...if that is her true primary objective...take one for the "team".

Because her primary objective is certainly not to "protect the realm" when she kills thousands of smallfolk instead of sitting in her room as a hostage and allowing the greens to try to pressure Rhaenyra to give up.

Anyway, she shouldn't have even stayed behind with her grandkids both gone back in episode 8. she's merely there so they can do that substance-less spectacle of a last moment in epi 8.

[allyriadayne]

Why did Lyonel allowed the affair between Harwin and Rhaenyra to go on for so long? After Jace came out looking like that why didn't he just sent Harwin back to Harrenhal and found him a wife? I know it was for plot reasons but the conversation they have in episode 6 feels like something that would have happend sooner imo.

this is something i've wondered a lot myself tbh but i don't know if i've reached a conclusion i'm satisfied with. like you i also think that conversation was LONG overdue. it's something lyonel should've said way before dark haired baby #3. here it is: lyonel did not know for sure until the fight that harwin was the father. let me walk you thru it.

i'm going to be a bit lenient here and say that when jace was born nobody raised many suspicions. he must have born more or less a year after the wedding, going by his age in ep 6, so most people must have thought he was conceived during the wedding night. like in the books, the dark hair could've been attributed to laenor's baratheon heritage or rhaenyra's arryn family. a coincidence. i don't think people were pointing fingers yet nor alicent had a full-fledged gossip campaign yet. i also don't think rhaenyra let many people into her circle to gawp at the baby (i know the show forgot but i didn't forget rhaenyra's complicated relationship to motherhood!!) or strolled with him in her arms for people to see (i hc she didn't see much of jace either and was pretty hands off at first). this + the voluntary concealment of the baby that most probably was born with dark hair could have meant lyonel didn't see jace much nor much of his appearance was talked about.

luke is born around two years after jace when rhaenyra is in a much better place mentally. by this time, when luke is presented at court lyonel must have inspected and connected some dots. i don't think he /really/ thought it was harwin, only that another dark haired baby was unlikely to come from two silver haired people. so maybe rhaenyra was cheating on laenor but with whom? and what would the velaryons do about it? alicent must have thought along these lines too and establish the rumor of the paternity of the children. two is too much of a coincidence.

now, if the show had the same timeline as the book and joffrey was born two or three years later i would say it actually makes sense with lyonel's conversation with harwin. he finally learned the truth when harwin reacted so violently to criston's trash talk, harwin never reacts like that if someone is insulting /him/ but his family is another thing. BUT the show has this absurd age gap between luke and joff. i honestly don't think that after seeing harwin day in and day out behind the princess and guarding the children when they could be on their own that lyonel would not connect even more dots. esp if the greens were already throwing harwin under the bus. there must have been a moment where he thought "well, what if?".

just...for seven years he didn't say anything. it's weird. the reason i'm thinking could be that he simply didn't want to accept it (like tywin about the twincest). to lyonel, harwin is the perfect son and the one who would realize all of lyonel's ambitions maybe he didn't want to marr his son's image when all he had left after harwin was just larys. the actual reason you said it above! it's for plot reasons. the strongs had to have a conversation where it'd be clear why they are going back to harrenhal for larys to kill. but it's a bit frustrating the watsonian answer is so vague and rests on lyonel being delusional when to me he's very pragmatic and sensible. i guess he loved harwin too much to do what was right, or to draw attention to an issue that could very well kill harwin and brought the family low like ser lucamore the lusty did some decades before.

i've said before that when joff is born and harwin fights criston, lyonel understands their time is running out. i think he does all he can to save both harwin's life and the family reputation. there's nothing he can do for the children, but he at least can begin to put out the flames by leaving harwin away from court and resign in a years time or until he could find a real excuse for viserys. it's the first time he's seen harwin as less than perfect and it's understandable he wouldn't want to bring up the issue before, even to the detriment of the real. to me, it's the first time lyonel's put his family before the house's standing.

[opinions-about-tiaras]

I did. I believe I was acting in that thread! I would have to put my position there being as "I agree, but it's somewhat overblown."

I wouldn't even call it a bad piece of worldbuilding in the context of the TV universe, where so much of what was done is simply unknown and has to be assumed to more or less parallel the books. My position on it is that it's bad because it unnecessarily muddles up Game of Thrones; it tries to shoehorn in the prophecy from ASOIAF that GoT cut out, and that doesn't... really work. It could work if HotD were airing FIRST. The worldbuilding coheres; Daenerys doesn't need to know there's a prophecy to fulfill it, but narratively its a blind alley.

That said, I take your point; this would count as an instance of them bringing up a thing, gesturing at its importance, and then dropping it. If that sort of thing really, REALLY sticks in your craw aesthetically, then HotD may not be for you, although "did it twice, neither in a way that particularly is impactful on the central narrative" isn't hugely bad writing in my eyes in a series that's otherwise structurally very sound. (The actual narrative content aside, HotD has been impressing me with its sound structural underpinnings, the way they pace episodes and the seasons and get things to cohere rather than simply careening around from one set-piece to the next.)

Laenor running away is... it's not POINTLESS, per se, but it may have been the weak option. It doesn't really do anything that having Daemon murder him doesn't, and the show already established that Daemon is absolutely willing to murder an inconvenient spouse. I will be one hundred percent honest; part of the reason I'm okay with it is how utterly delighted I was by the reveal. They set up this elaborate set-piece that makes it look like Daemon has suborned Qarl, not only suborned Qarl, but is going to kill Qarl to tie up all loose ends... and then, nope! It was all an Ocean's 11 style misdirection, done in a way that played on our preconceptions about how these things turn out in this universe. I laughed out of nothing more than joy in the craft displayed.

Pure aesthetics do not necessarily narratively justify choices with profound narrative consequences, of course. But you know, I personally am willing to chalk this one up to "they invested an awful lot of effort into making us like Laenor, into making him a real, vividly drawn character who we had affection for, and if he has to shuffle off stage left because they're unwilling to change the books so far as to keep him around, I am content with the relatively harmless choice to have him live, even if it is pointless and it would have fit the world better to have Daemon commit yet another murder so he could stick his dick in yet another hot young relative."

I absolutely get how peoples mileage varies here, though. I'll defend it as a worldbuilding decision; Planetos is huge, it isn't an information society, its entirely possible to vanish into Essos and not be seen again. It doesn't break the setting. But as a narrative choice... yeah, it might be questionable.

I'm not sure where you're getting Criston Cole "finishing the job" from. What job? Like everyone else, Criston believes Laenor to be dead.

As you may (or may not) be aware, HotD has the Blacks fake Laenor's death, so he can run off and be his own man in Essos. Safe to say he does not bring Seamoke. What's your take on whether a dragon can be ridden if their owner "foresakes" them in such a fashion? I'm kind of imagining there is some psychic bond between them, so as long as Laenor is alive, Seasmoke can't be claimed by anyone else.

I wasn’t aware that they did that to Laenor. At first blush, that sounds pointless, raising a whole host of potential wrinkles that could happen later which are almost certainly to be brushed under the rug and forgotten about. Sounds a lot like House of the Dragon, to be honest. Why are people suggesting that I’d like this series when they keep doing this to the worldbuilding?

We never really see what happens when a dragon is essentially abandoned for an extended period of time. Balerion was de facto abandoned by Viserys who never flew him again, but Balerion was also incredibly old and barely had the strength, so there’s a lot of mitigating factors in Balerion specifically. We know that dragons bonded with a rider do not like other riders on their back, as young Joffrey learned when attempting to ride his mother’s dragon, but there isn’t a long period of time where the dragon and rider and separated but the rider remains alive. We do see some dragons go wild after the death of their riders, like Silverwing, but this seems like a relatively unique set of circumstances. Seasmoke is supposed to be ridden by Addam Velaryon, who is probably Laenor’s half-brother, which might make taming him easier or it might not. We simply don’t have enough information.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King